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altrau
Thailand
3 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 11 2011 : 09:43:28 AM
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I am reading Transcendence: Healing and Transformation Through Transcendental Meditation by Norman E. Rosenthal
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ence&x=0&y=0
It is an enjoyable read about TM meditation (which is quite similar to AYP deep meditation) from scientific point of view.
In someone might be interested. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jun 11 2011 10:11:44 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 10:36:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by altrau
I am reading Transcendence: Healing and Transformation Through Transcendental Meditation by Norman E. Rosenthal
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ence&x=0&y=0
It is an enjoyable read about TM meditation (which is quite similar to AYP deep meditation) from scientific point of view.
In someone might be interested.
Hi Altrau, :)
Could you please tell me something about the book?
Are there any technical instructions on how to perform TM?
Is there any description of stages, or depths of meditation?
Does the book mention samadhi anywhere?
Does the book mention anything about siddhis (magical powers)?
Is there anywhere in the book where a claim is made that TM can bring about an enlightened state?
Is the book basically a sales pitch which makes you want to run out and sign up for an expensive TM class?
Are there any references to Patanjali?
Are there any pranayama excercises listed or discussed?
Thank you very much.
:)
TI |
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altrau
Thailand
3 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2011 : 05:26:23 AM
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Tibetan_Ice
I have read about 100 pages.
The answer to all your questions is no. It is about scientific research that shows how and also why TM affects brain and give various benefits such as reduce stress, depression etc. The book has no spiritual tone. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2011 : 6:40:11 PM
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Hi Altrau :)
I bought the book yesterday and read it. (I am a trained Evelyn Woods Reading Dynamics practitioner and the book is kind of an easy read, if not very repetitive..) So I guess now I can answer my own questions..
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Altrau, :)
Could you please tell me something about the book?
Are there any technical instructions on how to perform TM?
There are no specific instructions on how to perform TM in this book. Instead, there is mention that TM must be taught to you by a qualified teacher. Also there is mention of the importance of the 'correct' mantra and proper technique.
It does mention the following:
- There is no meaning to the mantra. It is just a vehicle to bring you into the deeper parts of the mind.
- TM does not involve any mindfulness, focus, concentration, or control of the mind; no contemplation, no visualizations.
quote:
Is there any description of stages, or depths of meditation?
At the beginning of the second chapter called "THE MIND WITHIN THE MIND What is Transcendence" Rosenthal says that there are four forms of consciousness - "waking, sleeping, dreaming and a fourth that they call turiya, or transcendence." "During transcendence, there is consciousness with no specific focus."
It seems that the TM technique permits a person to move directly into the turiya state, that is "just pure consciousness aware of its own unbounded nature".
Some of the descriptions of the state of transcendence include feeling joy, feeling as vast as an ocean, the feeling of floating, and the perceptions of light. There is also mention of several TM practitioners who experience "pure unbounded awareness" on a "regular basis".
The extent of elboration on seeing lights during meditation was, for me, a little disappointing.. It says "if you see lights or find yourself splashing about in pure consciousness -as you may- it's a delightful bonus." I was hoping for a bit more on the subject of lights..
Then, Rosenthal goes on to say that the transcendent state, once fully developed, leads to "Refined Cosmic Consciousness". He sites some examples of satori moments (my words); an example of a boy merging into a tree and a person who experiences a supper table place mat in it's full glory and splendour. He goes on to speak about "unity consciousness". By the time you are finished reading this chapter, you are left with little doubt that TM carried to it's advanced stages produces all of the enlightened states..
quote:
Does the book mention samadhi anywhere?
I did not see the word 'samadhi' in there anywhere.
quote:
Does the book mention anything about siddhis (magical powers)?
No.
quote:
Is there anywhere in the book where a claim is made that TM can bring about an enlightened state?
Well, yes. Chapter two, as mentioned above, is written such that one would conclude that abiding in transcendence produces, deep peace and joy, satori moments, unity consciousness, cosmic consciousness and more (healing, personality change etc..).
quote:
Is the book basically a sales pitch which makes you want to run out and sign up for an expensive TM class?
Sort of. At times it does sound like a sales pitch. I wonder if the TM organization sells shares or is constructed as a pyramid marketing network. I do not understand why, without adequate written instructions, one cannot learn TM and properly practice the technique without the personal instruction or why the mantra has to be chosen for you..
quote:
Are there any references to Patanjali?
No. Even Patanjali's practice of training attention into samadhi are at odds with the TM method..
quote:
Are there any pranayama excercises listed or discussed?
It mentioned in a few places about taking a deep breath, but there was no mention of any specific pranayama exercises.
Towards the end of the book there is a short Question and Answer section (about 12 pages of this 300 page book. I found chapter two intersting, because it described the transcendent state but it did not go into very much depth. The rest of the book, for hundreds of pages, talks about the benefits of TM with regards to the healing of psychiatric, personality and common disorders. Many many cases are reviewed, all of which show how TM has benefited or healed the people in those case studies. In one part it even claims that Howard Stern used TM to quit smoking.. It would have been a little more balanced if Rosenthal would have mentioned some things that TM wouldn't do, just to make it seem not so one-sided or biased..
From what I have learned, in my opinion, the main ingredient of TM is the effortlessness during the mantra repetition. Being effortless seems to promote a stage of 'letting go', one of non-participation or lack of active mental doing. I've tried being effortless twice during mantra repetition yesterday and the resulting meditative state left me in a very deep quiet place filled with light (and a slight headache afterward). It was not so pleasant coming out of that state.. :)
Another main point that resonates with me is that TM produces states of satori. Although I am not a trained TM meditator, I've spent most of the last four years performing AYP's Deep Meditation and I have experienced satori states several times now. So I must be doing something right. :) I am greatful to this book for mentioning some of the effects of TM.
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jun 19 2011 7:06:44 PM |
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david752
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 09:08:22 AM
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I, too, am reading this book, and agree with the above reviews.
Being a TM practitioner (for 40 years) and a former TM teacher, I can attest that the book seems to be an accurate accounting of its beneficial effects. Like most other TM books, it makes no attempt to teach TM or explain it in great detail, since the very poor start to meditation that would result would not be in the best interests of any reader.
I am sure that this new book will help interest many people in this effective technique for improving life. The world is in a very sad state, and few people link war, poverty, and turmoil to the suffering of individuals, who are cut off from the infinitely blissful level of life by their overwhelming attachment to mind and body, which is caused by weakness of the nervous system due to stored stresses. The world desperately needs the knowledge of transcending. I support all the current and new sources of that knowledge. The result can be a world free of suffering, living in productivity and fulfillment.
I've read the basic AYP books containing instructions for various 'spiritual' techniques and, as I've said elsewhere, consider these instructions as being of very high quality, especially those I consider the most important, which are for AYP deep meditation. Yogani is a wonderful teacher. Their only limitations are due to their conciseness, but this seems to be well compensated for by the AYP public support fora.
David Spector
President,
Natural Stress Relief/USA
www.nsrusa.org
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2011 : 10:10:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david752
I, too, am reading this book, and agree with the above reviews.
Being a TM practitioner (for 40 years) and a former TM teacher, I can attest that the book seems to be an accurate accounting of its beneficial effects. Like most other TM books, it makes no attempt to teach TM or explain it in great detail, since the very poor start to meditation that would result would not be in the best interests of any reader.
I am sure that this new book will help interest many people in this effective technique for improving life. The world is in a very sad state, and few people link war, poverty, and turmoil to the suffering of individuals, who are cut off from the infinitely blissful level of life by their overwhelming attachment to mind and body, which is caused by weakness of the nervous system due to stored stresses. The world desperately needs the knowledge of transcending. I support all the current and new sources of that knowledge. The result can be a world free of suffering, living in productivity and fulfillment.
I've read the basic AYP books containing instructions for various 'spiritual' techniques and, as I've said elsewhere, consider these instructions as being of very high quality, especially those I consider the most important, which are for AYP deep meditation. Yogani is a wonderful teacher. Their only limitations are due to their conciseness, but this seems to be well compensated for by the AYP public support fora.
David Spector
President,
Natural Stress Relief/USA
www.nsrusa.org
Hi David, :)
I see you are also marketing your own brand of meditation for transcending. I was researching some of your posts.. like this one:
link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/2545...nc+revisited
quote:
Of course, we usually get stress release thrown into the equation long before we reach that state of perfect inner silence. The reason that focusing on breathing is so popular is that it doesn't produce the deep rest of the fourth state of consciousness. We know this because practitioners of mindfulness only experience relaxation, not (usually) stress release. Any technique that produces relaxation (or insight) reliably and with little instruction, and without uncomfortable side effects, has a chance to become popular quickly.
All of this is why those who have tried transcending and other techniques almost always prefer transcending: it is simply more efficient for improving life. It is like taking a jet plane instead of roller skates. It makes enlightenment (full functioning) possible in one lifetime, whatever our starting point.
What I am curious about is your statement that I have bolded. What is your definition of enlightenment and have you any students/practitioners who have become enlightened using the meditation technique you are selling?
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2011 : 12:50:45 AM
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Hi David,
I noticed that you did not respond.
http://www.tmscotland.org/interview2.html
quote:
What is enlightenment?
"Enlightenment is the normal, natural state of health for the body and mind. It results from the full development of consciousness and depends upon the perfect and harmonious functioning of every part of the body and nervous system. When one is using the full potential of the mind and body in this way, every thought and action is spontaneously correct and life-supporting. This is life free from suffering, life lived in its full stature and significance.
"The goal of the Transcendental Meditation Technique is the state of enlightenment. This means we experience that inner calmness, that quiet state of least excitation, even when we are dynamically busy."
"This is a life free from suffering". ?
Buddha has said that attachment is the cause of suffering..
link: http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html
quote:
The Four Noble Truths
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
Also, how can every thought and action be spontaneously correct and life-supporting when life is a cycle of birth and death, and death doesn't seem to be all that life-supporting to me? :)
link: http://www.tm.org/blog/maharishi/enlightenment/
quote:
Question: I have heard that you talked about enlightenment as being easy. I was wondering what exactly you mean by “enlightenment”?
Maharishi: Enlightenment means lack of darkness, absence of darkness. And “absence of darkness” means no mistakes, no weakness, no shortcoming—success everywhere, fulfillment of desire everywhere. That is enlightenment. One is living in full accord with Natural Law. Spontaneously Nature is supporting us: then we are not in the dark about anything.
Gee, "Success and fulfillment of every desire"? Doesn't success just feed the ego? Doesn't fulfilling desires cause more desires?
From Ramana:
link: http://www.messagefrommasters.com/L..._desires.htm
quote:
Question : What is the best way of dealing with desires and vasanas with a view to getting rid of them - satisfying them or suppressing them?
Ramana Maharshi : If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like trying to quench a fire by pouring inflammable spirits on it. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into a forceful surging up of desires with undesirable consequences.
The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out `Who gets the desire? What is its source?' When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink, sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy.
They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind.
link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU7zQvSVzJ0
quote:
What exactly is enlightenment, is it the same as whole brain functioning,or is it something else?
Maharishi: It is the whole brain functioning, but we add,fully-developed whole brain functioning. Full development of the brain can touch cosmic level of creativity of natural law. Cosmic level of creativity of natural law available to human awareness is the state of enlightenment. In short we can have a glimpse of enlightenment in the conscious awareness of the source of thought, from where intelligence becomes creative intelligence, on that level is the level of enlightenment, on that level is the utilization or existence of total natural law. On that level the whole field of enlightenment is to make our awareness known to that level, the source of thought, so that any thought that rises has the total intelligence of natural law, that means cosmic level of natural law, in every thought. Cosmic level of thought functioning is the functioning from the level of enlightenment, and that will mean absolutely no mistake, that is one thing, but absolutely all possibility lively in every thought. That is the state of enlightenment in which man will not make mistake, man will hit high, speaking, thinking, behaving, all those values from that fully enlightened awareness. From there, I am the totality, all these exhortations about the supreme level of life, individual life a cosmic life--that is our strength, educating the people to become familiar with their own source of thought. That is the program of gaining enlightenment. These groups of Vedic pandits, and these peace creating groups everywhere in the world, will be practicing that value, source of thought, which will capture total potential of creativity of natural law, and then the world will be a purified world. All this dust and dark of dark ages will disappear, and a new world will be created. That is our field. We are expert in educating the people for enlightenment. All these procedures are very simple procedures, that is our strength to recreate an ideal world.
Hmm.. Isn't the world exactly perfect as it is? There is no "dust and dark of dark ages" if there is no mind or even attachment to thoughts.
How can "so that any thought that rises has the total intelligence of natural law" be true? Is "I must brush my teeth" any different from the same thought arising from the "total intelligence of natural law"? Isn't a thought just a thought?
Isn't the idea of a "purified world" contrary to the necessary dualistic forms that have been created? Don't you need dark in order to have light? There would be no good without the bad to contrast it. Wouldn't a world of all good be imbalanced?
In my humble opinion, the Maharishi is an expert at selling myths. His words have no substance but they appeal to the sleeping masses, those who are too lazy or unwilling to examine his content closely.
My opinion at this time..
:)
TI
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Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jul 08 2011 07:50:28 AM |
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2011 : 5:20:36 PM
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Here is a note from a TM course:
2) The technique is simple close your eyes - wait
about half a minuet, then start thinking the mantra over and over again.
At the end of meditation stop thining the mantra and wait about 2 minuets
before opening the eyes.
Some notes n correct meditation ( from the TM Checking notes)
*In this meditation, we do not concentrate, we do not try to say the
mantra clearly. Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation, it is
just a faint idea.
We don't try to make a rhythm of the mantra. We don't try to control
thoughts. If a thought comes, we do not try to push it out. When we
become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come
back to the mantra.
Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are
forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it or try to keep
on remembering it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and
do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. The mantra may change in
different ways. It can get faster or slower, louder or softer, clearer or
fainter. Its pronunciation may change, lengthen or shorten or even may
appear to be distorted or it may not appear to change at all. In every
case, we take it as it comes, neither anticipating nor resiting change,
just simple innocence.
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2011 : 10:45:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by boris
TM instruction:
http://minet.org/checking3.html
Hi Boris, :)
Thank you for posting these instructions.
They seem authentic, do you know if they are valid?
:)
TI |
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boris
Norway
68 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2011 : 5:32:20 PM
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| Hi,yes i am pretty sure they are authentic.As you see it is how they teach an TM teacher how to teach.As far as I know this information is court documents from an trial about TM being a cult or not.It also is essentially the same as Yogani teach imo. |
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FYI: Transcendence by Norman E. Rosenthal
