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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 06:26:54 AM
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Are you enlightened?
Just kidding...but I bet I got your attention! 
Actually, I do have some questions I want to pose here, and it would be great to get answers from everyone (including lurkers  ).
First, I'd like to define some terms I use in the questions:
"witness state" - By this I simply mean the sense of being able to watch yourself acting, talking, etc. In essence, being aware that you are aware. I understand that various traditions define the witness state in various ways, but for the purposes of this poll, I'd like to keep things simple and keep it closely defined as simply that state of watching yourself and being aware that you are doing so.
"willfully" - For now, let's not get into philosophical discourses on the nature of free will vs. predetermination etc. etc. We all have the sense of having intention, whether or not it is a fantasy. So by "willfully" I simply mean "having the sense of intentionally being able to do something".
"specific setting" - By this I mean a setting that you willfully create and that is not normally readily available 24/7.
"specific procedure" - By this is meant one or more relatively complex practices that you willfully undertake. These practices require a time commitment - that is to say, a setting aside of a specific period of time in order to engage in the practice. In other words, practices are things like sitting down to meditation, recalling a mantra and saying it, breathing in a certain fashion - whatever. By practice, I don't mean a split second remembrance - even if this could be considered a practice in certain ways. But it doesn't require a real time commitment in the way I'm defining it here.
"peak experience" - What I am referring to is a state of mind in which everything suddenly appears to "click together". Your surroundings may seem to brighten in some way, and everything feels just right and the way it's supposed to be. You might experience a profound sense of "one-ness" with everything. This experience may continue for a few seconds, hours or days, whatever. For the purposes of this poll, we can consider any duration of this experience a peak experience. For the time being, let's not get into weighty discussions about whether or not the experience is "real" or "fantasy" or just a form of "self-hypnosis" or the result of random hormonal/neuronal firing or Buddha-mind or anything else. If you've had the experience (real or fantasy), you will know what I'm referring to. If not, then, well... you won't...
About answering: simple yes or no answers will be plenty adequate for the time being - we can discuss the results and share more after a day or so of replies. Also, there are no right or wrong answers here, so please try to feel comfortable with whatever your own answers are without comparing yourself (either negatively or positively) to anyone else. And finally, if you really prefer not to share publicly your answers, then if you like you can send them to me privately at pcraw at lmnt5.com. So, on to the questions:
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure? |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 09:41:23 AM
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1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes.
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No.
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure? |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 09:57:00 AM
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1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 10:26:16 AM
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Hi Peter....Great topic...
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Yes
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
It requires complete surrender.
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
No
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
Love,
Carson |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 11:55:02 AM
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Hi Carson,
Would you characterize your complete surrender as a procedure the way I've defined it? Or is it a kind of momentary, blink-of-the-eye remembering, or something like that?
(Glad you like the topic - and thanks for reply - and also thanks to you Jo-self and YIL! I know I'm asking people to stick out their necks here...  )
Also, if I've been unclear about any of the definitions, let me know and I'll try to clarify some more.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 12:05:32 PM
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Interesting questions Peter , to me the witness and the peak are the same, at the moment anyway - everything could change tomorrow.
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Yes
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
To be reasonably balanced at the time
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Yes
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
To be reasonably balanced at the time |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 1:58:35 PM
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Hi Sparkle,
Thanks for your reply! I probably haven't been clear enough. Peak experience as I'm using it here refers to an experience that would be felt as significantly more powerful and meaningful than the witness state. Peak might be characterized especially by a powerful feeling of connectedness. Witness, on the other hand, might be characterized by a fairly subtle feeling of disconnection - you watching yourself, especially in action. You see yourself doing an action, while you (or a "part" of you) senses itself as being separate from that action, simply watching.
My definition of witness here is a step down from how it is used by Yogani; from the AYP lessons we understand that the witness is the inner silence accessed through deep meditation. What I'm talking about could be seen as a precedent to that witness state/inner silence - a sort of necessary pre-condition or less developed state.
Speaking in AYP terms, a peak experience could be understood as a "spurt" of ecstatic conductivity...
Does that help any to clarify?
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Edited by - Peter on Mar 18 2009 2:04:13 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 2:31:27 PM
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Hi Peter
Yes, thanks for the clarification. the witness state has changed for me a lot in the way I experience it over the years.
What I've recognised myself as experiencing over the last couple of years is what I sometimes call life streaming through me. There are no thoughts and generally my eyes are open without particular focus, but I can be going about my business as normal. There is no room for thoughts, as soon as thinking starts I am out of it. Yet, the experiencing is witnessed - HOW - well as I understand it I am going in and out of someting, like no thought and then a thought (but not thinking, if you know what I mean). This is the only way I can understand it because otherwise it would be unconscious.
Then recently, instead of me experiencing the streaming of life through me I became the streaming itself and there was no me as such, and yet I can see this HOW, in the same way as above, in my view.
As for peak experiences, there have been thousands but one permanent one 28 years ago. So much has been integrated since then that I am only realising the integration in terms of understanding the nature of that experience.
As for kundalini, I don't have it and according to AYP I can't become enlightened untill I go through that. I'm not interested in being enlightened, never gave it much thought, I am interested in not suffering anymore. I don't believe kundalini is necessary for that to occur and I know people who I would consider to be fairly enlightened and they don't have awakened kundalini - on the other hand I know many with awakened kundalini who would not be particularly awake in my view - but that's just my take on it fwiw.
Maybe some day my kundalini will awaken with a bang and I will realise I've been talking horses**t
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Edited by - Sparkle on Mar 18 2009 2:33:36 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 2:42:30 PM
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| May I ask why you are asking these questions the way you do? Are you going to use it for something or is it for your own interest? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 2:53:59 PM
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Namaste Peter...
quote:
Originally posted by Peter
Would you characterize your complete surrender as a procedure the way I've defined it? Or is it a kind of momentary, blink-of-the-eye remembering, or something like that?
Both actually. It is a procedure in that there is a conscious decision to surrender, but this can be catalyzed by a one second remembering that surrender is an option. Often I will find myself reacting instinctually to a situation the way I would have in the past, and then I will have a moment of "realization" that I can just surrender to the situation itself and then the "witness" shows up. And stays at least for a while. Make sense?
Love,
Carson |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 3:35:47 PM
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| When you talk about the witness state do you mean the thoughtless state? And when you believe you are in that state are you talking about having no thoughts in the form of monkey mind sub-vocal self-chatter or are you actually saying you have absolutely no thoughts at all? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2009 : 7:12:16 PM
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Hi Peter
The way you define the questions makes it impossible here to answer them with a "yes" or "no".......
quote:
Peak experience as I'm using it here refers to an experience that would be felt as significantly more powerful and meaningful than the witness state.
Here......the witness state and the peak experience are completely identical. Yet....noone witnesses.....(therefore "willfully" loses its meaning) and it is not a peak. Louis describes it well....the streaming......when being the streaming....as well as the witnessing......yet even this is observed and known by something wordless....
And the balance.....is not "willfully established"......it is just an allowing......
......in this.......the word connectedness loses its meaning here....since the witnessing reveals the fact of ...no number....
This fact is implicitly powerfully meaningful in and of itself.
I don't care about enlightenment either. Years back....it was such intense suffering to strive for that......
And even though the Kundalini is awake here.......it is the peace and relief of being noone....resting deeper and deeper in this freeing fact....that no matter how chaotic life seems....nothing can be added....or taken away from.....this simple.....profound.....sacred fact.
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 07:49:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
May I ask why you are asking these questions the way you do? Are you going to use it for something or is it for your own interest?
Thank you emc for cutting to the quick. I have a number of motivations:
1) because it's a topic I'm personally interested in,
2) because it's a topic I thought some others might be interested in,
3) and because, well, that's what the rest of this post is about.
In what is a very interesting coincidence, at nearly the same moment yesterday as I was busily posting the initial post above, Yogani posted a very similar discussion at http://www.aypsite.org/318.html - though at first sight the two postings might seem quite dissimilar. One reason for this dissimilarity is that my posting draws more from the tradition of jhana, while Yogani's is more based in bhakti, or more simply put, mine from the mind, his from the heart. There can be value to each approach.
So. Imagine that you are suddenly dropped onto the planet Io, somewhere in the Horse-Head Nebulae. Beautiful planet, lots of trees, grass, birds singing and the loveliest sweet air to breath, with subtle scents of flowers and honey.
Wandering around, you come upon a town of Ionians. Nice people, greet you hospitably, you feel at home. Soon after you arrive, you notice there is a pavilion in the center of town - big sign outside announces it as the Breathing Pavilion. Inside you find a number of booths, and the Ionians are milling about, going from booth to booth. And at each booth there sits what you soon learn is called a Master Breather.
"What's the deal?" you ask one of the Ionians.
"We're here to learn how to breath," comes the reply.
You soon find out that most Ionians don't believe they are breathing. They have learned that in order to breath you must have lungs, and since you can't directly see whether or not you (or anyone else for that matter) has lungs, it's all become a very mysterious thing, this thing called breathing.
Along come the Master Breathers. One sets up shop and the Ionians line up.
"Yes, you've got lungs," he says to the first. "Ten ioros please."
"No, you lack lungs," he says to the second and hands over a pamphlet with various instructions for how to develop lungs. "Ten ioros please."
And so on and so forth.
Another Master Breather sets up shop and the Ionians line up. To each one, he gives a complicated-looking contraption that they need to strap onto their heads.
And to each one "Fifteen ioros please."
Yet another one has what looks to be an adoring group of Ionians sitting around at her feet sending doe-eyed loving looks her way. This Master Breather doesn't ask for any ioros, but just talks and talks.
And you see little groups of Ionians pointing at other groups and whispering among themselves - those carrying pamphlets, those with contraptions, those with doe-eyed looks - all whispering...
You find yourself wanting to shout out in the middle of the pavilion, "But you're all breathing just fine! You've got lungs already! What's the big deal all about?"
You step outside for a breath of fresh air, and there you meet a couple of Ionians standing in the square. One of them, a sharp-eyed fellow, introduces himself as Gio.
"You know, all this breathing and lung stuff - you know, I'm not fooled. It's all just self-hypnosis and fantasy. They just believe they're breathing. There's no scientific proof."
The other Ionian, a woman with a lovely voice named Kio, says, "Breathing, lungs, it's all the same - I just breath and enjoy it and don't care about all this lung-searching anymore."
So the main point of my little "poll"? To suggest along with Yogani - though in a very different way - that we each already have all the equipment in place and enlightenment is already happening. Indeed, it already has. There is no-one to pay either money or love for this simple fact. We needn't deep down wonder who is or who isn't, whether we are or we aren't. We all are already.
Oh sure, there is work that can be done. Our breath can make music ever more lovely, while we join in with the universal song. But the main work has already been done - for us - just by the simple act of our having been born.
_/\_ |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 10:23:01 AM
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| Thank you for answering, Peter, and thank you for opening the topic! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 11:52:22 AM
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Hi Peter,
Great story.
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Yes
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
Yes
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
Yes
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
Yes
Christi |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 12:15:14 PM
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No, no, no, no, no and no.
What a good advertisement for AYP i am!!
Ah well, laughter is the best medicine for me. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 12:36:09 PM
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quote:
Interesting questions Peter, to me the witness and the peak are the same, at the moment anyway - everything could change tomorrow.
For me peak experiences are definitely different from the witness stage. Actually I believe I only had one meaningful peak experience and, in my case, it lasted several months, before it was gone like it came. *puff* Beautiful while it lasted though...
But it was so real and so powerful that indeed it was as if another state of being. It started with a trauma and after some days a thought, and all my perception changed. I flowed with life, I felt elevated, I felt connected and flowing with the river of life, thoughts just snapped into place whenever a disturbance arised. In a word: flow with no resistance. Such bliss.
That makes me believe in extraordinary capabilities and our infinite array of conscioussness states. I longed for that since then (been many years since) but, no matter what I do, it does not come back, hence me saying it is not somehting that can be willfully accomplished. Although deep down something tells me it is a state of being and that I know how to get there relaly, if I really want to...probably have to get the mind out of the way and really listen carefully for th every subtle "voices" inside of me...
The witnessing is much more delicate and subtle, less "dramatic" and is something I am only now starting, very slowly, to experience. I am even not sure yet if I can experience it or not...need more time and practice... |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2009 : 11:18:15 PM
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1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Don't know if the question is accurately formulated, but that's the problem of words anyway, so the pointer is clear --> yes
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
no, only what you would call rememberance or "it is happening with more or less intensitiy"
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
after rememberance or better said, the inner call to stop comes: being still and silent brings it on
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
yes, "best" one being only ~3-4 seconds.. the contrast of before and after was insane
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
no, not directly
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
what works is doing "willfully" some intense pranayama with breath suspension + bandhas and longer periods of concentration on whatever.. in short,everything that brings the energy to strong movements within the spinal nerve... the effects are always delayed and peak after about 3-6 hours..
Your definitions in general are fine, except for the witness. It's very hard to describe, as witnessing happens all the time and this "knowing that you are witnessing" is somekind of gods grace in my perception. It's the game of energy pointing more to witnessing in some moments of the day than to other objects. But still it's very mysterious. |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2009 : 1:02:17 PM
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YIL - seems to me you're right on track. Don't rule out the possibility that the witness may gradually help make "peak experience" more readily accessible. As Katrine points out, you may find them ultimately inseparable and indeed identical.
Holy - thank you for helping in this attempt to conceptualize the "witness". As you point out, not so easy! I can understand why you say that witnessing happens all the time. It's the witnessing of the witness, perhaps, that seems to escape us... I might prefer the word "attention" for that standard level of witnessing that's happening all the time (of course, we may fall into forgetfulness of what we are attending to, and hence appear to be "inattentive" or not witnessing).
Gumpi - what's there to say? You're hopeless! Totally just kidding. Laughter is a most excellent elixir indeed!
Keep in mind there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different meditation-related practices. I suspect you haven't tried them all...
Not that I would suggest you do. However, there might be something in all those practices that could kick-start your particular bodymind towards experiencing a meditative state. If you're game, you can try this one at http://www.lmnt5.com/investigation.html. I was going to post it here, but it got too long, so I put it up on a web-page of its own. It's a good one for hyper-thinkers like us (yes, I'm one too!). Let me know if you try it out, and how you find it. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2009 : 6:20:12 PM
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Peter, i wouldn't say i am a hyper thinker. My mind can get very calm and i don't indulge in day dreaming when i meditate. it is very easy for me to ignore thoughts as they arise. But a witness state? Nope. These things are so subjective i wouldn't understand what other people are talking about anyway.
But i am not a regular meditator. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 01:01:41 AM
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| Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 02:40:54 AM
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1 yes
2 no
3 no
4 lots of times
5 no
6 no
About #1; it comes about as the opposite of willfullness or circumstances being set up.
And yes, I have been enlightened many times. I have gone through many transformations that have made my life lighter, as if someone else is carrying my burden for me.
I call this enlightenment, and it is a lasting condition, but never singular or final. It is varied and multiple, unending and always different, like life.
People who have never been enlightened describe it as something you achieve and stay there forever, like a college degree. It's not like that. It's more like a path. It has a beginning but no end, and great scenery, but you can stop, you can backtrack, etc. It's best to keep going. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 21 2009 03:02:33 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 04:24:11 AM
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interesting topic!
1. Have you ever experienced the witness state?
Yes,but there are different levels or degrees of witnessing
2. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
yes
3. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
yes
4. Have you ever had a peak experience?
Yes,but there are different levels or degrees of p.experiences.
5. If yes, does it seem to you that you can willfully bring it on?
no
6. If yes, does willfully bringing it on require a specific setting or procedure?
no
Aum.
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Edited by - miguel on Mar 21 2009 05:20:17 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 05:11:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Not a good idea to talk about realizations. Because they happen by virtue of non-attachment. Then by making announcement there is attachment. Later, realization can become more difficult. Wisdom energy is fragile when we are first walking the path. Like a candle outside in the open.
My experience also is that this is very true. It's somethine to be very aware of and watch and learn from.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 05:20:41 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
Peter, i wouldn't say i am a hyper thinker. My mind can get very calm and i don't indulge in day dreaming when i meditate. it is very easy for me to ignore thoughts as they arise. But a witness state? Nope. These things are so subjective i wouldn't understand what other people are talking about anyway.
But i am not a regular meditator.
The witness state is simply a state of mind where you are conscious of yourself observing things. It's really not that subtle, or complicated. Thoughts can be there, or sensations, or feelings, But these things are seen simply as objects arising in consciousness, whilst you are aware that you are not the objects, but are the one who is watching them.
Thoughts can still be present when inner silence is cultivated. It comes when we begin to notice the silence that surrounds everything, including sounds and thoughts.
If thoughts are not there, then that is the thoughtless state, which can arise in the witness state. It is a kind of deepening of inner silence, as the thought process begins to slow down and suspend temporarily. It is very peaceful and calm and natural.
Christi |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2009 : 08:52:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
No, no, no, no, no and no.
What a good advertisement for AYP i am!!
Ah well, laughter is the best medicine for me.
Gumpi, your answers are not really "no" on all counts, only one and four, if you read the whole question. You are not eligible to answer the others, so it should say something like "n/a" instead of "no". |
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Enlightenment Poll
