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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 11:19:37 PM
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Hi Etherfish,
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
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Having said that, meditation and enlightenment doesn't really yield to analysis since it belongs to the nagual.
...
Yes, flood the tonal and the nagual appears.
Do you remember when Don Juan told Carlos that you can reveal the most astounding piece of knowledge to someone and if they don't have enough personal power, it doesn't make a bit of difference?
:)
TI |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 11:25:36 PM
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Also Don Juan didn't do a lot of explaining about the nagual. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 12:20:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Hi TI,
I think I am kind of like "in love with you" or something. I have a particular weakness for people with high IQ. My IQ is about 100, "normal", that is right in the middle of the distribution, and most frequently occurring. I suspect that most people on this forum have higher IQ than me. I wish I had a stronger intellectual aptitude because I enjoy academics and I could have gone much farther if I could have been a stronger learner. When I get to interact with others who are exceptionally high IQ, I tend to become an admirer.
I read your autobiographical sharing with particular interest. It sounds like family dysfunction and loss of your father made it difficult for you to really put your high intellectual aptitude to maximum use. I am curious: Did you go to college? How was it? And I am wondering: What is your living situation now? What is your employment? Do you share a house? Do you see people from your family of origin?
Bewell
Hi Be,
You know, I wrote a reply which elaborated on my personal history, and just before I was goint to hit the "PostNewReply" button, the power went out, my computer died and I lost what I had written. The second time, I rewrote everything but when I tried to post, I was no longer signed in. I hit the "Go back and correct the problem" link and discovered that I had lost everything again. I'm not typing all that again. It is a sign.
I probably shouldn't have posted as much about my ego's personal history as I have. A warrior (Carlos Casteneda) erases his personal history. Buddha said to practice equanimity and as such, we shouldn't cling to our personal stories or keep resurecting them..
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 12:33:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Good call woosa, the Qabalah is indeed a good path for those who over analyze. I used to have friends who were into the qabalah and OMG it was hard to "understand".It seemed like they were trying to discover how everything is connected or something. Reminds me of someone wanting to take the stairs up the empire state building. I mean, exercise is good, but too much is agonizing. One reason I like meditation also!
and about intelligence: "IQ" tests were made by intelligent people. If you stop and think about that, you will see where I'm going. They pick stuff that is easy for them and hard for others. Psychologists are discovering that IQ tests are skewed in ways that don't recognize all forms of intelligence. Imagine a very intelligent person is born into a tribe that lives in the jungle. An IQ test would show him to be a moron, even though he would thrive in the jungle where an intellectual would quickly die. That is because intelligence is a propensity that is formed by culture. So if your intelligence has formed along lines that are not generally accepted by your culture, you won't be considered intelligent.
Needless to say, i am not at all impressed by intelligence.
Hi Etherfish,
That is why they tried to invent culturally unbiased IQ tests.
The way I look at it, IQ is a measurement of "how long it takes a person to arrive at certain conclusions", because I believe everyone is capable of understanding everything, given the correct context and sufficient time.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 12:35:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chas
Thanks TI for the clarification. Glad to know you weren't intending to be disrespectful or offensive. It just seemed that way to me. I was merely pointing out what appeared to be coming across, from one particular perspective. Regarding the mantra, repeating it, subvocalization and what not; what i do is this: pratayahara -> resting in stillness; from naked awareness/stillness/silence, then starting the third enhanced mantra (shree om shree om ayam ayam namah namah), subvocalizing it for a few moments, back to resting in silent awareness, aware of the mantra from that. Mantra runs on autopilot (mind simply repeats it), I rest as silent awareness. That's all.
Wishing you the best,
Chas
Hi Chas, :)
Gee, I never thought of meditating like that. I have had times when a melody would stick in my head and it was very hard to stop it. I didn't realize that a person could do that with the mantra. I will have to try that..
Thanks for your comments.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 02:14:58 AM
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Hi Yogani, :)
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi TI:
Unfortunately, intellectual intelligence counts for nothing in yoga.
Does it?
From Patanjali's Yoga Sutras:
link: http://reluctant-messenger.com/yoga-sutras-4.htm
quote:
29] The Yogi who develops non-attachment even to the evolution of the highest form of intelligence and remains free from desires and has no selfish interests or motivations, and maintains at all times discrimination and attentive intelligence will be a rain cloud of justice and virtue and will achieve union with the supreme spirit.
This is interesting, about Buddhi Yoga:
link: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduis...ddhiyoga.asp
quote:
Buddhiyoga is the practice of uniting the mind with the higher consciousness through the proper use of buddhi, the power of discretion and understanding.
...
"Buddhi" is the intelligence that exists in all of us in contrast to 'chitta" or pure consciousness. Buddhi gives us the power to discriminate and decide what is good for us and what is not. It is the force behind our wisdom and our reactions to the outside world.
Here is some more about Buddhi:
link: http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/vol...sss23-16.pdf
quote:
In the journey of life, the Buddhi (intelligence) is most important--"Nischayaatmaka Buddhi."
The intelligence is the determinant in life. In daily life, many difficulties and problems arise like
waves, which man has to solve. What is the basic agency for resolving these difficulties. It is the
Buddhi. Without the intervention of the Buddhi none of our problems can be solved. The man
filled with doubts perishes "Samsayaatma vinasyathi." Because the Buddhi helpsto end doubts, it
has been described as one beyond the sense organs--"Buddhi graahyam athindriyam."
...
Another name attributed to Buddhi is Vijnana (confirmed knowledge). Vijnana helps to decide
the truth relating to external objects. As it investigates internal processes also and comes to
decisions on them, it is not entirely correct to describe it as Vijnana. Vijnana relates to the
phenomenal objective world. Buddhi relates to the subtle realm of the internal. Hence the role of
the Buddhi (intelligence) has to be correctly understood.
You said:
quote:
In fact, it is a liability, as we have been discussing. Perhaps this is why Jesus said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."
From an intellectual point of view, I don't think that statement has anything to do with intelligence. I think the term "meek" is more the opposite of "wickedness", espescially if taken within the context of the preceeding and following lines from the King James Version of the Bible:
37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
37:13 The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
However, I'm no expert on the Bible, and I'm a little leary of a book that so many have written, misinterpreted and metamorphed throughout the ages..
quote:
Fortunately, the kind of intelligence we need for yoga is in infinite supply in all of us. All we have to do is let go into it, becoming it. This is what the simple techniques of yoga are about. There is nothing more to understand than that.
The guru is in you.
Well then, let's all increase our liability!
I like what you said in lesson 246:
quote:
Lesson 246 - Intelligence, Bhakti and Genius
From: Yogani
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:33pm
New Members: It is recommended you read from the beginning of the web
archive, as previous lessons are prerequisite to this one. The first
lesson is, "Why This Discussion?"
Q: Is it really possible to increase the intelligence doing Yoga?
What is the technique?
A: There is so much intelligence manifesting everywhere in nature.
For the most part it is automatic. We can see complex tasks being
performed constantly in the plant and animal kingdoms, not to mention
the sustenance of our own complex human bodies. The intelligence
inherent in all things seems infinite, limited only by the ability of
an earthly plant or creature to manifest it. Some say that the earth
itself is alive and oozing with intelligence.
If we take the point of view that intelligence is an infinite
reservoir residing within all of creation, then the answer to your
question is easy. Yoga opens our nervous system to what lies within
us. Here in the lessons we call it inner silence, pure bliss
consciousness, the witness, and many other things. It can be called
infinite intelligence also -- the very thing that animates all of
life. So, can yoga increase intelligence? Theoretically it seems to
be so. Not only that, experientially it seems to happen. Over the
years, there have been numerous studies on meditation that
demonstrate an increase in IQ. The Transcendental Meditation
organization has done a lot of work in this kind of research. See
http://www.tm.org/ for many studies on meditation as it relates to
improving the quality of daily life.
But there is much more to this intelligence thing than simply
increasing IQ. Intelligence is everywhere in everyone. But of what
use is it if it is not applied to a useful purpose? Intelligence
unapplied to a useful purpose is reduced to the level of parlor
tricks -- reciting the numbers in the phone book from memory, or
being able to count cards at the blackjack table. We are designed for
far more than that. What it takes is desire -- focused desire, and
this is the province of yoga also. Without the benefit of a high
ideal and focused desire (bhakti) leading us to daily practice of
effective yoga methods, we will not go far anyway, not far beyond the
parlor tricks. So the desire for a higher purpose comes first. Then
we can have it all -- the infinite intelligence within us, and the
fruit of bhakti combined with intelligence, which is genius. By
surrendering to our higher purpose, we go to a new level that is
beyond raw intelligence.
Thomas Edison said, "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration."
This means that genius is more about relentless devotion to one's
ideal than about one's inherent intelligence. Genius is about more
than IQ. It is about constant devotion our highest ideal.
I think few of us expect to be writing symphonies out of thin air
like Mozart could. Or single-handedly deriving the next level of
physics like Einstein did. Yet, each of us has within us the ability
to be a genius in something -- something that resonates deep in us.
We each have a gift to share, and if we commit to that, we can do it.
Our effort may not be seen and applauded by the world at large. It
will not necessarily be on the evening news. But it will surely be
seen by those we love and care for, and everyone on this earth will
benefit greatly. Love, cultivated to its heights through daily yoga
practices and shared in everyday life, is genius. A very special kind
of genius. It is the genius of enlightenment -- the genius of God --
pure intelligence openly shared as overflowing love. It is ours for
the asking.
You know, a funny thing happened a few weeks ago. I opened a fortune
cookie at dinner one night, and it made me weep. Here is what it
said:
"Intelligence does what it can. Genius does what it must."
Why would a simple saying like that make me weep? Perhaps it touched
a nerve. Clearly intelligence alone isn't the prerequisite for
finding happiness in this world. To be devoted to a high ideal is.
That is the purpose of yoga -- to open us to the highest purpose
within us, to aid us in doing what me must.
So, yoga does much more than simply increase intelligence. It
cultivates genius in us -- intelligence applied relentlessly toward
our highest purpose -- ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love...
With the methods of meditation, pranayama, and the other practices in
these lessons, we can make the journey.
Thank you for your inspiring question. May your yoga carry you beyond
intelligence to genius ... Enjoy!
And now, I would like to quote the Dalai Lama in the defense of people who analyze:
From "Stages of Meditation" The Dalai Lama:
quote:
Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analyzing the entity of things specifically, but merely meditate on the elimination of mental activity, cannot avert conceptual thoughts and also cannot realize identitylessness because they lack the light of wisdom. If the fire of consciousness knowing phenomena as they are is produced from individual analysis of suchness, then like the fire produced by rubbing wood it will burn the wood of conceptual thought. The Buddha has spoken in this way.
In order to understand the true nature of things, it is vital that a practioner use intelligence and wisdom in the process of examination.
:)
TI |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 04:53:18 AM
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TI, thanks for sharing more about your journey. Some of it sounds familiar to me (Castaneda, etc.) That's really sweet that you are into Jesus  and I understand your situation with the I AM meditation... Not that you asked my opinion, but for what it's worth, I concur with Yogani. You are obviously brilliant and unfortunately, that is a liability because it means your monkey mind is that much more active and powerful and able to run amuck, and analyzing stuff more will only encourage it. On the one hand I would be tempted to say that a "simple" practice such as the one I am using which is MERELY BREATHING might work for you; on the other hand, you then respond by analyzing why or why not it should work and how it might compare to other approaches, yada yada. So the monkey mind is going to run with it no matter what. You will always be able to find another angle to analyze and/or object to. Truly, you have my sympathy. The monkey mind used to really piss me off, but fortunately I am not as smart as you so mine was not quite as out of control and annoying. Maybe your situation is an argument for Grace; maybe just pray with all your heart, cry even, if you can dredge up some tears, and God will have pity on you. I truly wish you all the best and if there was anything I could do to help, I would. I could send you something astrally or in dreams but you would probably just analyze that to death, too. Much Love to you, bro. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 05:13:00 AM
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Dear TI
quote:
and maintains at all times discrimination and attentive intelligence
enlightenment is not only for the intelligent or for the educated...many realized yogis were illiterate...Patanjali and the Dalai Lama do not mean the intelligence we undertsand as being a straight A's student...or a sucessful business man...or having great book knowledge...these people are inteligent in daily life but may totally lack awarness |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 07:30:56 AM
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It's funny how people ignore the most important part:
"The Yogi who develops non-attachment even to the evolution of the highest form of intelligence"
This has to be achieved FIRST. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 08:45:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
... my computer died and I lost what I had written. The second time, I rewrote everything but when I tried to post, I was no longer signed in. I hit the "Go back and correct the problem" link and discovered that I had lost everything again. I'm not typing all that again. It is a sign.
Cool. Thanks for giving my questions consideration. As i see it, the main thing is to be authentic, acknowledging multiple levels of experience. On one level, there is no past. On another level, what happened in college, or what happened on our families of origin can be and is a present shaper of how we live our days. I appreciate authenticity. I also accept the sign |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 09:38:11 AM
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Hi TI:
I know I'm late to the party here, and much of what's written doesn't make sense. (I haven't wrapped my head around all the vocabulary yet.) But, for what it's worth, I think I do understand the endless analysis at some level.
It seems as though you have some very specific result in mind for your practices. And, when you don't achieve that result, within your expected timeframe, you tweak your practice.
To use Yogani's analogy of digging a well, you dig as far down as you think you should have to in one spot and, when you don't find water there, you tweak your practice and start digging in another spot as far down as you think you should have to. When the water isn't there, you tweak your practice again. The problem is that you don't have a map of how far down the water lies in any particular place. So you analyze and analyze trying to figure out by reason where the water lies closest to the surface. I don't think there's a person on earth right now who can give you that map. The science of spirituality is in its infancy.
So the question is: What if you don't pick the best place to dig? Will you have faith that the water is down there somewhere, even if you're digging after 10, 20 or 30 years? Will you stick with it and keep digging in that same place? That, I think, is the essence of bhakti. But I could be wrong. 
Hey, Bewell: There are many kinds of intelligence, of which intellectual intelligence is only one. I read that you teach yoga in prisons. I have a cousin who has been locked up for 15 years, whom I visit as often as I can. I know how much he would love to have a class like that and how important it must be to the inmates you teach. That makes you a genius in my book. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 1:48:43 PM
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TI,
Your life story is very impressive. You really seem to be very intelligent. I cannot remember or quote scriptures like you.
All the questions you ask too are very intelligent; I wonder why I wasnt able to think such questions. All these come very easily to you. People like me have to struggle.
At the same time I see that you like telling people that you are intelligent and showing them your intelligent questions and analysis. Why do you feel the need to let people know all these? What do you need in return from them? Can you let go of caring what people think about you?
You can easily ask questions. But can you also so easily let go of your questions? Can you let go the expectation of perfection?
- Near |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 6:16:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lizmoran
Hey, Bewell: There are many kinds of intelligence, of which intellectual intelligence is only one. I read that you teach yoga in prisons. I have a cousin who has been locked up for 15 years, whom I visit as often as I can. I know how much he would love to have a class like that and how important it must be to the inmates you teach. That makes you a genius in my book.
Oh, thank you Liz: Your affirmation feels really good. Yes, for me Thursdays for the past two years have been jail yoga asana day. We currently have three classes, one with adult women, one with juvenile girls and one with juvenile boys. There are different challenges and different opportunities with each. But I will tell you that this past Thursday, the whole day was filled with conscious bliss. I feel much love for my good friend who got me into it. Here he is pictured on the Peace in Baltimore page:
http://peaceinbaltimore.com/
He has got super IQ as evidenced by many things including this: He can go around a room of 20 people he has not met before, hear their names once, and then at the end of introductions, say each of their names. He reads instructions for a complex asana routine, does it and remembers it seemingly without review. But like Carson has said, the blessings of IQ come with curses too.
Unfathomable karma gives us each our own specific path. Sometimes I wonder if in a past life I was exceptionally high in that cluster of aptitudes we today call "IQ," and felt the curse of being so alone, and longed to be "normal."
"You got it baby," said daddy karma, "you got it, and more!"
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Aug 10 2011 04:52:54 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2011 : 10:02:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
It's funny how people ignore the most important part:
"The Yogi who develops non-attachment even to the evolution of the highest form of intelligence"
This has to be achieved FIRST.
Hi Etherfish :)
Yes!!! Non-attachment even to evolution of the highest form of intelligence!! Glad someone is awake.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 12:00:06 AM
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Ni Nearoanoke :)
quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
TI,
Your life story is very impressive. You really seem to be very intelligent. I cannot remember or quote scriptures like you.
I don't remember scriptures, I look them up on Google, like everyone else. :)
quote:
All the questions you ask too are very intelligent; I wonder why I wasnt able to think such questions. All these come very easily to you. People like me have to struggle.
You know, I had to do put alot of effort into comparing the techniques, analyzing, wondering why this and that was different. I think you are deluding yourself when you think that this has come easily to me and that you have to struggle. This last batch of questions took me four years to solidify.
I'm sure you are just as capable of devoting your concentration to something you love. Everyone has their own special abilities.
quote:
At the same time I see that you like telling people that you are intelligent and showing them your intelligent questions and analysis.
Not really. This is a forum. I have questions and I am/was seeking answers. And aren't you being a little presumptuous, assuming that I 'like telling people..."?
I regret posting that bit about intelligence, but I was using it to qualify a point. Usually, whenever you tell people that you have something they do not, they hate you, are jealous, ostricize you and your life becomes a living hell. Actually, your tone kind of reminds me of that. So you learn to hide it, to blend in, that is, after you finally realize that perhaps some people aren't like you.
quote:
Why do you feel the need to let people know all these? What do you need in return from them?
If I was mistaken, then others might be mistaken too. I've never never been a brown noser. When something doesn't seem right to me, I usually point it out, rather than turn my back walk away. Sometimes it takes more courage to take a stand.
quote:
Can you let go of caring what people think about you?
I don't live by other people's expectations. I follow my own heart. I like it like that.
quote:
You can easily ask questions. But can you also so easily let go of your questions? Can you let go the expectation of perfection?
- Near
Once the question is answered it is easy to let it go. Isn't it?
I read somewhere that a sure sign that someone is enlightened is that the struggle has ended. There is no more seeking after that. No more questions. Perhaps that day will come for us soon...
Besides, sometimes the simple little piece of knowledge that is missing is the key that opens the box.
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 01:26:19 AM
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Hi Jamie :)
quote:
Originally posted by JamieRadha
...
On the one hand I would be tempted to say that a "simple" practice such as the one I am using which is MERELY BREATHING might work for you; on the other hand, you then respond by analyzing why or why not it should work and how it might compare to other approaches, yada yada.
I'm so happy that you've realized the merkaba, the key in the heart that makes the ascent of the lower to the higher easy, or the higher to the lower. The heart is the key, you know.
I've had lots of ecstatic conductivity coming up through the lower chakras. I've had ec from the heart to the brow. I've had ec bringing down the light to the root. I've had ec, tremendous ec just breathing in from behind the brow to the center of the head. Lately, yes, just breathing seems to activate everything. Just simple deep breathing. You hit the nail on the head.
Actually, all I have to do is pass my hands from the lower tan tien, up through the heart and to the brow, and I experience a bath of tingles, heart orgasm of sorts, any time I want.. That's enough for me. (And it is fun sending the tingles to other people too). But after a while, all the orgasm stuff, endless hours of pre-orgasmic rushes, climbing the walls, is just too much. It begins to hurt and get coarse. And, it messes up my meditations quite often.
quote:
...
but fortunately I am not as smart as you so mine was not quite as out of control and annoying. Maybe your situation is an argument for Grace; maybe just pray with all your heart, cry even, if you can dredge up some tears, and God will have pity on you.
How do you know how smart you are?
I don't need God's pity. Thanks. Jesus is always there for me. He sure gets around!
If anything, I am concerned for you, because, according to Goenka and Buddha, the fulfillment of desires only breeds more desires, and this makes it difficult to stop attachment and clinging..
From "The Discourse Summaries" by S.N. Goenka:
quote:
Simply understanding this reality at the intellectual level will not liberate anyone. It can only give inspiration to look within oneself,in order to experience truth and to find the way out of misery. This is what Siddhattha Gotama did to become a Buddha: he started observing reality within the framework of his body like a research scientist, moving from gross, apparent truth to subtler truth, to the subtlest truth. He found that whenever one develops craving, whether to keep a pleasant sensation or to get rid of an unpleasant one, and that craving is not fulfilled, then one starts suffering. And going further, at the subtlest level, he found that when seen with a fully collected mind, it is clear that attachment to the five aggregates is suffering. Intellectually one may understand that the material aggregate, the body, is not 'I', not 'mine', but merely an impersonal, changing phenomenon which is beyond one's control; actually, however, one identifies with the body, and develops tremendous attachment to it. Similarly one develops attachment to the four mental aggregates of consciousness, perception, sensation, reaction, and clings to them as 'I, mine' despite their constantly changing nature. For conventional purposes one must use the words I and 'mine', but when one develops attachment to the five aggregates, one creates suffering for oneself. Wherever there is attachment, there is bound to be misery, and the greater the attachment, the greater the misery.
There are four types of attachment that one keeps developing in life. The first is attachment to one's desires, to the habit of craving.
DAY FIVE
25
Whenever craving arises in the mind, it is accompanied by a physical sensation. Although at a deep level a storm of agitation has begun, at a superficial level one likes the sensation and wishes it to continue. This can be compared with scratching a sore: doing so will only aggravate it, and yet one enjoys the sensation of scratching. In the same way, as soon as a desire is fulfilled, the sensation that accompanied the desire is also gone, and so one generates a fresh desire in order that the sensation may continue. One becomes addicted to craving and multiplies one's misery.
Now please don't get me wrong. I've read your posts and I've seen your desire to multiply the bliss/ecstatic conductivity. I've seen that you are checking out other ways of intensifying it. This is wonderful. The stage of bliss is a level of jhana, according to Buddhist writings. For Shaila Catherine, when she hit that stage, it lasted three weeks before she finally got tired of it and sought the peace of equanimity. In order to progress into equanimity (jhana after it), one has to lose the desire and clinging to bliss/ecstatic conductivity.
You are way ahead of me in that sense. My heart isn't as open as yours, I tend to stay away from the heart because, although it makes me feel very good, gives great flows of energy and tingles, it leaves me in a state of depression and belittled feelings of self-worth after the flow and ecstasy. I don't care for that part, really.
If you'd like to read more about Shaila Catherine, here is the link:
http://www.amazon.ca/Focused-Fearle...p/0861715608
It is one of the best books that I've read which contains excellent descriptions of the bliss of the jhanas, how to refine them to experience the formless jhanas and then use the super-mind to do self-inquiry and obtain enlightenment.
quote:
I truly wish you all the best and if there was anything I could do to help, I would. I could send you something astrally or in dreams but you would probably just analyze that to death, too. Much Love to you, bro.
Typical responses and interests, though, eh? The man is more mind and the woman is more heart.. Venus and Mars..
I appreciate your concern, thank you very much.
God Bless you.
:)
TI |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 01:55:59 AM
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Hi Everyone.
You see, it is like this.
Simple mantra meditation, like Deep Meditation and TM will take you to different levels of consciousness. If you do the classic style of DM or TM meditation, very simply using the sound of the meaningless mantra, depending on how much you let go and your state of mind, you will descend into one of the deeper states of consciousness for a short period of time. Then you re-surface.
In my case, when I tried the very simple technique, I got a severe headache. However, since then I've by-passed the headache by putting my tongue back on the back roof of my mouth (like I've done for the last 3 3/4 years during meditations). I seem to transcend one or two times consistently during each sitting. And it seems to happen later in the session and it doesn't matter if I subvocalize or think or remember the mantra. Like Yogani said, it is 'falling off of the mantra'.
So what is my explanation of transcending?
The levels of consciousness are these (according to the Dalai Lama as written in his book called "How to Practice, The Way to a Meaningful Life") below. They are the stages of consciousness that a person goes through when they die. You also briefly go through some of the lower stages when you are going to sleep, ending a dream, sneezing, yawning and during orgasm.
Stages of consciousness during death:
1. mirage
2. smoke
3. fireflies
4. flame of a candle
5. vivid white sky-mind
6. vivid red or orange sky-mind
7. vivid black sky-mind
8. clear light.
During my meditations, I've seen the mirage, smoke, fireflies (once), flame of a candle (I wrote about this a few years ago) and the light that I have been seeing, that periodically I am bathed in, is the "5. vivid white sky-mind".
Here is the description of it from the Dalai Lama:
quote:
5. Your mind itself turns into an omnipresent, huge, vivid white vastness. It is described as a clear sky filled with moonlight - not the moon shinig in empty space but that space is filled with white light. Conceptual thought has vanished, and nothing appears except this vivid whiteness, which is your consciousness. However, a subtle sense of subject and object remains, so the state is slightly dualistic.
I've read that many people see a bright white light sometimes as they are falling asleep. I've experienced this many times as I've fallen asleep. I'm sure you have too. But, more importantly, I've experienced that light through self-inquiry (trying to find my "I AM", for short periods of time performing the DM/TM meditations, during kundalini explosions and I can see that light on the other side of a visualized mantra. I think that the body's chakras are actually holes through the veils of mind to this light and the subtle levels beyond.
According to the Dalai Lama, each finer level of subtle mind is more powerful than the last. He says:
quote:
Since the mind of clear light is so powerful, it is valuable to practice, so many Tibetan practitioners rehearse these stages of dying on a daily basis. I myself practice them six times daily by imagining the eight levels of mind one by one...
Bewell, perhaps that is the answer to your question about St. Paul dying daily that you wanted to discuss..
So, in retrospect, there are many ways to get into that white light, or at least the deeper levels of consciousness. Simple mantra meditation, more complex mantra meditation, concentrative meditation, it seems to be the case that whatever works works. Persistence and earnestness seem to be the key. (thanks Nisargadatta).
Another point is this. In the TM book called "Transcendence" by Rosenthal, he sites different experiences of transcendence. Some meditators say there is a 'wall of bright white light' -like David Lynch. Others say there is no light but they see other things, like sparkles etc.. Some don't see anything but feel the power and the bliss. So, I'm thinking that during DM/TM meditation, you might rendomly hit the various stages of consciousness in different sessions, so it may seem that the white light stage is not re-produceable at will, but really, you may still be transcending.
And then, if you don't know what the 'clear light' looks like, you might miss it and simply not realize what level you just hit.
Just thought I'd mention all of that..
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 02:49:50 AM
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Hi Lizmoran :)
quote:
Originally posted by lizmoran
Hi TI:
...
It seems as though you have some very specific result in mind for your practices. And, when you don't achieve that result, within your expected timeframe, you tweak your practice.
You are correct. And it especially agravates me when someone won't tell you what the result of a practice should be. Saying "you will notice the effect in your everyday life" is not that informative to me. I would rather hear "This practice produces this effect, and this effect is recognizable and measurable".
In TM books that I've read it says that for most people it takes 2 months to produce the same full-brain wave patterns as an experienced meditator. So, if you haven't hit some kind of transcendence within 2 months of starting TM, it is time to re-assess your methodology. Although, you probably should have gotten the correct technique sooner. Perhaps that is why they teach TM personally.
quote:
To use Yogani's analogy of digging a well, you dig as far down as you think you should have to in one spot and, when you don't find water there, you tweak your practice and start digging in another spot as far down as you think you should have to. When the water isn't there, you tweak your practice again. The problem is that you don't have a map of how far down the water lies in any particular place.
You don't need a map. The water is down there and all around you, no matter where you dig.
If you dig with a backhoe, the digging goes faster.
And it really helps if you know what you are digging for, what water looks like.
And, if you dig enough holes, eventually the shell will break anyway.
quote:
So you analyze and analyze trying to figure out by reason where the water lies closest to the surface. I don't think there's a person on earth right now who can give you that map. The science of spirituality is in its infancy.
I believe that original Buddhist teachings are that map (as long as they haven't been altered or have ommissions). Where do you find them? The Pali? That, and Patanjali. But I'm not that well informed and I'm sure many other here would know pristine sources.
The problem today, with the internet and mass-communication, is that anyone can start up a practice, proclaim themselves to be knowledgeable, take original practices and modify or misinterpret them, or worse, fabricate practices and then influence millions of people. Or, others can water down practices, or alter them more to serve their business models. You certainly could waste a lot of time and money being misled.
The way I see it, there are a few ways to protect yourself. One is by examining a teaching's lineage. Because, if you have the lineage, there will be more than one person who's books and life you can examine. Another method is 'miracles' or siddhis. I like Dhyan Yogi because he performed unselfish miracles, not like making 'watches appear out of nowhere' but saving people's lives and healing people. So did Jesus (and still does). To me, anyone who tells you not to question or analyze the practices is sending me red flags.
quote:
So the question is: What if you don't pick the best place to dig? Will you have faith that the water is down there somewhere, even if you're digging after 10, 20 or 30 years? Will you stick with it and keep digging in that same place? That, I think, is the essence of bhakti. But I could be wrong.
In my opinion, the best place to dig is in the heart. It is the most powerful, has the widest magnetic field, causes remote viewing and other siddhis like healing, and hides a wishing well that grants all wishes. I really should spend more time there and I know it.
Thanks for your comments..
:)
TI |
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JosephUK
United Kingdom
212 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 5:14:40 PM
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Hiya evryone,
It might be really useful to learn about how your mind works, and to analyse that. I'm doing that and it realy grounds my analysis in the hear and now.
I'm currently learning about how our hormones affect our mind states and Taoism is teaching techniques to strengthen and balance these energies. As the awareness grows and understands one can watch the flow of these hormones within the body and understand how intention to aid to the movement of these energies.
Additionally:
When I was pyschotic I had a tremendous amount of energy in my head, I actually actively moved energy up to my head. this causes a lot of analysis and over analysis leads to doubt. The one thing to be cultivated in the place of self-doubt is faith.
The answer to your analysis is don't know.
thus we have faith that those who have followed the path did it therefore we can do it.
Now i am more balanced and a lot more stupid.
but i kinda like being stupid.
i'm intuitive now too.
i'm sure you have lots of energy in your brain, but wheres it all going?
it's being wasted in analysis and self doubt.
put it to bhakti and it will serve you well.
we all have blips along the way which are difficult, you need to put your faith in yourself to be your own guru.
You need to believe the process is working.
you need to constantly search and analyse a little to understand the effectivness of practice.
i.e. relaxation, spiritual experience, gradual quietening of the mind.
in your case i would take a mindfulness approach and make your constant thoughts an object for meditation.
Whils practicing mindfulness one only does what one does.
If i'm washing the pots the entirety of my mind is devoted to washing those pots. As thoughts drift in return to washing the pots, mind body and soul.
In your case the analysis is the scenery and your getting dragged into it.
do you have the habit of devoting a certain portion of your day to analysis, if so try and do it mindfully.
in this way you will naturally progress your meditation to every aspect of your day. you change the object of your meditation.
it would be real progress towards living and breathing meditation to do this and would deeply strengthen your mind and resolve to reside in the witness instead of residing within the analysis. More purification.
Your analysis is simply a barrier to progress, you want enlightenment, big time, so be mindful of your thoughts.
Your mind is a machine, watch it and it will become a useful tool.
All my love
Joseph |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 8:14:38 PM
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Analyze this:
Why do want enlightenment?
How do you think you will feel when you are enlightened?
How is that different from how you feel now?
Why don't you feel that way right now? What has to change?
Do you really need enlightenment to change those things? |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 8:17:16 PM
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Dear Tibetan Ice,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply! As always, you bring up many great points, but I will try to keep this brief. I offered advice/ encouragement only because I thought you had expressed that you were not satisfied with where your practice was taking you and/or the brilliant monkey mind was running amuck and distracting you; perhaps I misunderstood you and if so, I apologize. Jesus is with you and that's totally beautiful. Yes, He does get around. May He keep you close to His Sacred Heart.
Your concern for me is very sweet and I appreciate it. You said, "The fulfillment of desire breeds more desire" - yes, especially when your desire is for God! And I am completely ok with that. Apparently I did not make this clear, but it is an important point so I'm glad you brought it up: The desire is not for the siddhis or ecstasies or experiences; the desire is for God. The various lovely experiences are merely a manifestation of the presence of God (and the effects of that Presence on the nervous system) and are, in turn, given back to God as an offering. The ecstasy per se is secondary, but being a hedonist by nature, I will surely enjoy it to the fullest possible extent, but above all I just want to dive deeper into that incredible Love. I hope that makes sense...
In the past I was worried about "attachment" and becoming "enlightened" and what are the various stages, and how would I know when I got there, etc., etc., but I no longer have any interest in these things whatsoever. Really. I am totally free and utterly in Love and I completely trust wherever God wants to take me. Like my teacher, I reject the whole concept of the goal of "enlightenment" as a dispassionate state to be reached. I embrace my desire and offer it up - every bit of it. The term "liberation" works better for me. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, by God's grace I am free.
You mentioned "equanimity." I believe that falls under the AYP term "Silence." I didn't elaborate on it as much since, by definition, there is less to say, but it is utter Peace, the abiding sense that all is truly well no matter what. I understand in AYP Silence is normally cultivated first and then Ecstasy, but in my particular case apparently they both struck suddenly when my reality changed. Which is fine with me.
Again I apologize if my unsolicited advice was not helpful and I will refrain from it in the future. I did, however, send you astrally a shiny Klein bottle full of Emptiness the other day in the hope that your monkey mind might enjoy it for a while and give you a moment of peace. Thanks again and all blessings to you, brother. <hug> |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2011 : 8:39:38 PM
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| Our minds are SO much superior to monkey minds. We have hundreds of ways to kill each other that monkeys can't even comprehend. And we have very well thought out explanations of why it is necessary. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2011 : 4:06:46 PM
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Hi Jamie :)
quote:
Originally posted by JamieRadha
Dear Tibetan Ice,
...
Your concern for me is very sweet and I appreciate it. You said, "The fulfillment of desire breeds more desire" - yes, especially when your desire is for God! And I am completely ok with that. Apparently I did not make this clear, but it is an important point so I'm glad you brought it up: The desire is not for the siddhis or ecstasies or experiences; the desire is for God. The various lovely experiences are merely a manifestation of the presence of God (and the effects of that Presence on the nervous system) and are, in turn, given back to God as an offering. The ecstasy per se is secondary, but being a hedonist by nature, I will surely enjoy it to the fullest possible extent, but above all I just want to dive deeper into that incredible Love. I hope that makes sense...
I'm sensing a kind of contradiction here. Yes, God does manifest lovely experiences, mind blowing magical experiences. But God also manifests the horror, ignorance and suffering. It is all part of God. Isn't seeking only the pleasurable kind of blindsiding your perspective?
When I first met Jesus, when I made an effort to seek him, when I was overwhelmed with his presence and sat there frozen on the church bench for 40 minutes with tears running down my faces and waves of love and ecstasy coursing through my body, it was the most overpowering experience in my life.
I soon learned that God, or Jesus influences the events in life. Like making all the lights turn green when you're almost late for church. But later, when the demons and lower beings started hanging around me I soon came to realize that if the good stuff is true, then the bad stuff is true too. It's all part and parcel of the same creation. Without the bad, there would be no good. Without the dark, there would be no light.
In my mind, equanimity means the realization that duality exists for a purpose, but that we can overcome and see through that duality by not clinging to desire or aversion. By not clinging, you can stay deeper longer. That is true peace. That is the end of suffering. (it is hard to do)
Equanimity is also the fourth jhana, after the bliss and happiness of the third jhana is released and no longer sought. Equanimity, true peace, is the not clinging to desires nor repelling from aversion.. It is a balance, the middle ground that truly sets you free. To me, that is liberation.
quote:
In the past I was worried about "attachment" and becoming "enlightened" and what are the various stages, and how would I know when I got there, etc., etc., but I no longer have any interest in these things whatsoever. Really. I am totally free and utterly in Love and I completely trust wherever God wants to take me. Like my teacher, I reject the whole concept of the goal of "enlightenment" as a dispassionate state to be reached. I embrace my desire and offer it up - every bit of it. The term "liberation" works better for me. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, by God's grace I am free.
I've heard many teachers reject enlightenment as a "state to be reached". Most of them say that enlightenment is already here and that by searching for it, the act of searching is what holds you back from the realization. I think I agree with the Dalai Lama that in order to realize omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience, there has to be something to initiate the process, like a seed that eventually sprouts and grows into a tree. That seed is desire. So, I hope your teacher, even though he may be saying not to vest any effort into a mind-made future-oriented concept of enlightenment, has some vehicle which supports some form of 'intent' or 'desire' to truly realize the truth of existence.. And then, if he doesn't, why should I care?
quote:
You mentioned "equanimity." I believe that falls under the AYP term "Silence."
I don't think so. I'm not sure what 'silence' is, and especially what "silence in motion" means. (Nisargadatta says that reality is solid like a rock, so how can silence move..?) The term 'silence' is a generic term and has been used in many contexts. (monkey mind wants a banana..?)
If I had to compare "equanimity" with a concept that Yogani has written about I would say that it could the "Dispassion" that he speaks about in his book on Self Inquiry. But, then again, you'd have to ask him.
quote:
I didn't elaborate on it as much since, by definition, there is less to say, but it is utter Peace, the abiding sense that all is truly well no matter what.
See, when you say that I wonder, how can such a peace foster any kind of desire? I do understand that a self-proclaimed hedonist might have behaviour patterns and karma that linger on and need working out, but in my mind isn't that some sort of contradiction? How can true peace still have any desire or aversion? See what I mean?
quote:
I understand in AYP Silence is normally cultivated first and then Ecstasy, but in my particular case apparently they both struck suddenly when my reality changed. Which is fine with me.
I am not an expert on AYP, but I think your assumption is correct. According to Yogani, inner silence is the foundation for developing the Witness and without the Witness a person cannot do relational self-inquiry (from the Witness state). According to Yogani, there is no benefit to having thoughts contemplate thoughts as it renders the exercise of self-inquiry impotent.
I think in Buddhist terms, the process for self-inquiry means that you have to focus the mind first by entering a state of jhana and then from that state, with the mind in a state of maleability, superconsciousness and has become very powerful, you use that state to perform self-inquiry.
quote:
Again I apologize if my unsolicited advice was not helpful and I will refrain from it in the future.
No need to apologize for anything. I appreciate your comments and correspondence. Also that fact that you answered my questions about practice, the breath and pointed me to another yoga teacher.. :)
quote:
I did, however, send you astrally a shiny Klein bottle full of Emptiness the other day in the hope that your monkey mind might enjoy it for a while and give you a moment of peace.
I have no problem with my monkey mind. If it really gets too bad I can do controlled breathing patterns, like a 4-4-4-4 routine. That shuts it off after a while. Actually, if I put pauses into spinal breathing, I can usually take the banana away from the monkey mind in about 5 minutes.. Then, the astral lights appear. If I persist, I end up in this huge black space where my body resembles a jelly fish of light..
quote:
Thanks again and all blessings to you, brother. <hug>
Oh, thanks for the green Klein bottle. I was wondering what that was. :)
:)
TI |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2011 : 03:07:57 AM
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My dear brother Tibetan Ice,
Thank you for your lengthy reply. I appreciate the time and energy you have put into communicating with me. It appears that my attempts to describe this state of being have been woefully inadequate, almost like trying to describe surfing to somebody who lives in the desert and has never seen the ocean. But you've seen temporary ponds that form after a rain storm; imagine a really BIG pond that went on forever. Um, now how do I describe waves? You could read an issue of Surfing Magazine and then argue with me about which type of board is best for what kind of waves, etc., but until you physically get in the ocean and experience being inside the tube and hearing it roar "OM" and seeing the sunlight through the wave as it crests over your head, you won't really be able to appreciate what it is like. So maybe it's not possible. But, have you ever experienced moments of total peace, bliss and clarity in your meditations where all the noise ceased, you felt One with everything and knew that no matter what happened in your life, all was well, and your heart was overflowing with divine Love? Now imagine if that same experience, only deeper and more powerful, expanded to become your entire reality on an everyday basis. That is what eventually happens when you keep doing your yoga practice. (For me it took 35 years, however, if I had had AYP or Heart of Yoga from the beginning, I suspect it might have happened quicker.)
Again, I'm not going to argue with you about the various definitions and stages of "enlightenment" and whatnot, as I already told you, I'm not interested. When I was much younger I enjoyed such arguments but nowadays I find them tedious and unhelpful.
However, I would like to address your perception of God and attempt (again) to clarify my own experience in this regard. You seem to have a problem with my ecstasy. Why, are you the Fun Police? LOL! 
As I have already tried to explain, pleasurable experiences are not sought for their own sake; I simply hang out with God in meditation and He blows me away with unfathomable Bliss which, yes, I enjoy, VERY much, and offer it back to Him in return.
God is Love. God is Being, Consciousness, Bliss. To be in God's presence is ecstasy. And you already KNOW this because you have experienced it, as you described! I'm really, really glad that you know Jesus and He is with you. Now imagine if you could be fully aware of His presence constantly, nearer than your own heart. How do you think that would feel? The green lights and demonic entities are just "stuff." THAT is what you're not supposed to cling to. By the way, I wouldn't worry about demons. If you are in Christ they actually fear you.
While we're on the subject of Jesus I would be remiss if I didn't point out, if you follow Him you are technically already "free" because your karma has been taken care of. (Krishna also promises this in the Gita. "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart and is directing the wanderings of all living entities. Surrender unto Him utterly and by His grace you will achieve transcendental peace and the supreme and eternal abode.") This being the case, your yoga practice would serve to help you realize your freedom (as opposed to trying to obtain it somehow in the future).
You asked, "How can true peace still have desire or aversion?" My one desire is for God and I have Him, yet I still desire more of Him and it doesn't seem to have disturbed my peace. The desire for God (bhakti), as opposed to the desire for "stuff," does not have negative karmic consequences, indeed, it burns up bad karma. As for "aversion," certainly unpleasant things do happen but they don't bother me anymore and I don't worry about them, so "aversion" is not really an issue for me, either. I am fully involved in my life, "passionate" even, (not "detached"), but I have true Peace in the sense that everything is totally OK no matter what happens, because I reside in the Being/ Consciousness/ Bliss in my own heart and I perceive my existence as a manifestation of Love. Again, this is very hard to describe if you have not experienced it.
With regard to my dear teacher, yes, I understand and agree with you that his "there's nothing to achieve" attitude seems paradoxical, but Yogani has discussed this at some length on a recent Tweet (can't remember the lesson #). In Mark's defense, he does give a really useful explanation: We don't practice yoga to "get somewhere" or to achieve some future goal of "enlightenment" or to "find God" (he says, "God does not need to be found! God is right HERE.") Rather, we do yoga to PARTICIPATE in the Given Reality, to ENJOY God, here and now! As a natural result of our yoga practice our system will become purified and we will release obstructions in the process and our perception becomes more clear (which is what happens when you consistently do any genuine yoga practice regardless of the tradition or system). Mark will not argue with you about any of this stuff; he will say, "Never mind all that, just DO YOUR YOGA!"
As for the Klein bottle, I was having a conversation on Facebook with some of my other nerdy friends about dimensionality of objects and Mobius strip and Klein bottle came up, and I thought, "Ooh, Tibetan Ice would like this!" It's kind of like a visual Zen koan. The bottle I sent you was actually silver/ mirror, but I was sitting on a green carpet when I sent it so that's probably why it appeared green (from reflection). Glad you liked it!
I truly wish you all the best, my dear brother, and I hope the above was helpful although I rather doubt it, but I've enjoyed our conversation all the same. In Love, Jamie
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Edited by - Radharani on Aug 12 2011 04:55:17 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2011 : 7:39:11 PM
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Hi Jamie,
Oh, a klein bottle is an actual object! I found it just now..
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle
And you're right. I like it!
I really do appreciate talking to you. I'm sorry if I write too much.
Just two simple questions:
1) What does a black lab dog have to do with you? Everytime I ponder your related experiences it seems to pop up.
2) Is your kundalini activated?
:)
TI |
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