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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 16 2011 : 12:18:51 AM
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Hi Yogani :)
In almost every text that I've read about Patanjali's Sutras, dharana and dhyana are explained as follows: Dharana is concentration on one object, which requires effort. Dhyana, (meditation) is the result of successfully maintaining a constant stream of awareness on the object of attention.
For example, in "Kundalini Tantra" by Satyananda, dharana is
quote:
"Dharana: concentration; continuity of mental process on one object or idea without leaving it."
"Dhyana: meditation, in the sense of intense meditation for an extended period of time."
Swamiji's interpretation of Patanjali's 6'th and 7'th limbs of yoga, dharana and dhyana is as follows:
link: http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-30406.htm
quote:
Dharana: Concentration is the process of holding or fixing the attention of mind onto one object or place. (3.1)
Dhyana: Meditation is sustained concentration, whereby the attention continues to hold or repeat the same object or place. (3.2)
From the wiki:
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyama
quote:
Fixing the consciousness on one point or region is concentration (dharana).
A steady, continuous flow of attention directed towards the same point or region is meditation (dhyana).
When the object of meditation engulfs the meditator, appearing as the subject, self-awareness is lost. This is samadhi.
These three together [dharana, dhyana and samadhi] constitute integration or samyama.
And, more from the wiki:
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dh%C4%...%B9%87%C4%81
quote:
Dharana may be translated as "holding", "holding steady", "concentration" or "single focus". The prior limb Pratyahara involves withdrawing the senses from external phenomena. Dharana; builds further upon this by refining it further to ekagrata or ekagra chitta, that is single-pointed concentration and focus, which is in this context cognate with shamata. Maehle (2006: p. 234) defines Dharana as: "The mind thinks about one object and avoids other thoughts; awareness of the object is still interrupted."
Dharana; is the initial step of deep concentrative meditation, where the object being focused upon is held in the mind without consciousness wavering from it. The difference between Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi (the three together constituting Samyama) is that in the former, the object of meditation, the meditator, and the act of meditation itself remain separate. That is, the meditator or the meditator's meta-awareness is conscious of meditating (that is, is conscious of the act of meditation) on an object, and of his or her own self, which is concentrating on the object. In the subsequent stage of Dhyana, as the meditator becomes more advanced, consciousness of the act of meditation disappears, and only the consciousness of being/existing and the object of concentration exist (in the mind). In the final stage of Samadhi, the ego-mind also dissolves, and the meditator becomes one with the object. Generally, the object of concentration is God, or the Self, which is seen as an expression of God.
Yogani, you have written the following about Dharana and Dhyana, the sixth and seventh limbs of Patanjali's yoga sutras:
(bolding is mine)
link: http://www.aypsite.org/149.html
quote:
6. Dharana – It means "concentration or focus of attention," and is the first step in taking the mind inward through meditation. In the lessons, we don't hold the attention on anything for long. We just bring attention easily to an object (the mantra), and then let it go how it will. This brings attention almost immediately beyond the beginning perception for the object, which is what we want. The mind will take us inward if we give it the opportunity.
7. Dhyana – It means "meditation," and is the flow of attention inward. It can also be described as the expansion of attention beyond any object. In the lessons, the mantra is used as the vehicle for this. We come easily to the mantra, and then the mantra changes and disappears. Our attention expands, arriving in its natural unattached state - stillness.
But is this valid? How can that be? In the classic definition of dharana, there is the sense of sustaining concentration on the object for an extended amount of time, yet you say that "we don't hold the attention on anything for long". Aren't these two ideas at polar opposites of each other? How can you train the mind to sustain concentration on an object by "not holding attention on anything for long"?
Some sources say that dhyana must be maintained for at least 144 breaths in order for the mind state to progress into samadhi:
link: http://yogaoftrading.wordpress.com/...ading/299-2/
quote:
In technical terms, dhyana is defined as meditation lasting for 144 complete breaths. It is the seventh limb of Patañjali’s Ashtanga system and, together with samadhi, moves into the causal, unconscious realm of Anandamaya kosha or “bliss sheath.”
I'm trying hard to understand all of this. It appears to me that you are redefining the classic definitions of Patanjali's dharana and dhyana and trying to make it look like Deep Meditation is part of or at least modeled from Patanjali's 6'th and 7'th sutras. Here you wrote about deep meditation:
link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...._ID=678#2269
quote:
In Patanjali's yoga sutra's it is a three stage process comprising the last three of the eight limbs of yoga:
1. Concentration - attention on an object (dharana)
2. Meditation - dissolving of the object (dhyana)
3. Absorption - pure bliss consciousness with no object (samadhi)
All of these are included in our easy deep meditation procedure.
To me, you are describing a technique, and that technique may or may not work (I'm not discussing the technique's efficacy here), but that technique doesn't seem to be Patanjali's teaching. Where did you get that interpretation of Patanjali's yoga sutras?
The other thing I don't understand about your teaching is your version of samyama. According to Patanjali, samyama is the combination of the three last limbs of yoga which are performed on the chosen object, the object being a thought, concept or some type of form. According to Patanjali, the process of samyama is to concentrate, and then meditate on the object until samadhi is reached. When in the state of this samadhi (with seed), the mind is empowered and specific insights, understanding and knowledge (and even abilities [sidhis]) relative to the seed (meditation object) are gained.
Your samyama is reversed, as you admit yourself:
link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...._ID=678#2269
quote:
Interestingly, samyama utilizes the same three limbs of yoga going in the reverse direction -- from inside outward. When we have developed to the point where we can have 1, 2 and 3 happening more or less in the same place (translation: some degree of resident inner silence), then we can initiate and release thoughts in inner silence and they will boomerang out, greatly amplified, through our nervous system and into the world. This is how stillness moves into action. It is a morally self-regulating process because neither ego nor negative intentions exist in our infinite field of pure bliss consciousness.
According to your instructions, you release a sutra into inner silence, wait 15 seconds and then repeat. Then you move on to the next sutra.
When I perform the classic steps of Patanjali's dharana, dhyana and then enter samadhi, there is no mind left: the body/mind and universe have dissolved, my object of meditation has become very bright and colorful and there is immense bliss. There is no mind at that point. You cannot function willfully at that point. I do not see how anybody in that state could even remember a sutra and then release it into silence (as you say). Surely, at that point, the mind no longer functions. How then is your version of 'samyama' even possible? What am I missing here?
Thank you.
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Nov 16 2011 12:23:21 AM |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2011 : 12:54:36 AM
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Hi TI:
Hey, good to see you back here again. 
All I can say is that AYP has worked well enough for me over the long haul, and a few others agree for as long as they have been using it. There is little more I have to say about it.
What you are missing, and I think have been missing all along, is that measuring one system of practice by the tenets of another (or by classical scripture or theory) is a fruitless endeavor (or at least has a diminishing return when taken to the extreme). It is possible to ascertain certain things through comparative scholarship, but I don't think it is possible to stay on a stable long term path of yoga practices through comparative scholarship. And a stable path of practice is absolutely the key to spiritual progress. So there is the rub.
So, if you want to practice, I again suggest that you pick one system and stay with it. If you want one that matches Patanjali's Yoga Sutras word for word, then go with that. But I should remind you that the Yoga Sutras are a 25 page document of pithy statements/sutras that have been interpreted 1000 ways in large volumes over the centuries. AYP is only one of those ways. Comparing it on paper with the other 999 ways is not going to be very helpful from a practitioner's point of view.
Sorry, that is the best I can do. We have been around on this before. You are welcome to continue the analysis for as long as you like, but I am unable to accompany you on that ride. True understanding in these matters cannot be found in the mind. It is found in abiding inner silence resulting from consistent daily practice.
The guru is in you.
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Nov 16 2011 : 03:32:11 AM
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Hey TI, I'll go for a ride through conceptland, a short one anyway. And Yogani, "It's working." Slowly.
We use the mantra as the object in meditation. The mantra is a very short-lived object, as far as objects go. It lasts a few seconds at most, and then it's gone. That is the sense in which Yogani wrote that our attention is not held for long. The sustained concentration in deep meditation is the returning to the mantra every time we're off it, for 20 minutes. If we used a rock as our object, we might focus our attention once, and then sustain it for a long period of time until samadhi. But with the mantra, we focus attention repeatedly for short periods of time until samadhi. This has certain advantages, like the object 'disappearing' after every repetition. And like the object being an intention in our own mind rather than an external perception. As for samyama... surely at some point you came out of your state of samadhi to write this post. And why not have the first thought coming out of samadhi be the intention of "Love" rather than whatever random thought pops the bubble? Until one day we realize, our intentions no longer pop the bubble. In any case, like Yogani said, you don't need to understand the mechanics, or pefectly define the process in order for it to work. These are just concepts which describe a simple practice. Eventually the sanskrit terms come to have a personal meaning which makes perfect sense. |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 05:03:27 AM
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Hello TI,
Thank you for asking the questions that we all think of, but which, for one reason or another, we do not post.
Even though a little reflection usually provides the answers we seek, it is still helpful to post for the benefit of others that read this forum.
It is important to realise that Devotional, Energy, and Mind based systems are all different. (Patanjali's Yoga sutras on Samhadi are Mind based practices. His entire collection of sutras address all 3 systems.)
AYP is an energy based system, that seeks to amplify Kundalinin/chi energy until ecstasy is reached. It is understood that once this energy has been properly activated, it will initiate a process that takes the Sadhaka back to their true home - union with the Divine, to use one expression; Non-Being, to use another.
For an energy system to remain stable, it must oscillate, and in order to grow, it must take a series of homeostatic steps. In this manner, energy is stimulated into higher levels of activity, and then seeks to achieve stability at that higher level, before again adding further stimulation.
All of the AYP practices follow this process of intention driven activity, which is why DM does not seek to deepen silence directly. It seeks to increase energetic activity, and will, as a byproduct, lead to greater silence. Once silence is experienced, it is further used to cycle the energy back into non-activity. I don't see much in the way of intention driven silence however, as might be found in Daoism, or as is provided through Dharana and Dhyana. That may be why so many experience quite a deal of overload.
AYP Samyama is a misnomer in the context of Patanjali's classical Samyama, but I guess someone has seen some similarity between the two, and decided to call them the same. AYP Samyama is better known in other traditions as 'Prayer', and it seeks to stimulate energy into manifestation through the agency of intention. It is a double-edged sword, and an excellent tool for demonstrating the old adage "Be careful what you wish for, You may get it".
Mind based systems use intention to move us from object-consciousness to pure awareness, and inquiry is a large part of this process. Inquiry often leads to challenge, but if inquiry is pursued deeply, challenge evaporates as understanding takes its place. This leads to a cycle of inquiry and understanding that develops wisdom.
In either case, while we remain physical beings, we move to ecstasy or bliss, and then return to manifest existence, thus experiencing the multi variant cycles of being and non-being.
My path has been primarily Mind based; however, in order to be wholly here, I find it necessary to exercise the physical and energetic bodies as well, which is where AYP practices have value for me. I would echo Yogani's observation, that regular sadhana helps us to turn circling thoughts into spirals of growth.
Namaste |
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mathurs
United Kingdom
197 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 05:47:52 AM
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Thanks Buddhi for your interesting perspective.
Particularly your elaboration with regards to energy based system:
"For an energy system to remain stable, it must oscillate, and in order to grow it must take a series of homeostatic steps." |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 10:43:47 AM
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Thank you Buddhihermit for the excellent analysis.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 11:39:56 AM
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Hi All:
For an overview of AYP in relation to the Eight Limbs of Yoga from the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (including Samyama), see Lesson 149.
While I do not agree with much of what has been said above, that is alright. This is looking at AYP through the lenses of other systems, and it is bound to be expressed in varying ways. The scrutiny is welcome.
For those who are looking for first hand information on AYP, it will be best to review the lessons.
It should be emphasized that AYP is an experience-based open-source system. The fruit of it is not to be found in conceptual understandings, but in the experiential results of daily practice over time.
Direct experience trumps intellectual knowledge, and transcends all analysis and debate. The Truth is alive within each of us, and its cultivation is what sets us free. Scriptures and conceptual knowledge are but external reflections of That. The invitation here is to do what is necessary to unfold from within, and express the Truth in daily life in your own way.
Wishing you all the best on your chosen path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 12:19:46 PM
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Hi TI,
Well to confuse the issue further(not intended)my path of Kundalini Maha Yoga does not teach samyama as it also states that it is automatic within the system. When I pressed my teacher on samayama she said that although it is not taught or necessary within our system, one can use it if they wish.We also practice japa which my sadguru told me that the aim of japa is samadhi.I have to disagree that one needs 144 breaths to achieve samadhi as sometimes I can fall into this state in minutes by intent.Whatever resonates with you is correct providing you are getting results. quote:
The invitation here is to do what is necessary to unfold from within, and express the Truth in daily life in your own way.
I couldn't agree more with Yogani on this.
L&L
Dave |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 11:20:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Hey TI, I'll go for a ride through conceptland, a short one anyway. And Yogani, "It's working." Slowly.
We use the mantra as the object in meditation. The mantra is a very short-lived object, as far as objects go. It lasts a few seconds at most, and then it's gone. That is the sense in which Yogani wrote that our attention is not held for long. The sustained concentration in deep meditation is the returning to the mantra every time we're off it, for 20 minutes. If we used a rock as our object, we might focus our attention once, and then sustain it for a long period of time until samadhi. But with the mantra, we focus attention repeatedly for short periods of time until samadhi. This has certain advantages, like the object 'disappearing' after every repetition. And like the object being an intention in our own mind rather than an external perception. As for samyama... surely at some point you came out of your state of samadhi to write this post. And why not have the first thought coming out of samadhi be the intention of "Love" rather than whatever random thought pops the bubble? Until one day we realize, our intentions no longer pop the bubble. In any case, like Yogani said, you don't need to understand the mechanics, or pefectly define the process in order for it to work. These are just concepts which describe a simple practice. Eventually the sanskrit terms come to have a personal meaning which makes perfect sense.
Hi JDH :)
There are two different principles working here. One is the classic belief that one-pointed concentration stills the mind and produces samadhi. It takes great effort and determination. You have to train your will and get emotionally involved while relaxing every thing else.
The other principle is that, under the right conditions of relaxation and letting go, the mind is capable of following the dissolution of a thought or sound back to it's source.
I have practiced both of these methods. The first method results in an intense experience of incredible vividness, bliss and a superconscious state. The second method produces a state of white light, bliss, but no superconscious state. That's the difference.
I am trying to determine if I have been seduced by the simplicity and lack of effort of the second method. I want to know if I can stay in the white light and bliss for longer periods of time than just a split second, when the return to source occurs. I haven't been successful yet. Using that method, I only bob in and out and watch the light from afar when I'm out.
Following a sound or a thought as it dissolves while relaxing deeply and letting go is similar to falling asleep. It is a natural process which we go through every night. If we go through this process naturally, every night, then how can it lead to enlightenment? Surely we would all be enlightened by now. I've seen and been in the light many times while lying in bed, falling asleep. No effort there.
You said, "This has certain advantages, like the object disappearing after every repetition". Why is this an advantage? Thoughts disappear all of the time naturally, without any effort. Just stare at something for a while without blinking, and your visual field will turn black, dissolving the object. Isn't the purpose of Patanjali's sutras to examine the object, to become one with the object, to understand it's essence and dependant origination and know it's true essence as pure consciousness? Doesn't the subject, the object and the stream of consciousness become one? How else can you gain the corresponding siddhi? How can you do that if the object disappears? The disappearance of object is only useful if you can, at the same time as the object is disappearing, follow it back to that which it dissolves into. Isn't that how AYP's Deep Meditation works?. At some point during DM, your mind lets go, is attracted to the dissolving sound/thought/mantra and follows it back to the source.
You know, when Steven Norquist was 'enlightened' he said that he had spent many hours gazing at objects until they disappeared. Then, one day he decided to meditate on normal consciousness and instead, he disappeared.
Then again, I ask you, if you don't access the superconscious state, what good is dropping a sutra? There would be no more power there than merely wishing..
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2011 : 11:51:15 PM
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Hi BuddhiHermit :)
Thanks for your response. I don't know if I agree with most of what you have written, but I appreciate your comments just the same. :)
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
...
AYP is an energy based system, that seeks to amplify Kundalinin/chi energy until ecstasy is reached.
I thought AYP is a system that joins the energy (shakti) with silence (Siva) and that the development of silence is key.
quote:
It is understood that once this energy has been properly activated, it will initiate a process that takes the Sadhaka back to their true home - union with the Divine, to use one expression; Non-Being, to use another.
Not in all cases. Sometimes after activation, kundalini goes dormant. Other times, it gets stuck at various places or cannot break through any of the knots. Other times it will go up ida or pingala. There are also many spiritual teachers that have had experiences of kundalini as a temporary experiences that they describe as incidental to the awakening process, a passing phase. There are really all kinds of things that can happen with kundalini.
quote:
For an energy system to remain stable, it must oscillate, and in order to grow, it must take a series of homeostatic steps. In this manner, energy is stimulated into higher levels of activity, and then seeks to achieve stability at that higher level, before again adding further stimulation.
No energy system remains stable.
quote:
All of the AYP practices follow this process of intention driven activity, which is why DM does not seek to deepen silence directly.
That is not what Yogani has written. In many places Yogani has indicated many times that the purpose of DM is to cultivate inner silence.
quote:
It seeks to increase energetic activity, and will, as a byproduct, lead to greater silence. Once silence is experienced, it is further used to cycle the energy back into non-activity. I don't see much in the way of intention driven silence however, as might be found in Daoism, or as is provided through Dharana and Dhyana. That may be why so many experience quite a deal of overload.
Increasing your energetic level does not lead to greater silence. Energetic level, also known as 'winds' in Buddhism, is what disturbs the mind, produces thoughts and emotions, distractions. There are many Buddhist teachings which teach how, through correct posture, mudras and bandhas, to control the winds until they dissolve in the central channel.
quote:
...
Mind based systems use intention to move us from object-consciousness to pure awareness, and inquiry is a large part of this process. Inquiry often leads to challenge, but if inquiry is pursued deeply, challenge evaporates as understanding takes its place. This leads to a cycle of inquiry and understanding that develops wisdom.
Yes. I agree. Knowledge satisfies our desires. But only knowledge gained through experience.
quote:
In either case, while we remain physical beings, we move to ecstasy or bliss, and then return to manifest existence, thus experiencing the multi variant cycles of being and non-being.
My path has been primarily Mind based; however, in order to be wholly here, I find it necessary to exercise the physical and energetic bodies as well, which is where AYP practices have value for me. I would echo Yogani's observation, that regular sadhana helps us to turn circling thoughts into spirals of growth.
Namaste
I can't argue with that :)
Regular practice is key. Earnestness and effort will get you there.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 12:12:42 AM
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Hi Dave :)
Thanks for your words.
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
...
I have to disagree that one needs 144 breaths to achieve samadhi as sometimes I can fall into this state in minutes by intent.
More or less, I agree with you about that. Mainly because there are many levels of samadhi. Usually it takes me about 5 minutes before my body dissolves. Then, another 7 minutes before the dreamworld appears. At four breaths per minute for 144 breaths, it would take a consecutive stream of consciousness 36 minutes to achieve samadhi. In my case, I have hit very deep forms of samadhi in only a few minutes of uninterupted concentration. The statement also doesn't consider the level of expertise that the practitioner might be at. But I guess it is useful because it exemplifies the fact that one must sustain concentration.
quote:
Whatever resonates with you is correct providing you are getting results. quote:
The invitation here is to do what is necessary to unfold from within, and express the Truth in daily life in your own way.
I couldn't agree more with Yogani on this.
L&L
Dave
Agreed.
Oh, I was going to ask you. A few months ago I bought the Chakra Bhedan 1 DVD from Sri Anandi Ma (Dhyan Yogi). It is a workshop about developing the first two chakras. The main gist was that one uses the bija seed mantras on all of the chakras in sequence and does so while performing bhastrika until one passes out.
I found this rather disturbing and quite shocking. I'm having a hard time thinking that that could be any good for you. I have not tried that and can't convince myself to even consider that. Have you run into that practice with your experiences? Have you ever tried it?
:)
TI |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 03:26:39 AM
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Hello TI,
Please accept my apologies.
I had mistakenly thought you were inquiring into practices.
Namaste |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 03:42:56 AM
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Hey TI, as I thought about it more, you are right. There is no clear advantage of any particular object used. All paths lead back to the same source. Using a mantra begins in the neuro-language perceptual machinery. Using a visual object begins in the eye-brain perceptual machinery. Whatever the object, it continues to refine toward the intention of concentration. As intention itself dissolves, only the pure life force is left. I do like mantra as object because it is an intentional thought-vibration. That seems to be starting at a more refined level than a sensory input object.
I can't comment on your other questions, other than to say that in my experience, slowly but surely, these states seep out into everyday living via habitual practice. Very slowly for me, like changes are only noticeable as the seasons and years go by. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 11:58:18 AM
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Hi TI,
I can tell you that using the Bija akshars in this way is contrary to the teachings I have recived in KMY.My teacher was a child of 10 when she was in the same circle as Anandi Ma during the days of training under DhyanyogiMadhusudandasji who was the gadapati at that time.To my knowledge I am at this moment the only person outside of India who is authorised to initiate and pass on the teachings of KMY under the present gadapati DhyanyogiOmdasji who is my sadguru.
The method of using the bija mantras is to follow the breath to each chakra mentally repeating the mantra for the chakra.I advise do not under any circumstances use the bhastrika method else you may collapse.
L&L
Dave |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 2:58:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Direct experience trumps intellectual knowledge, and transcends all analysis and debate. The Truth is alive within each of us, and its cultivation is what sets us free. Scriptures and conceptual knowledge are but external reflections of That. The invitation here is to do what is necessary to unfold from within, and express the Truth in daily life in your own way.
Why is it that I'm perpetually blown away by Yogani's postings--especially those that come in response to the fervent academic inquiries of fellow neurotic seekers like me?
It's like...left hook, left hook, then boom!--right undercut, and I'm floored on the ground, blissfully knocked out by gentle blows of Truth, leading me to carry on in my maneuvers of active surrender.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2011 : 3:53:51 PM
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quote:
active surrender.
this seems contradictory |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 6:33:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Hi TI,
I can tell you that using the Bija akshars in this way is contrary to the teachings I have recived in KMY.My teacher was a child of 10 when she was in the same circle as Anandi Ma during the days of training under DhyanyogiMadhusudandasji who was the gadapati at that time.To my knowledge I am at this moment the only person outside of India who is authorised to initiate and pass on the teachings of KMY under the present gadapati DhyanyogiOmdasji who is my sadguru.
The method of using the bija mantras is to follow the breath to each chakra mentally repeating the mantra for the chakra.I advise do not under any circumstances use the bhastrika method else you may collapse.
L&L
Dave
Hi Dave :)
Thank you for the information. Also, thank you for posting all that you have on this forum, including your shaktipat experiences. I appreciated reading about your experienced.
Yes, not that I fear it, but I am concerned that, were I to try that practice, that I may fall over and hit my head. I am also concerned that performing bhastikra until you pass out probably isn't that good for the circulatory/blood pressure system.. might lead to stroke or other imbalances.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2011 : 7:03:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
...
Whatever the object, it continues to refine toward the intention of concentration. As intention itself dissolves, only the pure life force is left. I do like mantra as object because it is an intentional thought-vibration. That seems to be starting at a more refined level than a sensory input object.
...
Hi JDH :)
What you wrote there has caused me to want to write about this experience, which I had last weekend.
I drove out to "the hill", a place in the countryside which exists on the top of a large hill. From that vantage point, you can see for miles all the way around. Rolling farm land, a spectacular river valley, wide open sky and lots of nature. And, it is very quiet there. The silence is so great, you can hear yourself think.
I sat in the car and decided to spend some time watching my thoughts. A thought would come, another one would branch out from it and so on. I started to trace the thoughts back to the original thought that started the chain. I kept watching my thoughts and tracing them back.
Gradually there were fewer and fewer thoughts. I sat there and watched. After about 45 minutes, I decided to think of the "I am" and watch it. When I did that, the "I am" appeared, but it did not have the same texture or consistency as the other thoughts that I had been watching. Instead, it looked like a golden electric light surrounded by clarity. It looked like an electric charge without any wires. Pure electricity. Like frozen golden lightning.
I played with this for a while, noticing a regular thought and then noticing the "I am". The difference is remarkable. Regular thoughts are semi-opaque. They have a texture in them, sort of like a veil. The "I am", on the other hand, is alive.
Later that night, I remembered what Nisargadatta had written about the "I am". He has written many times that the "I am" is not a thought.
Of course, then I started reflecting about the implications for mantra repetition, whether or not there would be any differences or concerns by using the "I am" for mantra meditation. In my final analysis, I concluded that the "I am" can be sounded, and then one can focus on the sound or the vibration.
But, if one focuses on the meaning of the "I am", or the thought of the "I am", and they find the golden electric lightning of the "I am", I would think that the meditator, at that point, is no longer doing simple mantra meditation but experiencing something entirely different.
So, I would agree that all objects are probably the same, except for the "I am".
The other thing I realized is the beauty of silence. Each and every sound you hear in daily life is not only an 'attractor of attention' but it is 'a stopping point or veil' which prevents you from seeing beyond. Makes me want to construct a sound booth to meditate in. :)
:)
TI |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2011 : 12:18:56 PM
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Hi TI,
When we recieve shaktipat from guruji he instructs us to start with bhastrika to raise the energy but cautions those with high blood pressure not to overdo and only at a slow pace, certainly not until one passes out.This is only for about 30 seconds/1 minute max.Then he plays Divine Sound and walks around the room giving shaktipat, sometimes returning several times to each person.
L&L
Dave |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 4:27:04 PM
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Hi Maheswari
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
active surrender.
this seems contradictory
You may want to review the purple Samyama book (which I just reread for the second time on my flights to and from the Malibu AYP retreat this weekend. It explains all about active surrender.
Love!
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2011 : 11:14:34 PM
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To no one in particular,
In praise of reasoning, knowledge and light...
Mary of Bethany asked him, "Will the thirst for knowledge ever be quenched?" Jesus said, "When once you have drunk from the spring of knowledge, you will return again and again, for each time your thirst is satisfied, a new thirst will grow, greater than the first. The more you drink, the greater will be your desire to drink, but in the intensity of your desire, you will be filled. I tell you the truth when I say that whoever seeks will find, and the finding will cause him to seek, but in the seeking is hidden the meaning of Life."
Jesus said, "I have ignited a spark in this world, and I will nourish it until it blazes into Eternal Light."
Jesus said, "The shadows of this world are perceived by mortals, and they think they know Truth, but the Reality which casts the shadows is hidden from them, and they do not perceive the Light. I tell you the truth when I say that only when you perceive shadows as shadows, and search the Light, will you perceive the Reality which is God."
:)
TI
Reasoning is harmful
To fools;
It ruins their good fortune
And splits open their heads.
The Dhammapada
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 06:08:18 AM
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Greetings and Peace to All
From my understanding, what separates functional concentration from meditation is that meditation is single pointed attention on GOD |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2011 : 1:32:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Reasoning is harmful
To fools;
It ruins their good fortune
And splits open their heads.
The Dhammapada
Glad to have you back. |
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Patanjali's Sutras and Samyama questions
