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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 09:02:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open.
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My experience also is that this is very true. It's somethine to be very aware of and watch and learn from.
I can understand what you're saying, but it is not always true. It may be for both of you, in which case you shouldn't talk about your experiences.
But attachment comes from holding on to things, not talking about them, at least for me. It is the level of ego involved when talking that determines if you are strengthening attachment or not. For instance, if somebody quoted me and said I am completely wrong and my words prove that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. How do I feel about that? This would bring out my level of attachment.
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Christi, I have experienced the witness state quite differently than what you describe. My experience is that I split into two entities, and watch myself as if I am somebody else. Once I scared myself because I was alone, but an involuntary movement of my body made me feel like I was very close to somebody else.
Now I am interested - here's my extension to the poll questions to others who have experienced the witness state:
Did you feel like you were another entity separate from your body? |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 21 2009 09:17:49 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 11:30:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open.
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My experience also is that this is very true. It's somethine to be very aware of and watch and learn from.
I can understand what you're saying, but it is not always true. It may be for both of you, in which case you shouldn't talk about your experiences.
But attachment comes from holding on to things, not talking about them, at least for me. It is the level of ego involved when talking that determines if you are strengthening attachment or not. For instance, if somebody quoted me and said I am completely wrong and my words prove that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. How do I feel about that? This would bring out my level of attachment.
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Christi, I have experienced the witness state quite differently than what you describe. My experience is that I split into two entities, and watch myself as if I am somebody else. Once I scared myself because I was alone, but an involuntary movement of my body made me feel like I was very close to somebody else.
Now I am interested - here's my extension to the poll questions to others who have experienced the witness state:
Did you feel like you were another entity separate from your body?
I merely offer you the wisdom of the realized masters who achieved enlightenment, like the yogi Milarepa. For example, it was true for him. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 11:56:38 AM
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quote:
Christi, I have experienced the witness state quite differently than what you describe. My experience is that I split into two entities, and watch myself as if I am somebody else. Once I scared myself because I was alone, but an involuntary movement of my body made me feel like I was very close to somebody else.
Do you mean you were outside of your body, watching your body?
Christi |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 12:45:47 PM
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Christi, thank you for your kind reply to Gumpi - I could only have said it much worse.
Gumpi, these experiences are subjective, as you say. Indeed, THAT is the whole point. Please excuse my giving advice here, but you might find it helpful to forget about what other people's subjective experiences are (blue stars, lower pulse rate, etc.) and really focus in 100% on your OWN subjective experience. You may find it to be the only place where you will find actual truth.
Konchok Ösel Dorje, your observation holds much truth, but I would suggest that the truth of it is relative to the situation. Here, we are in satsang - granted, it might seem like satsang-lite (given the forum title of "Satsang Cafe"), and yet I have seen some very REAL satsang going on here.
Also, we might consider the possibility that attachment to one's realizations is every bit an attachment. To whom, to what, does it matter if "later, realization can become more difficult"?
Nevertheless, I do agree with you in the main. It's important not to advertise attainments, because they will be cheapened (if they are real in the first place, which is increasingly unlikely in direct proportion to the desire to advertise them). However, there is a crucial line between advertising and sharing in satsang which everyone will sense within themselves, as they play on either side of the line. And hence, even this can be an element in the finding (and feeling out) of one's way.
By the way, welcome to the forum!! (even if I'm a very junior member here and my welcome means very little... ). |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 1:29:34 PM
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1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Those moments of witness state I've experienced has been absolutely mind-blowing... beyond everything the mind can ever imagine. When I refer to the "witness state" I mean a state of absolute non-location of the "I" or "eye" witnessing. There's nobody there. There's no sensation of feeling physically grounded in the body, because Oneness is, and the body is not "personally mine" anylonger, nor separated from anything else, never has been, never will be. The I/eye is located everywhere, and it is recognizing itself as itself everywhere. There's an instant falling in love with every Form, since every Form is a self-recognition of the Love that Is as itself. Lover, loving and the beloved are One. The eye is necessarily there to be able to witness the wonder of Existence! Everything is sensed as a mirroring, mirrors on mirrors on mirrors - endlessly, and everything is ALIVE - everything is sensed to be conscious - even physical matter and air is conscious of itself. Along with it, there's an immediate knowing of what's Real and not Real, and everything, absolutely EVERYTHING (sound, vibration, light, everything that has form) is instantly recognized to be unreal - a dream, a temporary creation of beautiful scenery. What was believed to be the physical outside real world is also seen as inside instead of outside, so inside and outside looses its meaning totally. The beauty of being/witnessing like that was unfathomable. The bubbling joy, awe and wonder was overwhelming. What once was believed to be a person was nowhere to be found, but seen as a total temporary fake construction of beliefs in the realm of time and space, where so called lifes and deaths occurred. The dream was seen as a joke, since the qualities of being eternal and infinte was so dominant and self-evident that everything else just vanished. Death lost its meaning in a split of a second. The whole enchilada was seen as a gigantic joke!!! Laughed and laughed and laughed. There was a witnessing of the whole Earth and evolution of humanity, and the karmic wheel in action, passing by in One Moment. Location of the eye obviously beyond earth and beyond time. A personal life in existence is but a wink of an eye! This little personal life of "mine" was seen as so ridiculous I laughed my guts out! Witnessing for me is pulling the plug out, logging out from Matrix, getting Real, seeing through the illusion, seeing the world as it IS - transparent and unreal as a dream.
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No, not to that level. I can go to the level of watching this body and mind do what it does "automatically" and have a sense of having nothing whatsoever to do with it, or have any control over it, being beyond the body, thoughts and emotions, yet being "with" the body, since the witnessing is all happening around the location of the body's nervous system. There's still separation in that semi-state of witnessing. I do not feel One with the fork on the plate, having it smiling back to me as "me" when in that semi-state of witnessing.
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
It only requires a shift in awareness, going first through whole body awareness, passing beyond the body, into the space/stillness which permeates everything.
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
From your description, what I've described above might be classified as a peak experience, and then what I call the witness state would be a constant peak experience. Nowadays, when glimpses of that witness state comes (which they do quite seldom, and with longer and longer periods of closure in between), it is more like short "peak experiences", more quickly fading, leaving but a memory of what that openness and expansion is like.
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No.
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 1:54:31 PM
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This is all so incredibly beautiful - to read how very differently Totality finds its reflection in each unique facet of itself. But how else could it be? How could infinite possibility create only one way to reflect itself!?
(please excuse these little philosophical mutterings!!!)
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 2:22:03 PM
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My experience of the witness state is more like Christi’s. There is no concept or experience of another entity or body. Not like Ether described as going to bump up against another physical thing.
For me, there is only awareness watching all, but “I” still have a seeming separateness in mind/awareness from the witness. And it can happen anywhere and anytime---when driving, walking---anytime. "I" am aware of the witness' presence.
When meditating, there has been a different state of just awareness and no thought. It is almost as if “I” am merged with the witness or there is only the witness at that point, with no separate “I”. Just awareness, just calm, just pure existence. Just what is.
I believe it is possible when one’s practices are strong for a long time that there will be periods during wakefulness where the witness is present for extended periods.
And following this, during wakefulness there will be periods when this merging of witness and the “I” occur. It just becomes your state of being.
Gumpi, you said in one of your posts that you weren’t meditating regularly. If I could wish one thing for you it would be that you pick up the practice of meditation daily, regularly, before breakfast, when the world is still quiet, and before dinner. Every day. I hope that doesn't sound offensive. I just truly wish you could find the peace and serenity that can come with consistent practices. But then, that is just my chosen path and we all have our own paths to follow.
sending love and light to all,
Kathy
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 3:44:56 PM
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Hi Kathy,
I am taking up meditation regularly now. I am interested in this witness state because i am terrified of death.
Sometimes the music in my head is too over-powering that it is difficult to focus on the sound of the mantra but i am getting there by and by. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 4:08:47 PM
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Hello Gumpi.
"Sometimes the music in my head is too over-powering that it is difficult to focus on the sound of the mantra but i am getting there by and by"
When you are "lost" in toughts with no mantra,It is is purification and DM too.Favour the mantra always, very softly and slowly.Thats the process,and with time toughts become less in DM time (and in life).
good luck. |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 21 2009 4:20:10 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 5:00:11 PM
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Posted by Ether:quote:
quote:Originally posted by Sparkle
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open.
-----------------------
My experience also is that this is very true. It's somethine to be very aware of and watch and learn from.
I can understand what you're saying, but it is not always true. It may be for both of you, in which case you shouldn't talk about your experiences.
But attachment comes from holding on to things, not talking about them, at least for me. It is the level of ego involved when talking that determines if you are strengthening attachment or not. For instance, if somebody quoted me and said I am completely wrong and my words prove that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. How do I feel about that? This would bring out my level of attachment.
Actually Ether, I was thinking more of fresh experiences that have not had a chance to be properly integrated and established. I find that if I start talking about them too soon and explaining them it seems to tangle them up in concepts and mental formations. This can diminish the experiencing and drown it in thoughts.
Some of these experiences and shifts are so tender and delicate I have to be careful with them and nurture them into strength.
I too very much agree that in order to truely receive something, it must be given away.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 7:35:10 PM
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OK Sparkle, now I understand what you are saying. These experiences are often beyond words, and putting them in words makes them much less. It is not about attachment then, it's about the mundane logical ego-mind trying to make sense of everything, which is impossible.
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[re: the witness state]
Christi wrote:
"Do you mean you were outside of your body, watching your body?"
Yes, but not in astral projection. I was in my body and outside it at the same time. it seemed perfectly natural observing, then when my body "sniffed", it scared me out of it because i felt it was me, and at the same time felt it was somebody else very close to me.
It was sort of an echo effect. First i sniffed, then I watched myself sniff, then it was somebody else sniffing, all in quick succession. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 21 2009 7:56:25 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 8:16:14 PM
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| Surely if you can focus on one thought only then the body becomes much less tangible? That is my experience. It is a way of neutralising bodily pain. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 8:48:29 PM
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1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
yes
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure? watch tv
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes.
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
yes
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure? masturbation |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 02:39:23 AM
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brother neil, thank you for the useful suggestions. I'm willing to try most things at least once
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
The possibility arises, followed by an arising intention to step aside and allow. The intention is, in effect, unintentional.
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
No
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Again, the possibility arises, followed by an arising intention which constitutes a deeper surrender. The accompanying witnessing is proportionally deeper.
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
No
I see that my questions were poorly posed - but I tried to opt for simplicity... |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 05:24:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
No, no, no, no, no and no.
What a good advertisement for AYP i am!!
Ah well, laughter is the best medicine for me.
I'm with you.......I don't even know what the witness state or peak experience is and no one seems to be able to describe it so I have to think it indicates a pure emotion like Love. As they say in the Matrix 'No one can tell you what (insert approriate emotion) is, you just know it, balls to bones'. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 06:45:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Gumpi,
quote:
Peter, i wouldn't say i am a hyper thinker. My mind can get very calm and i don't indulge in day dreaming when i meditate. it is very easy for me to ignore thoughts as they arise. But a witness state? Nope. These things are so subjective i wouldn't understand what other people are talking about anyway.
But i am not a regular meditator.
The witness state is simply a state of mind where you are conscious of yourself observing things. It's really not that subtle, or complicated. Thoughts can be there, or sensations, or feelings, But these things are seen simply as objects arising in consciousness, whilst you are aware that you are not the objects, but are the one who is watching them.
Thoughts can still be present when inner silence is cultivated. It comes when we begin to notice the silence that surrounds everything, including sounds and thoughts.
If thoughts are not there, then that is the thoughtless state, which can arise in the witness state. It is a kind of deepening of inner silence, as the thought process begins to slow down and suspend temporarily. It is very peaceful and calm and natural.
Christi
Maybe I have experienced this ? Last night we were all talking around the kitchen table and there was a moment when I sort of 'disappeared'. Now, sometimes I can go off into day dreaming states but this was different, it's as though I completely switched off and there was a feeling of warmth and total happiness and that was all.
The thing is, everyone noticed , it was almost as though they understood that 'state' they just smiled and said 'looks like you went off for a moment and it looked like you were in a very happy place'. in a sense I was in a happy place but without being directly aware of it........if that makes any real sense. I can still feel it ! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 07:22:55 AM
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Hi Ether,
quote:
Christi wrote:
"Do you mean you were outside of your body, watching your body?"
Yes, but not in astral projection. I was in my body and outside it at the same time. it seemed perfectly natural observing, then when my body "sniffed", it scared me out of it because i felt it was me, and at the same time felt it was somebody else very close to me.
It was sort of an echo effect. First i sniffed, then I watched myself sniff, then it was somebody else sniffing, all in quick succession.
O.k. I think I know what you are getting at. The experience of the witness state can change over time. It may go something like this:
1. The appearance that there are two selves, one which is watching (the subject) and the other self which is acting in the world and connected to the body/ thoughts/ feelings etc. At this stage there is still a world "out there" as opposed to the subjective experience "in here".
2. Seeing that the witness (consciousness) is unbounded, and limitless and that the body and the apparent self exist within it. At this stage the apparent self is still seen as separate from the rest of the world.
3. Seeing that the witness is unbounded and that everything exists within consciousness in a unified field of existence. Boundaries between things become transparent and the apparent self is no longer seen as being separate from all things. At this stage there is still separation between consciousness (the witness) and the manifest universe (the world of things).
4. Seeing that all things are not separate from consciousness but are in fact manifestations of that. Everywhere we look we see only the face of God, and we are that face. This stage is technically no longer a witness stage because the subject has merged with the object, so there is nothing to witness. The witness state is therefore something that is cultivated in order that it can be transcended. Luckily I don't have to describe this last stage because emc did a much better job of it above than I ever could:
quote:
Those moments of witness state I've experienced has been absolutely mind-blowing... beyond everything the mind can ever imagine. When I refer to the "witness state" I mean a state of absolute non-location of the "I" or "eye" witnessing. There's nobody there. There's no sensation of feeling physically grounded in the body, because Oneness is, and the body is not "personally mine" anylonger, nor separated from anything else, never has been, never will be. The I/eye is located everywhere, and it is recognizing itself as itself everywhere. There's an instant falling in love with every Form, since every Form is a self-recognition of the Love that Is as itself. Lover, loving and the beloved are One. The eye is necessarily there to be able to witness the wonder of Existence! Everything is sensed as a mirroring, mirrors on mirrors on mirrors - endlessly, and everything is ALIVE - everything is sensed to be conscious - even physical matter and air is conscious of itself. Along with it, there's an immediate knowing of what's Real and not Real, and everything, absolutely EVERYTHING (sound, vibration, light, everything that has form) is instantly recognized to be unreal - a dream, a temporary creation of beautiful scenery. What was believed to be the physical outside real world is also seen as inside instead of outside, so inside and outside looses its meaning totally. The beauty of being/witnessing like that was unfathomable. The bubbling joy, awe and wonder was overwhelming. What once was believed to be a person was nowhere to be found, but seen as a total temporary fake construction of beliefs in the realm of time and space, where so called lifes and deaths occurred. The dream was seen as a joke, since the qualities of being eternal and infinte was so dominant and self-evident that everything else just vanished. Death lost its meaning in a split of a second. The whole enchilada was seen as a gigantic joke!!! Laughed and laughed and laughed. There was a witnessing of the whole Earth and evolution of humanity, and the karmic wheel in action, passing by in One Moment.
Thanks emc.
Christi
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 3:04:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter
brother neil, thank you for the useful suggestions. I'm willing to try most things at least once
Mr. Peter, somehow I get the feeling you have used those techniques a few times ;) |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 3:42:33 PM
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hi Sparkle; Peter and all,
quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
What I've recognised myself as experiencing over the last couple of years is what I sometimes call life streaming through me. There are no thoughts and generally my eyes are open without particular focus, but I can be going about my business as normal. There is no room for thoughts, as soon as thinking starts I am out of it. Yet, the experiencing is witnessed - HOW - well as I understand it I am going in and out of someting, like no thought and then a thought (but not thinking, if you know what I mean). This is the only way I can understand it because otherwise it would be unconscious.
i am going through this right now you may say during normal waking hours and it just is in the here and now there are no thoughts no past no future just a presence in the now and of course i am doing all my duties , i believe in surrender in action; actually being in action makes me more aware and stable in the now and fruitful rather than dosing around and day dreaming and worrying...
but it seems obvious that everything changes, and the best way to deal with it is to surrender.
about the poll brother Peter i would answer you with a yes to all your questions if i am going with the flow of your definitions.
but if i am going with the flow of how things are going on with me i really can't give an obvious answer for any of your questions for i really don't know how to answer them, bcz what i thought once of being the state of witness; peak experiences; samadhi... have all changed in time even what i thought was i changed.
peak experiences or new states of awareness will become smthg normal after 3 to 4 days or a starter for smthg new to come.
as Yogani puts it: let go and let God.
light and love,
Ananda |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 4:24:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
I merely offer you the wisdom of the realized masters who achieved enlightenment, like the yogi Milarepa. For example, it was true for him.
It was not true for countless other masters such as Dogen, Ramana maharishi, Paramhansa Yogananda and most notably the Buddha himself. Not talking honestly about enlightenment and experiences with enlightenment leads to myths about what it actually is and to problems in knowing what people actually are able to teach. Daniel Ingram writes very well about this:
http://interactivebuddha.com/about.shtml
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.co...e+Big+Issues |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 6:21:58 PM
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Thank you for this. I feel exactly the same. This rule has been misunderstood and it is a pity. Because of this rule there are many who go to monks and nuns and can't get a straight answer and therefore walk away without the benefit of guidance they need.
Too much talking is bad no matter what the subject. But talk about the real Path is the only thing in my opinion worth uttering. 
Just my 2cents worth.
Love to all,
Jill
quote:
Originally posted by markern
It was not true for countless other masters such as Dogen, Ramana maharishi, Paramhansa Yogananda and most notably the Buddha himself. Not talking honestly about enlightenment and experiences with enlightenment leads to myths about what it actually is and to problems in knowing what people actually are able to teach. Daniel Ingram writes very well about this:
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2009 : 7:22:22 PM
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personally I have found talking too much about certain experiences can lead to issues. If you talk about them and others may doubt you, if you are vunerable to their doubts this may set you back. if things are going well why not talk about the weather, a funny comedian, or something like that. If one is strong enough to be able to have these conversations and offer guidance to others, I believe that is great. Sometims things happen and we talk excitedly and this may drain the energy. take people who are "bipolar" I believe the most important time to manage themselves are when they are manic, otherwise we may stay up with little sleep, spend too much money, do things out of moral character, etc... and that puts us right back down. WHen the candle flame is strong hold it up for the world to see, your flame shines brightest when you show love, repsect, and happiness, something like that.
just some more thoughts
with love
brother neil |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2009 : 07:58:49 AM
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Hi All,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
I merely offer you the wisdom of the realized masters who achieved enlightenment, like the yogi Milarepa. For example, it was true for him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was not true for countless other masters such as Dogen, Ramana maharishi, Paramhansa Yogananda and most notably the Buddha himself. Not talking honestly about enlightenment and experiences with enlightenment leads to myths about what it actually is and to problems in knowing what people actually are able to teach. Daniel Ingram writes very well about this:
I wonder if it was even true for Milarepa? Did he never talk about his experiences? Ever?
The Buddha advised his monks and nuns not to speak about their spiritual experiences with anyone other than their teacher. This became one of the 227 training precepts. The reason for the precept was to discourage envy amongst the monastics, and also because it could lead to confusion, in the sense that someone would hear something, and think that they should be experiencing that as well, or they are not doing their own practice right.
It is an approach that can work well for people with a spiritual teacher who has a lot of time on their hands and is knowledgeable enough to be able to answer every question that may arise for each and every student. Personally, I don't know any teacher like that, but if someone does, then I don't see any problem there.
Recommending it as a training precept for everyone else, however, is not something I would advise. Many spiritual practitioners need advice and support, and we need to be able to share our experiences in order for that to happen (as Jill says).
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Mar 23 2009 08:14:36 AM |
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delta33
Canada
100 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2009 : 11:41:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open.
thank-you |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2009 : 5:37:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi All,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
I merely offer you the wisdom of the realized masters who achieved enlightenment, like the yogi Milarepa. For example, it was true for him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was not true for countless other masters such as Dogen, Ramana maharishi, Paramhansa Yogananda and most notably the Buddha himself. Not talking honestly about enlightenment and experiences with enlightenment leads to myths about what it actually is and to problems in knowing what people actually are able to teach. Daniel Ingram writes very well about this:
I wonder if it was even true for Milarepa? Did he never talk about his experiences? Ever?
The Buddha advised his monks and nuns not to speak about their spiritual experiences with anyone other than their teacher. This became one of the 227 training precepts. The reason for the precept was to discourage envy amongst the monastics, and also because it could lead to confusion, in the sense that someone would hear something, and think that they should be experiencing that as well, or they are not doing their own practice right.
It is an approach that can work well for people with a spiritual teacher who has a lot of time on their hands and is knowledgeable enough to be able to answer every question that may arise for each and every student. Personally, I don't know any teacher like that, but if someone does, then I don't see any problem there.
Recommending it as a training precept for everyone else, however, is not something I would advise. Many spiritual practitioners need advice and support, and we need to be able to share our experiences in order for that to happen (as Jill says).
Christi
Hi Christi, He did talk about his experiences once he attained buddhahood. He spoke about dharma. One of his teachings was not to talk about visions, realizations and dream experiences, except with the guru who can advise about what to do. Once you have attained no more learning one is a buddha, and should use the miracle power, prophecy and wisdom energy in any way it may benefit sentient beings. You are correct what you say about Vinaya.
You are not correct that there are no such spiritual teachers. They are rare though. I've luckily found one. How long he will be available is not certain. Students encounter that which is in accord with karma.
The reason why we don't talk about experiences goes beyond Vinaya. Wisdom is an energy that, for practitioners, is small like a candle flame. It is easily extinguished. It is about energy. A new meditator should conserve and keep the mind quiet.
I can accept that many need to voice their experiences, because this Satsangha is guru-like. I see problems here, because Yogani is the guru; he should chime in more. I see a lot of tail chasing going on. No offense please. He chimes in sometimes. I would like to see it more. His insights are quite good and he is close to the Dharma.
Probably, people need to ask him directly with their posts like "Yogani: Need advice" or something. Many who provide advice should be silent. I am one of those.
I bow to you...
Ösel |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Mar 24 2009 5:51:02 PM |
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