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ClearAvatar
Ghana
12 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 08:41:30 AM
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Hi all,
Yogani: "Personally, if I felt I had reached a level of energetic stability like you have described, I'd probably be off opening a few more realms of beings than would be completely comfortable, and paying a price for it. That may be a difference between us.
There is always a choice to do more, or less, and that will be according to individual inclination. For this reason, I will always be skeptical of anyone who claims to be at an end point, because there is no end point in sight. Is the entire cosmos enlightened yet? There is so much more to do!"
I have heard of a similar concept which imply that the so-called cosmic consciousness as generally referred to is about the first stage at which true universal service starts and one at this stage is truly at 'class one' at the universal level for there are higher levels of existence of some order such as planetary consciousness, solar consciousness, galactic consciousness and so forth till the many return to the one.
I wish to ascertain if that is the implication of what I have quoted above especially talking about opening up different realms of existence?
Clear |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 09:24:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ClearAvatar
I have heard of a similar concept which imply that the so-called cosmic consciousness as generally referred to is about the first stage at which true universal service starts and one at this stage is truly at 'class one' at the universal level for there are higher levels of existence of some order such as planetary consciousness, solar consciousness, galactic consciousness and so forth till the many return to the one.
I wish to ascertain if that is the implication of what I have quoted above especially talking about opening up different realms of existence?
Clear
Hi Clear:
Yes, it is. But it is not something that can be cognized or planned before the fact. It is more like reaching a perceived stage of completion, and then realizing a whole new dimension of activity (service) that was not in the awareness before. Or if it was, it was only a vague awareness. It is like crawling, walking and running. One does not really reach for walking until there is crawling, and does not reach for running before walking.
Of course, there are going be exceptions in that, and those are the spiritual prodigies. The rest of us are going to be taking it one step at a time. Nothing wrong with that. 
All the speculation about other realms and worlds is just that -- speculation. It only becomes meaningful when we find ourselves in a position to make a contribution in stillness, and then it isn't anything that resembles the mental concepts we might have had about it. It is just more practice and self-pacing in the here and now. Such is the breadth of the human nervous system, and yoga.
The guru is in you.
PS: Samyama and cosmic samyama are techniques that take us beyond so-called end states. Self-inquiry can also, but it is less reliable (especially as stand-alone practice) for reasons that are discussed in the lessons. And bhakti trumps all, of course. Hence my caution here about getting too comfortable in a perceived end state -- it can short-circuit bhakti.
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2011 : 05:40:44 AM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to what I've had to say. I appreciate how you have articulated the opening and maturing and the growing pains of the process all us who read these columns feel.
And for those of us who have come along to read your observations, these certainly ring true to what more seasoned yogis have experienced in their life as well, and the sincerity with which you are able to guide so many fellow travelers, many who are relatively early on the path and maybe naive to it all, many times, from reading their heart felt responses. And knowing how many people you are guiding, you have to be carefull what you say, so as to benefit all those who look up to you, and to be consistent with what you've already written to guide them.
I don't disagree with any of your observations. I guess that it's just that I for one, have found some maturity after a decade or two of rather obsessive yogic practices. For me, I needed to conceptualize what was happening the best i could do too, just like you. I guess I don't concern with enlightenment as a concept as much as actualization and maturing of consciousness as a result of one pointed awareness and reflection on who we are and who we are not. So I'm not concerned to know your opinion as to whether you think I am enlightened or whether anyone is living or dead, scriptures not with standing.
All I can say is to add my personal observations, though my words are not within the convention of your AYP paradigm particularly.
And it's hard to know where we're going when we can't see around the curve in the road ahead.
What I see is this. The energy system is completely open and functional. No longer power surges, depression, euphoria, but a great sense of wanting to help others. In fact, in my case, things only really took off, when I dedicated any personal refinement towards not achieving personal benefit or some immortality beyond humanity, but a dedication to always re incarnate, in service. And to embody that that spirit of service in keeping with the Bodhisattva vow.
So here's where things are at for me. I can do my form of advanced yoga practices, or not do them, and there is no difference in consciousness. There seems to be energetic equilibrium of the system. I'm just not aware of overloads at the present time, though I know just what those symptoms are personally. I haven't run from them either, in the past. My approach was more of enduring them with surrendering to them as inevitable. They were very extreme in the past, to which I just attributed them as being part of the package of agony and ecstasy. I've grown (groan) through them.
Now there is an abiding level of awareness, insight, equilibrium, and an abiding intuitive life that is very tangible. An abiding whether awake or in sleep. Visual phenomena depicting the various past lives I've lived, as a kind of explanation of how I've gotten to where this is now, and dreams or visions of the future. And a sense of oneness that is very tangible. I just feel there's nowhere else to go for me. This is it, fully, and there just isn't anything to fear. I'll be back again, carrying on the same mission here, as long as destiny will function in that. An equilibrium of samadhi of a constant sort 24/7. The body/mind decides when to meditate and when to drink whiskey, and there is a time that's right for everything. I'm grateful to be here. Hope this helps. Just wanted to share that.
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2011 : 06:13:54 AM
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Hi Amfreenow,
I tried to send you a private email only to see that it was not possible.
I have several questions I would like to ask of you, (like Malts or Blends ?)  maybe you could send me a private email through my AYP profile.
Guy |
Edited by - Guy_51 on Nov 13 2011 06:18:14 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2011 : 09:53:40 AM
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Hi Amfreenow:
Thank you for your last post, sharing your sense of the continuing journey. I think it is a realistic way of sharing with others, minimizing expectations for an "end state," while at the same time celebrating the peace and joy of the endless arriving of all of us, which is certainly happening.
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2011 : 11:11:50 AM
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Hi Amfreenow
I only have a second but I wanted to ask you one thing as it is what I am dealing with directly right now. You said:
"I guess I don't concern with enlightenment as a concept as much as actualization and maturing of consciousness as a result of one pointed awareness and reflection on who we are and who we are not."
What I am going through right now is something very similar to what you are describing above in the "reflection on who we are and who we are not." I'm quite aware of the whole "neti neti" approach, but for me I just can't seem to find anything that I am not.... I even started a thread here at AYP some 8-10 months ago called "Emptiness vs Fullness" (I think, don't have time to search for it) with regards to this contemplation/reflection. Am interested in hearing what you feel you are not.
Sorry this is so abrupt... gotta run. 
Love!
P.S. Welcome to the forums. |
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2011 : 03:03:15 AM
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Yogani, thank you.
Guy_51, What do you have to say? What could possibly need private communication? Share your thoughts. I'm sure many are curious now. |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2011 : 12:02:01 PM
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Hi Amfreenow,
I respect you not wanting to communicate via email, sorry I asked.
Please respect my not wanting to ask certain questions in a public forum.
All the best to you,
Guy |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2011 : 9:02:27 PM
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| There is a delay for new members before the email will work. Not sure if it is time or number of posts, but if you wait a while it will work eventually. |
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2011 : 03:08:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guy_51
Hi Amfreenow,
I respect you not wanting to communicate via email, sorry I asked.
Please respect my not wanting to ask certain questions in a public forum.
All the best to you,
Guy
Dear Guy,
You haven't told me your problem, but in meditation tonight, some answers came into being regarding your situation. We are all one you know. Here it is: It seems that you've been doing AYP for a long time and you feel you should be seeing some tangible energetics by now. You're not sure what to do next. My answer would be to stop smoking if you do so, continue your AYP practices as advised here, and gradually add in other modules of AYP yogic practices just like they say, one at a time. Further, never let a day go by that you don't do your meditation. You have to have faith that things will pan out. Maybe one of those AYP retreats would be a good thing to attend. Keep up the good work. I'm no one to be giving you any advice anyway. But that's my conclusion about your predicament. Hope I haven't overstated things. We're all in this together. Hope this helps. Don;t smoke. Have you tried the electronic cigarettes?
Just a hunch about you. I could be dead wrong. Hope this helps. |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2011 : 5:28:49 PM
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Dear Amfreenow,
Thank you for taking the time to share with me your insights into my process.
Although I no longer smoke cigarettes or cigars ( it's been over a decade since I quit cigarettes) no doubt smoking has always been an issue in my life. I smoked for nearly 30 years.
Like I said in my previous post, much of what I was hoping to discuss with you, I'm not really comfortable doing so in a public forum, mostly out of my deep sense of loyalty to Yogani and the AYP mission in general. My concern being, I don't want to give anybody the impression that AYP has not been helpful to me because it surely has.
Sometimes I wish I had signed in to AYP like I did in 2005 and maintained an anonymous persona so I could be more comfortable in an open forum like this. On the other hand I have enjoyed being able to help the AYP mission by being a local contact and other ways which require full disclosure of who you are. I hope this makes sense and maybe you can now better understand why I asked you about the private email communication.
In any event, I just wanted you to know that my intentions were in no way underhanded, only that not all thing are for public consumption.
Boris... My apologies for sidetracking this most enlightening discussion you started on overload and self pacing.
Guy |
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ClearAvatar
Ghana
12 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 1:00:23 PM
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Thank you Yogani for the info. It helps a lot to put some conceptions in perspective.
Concerning overloads, I seem not to experience those 'remarkable' experiences that others share, especially in the Easy Lessons publications, even though I have been consistently practising for not less than a 170 days of AYP in addition to my prior AYP practices. Is it that my system is too cloggy to experience those 'things' to at least indicate some sort of progress? Can overloading be in this form - Stagnation?
It seems to me that the only drawback with my practice is not doing them at specific times in the mornings and evenings. Is that a requirement? In fact it seems I am almost always aware of my surroundings instead being deep (loss of thoughts or awareness) in 'deep meditation.' Could it be that spiritual/yoga practices are not for all persons? Lastly could ill-health of a chronic nature significantly delay a positive response to inner neurological purification?
Can I just continue like that without realistic or permanent indication of progress? At least, I suppose faith must have some basis than just splendid, down-to-earth beautiful and practical explanations and applications of such teachings, plus what others are claiming, don't you think?
Thank you.
Clear |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 1:49:47 PM
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Hi Clear:
Your spiritual desire (bhakti) will carry you through. As we continue with practices, inner purification and opening will be occurring, whether noticed or not. Others may notice effects in us before we do. We may seem a bit calmer, more centered, less irritable in daily activity... These are signs of progress.
The variations in practice you mentioned are not likely to be major factors. Daily practice is most important, not so much the particular time. Health issues should not affect results except as they may keep us from daily practice. Some prescription medications can have an effect -- see Lesson 29.
For pointers on practice for those who may be "under-sensitive" to deep meditation, you may want to take a look at Lesson 366
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 2:03:41 PM
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Clear:
It is much easier for me to go deeper if I am at home in a place where I know nobody is likely to interrupt me. if I meditate during a break at work, for instance I won't go as deep.
If you expect certain results and look for them, it slows you down. You have to do the meditation as a routine without expectations. Just keep going, and the good thing about not expecting anything is you may have an experience you have never heard of, or that can't be put in words. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 4:16:23 PM
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hello Clear
Yogani gave you very sound advice
there was a funny thread about members "complaining" they are not experiencing "fireworks"...check it out for a good laugh
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....rchTerms=tea |
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mahabaratara
United Kingdom
92 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 6:28:23 PM
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Truly first class thread.
I Thank You all for your insights and look forward to reading much much more.
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 12:18:27 AM
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Greetings and peace
The problem that I have seen with most people isn't that they are doing too much. The problem generally is that they are doing to little. The mind has the capacity to justify a sin with a virtue. It is very easy to use the concept of self-pacing to justify procrastination. When you undertake any endeavour, the beginning is ackward and uncomfortable. When I learned how to play guitar the tips of my fingers got blisters and sometimes would bleed. These stages were necessary and passed. I am not saying that we shouldn't minimize the discomfort as much as we can. After all what is the hurry. We can always take up our practice in our next life  . The purpose of yoga is to accelerate the natural evolution of the soul. To grow is to change and with change there will always be some level of discomfort. Once you have achieved the goal there will be no more need to change. All I am trying to say is that there can be a danger in misapplying self-pacing and the feeling of overload. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 01:29:12 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 07:20:58 AM
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| With me self pacing is not for the purpose of avoiding discomfort. It is for avoiding insanity! Not just something that goes away after a couple days. You would have to experience it to understand it. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 07:47:48 AM
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Hello Etherfish
Thank you for your reply. I am new to the forum. You are the first person I have engaged in dialog. It is nice to find someone who has understanding.
If it doesn't go away after backing off. Then what is the point of backing off? We all are suffering from some level of insanity To know what is sane you need to know what is insane. Personally, I find being insane most uncomfortable. It kind of gives me a headache .
Something one should consider; GOD is not in you, you are in GOD. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 3:16:09 PM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 3:07:49 PM
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Hello CarsonZi
I was reading your above post regarding emptiness vs fullness, being vs not being, sanity vs insanity, and so on and had a thought to share. It has been said to know what a mountain is, you must first know what a mountain is not. That statement reminds me of a story. A famous sculptor was asked one time how he is able to sculpt such beautiful statues of horses out of hugh rocks of marble. The famous sculptor replied, it is very simple. All I do is chip away everything that isn't a horse. In essence that is what we are trying to do. Chip away everything that isn't our true selves. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 3:14:58 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 4:12:07 PM
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Hi Mikananda and welcome to the AYP Forums!
Chipping away at everything that isn't our true nature is certainly one way to approach "self realization" but as long as that chipping away is a mental process it isn't going to be very effective (in my experience anyway). After the shift that happened last night (described here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10733) it's become even more apparent to me just how effective (and necessary) Deep Meditation is. Without the actual cultivation of "the witness state" I don't know that it is possible to effectively utilize the "neti neti" approach. Before *embodying* the Witness (as opposed to conceptually understanding the ideas of The Witness) which is a direct result (in my experience) of consistent, long term Deep Meditation practice, the neti neti approach is just going to be what Yogani calls "building castles in the air." So, first thing's first; cultivate the Witness state through Deep Meditation. Once the witness is "embodied" then it seems that the neti neti approach comes naturally. Trying to "impose" the neti neti approach doesn't lead to much other then mental loops (in my experience).
So, I have a completely different view on the Emptiness vs Fullness thread that I started. It seems (now) that neti neti is a natural outcome of settling into the Witness state. But using neti neti as a formal self inquiry practice doesn't seem effective to me. Just my opinion based on how things feel in this moment right now.
Welcome again to the forums. Great to have you here.
Love!
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 7:08:02 PM
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Hello CarsonZi
Thanks for the reply. I fully agree that developing the witness state is of primary importance and is the foundation that one needs to build their "castle on bedrock." But a castle isn't very much without it's high towers. The propose of yoga is to accelerate the natural evolution of the soul. All rivers run into the sea. In yoga we try to swim with the current. We can choose to sit there and just let the current take us to it's destination (not very much fun). For GOD created this world for his pleasure and ours. It is like a game of hide and seek. Sometimes it is hard to see who is seeking who. Just as one can remove a thorn with another thorn. Once the thorn has been removed we can throw both away. I am not very familar with the neti neti approach. But because some have chosen to take an idea and run with it does't mean that there isn't something there that can be of benefit. Deep Meditation is wonderful and brings much joy and understanding. And is really all that is needed. However, AYP has then added spinal breathing. Both methods don't use very much thinking if any. You just do the practice. I myself seem to need something more to satisfy the mind until I have learned to control it. That is why forums like this are so helpful. It is here that we can debate profound ideas. If we continue in this practice with all sincerity and effort. One day we will awake and find that we have become master debators .
With all that said, the idea I was trying to express is that if one has a good understanding of where he is going his chances of getting there are greatly improved. The witness state is not a form of unconsciousness, rather a state of full awareness. My humble remarks to your gracious wisdom. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 10:06:54 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 8:05:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
Hello Etherfish
If it doesn't go away after backing off. Then what is the point of backing off?
Welcome to the forum Mikananda.
It DOES go away after backing off. I was trying to dispute your statement that people self-pace just because of minor discomfort. Yogani doesn't tell us when to self-pace because we have to decide for ourselves. Maybe some people just want to avoid discomfort, but I'm the kind of guy who will let it go to the extreme before I self pace.
The last time I was on the verge of quitting my job, and felt I would probably get fired anyway, and I just wanted to give up everything and start over somewhere else. I felt i was mentally ill, but that a psychiatrist wouldn't understand.
I called in sick for two days. So that's the point where I decided I needed to self pace. Everything is back to normal now. I love my job and I am very good at it, but the mind imagines strange things.
Each person has to decide for themselves where to draw that line and self pace. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 9:54:35 PM
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Hello Etherfish
Well said and I agree. I myself have never suffered anything that I would call overload. I have had many profound spiritual experiences. These only motivate me to do more. However my desire to do more only ends up getting blocked by daily activities, other responsibilities, and physical limitations (I hate getting old ). What you consider major I might consider minor. And what I consider major you might consider minor. When all is said and done, each one must decide what path he will take. For when we stand before GOD we will not be able to blame others. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 11:51:30 PM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2011 : 11:07:36 PM
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Hello Amfreenow
Your post made me think about the Diamond that Cuts Through Illusion. "This is how the bodhisattva mahasattvas master their thinking. However many species of living beings there are - whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or whether it cannot be said of them that they have peceptions or that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been liberated. For if a bodhisattva holds on to the idea that a self, a person, a living being, or life span exists, that person is not an authentic bodhisattva."
quote:
Originally posted by Amfreenow
Hi Yogani,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to what I've had to say. I appreciate how you have articulated the opening and maturing and the growing pains of the process all us who read these columns feel.
And for those of us who have come along to read your observations, these certainly ring true to what more seasoned yogis have experienced in their life as well, and the sincerity with which you are able to guide so many fellow travelers, many who are relatively early on the path and maybe naive to it all, many times, from reading their heart felt responses. And knowing how many people you are guiding, you have to be carefull what you say, so as to benefit all those who look up to you, and to be consistent with what you've already written to guide them.
I don't disagree with any of your observations. I guess that it's just that I for one, have found some maturity after a decade or two of rather obsessive yogic practices. For me, I needed to conceptualize what was happening the best i could do too, just like you. I guess I don't concern with enlightenment as a concept as much as actualization and maturing of consciousness as a result of one pointed awareness and reflection on who we are and who we are not. So I'm not concerned to know your opinion as to whether you think I am enlightened or whether anyone is living or dead, scriptures not with standing.
All I can say is to add my personal observations, though my words are not within the convention of your AYP paradigm particularly.
And it's hard to know where we're going when we can't see around the curve in the road ahead.
What I see is this. The energy system is completely open and functional. No longer power surges, depression, euphoria, but a great sense of wanting to help others. In fact, in my case, things only really took off, when I dedicated any personal refinement towards not achieving personal benefit or some immortality beyond humanity, but a dedication to always re incarnate, in service. And to embody that that spirit of service in keeping with the Bodhisattva vow.
So here's where things are at for me. I can do my form of advanced yoga practices, or not do them, and there is no difference in consciousness. There seems to be energetic equilibrium of the system. I'm just not aware of overloads at the present time, though I know just what those symptoms are personally. I haven't run from them either, in the past. My approach was more of enduring them with surrendering to them as inevitable. They were very extreme in the past, to which I just attributed them as being part of the package of agony and ecstasy. I've grown (groan) through them.
Now there is an abiding level of awareness, insight, equilibrium, and an abiding intuitive life that is very tangible. An abiding whether awake or in sleep. Visual phenomena depicting the various past lives I've lived, as a kind of explanation of how I've gotten to where this is now, and dreams or visions of the future. And a sense of oneness that is very tangible. I just feel there's nowhere else to go for me. This is it, fully, and there just isn't anything to fear. I'll be back again, carrying on the same mission here, as long as destiny will function in that. An equilibrium of samadhi of a constant sort 24/7. The body/mind decides when to meditate and when to drink whiskey, and there is a time that's right for everything. I'm grateful to be here. Hope this helps. Just wanted to share that.
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Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 23 2011 11:19:10 PM |
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overload in other meditations
