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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 5:34:22 PM
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hello,I am just curious if overload are a common problem in other meditations than mantra meditation.I know in other meditations many people meditate for MANY hours each day,but I havent heard any talk about overload.it is rather the concept of the more the better.
Something I notice after doing anapanasati is when breath get VERY deep and long you will feel the energy circulate strongly in the body.In mantra the energy more builds up without any circulating.I was thinking this might be the reason that mantra meditaion is easy to get overload from.And maybe thats why it feels more powerfull than for example breath meditation.in breath meditation the energy doesnt bulid up the pressure that gives overload because it circulates when you are meditating
any thoughts?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 9:49:45 PM
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| Yes, i haven't heard of overload in other systems without mantra. I am acquainted with SRF (yogananda), and know people from Buddhism. Both say the longer the better, sometimes they do eight hours! |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2011 : 01:50:23 AM
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| I just skimmed AYP Support Forum 2005-2010, the e-book, using the key word "overload," and this is what I gleaned. We have had "overload refugees" from other systems. Seems that what makes a system of practices prone to overload if overdone is a combination like the AYP SBP and DM. AYP is designed for two short practice sits a day with judicious self-pacing, and then living ordinary life. Mixing AYP with other systems that call for significantly longer sits, or for focusing on crown rather than ajna/root channel, or becoming hermit-like is risking overload. AYP is a marathon approach, not a short sprint. |
Edited by - bewell on Oct 26 2011 02:00:38 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2011 : 02:02:40 AM
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| in Sivananda tradition ...there is no mentioning of overlaod...it is advised to do only 2 sittings (20 to 30 minutes) using the personal ishta mantra ...also it is recommended to do mantra japa during daily activies...the more japa the better.....but it is very clear that one should keep his/her daily activities.....also Sivananda tradition uses lots of grounding techniques like daily longs hours of asanas and strong manual karma yoga work at the ashram.... |
Edited by - maheswari on Oct 26 2011 02:22:54 AM |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2011 : 12:03:32 PM
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The mantra in Sivananda is quite broad, includes quite many things, even whatothers would call prayers. Also, the meditation mechanism is taught less precisely than in tantra.
However, "acoustic" matras like OM (or "acoustic" personal mantras) whose sound pattern actually triggers a deep relaxation response in the nervous system even when not pronounced aloud, can overload some people.
Probably, that's due to taking the mind deeper. The sound can go on echoing for quite a while semi-automatically in the mind, even with too little awareness. |
Edited by - HathaTeacher on Oct 27 2011 12:06:24 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2011 : 7:26:28 PM
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Also, pranayama is notorious for causing bad overloads. The reason is it fools with your breathing which is closely tied to prana. Too much or too little oxygen gets to the brain, so the person feels almost immediate
effects. So it is common for impatient people to think they will get enlightened quickly by practicing pranayama for hours. They think it is harmless, because it is just breathing, right?
Wrong. The results are often devastating, and often cause some kind of insanity that can last years. Your breathing patterns are not something to fool around with for very long at a time. Having said that, short periods of Spinal Breathing Pranayama as taught in Yogani's lessons and books is safe and beneficial.
Another reason for keeping pranayama short is that results can be delayed, so short practices gives you time to return to normal life and see the results of your practices without risking overload creeping up on you. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2011 : 03:23:20 AM
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quote:
Also, pranayama is notorious for causing bad overloads....The results are often devastating, and often cause some kind of insanity that can last years.
very true....to be perfectly honest in the sivananda avanced teacher training course we did daily one hour advanced pranayamas (bhastrika etc...)...but instructors and swamis at the course warned us repeatedly to stop all these practices right after we finish the course.cause these practices can be harmful and lead to insanity in case practised too much and without the daily supervsion of an enlgihtened hatha yoga teacher ...
so one is advised to stick only to kapalabathi and analoma viloma...but now i am only doing SB cause the TGIY plus it is short,safe and benefcial |
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2011 : 10:32:47 PM
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| You know, overload is not every yogi's invariable problem. This may be an issue early on. At an advanced level of practice, after years of advanced yoga, there is no overload. So early on what you say may be a valid concern, and I realize AYP stresses this concern, but on the other hand don't be too fearful about bad results. The system becomes strong, and you will go "all the way" eventually. If you go around being fearful of insanity, what the ... |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2011 : 11:34:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Amfreenow
At an advanced level of practice, after years of advanced yoga, there is no overload.
How could anyone possibly know this? |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 02:20:20 AM
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quote:
If you go around being fearful of insanity, what the ...
it is not fear...it is just practicing wisely....with too much pranayama,too much spritiual reading.too much enquiry, too much yogic practices,too much bhakti (yes even bhakti can lead to overalod!)... one feels there is something that does not feel right...one feels that one is taking in too many things at the same time without assimilating them...the inner voice immediately tells you to self pace so one has to be honest witn oneself and listen to that voice and act accordingly...otherwise overlaod will happen ... and overload ranges from irritabilty (ex: oh i cant stand anybody...i cant stand those "ignorant" people who dont practice yoga)...to uncontrolable kundalini symptoms ...etc....
quote:
At an advanced level of practice, after years of advanced yoga, there is no overload.
i dont know about that...but i think that when Yogani created AYP it was for grounding purposes....all the yogis go out and get active helping others because there is so much spontaneous energy that it needs to be grounded...so they benefit others and themselves too...
just my 2 cents
dear Yogani correct me if i am wrong or if i drifted from the topic |
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sivasambho
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 05:28:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
If you go around being fearful of insanity, what the ...
it is not fear...it is just practicing wisely....with too much pranayama,too much spritiual reading.too much enquiry, too much yogic practices,too much bhakti (yes even bhakti can lead to overalod!)... one feels there is something that does not feel right...one feels that one is taking in too many things at the same time without assimilating them...the inner voice immediately tells you to self pace so one has to be honest witn oneself and listen to that voice and act accordingly...otherwise overlaod will happen ... and overload ranges from irritabilty (ex: oh i cant stand anybody...i cant stand those "ignorant" people who dont practice yoga)...to uncontrolable kundalini symptoms ...etc....
quote:
At an advanced level of practice, after years of advanced yoga, there is no overload.
i dont know about that...but i think that when Yogani created AYP it was for grounding purposes....all the yogis go out and get active helping others because there is so much spontaneous energy that it needs to be grounded...so they benefit others and themselves too...
just my 2 cents
dear Yogani correct me if i am wrong or if i drifted from the topic
I could relate to this advice. self pacing is tough, you listen to your inner voice but if you arent persistent in the practises again, one could easily fall into lethargy, past behavioural patterns etc....
Thanks Maheswari. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 07:52:32 AM
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Hi all,
Yoga in the Sivananda tradition (at least in the Sivananda Yoga Vedanta tradition that I trained in) is carefully regulated to avoid energetic overload. We were advised not to go beyond 8 seconds I believe on each inhale or exhale with anuloma viloma to avoid energetic overload. Also the mantras given out do not include any of the more powerful bija mantras such as Shree. Meditations are kept short, and as others have mentioned there is a lot of emphasis on karma yoga and physical activity for grounding. Although advanced pranayamas are taught, they come with the warning that they can only be practiced under the supervision of a teacher who is qualified in advanced pranayama.
AYP does incorporate advanced pranayama, and mantra meditation using an advanced bija mantra, which is why there is so much stress on managing the practice carefully. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 08:49:57 AM
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I think it is wise to be vigilant for overload. The reason is I think a lot of people have overload and don't know it. I am one of those people who gets lightheaded, ungrounded, irritable, etc, and I would never thought of spirituality as a cause of it before I came here.
Then when I saw so many people talking about it, I watch when i have those feelings, and can often trace it directly to practices. I back off, and they go away.
So I would speculate that there are probably many others in my position. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 10:06:00 AM
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Hi All:
The truth is that we are given about all we can handle, no matter how advanced we may become. As our sense of self expands to encompass all that is around us, extending eventually to the infinite, so too does the scope of our spiritual journey. While our ability to be a channel of divine energy/love expands, so too does the energy coming through. If we have gone from being a 100 watt light bulb to being a 1000 watt light bulb, there is still going to be 10,000 watts available to come through us, or 1,000,000 watts. 
So, is it necessary for advanced yogis/yoginis to self-pace? Yes, absolutely.
It is true that we become mentally and physically more resilient with the rise of abiding inner silence (witness) and the other benefits of yoga, and an ever-increasing channel of divine love. But that does not mean no more challenges for the body/mind, which is always going to be subject to the ups and downs of life, in addition to the ever-increasing divine flow coming from within. So the advanced practitioner must self-pace like anyone else, perhaps even more-so at times. Each must navigate according to the particular characteristics their ongoing purification and opening. To assume otherwise could be a pitfall of mind, and as with any false assumption, we will pay the price sooner or later. Better to pay attention to what is happening with our body/mind, no matter how much dispassion we may have living in our increasing pure bliss consciousness.
There have been a few discussions about this here in the forums -- recognitions of the fact that life in ever-expanding ecstatic bliss does not mean we can ignore the needs of the body/mind.
So practice wisely, no matter where you are on your spiritual journey, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
PS: For a detailed discussion on pitfalls of the mind we may run into along our path, see here: http://www.aypsite.com/329.html
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2011 : 11:49:21 AM
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@Christi...very true
@Etherfish same thing happened with me....i did NOT know i was in overload! overload is not only kundalini fireworks,it has aspects that are harder to pinpoint cause they seem "normal".
usually i get irritable (this still happens from time to time...i just do asanas a lot ...or go out with people,,,or do heavy cleaning housework and it works fine)
BUT in 2008 after a long period of serious overload i wanted to leave everything and go live in an ashram for good... at that time i used to think that having a job,hanging out with people and friends NOT into yoga,taking care of my elderly parents and even having sex was a waste of my "precious" time and would delay my spiritual progress....but my circumctances did not allow me to leave (nothing is a coincidence) so i had to face and cope with all what i was running from...in the end i learned (the hard way  ) that whatever "unspiritual" things we face in life can be turned into something positive and be a boost in our journey if we combine the correct mental attitude (inner silence) WITH the correct activity ...
@ Yogani: only recently when i came to ayp and read ayp lessons that i was able to understand what had happened with me in 2008 ...i am very grateful,thank you... |
Edited by - maheswari on Oct 29 2011 5:04:14 PM |
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 06:06:57 AM
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| Although over load can usually happen along the way, and did happen to me too once upon a time, nevertheless, with full Realization, it ceases to occur. In full equanimity, at the very pinnacle of full development of Crown/Ajna consciousness, and total equilibrium, there can be no overload. By definition. Put another way, for those still moving along the way, of course there will be overload, and though it's good advice for most yogis to watch out for it, let's at a minimum, agree to disagree. There should be wiggle room for both opinions on this. Hope this helps. |
Edited by - Amfreenow on Nov 05 2011 06:46:46 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 08:07:00 AM
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amfreenow,
I'm glad you have reached a point where there is never overload and there are no more changes. Most of us at AYP feel we are constantly improving, forever. But this is "alternate approaches" after all, so good place to mention it.
For anyone who does not feel "perfected" yet, maybe "overload" is not the best word for it, as it often doesn't feel like overload. I recognized after starting AYP and following Yogani's advice on overload, that I had experienced those symptoms for years before AYP and had no control over them because I did not know the cause. I am one of those people who experience spiritual experiences without feeling I am a spiritual person. So "overload" was periodically just a part of my life; I felt I was just a weird person for no reason. So that's where AYP helped a lot by straightening out mental habits that i didn't know I needed to change.
So amfreenow, as your username implies, of course you are free to have an opinion different than AYP. At AYP the view of the path is that we are always improving and never reach a static, "perfect" state. But if you ever reach a permanent state of perfection, you can always change your opinion at that point, like amfreenow, where there is no need for any activity that could cause overload, hence no overload. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 09:25:12 AM
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Hi Amfreenow:
The overloads of others are also yours, so there is more to discover. We can rest on our laurels for a while if we wish, but it will not last. There is always going to be more. Freedom is there, but is going to be relative to the whole of life, which is also us. This is the essence of Bodhisattva, which is what drives the enlightened to serve others. It is the realization that individual enlightenment is limited.
True enlightenment is about the awakening of the whole. From that perspective, to say we are beyond further purification and opening is a mental pitfall. If we are in truth the whole of life, then this cannot be so. There is more to be done. While there is such a thing as personal freedom, real enlightenment is about everyone else. So if your neighbor is overdoing practices, overloading energetically, and needing to self-pace, then so are you. Compassion moves us beyond our personal freedom to the freedom of all. There is no getting around it. Unity is not a piecemeal thing.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 09:29:05 AM
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| i like that...thank you Yogani |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 12:09:42 PM
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Thanks Yogani,
That puts something together for me I didn't realize; because my "overload" symptoms, especially before AYP, pointed me towards being anti-social. I'm still a loner now, but my interactions with others are natural and fulfilling instead of distasteful, judgmental etc. My natural tendencies are not obliterated, but transformed to more positive expressions. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 1:59:27 PM
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quote:
I'm still a loner now
are not we all a bit like that?
Love
maheswari |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2011 : 6:11:33 PM
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| To add another perspective to the original question. It has been my experience that after meditation is done for a long time, all types of meditation and all types of practices are capable of creating overload. In my experience, pranayama, mantra meditation, mindfulness etc. can easily create overload after just a few minutes even though it has been 6 months without regular practice. The mind easily goes to inner silence due to years of practice and the type of practice employed matters less over time. |
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Amfreenow
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2011 : 3:48:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Amfreenow:
The overloads of others are also yours, so there is more to discover. We can rest on our laurels for a while if we wish, but it will not last. There is always going to be more. Freedom is there, but is going to be relative to the whole of life, which is also us. This is the essence of Bodhisattva, which is what drives the enlightened to serve others. It is the realization that individual enlightenment is limited.
True enlightenment is about the awakening of the whole. From that perspective, to say we are beyond further purification and opening is a mental pitfall. If we are in truth the whole of life, then this cannot be so. There is more to be done. While there is such a thing as personal freedom, real enlightenment is about everyone else. So if your neighbor is overdoing practices, overloading energetically, and needing to self-pace, then so are you. Compassion moves us beyond our personal freedom to the freedom of all. There is no getting around it. Unity is not a piecemeal thing.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Thanks for the scolding. Haven't needed any pacing though, these last many years. Let's be open to all possibilities, even if beyond our own experiential set and opinions. In the spirit of "Other Systems and Alternate Approaches" if that is possible to have open minded discussion with each other.
Though there is a continuum to our psychospiritual development,
nevertheless, there are different plateaus of functioning(yogically speaking) with different needs and routines. Some of us may, after years of committed lifestyle and practices, reach a tangible endstage, recognizable to those that go to those levels themselves, and yet still unimaginable and thus judged doubtful, for the rest who do not yet have the experiential basis to know what is possible. So keep an open mind.
And Yes, our goal is to uplift all others through our individual efforts, and beyond egotistical achieving. This isn't about individual accomplishments. Thanks all for your consideration. Sorry if I highjacked this thread. Hope this helps. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2011 : 5:53:33 PM
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Hi Amfreenow:
No scolding intended.
I'm happy to hear your experience is so steady. Most would prefer that -- enlightenment with no hassle. But it is not so common. An argument can be made that there is no such thing, only the illusion of it. Plateaus are certainly possible (common even) before next steps are undertaken. I never met an end state that was not a plateau.
Of course, with sound practices, our inner experience of Self can become supremely and permanently steady and blissful with the establishment of full-time abiding inner silence. There is no argument on that point.
However, regarding the energetic side, where overloads are observed, I fail to see how there can be no external symptoms (body/mind included) of continuing purification and opening occurring as the unity experience arises. That is, as we perceive directly that we and the world around us are going through the same dynamic of purification and opening. Both are within each other, so once we are individually free, then there is the whole rest of the cosmos, which is not locally contained in time and space, except through this body/mind. So the scope of physical energetics is virtually unlimited, even while the infinity of pure bliss consciousness is handily contained in one body/mind. How's that for a paradox?
My experience with the energetics has been that the local capacity has always been increasing, meaning the neurobiology's ability to serve as a channel for "stillness in action" has kept increasing and refining over time. At the same time, so has the range of influence beyond this body/mind. That increasing range of influence in relation to the condition of the nervous system has been the determining factor in whether or not energy excesses have been experienced. This is why I have always said that advanced practitioners will find themselves self-pacing also, because they are influencing (and being influenced by) a far wider space than the individual body/mind.
This sort of expanding energy dynamic can be found in the scriptures also, and no great sage has been beyond it's effects, though most have borne it very well, due to the eternal inner silence they knew themselves to be. And this is not to say such experiences have been unwanted. As I mentioned earlier, service is the next step after individual freedom has dawned. We are all given about all we can handle, no matter how far we have gone on the path.
Personally, if I felt I had reached a level of energetic stability like you have described, I'd probably be off opening a few more realms of beings than would be completely comfortable, and paying a price for it. That may be a difference between us.
There is always a choice to do more, or less, and that will be according to individual inclination. For this reason, I will always be skeptical of anyone who claims to be at an end point, because there is no end point in sight. Is the entire cosmos enlightened yet? There is so much more to do!
Nevertheless, each is entitled to pick their spot and level of comfort, and it is to be respected. It will surely not be the same for everyone, and it should not be presented as such. That is the main point.
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2011 : 9:24:57 PM
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Wow, very interesting Yogani. Thanks.
a couple more small points:
Let's say for the sake of argument that someone feels they have reached an end point spiritually, and so will never experience overload again.
This position is somewhat doubtful because it is attempting to predict the future (you can't prove a negative). But for this argument we will allow it to be hypothetically true.
There is absolutely no basis for applying this same principle to anyone else! If there is one thing common in these forums, it is that everyone's path is different.
---------------
There is likely to be some difficulty communicating about this subject because the terminology is not universally accepted. At AYP lots of people have experienced similar things, and so we agree it is called "overload". We see from this thread that other systems experience the same thing and use other words.
The whole subject of spiritual enlightenment is full of vague, undefined terms. We can't even universally agree on who is enlightened. So we pretty much have to communicate on the basis of passing on what works and what we are experiencing, rather than the kind of language you would find in a science book, laying down the consensus of what is true about a subject universally. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 02:14:01 AM
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thank you Yogani...very enlightening...
in short,what i understood is: That is infinite...when the individual is free,he has crossed the boundaries of his limited being present in time and space...all is Oneness...he beomes the infinite and so he is naturally inclined to purify this infinite ,by helping out all living beings that he meets...this enlightened jiva will still feel the distrubances of this purification going on in "others",he is even willing to "suffer" to help "others" but he can handle it very well cause he is established like a rock in inner silence....this brings to my mind all the great gurus and sages that not only helped "others" but even took the entire karma of "others",and exhausted the 'sufferings" of such karma in order to promote public welfare so to speak...
that is why here in ayp,each one according to his current level of "enightenment" is spontaneously helping others in the forums,some are doing lessons and books translations,some are taking care of their family,a sick relative,teaching yoga in the place they work etc etc...all of this is coming from the bliss,inner silence and Love we are feeling....and there are no boundaries,it keeps on growing
Love
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overload in other meditations
