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yogibear
409 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 06:12:40 AM
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Hi emc,
quote:
Yogibear, thanks for your post! Made me feel happy that someone else had a similar description!
Yes, we are similar in this respect. My energy is not ecstatic, but it can be very pleasurable. It is good to know that this pleasure is on a gradient and that it will increase and refine with steady practice over time.
I don't know if you recall or not, but we had a conversation about this a long time ago and you helped me come up with the term pleasurable conductivity to describe what I experience, since you accurately pointed out that it didn't sound like what I was experiencing was ecstatic in nature. I couldn't disagree with you so that made me think about how I could better communicate what I experience and pleasurable seems to work pretty well as an intermediate term.
It is kind of like the term deep meditation. It doesn't really accurately describe what I am doing because, well, I just don't consider that my meditations are all that deep.  Plain old meditation is probably closer to what I do presently. However it does describe the purpose or goal of the practice quite well as does ecstatic conductivity.
I am looking forward to the day when I can truly refer to this conductivity as ecstatic and my meditations as deep. That is for sure.
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Feb 12 2009 06:14:20 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 07:57:02 AM
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Hi Yb,
Oh, did we? I don't have any memory worthy the name, so I wouldn't know. I read my old posts sometimes and don't recognize neither insights, wisdoms, formulations nor events...
I've found out that expectations of ecstacy is probably not realistic for everyone. I guess those who experience ecstacy are lucky. In another topic a proposed realized woman was shown in a youtube link, and she expressed it was rather "flat" and could not even agree to the word "joy" as an accurate description... Either she wasn't there yet, or it's time to drop those expectations... |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 11:36:15 PM
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Hi Ananda,
Re; your point about semen "rising" up the sushumna, I have read somewhere that it takes huge amounts of prana shakti to concentrate, "condense", to form even a drop of semen.This "process" is activated the moment you have sexual thoughts. This huge amount of prana , if directed "upward" through spiritual practices, rather than "downward", through sexual thoughts and "action", is preferable.
Krish |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 05:40:14 AM
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Hi Yogibear,
quote:
But I have read that the kundalini is different than the prana that enters the sushumna. They are two different things and sometimes they are mistaken for each other. When the prana in the body is no longer flowing in the ida and pingala, but instead, enters and flows thru the sushumna, by whatever means, this is what activates or frees or releases kundalini and allows her to travel up the sahashrara.
Possibly this is a bad piece of data; I don't know.
Yes, that's right. Before someone has awakened their kundalini they will have prana flowing in their bodies, and it will be flowing through all the nadis. This has to be the case otherwise they would be dead. But the volume and force of the flow is small, so small that they normally will not be aware of it.
Through spiritual practices (possibly including tantric practices) the flow of pranic energy gradually increases, purifying and expanding the nadis as it goes. Gradually the flow of prana through the sushumna nadi increases until it reaches a point when kundalini awakens. Kundalini is not different from prana, it is a word which describes a particular flow of prana, a bit like the word "torrent" describes a movement of water. The potential energy of the stored up prana in the pelvic region (both before and after the kundalini is awakened) is said to be kundalini, and the dynamics of the released energy which transforms the being after awakening is also kundalini. But the "stuff" which is being moved is prana.
Bramacharya stops the charge of prana in the kanda chakra from being constantly drained, causing the energy to move upward through the body, rather than outward through the sexual organs, or more acurately through the swadisthana chakra.
In my experience the ecstasy in the body came many years after my first kundalini awakening, and it changes all the time throughout the day. It is strongest in the mornings. Sometimes it is so intense that I cannot walk or speak. Sometimes it is felt throughout my body, and at other times it is stronger in certain parts, especially in my crown chakra. It gets more refined, and more sublime as I continue to practice.
Christi |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 07:56:54 AM
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Thanks Christi. Yes, awakening of Kundalini must be causing a torrent or "rush" of prana to flow up the sushumna.
Books on Shaktipath say that after Deeksha, one must discontinue other practices and just sit for "sadhana" and let Ma Kundalini take over. I am a bit confused now because, while I have received Deeksha, I don't feel any different( understand it can take a few days in some cases), though they say Kundalini starts working silently. Should I persist only with this and not do AYP ? The book I read also says doing other practices could complicate things and halt progress. Would be grateful for advice. Would Yogani like to comment, since he is such an advanced sadhak?
Krish |
Edited by - krcqimpro1 on Feb 13 2009 12:08:04 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 08:11:01 AM
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| I would say to wait however long you feel appropriate, then continue AYP practices. Twice daily practices is something you do forever. There is no point you reach where no effort should be needed anymore. That is the place where people already are before they begin spiritual aspirations. Many people are happy without any spiritual practices - it's a personal preference. |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 12:09:47 PM
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Thanks, Etherfish.
Krish |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 01:49:40 AM
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Hi Krish,
quote:
Thanks Christi. Yes, awakening of Kundalini must be causing a torrent or "rush" of prana to flow up the sushumna.
Books on Shaktipath say that after Deeksha, one must discontinue other practices and just sit for "sadhana" and let Ma Kundalini take over. I am a bit confused now because, while I have received Deeksha, I don't feel any different( understand it can take a few days in some cases), though they say Kundalini starts working silently. Should I persist only with this and not do AYP ? The book I read also says doing other practices could complicate things and halt progress. Would be grateful for advice. Would Yogani like to comment, since he is such an advanced sadhak?
I would agree with Etherfish. If you decide to do something such as receiving healing or taking diksha or shaktipath, and part of that is to stop other practices whilst the process is unfolding then it is best to go along with that. If there is no set time then just as long as you feel is right would be fine. With Diksha I believe the time recommended is 30 days to allow the process to work on the body.
Do remember that with any form of direct energy transmission the effectiveness of the process will depend on the ability of the person giving (their energetic radiance and ability to transfer it to others safely) and on the ability of the person on the receiving end to be able to receive the transmission. This depends more on the amount of purification that has already taken place through spiritual practices, than on any mental willingness to recieve.
Christi
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 02:39:33 AM
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hi everyone, just want to thank you for your great add ons to the subject.
namaste,
Ananda |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 07:17:11 AM
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Thanks, Christie
Krish |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 1:42:16 PM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks for your reply.
quote:
Before someone has awakened their kundalini they will have prana flowing in their bodies
My understanding is that there is just a trickle of prana into the body from kundalini, as you say, enough when combined with prana from other sources such as food water and air to sustain life.
Bramacharya has the effect of increasing the charge in the system by minimizing the leaks.
But kundalini herself, is separate and distinct.
This is from the book Yoga and Health by Haich and Yesudian:
The basis of every religion is the secret which lies hidden within the spine of each individual......
When the negative pole is freed from its normal location in the lowest vertebra and travels upward, it can reach the positive pole and unite with it.
Sometimes amongst people who have no understanding of Kundalini and the chakras and who are living on a very low plane of consciousness, some external impulse resulting from a blow or an accident may liberate Kundalini and cause it unexpectedly to race up the spinal column.
As the consciousness of the average individual is not dimensioned for this, he falls in a faint. Whoever has consciously reached this condition with the aid of Yoga exercises will experience this supreme plane of consciousness ecstatically.
According to these people, emc, flat ain't where its at. Myself, and I think most of the people here including you would tend to agree with them. jmo, but I don't think she is there. The potential for ecstacy is there for everybody, and will be experienced sooner or later. Again, jmo.
You can see that they refer to Kundalini as if she is a caged cobra. A distinct entity, anyways.
And that it is a force of a magnitude exponentially greater than what the average individual is used to.
Now it could be that the steady bramacharya and tantra and spinal breathing and meditation cause a gradual and imperceptible increase in the amount of kundalini energy leaking into the system and a preservation of that prana and also the prana absorbed from the environment. And also a gradual rise in consciousness.
It could be that that is what I am experiencing at this time and which I am content with.
And it could be that my one experience was not desirable and was too much of a release for my system to handle at one time.
I guess it is a matter of whether the cork is controlled and the gas is gradually released from the champagne bottle or the cork is uncontrolled and goes flying off along with a good amount of the bubbly.
Hence the need for self pacing.
Perhaps Kundalini is the proverbial genie a bottle.
Or it could be something that I have not thought of.
quote:
Gradually the flow of prana through the sushumna nadi increases until it reaches a point when kundalini awakens. Kundalini is not different from prana, it is a word which describes a particular flow of prana, a bit like the word "torrent" describes a movement of water.
Exactly my point, Christi and what I am trying to clarify. Kundalini is not the prana that we are normally privy to. It is not the prana in the spine. We normally only experience the small amount that seeps into our system which is infinitesimal compared to the vast potentiality waiting to be released when conditions are right.
It is this pent up colossal force trapped at the base of the spine waiting to be liberated thru properly applied Yoga exercise.
quote:
Bramacharya stops the charge of prana in the kanda chakra from being constantly drained, causing the energy to move upward through the body, rather than outward through the sexual organs, or more acurately through the swadisthana chakra.
Gradually the flow of prana through the sushumna nadi increases until it reaches a point when kundalini awakens.
The flow of prana normally circulating in the body and the kundalini prana are two different things altho both are prana.
This is what I am getting at. What you are saying is that there must be a sufficient charge of energy in the kanda for kundalini to be aroused but that that charge is not Kundalini.
It is like the kanda is the car battery and there is insufficient charge to start the car. The yoga exercises charge the battery to point where the ignition can occur and the engine can start.
Using a set of jumper cables might be equivalent to shaktipat.
quote:
The potential energy of the stored up prana in the pelvic region (both before and after the kundalini is awakened) is said to be kundalini, and the dynamics of the released energy which transforms the being after awakening is also kundalini.
And the presence of this potential energy is not the result of anything I am doing. And it is not the prana in the spine or kanda. It is there, already, waiting to be released. It is not the energy I am accumulating thru Yoga practice. Altho once awakened and brought under control it is.
By curtailing energy loss, the charge in the kanda can increase to the point where we can achieve lift off or release of kundalini from her dwelling in the triangular chakra at the base of the spine.
I also reason that because a person can have a kundalini awakening spontaneously independent of yoga practice, kundalini is something separate and distinct from the prana circulating and stored in different batteries along the spine column as the result of receiving and storing it from the environment as the organism automatically does and which can also be preserved and cultivated thru yoga practice.
So I am seeking to clarify the structural and functional mechanics of this dynamic.
Well those are the thoughts that come to mind at present regarding the subject. Do we agree and understand each other? I think we are but I am still not quite sure.
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Feb 15 2009 6:41:44 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 2:04:17 PM
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actually these are some good points from both Christy and yogibear, and both of them seem very logical.
in my own personal experience, Christy's explanation seems very reasonable cz it's yoga practices (pranayama and kumbhaka) which lead to my own awakening.
about them accidents, that's a good point yogibear.
just want to add a theory to it; i see that there is pain when an accident happens and pain is a sign for the body that it needs to heal itself and energy is what heals so the body starts working automaticaly to bring energy from whatever source available to heal itself and this in it's own turns migh lead toward that prana build up in the spine.
by the way, i didn't last the whole week without energy work cz redirecting the energies was needed and yes it is that abundent but it becomes too much abundent and wild if it is left alone.
light and love,
Ananda |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 01:25:21 AM
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Hi YB
quote:
This is what I am getting at. What you are saying is that there must be a sufficient charge of energy in the kanda for kundalini to be aroused but that that charge is not Kundalini.
Not quite. What I was saying is that this charge of prana stored at the base of the spine is kundalini. The release of this charge and the subsequent transformation of the energy system of the body is also kundalini. So kundalini is both potential (in it's pre-awakened form) and transformation (in it's awakened form). It is described in yoga as being coiled at the base of the spine, as rising once awakened and as descending from above at more advanced stages of purification.
There is a tendency in yoga to describe kundalini as if it is a separate substance, or even a being with it's own consciousness. I believe there is a consciousness at work, but it is a consciousness directing the flow of prana in various ways to bring about a transformation of the human vehicle. Ultimately we can only come to know the truth of these things through our own experience.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2009 : 02:12:16 AM
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Hi Ananda,
quote:
what i want to ask is, once kundalini awakens and maybe matures a bit is there a limit to the overflow of energy cz i'm not experiencing any loss these days unlike before? plus does the spiritual transformation become inevitable once mother kundalini awakens like the case of Gopi krishna and which path is faster us or his? (of course we already know which is safer )
any feedback would be appreciated.
Great to hear about your ongoing experiences. As regards your question, I do not think there is any limit to the amount of prana that one person can transmit through their system. I don't know if Gopi Krishna's path is faster than a more conventional system of integrated yoga practices. Of course, we don't know what Gopi Krishna was doing in his previous births... so it is very difficult to make any comparison. All I know is that I would not like to go through what he went through!
Christi |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 6:01:21 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Not quite. What I was saying is that this charge of prana stored at the base of the spine is kundalini. The release of this charge and the subsequent transformation of the energy system of the body is also kundalini. So kundalini is both potential (in it's pre-awakened form) and transformation (in it's awakened form). It is described in yoga as being coiled at the base of the spine, as rising once awakened and as descending from above at more advanced stages of purification.
There is a tendency in yoga to describe kundalini as if it is a separate substance, or even a being with it's own consciousness. I believe there is a consciousness at work, but it is a consciousness directing the flow of prana in various ways to bring about a transformation of the human vehicle. Ultimately we can only come to know the truth of these things through our own experience.
In the book The Serpent Power, by Arthur Avalon, he states that, when powerfully effected by yoga pranayama, what is projected into the body from kundalini is an emanation or subtle copy, an etheric double of "Her own self:"
"Thus, while this 'ethereal double' or, self-ejection of the coiled power at the Muladhara ascends the Sushumna, the coiled power itself does not and need not stir from its place. It is like a spark given from an over saturated electro-magnetic machine; or, rather, it is like the emanations of radium which do not sensibly detract from the energy contained in it. This last, perhaps, is the closest physical parallel of the case that we are trying to understand."
This is more the concept I have and was trying to express. I am happy we are having this conversation because I bought this book a long time ago and had no real inclination to read it.
But now in trying to clearly conceptualize the kundalini, I found it on line and am enjoying what I read of it. Does it fit with what you are trying to explain to me from your point of view?
Best, yb.
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Edited by - yogibear on Feb 22 2009 6:04:56 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2009 : 01:36:08 AM
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Hi Yb,
Yes, in my experience there is never any depletion of the energy stored at the base of the spine. So when people say that the kundalini energy rises up the spine to the crown of the head, it isn't that it leaves somewhere and goes somewhere else. It expands into the whole body (and beyond the body) and the higher energy centres (chakras) become activated.
The whole process (combined with automatic vajroli) produces a second body which is called a divine body. One of the aspects of the divine body is the glory body which is a duplicated version of the physical body, except that it is slightly bigger and formed of fine strands of golden light. The glory body is not visible to the physical eyes but can be seen clearly with spiritual vision.
Christi |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2009 : 03:11:42 AM
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and how does one interact with those bodies Christy?
i've heard about redirecting mother kundalini as bhakti toward a certain Ishta as a tool and that has worked for me until now... about other stuff i really don't know maybe astral projection techniques could be more effective now? bcz this stuff seems very interesting but kind of dangerous to handle; i mean if i am to get out and project toward my causal body and at the same time i don't know how to manipulate my own karmas won't that creat a big mess.
about "The serpent power", it's coming my way hopefully next month thx for the insights Yb.
kindest regards,
Ananda |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 02:41:22 AM
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Hi Ananda,
The creation of the divine body is a natural part of the process of spiritual transformation. It is part of our inner illumination. There is no need to interact with it in any way (any more than you need to interact with your physical body). It is a natural progression in yoga. As for astral projection, it is not something that I do, so I can't really comment.
Christi |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 02:52:57 AM
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| thks for the feedback Christy. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 08:08:12 AM
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Christi,
are all of those bodies in the same place as our physical body? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 08:27:16 AM
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Hi Etherfish,
Basically there is only one divine body produced by each person as they become illuminated from within. This divine body has a number of aspects, the glory body being one of them. There is a more subtle aspect called the holy body (or causal body) which is invisible to all but the most transcendent of beings. Even the glory body is only visible to a few. There is another aspect to the divine body which is called an emanation body. This appears as a normal physical body. Using this, a master who exists only in the higher realms can appear to a normal human here on earth. The appearance could be short or long in duration.
The glory body is also called the solar body or the pranakosha. Don't let all the names confuse you.. it's basically just one thing in the end, manifesting through different levels of reality (vibrational layers). It is what happens when our neurophysiology becomes fully illuminated from within.
During Mahasamadi (the death of an enlightened being), a master simply transfers her consciousness from her physical body to the divine body. She can then still apear to people if she wants to, either on the physical plane (as Christ did) or on the inner spiritual planes (using either the body of glory or the holy body), which would be called a vision of an ascended master. Christ revealed his body of glory to some of his desciples once during an episode called the transfiguration.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 08:51:26 AM
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p.s.
In the Secrets of Wilder novel there are two examples of the manifestation of an emination body, both by John Wilder. The first was when his parents were about to crash their plane, and the second when Devi is being attacked.
At the end of the book there is an example of the manifestation of a glory body, when John begins his assention.
In answer to your question about whether the divine bodies are located in the same place as the physical.... well... sort of. The glory body and the holy body exist in the same place as the physical, except that time and space are really only manifestations of the physical plane, so things like location have less reality as we go higher in vibration. The emanation body can be produced anywhere, as in the examples in the novel. The production of an emination body in another place whilst the physical body is still alive is called bi-location.
http://www.aypsite.org/264.html
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Feb 24 2009 09:04:11 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 12:37:05 PM
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hi Christy, out of what i read about some of my own experiences (which Yogani puts in the term of scenery) i have experienced awareness in the causal body and i don't think that i am transcendant or anywhere near that place whatever it is.
i have posted one of these experiences here in the forums, and it was bcz of you that i knew what it was about.
i think the post was named "meditating outside the body".
by the way when astral projection happens it's pretty much fun, it's nice to see beirut up from the skies.... but when the causal thingy happens it's something pretty intense kind of universal you may say and when it first happened with me i felt and experienced deep changes in all my being it was like an update for my system like i downloaded new stuff into it but it happened only once with such intensity.
so is it possible for you normal average joe to experience stuff like that or was it just scenery and smthg which is not related to the causal body experience?
would appreciate any feedback. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 2:00:44 PM
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| All self hypnosis. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2009 : 2:55:56 PM
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Kundalini is like flying a jet plane to India; rather than taking a tug boat and then walking. In short, kundalini is a means not an end in itself. Is there a limit? The limit is your awareness of what kundalini can do for you. Trust your heart... Don't let it turn into another attachment. Once you get to India, you don't need the jet plane any more. If you really are interested in meditating without interruption, then kundalini can be instrumental in allowing you to continue in samadhi for weeks at a time without food or water or pee pee breaks.
I would like you to consider the part about radiating shaki from your heart chakra out to the world. That is the most significant event you have related. In fact, the external world really radiates out from your heart consciousness. This is a fundamental fact of awareness that pervades all of space.
If I were you, I would select that experience as the object of my meditation. If you can stabilize that experience, you are on the path of the victors. Congratulations.
Love,
TMS
P.S., In contrast to the standard AYP holding that kundalini is a sex energy. I believe, from my experience, that kundalini is a combination of energies, only one of which is sexual. Others related to digestion, breathing and consciousness (and more). One can send sex energy into the central channel or hold the sex energy with the digestive and the lung and send that into the central channel for a more blazing effect. Not all traditions describe kundalini as a serpent spiraling from the sex spot. It all breaks down to the same thing... wind... |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Feb 24 2009 3:01:01 PM |
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kundalini energy, is it that abundant?
