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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 03 2011 : 01:10:58 AM
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Hi Yogani,
I'm very confused now.
Isn't Deep Meditation very similar if not identical to TM (aside from the choice of mantra)?
I thought in Deep Meditation, the meaning behind the mantra doesn't matter. The mantra is used for it's sound quality only, and the effect of descending into inner silence is produced by the way that mantra is used. Very simple, and apparently effective.
1) So why is the "i am" mantra the name of God? The meaning behind that mantra is very hard to ignore. It is also two of the most used words in the english language. "I am..." Even "AYAM" is the name of God. Have you considered the psychological impact of erasing the meaning in the mantra and using it like a tool?
2) Why have you come out with variations to the mantra? If the original technique is effective, what is to be gained by adding to it? (I've never heard of anyone from TM or similar meditation styles changing their mantras, they all say that you keep that mantra for life. ) Having variations of the mantra is like putting more emphasis on the particular mantra that is being used. This leads people to believe that the mantra has a particular power or effect, when really, to transcend into inner silence, the mantra itself is superfluous (doesn't matter). Isn't it the mental repetition of a simple sound that produces the 'transcending' effect? At what point does altering the mantra change the practice sufficiently to a point where you are no longer performing the orignal simple technique?
3) Why do you claim that the resonation of the mantra is clearing pathways and working on the nervous system? Putting emphasis on the resonation of the mantra and the 'work it does' makes a person want to repeat it louder and with lots of energy, at least that is the way I see it. It leads one away from the simple original practice. And it kind of contradicts the idea that we use the mantra just for the sound of it. It's a high-powered cleanser too!
4) If there is power in the mantra, why would anyone want to let it become fuzzy and non-distinct? At a fuzzy level, there may be no difference between "i am" or "ayeammm" or "ayeeemmmma" etc. Gee, I wonder what pathways I'm clearing now with that metamorphed version? See what I mean?
5) Isn't coming out with "Solar centering technique" teaching that it is ok to locate the mantra at a specific point in the body? You do mention that doing so splits the attention. You also mention that "should the location change...". Well, at some point monitoring the mantra to see where it is coming from is not the same simple original practice.. Isn't 'monitoring the location of the mantra' the same as 'being off of the mantra'? Which is true? Isn't this a contradiction? Why elaborate on or invent a practice that contradicts a previous teaching/
With all your variations and elaborations of the usage of the mantra in deep meditation, aren't you are leading the practioner away from a very simple technique? Aren't those variations and elaborations serving to anchor a practioner in thoughts at the surface of the mind?
:)
TI
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2011 : 08:15:03 AM
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Hi TI:
Everything you have asked is covered in the lessons.
You are confused (and often confuse others) because you are analyzing endlessly instead of settling in with a practice. There can be no help for it except for you to surrender your mind to a singular path, AYP or other, which has not happened yet. I am waiting... 
Your mega-topic "Where am I at now?" says it all. You will not know where you are at until you can stop asking the question. That is the crux of it. It has nothing to do with your latest list of questions or doubts.
Sorry, there is little else I can say to you at this point. We have been going in circles with this stuff for years. It should be highlighted as the primary issue you face in your practice, and so it has been.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: I am moving this topic to "others system" because it is not really an AYP practice question. It is more dissection and comparative analysis, which is not helpful for those seeking to stabilize a daily practice of deep meditation.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2011 : 08:17:29 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 01:24:39 AM
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Hi Yogani,
You are right. Your writings speak volumes. (and yes I see that I have written volumes too)! :) That is the problem for me. You have elaborated too much about the mantra "i am", variations of the mantra, effects of the mantra, power of the mantra as a purification tool that it leads one away from the simple practice.
I found this video tonight and I believe that I now understand the process of Transcendental Meditation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7aj...ture=related
It is a video of the Maharishi explaining the principles of TM.
At the beginning of the video, he explains that the mantra must not have any meaning to it, because the meaning serves to anchor consciousness at the surface. The meaning will stop a meditator from descending or following the mantra-thought down to the deeper levels of transcendence as the mantra dissolves.
I also now understand that the mantra is a thought and we are to pay attention to the thought as it dissolves into the vast ocean of awareness deep below the waves of surface consciousness.
The other point here is this: You have to think the thought and then be aware of it as it dissolves. If you 'think another mantra' before the first mantra dissolves, you haven't followed the thought to stillness, or transcendence. So, even thinking the mantra back-to-back without enough of a break between repetitions isn't going to do it. So I would think that timing is very important.
There is no sub-vocalization. As a matter of fact, I believe that subvocalizing the mantra will lead to energy overload because whatever you empower by using the throat chakra (by subvocalizing - repeating the mantra silently as a sound you are really using the throat chakra which causes the lower tan tien to also kick in) it will direct and focus prana/energy into the brain. Easy to overload this way. I'll bet most people don't know the difference between subvocalzing the mantra and thinking the mantra.
Anyway, I now realize that a few years ago, I was experimenting with cutting out the subvocalization of the mantra and just 'thinking the mantra' that I was at that point on the right track. I also mentioned (in my gigantic blog) that I was just keeping the attention at the same location as where the thought was appearing and dissolving. I would end up in a place of blissful light. Well, that was it! That was transcendence! I remember meditating like that for a few days and posting about it. I also remember that nobody responded with "That is right!" or "That is the way to do it" so from then on I started to get into more variations like 'intuiting the mantra' and 'pulsing the mantra from the heart' and found more light.. The light is really a wonderful thing. Recently I've learned about the Sant Mat, and how they use the light and sound to transcend into the higher planes.. like here:
http://santmatradhasoami.wordpress....gani-mataji/
Here is how to do that meditation (in case anyone is interested):
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/santma...ion-practice
Anyhow, now I believe that I know the proper mantra meditation technique so I will try it now, to see if I can get the bliss/light to grow that way. Further, I will further detach from my need for confirmation of technique by others, who may or may not understand the correct procedure. I have no need to blame others for whatever reason..
Thanks for your time.
:)
TI
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 09:47:16 AM
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Hi TI:
You mentioned 5-6 teachings/traditions in your last post. You are never going to be able to develop a stable practice that way.
Just meditate with one method, and cut the mind crap. It is that simple.
As for AYP revealing too much, no one asked you to skip ahead and try to absorb everything at once. There are no contradictions for those who start at the beginning and go through the middle and end stage practices at the appropriate times. You want to analyze and understand everything (everywhere) before you even begin. So you have not yet begun real practice, which is doing one thing for at least a few years.
Is it the hammer's fault if the carpenter keeps hitting his thumb with it?
Sorry to be so blunt, but the analysis obsession is the primary obstruction to your progress. More analysis (like you are doing above) will not solve it. You will not get your practice in gear until you let it go. The mind cannot grasp the essence of good practice, or its results. This is why we use simple mechanical techniques. This enables the mind to let go in time. It is not complicated. If we keep dissecting with the mind, keeping the mind in front, there can be no real progress. You cannot analyze your way to enlightenment. Neither can you analyze your way into a stable long term practice. It just ain't going to happen until you learn to let it go.
In spiritual practice, the role of the mind is to make consistent long term choices, not to endlessly analyze and second guess. The first assures our progress. The second holds us back.
TI, this is all you are going to hear from me, because it is the only thing that matters in your case, and for all of us. I believe you have heard it from here quite a few times already. And when you do not hear from me when you raise your next batch of doubts and questions, you may want to read this post again.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 11:46:05 AM
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Hi T.I.,
I absolutely agree with Yogani when he says you are overanalysing.Traditionally guru's did not give answers to questions because it invokes a monkey mind and not a calm mind as in your case. Unfortunately(or not)the Western mind determines it wants answers and will not blindly follow instructions.This forum serves the purpose for those who 'need' to know but it's a two edged sword as in your case a 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing' insomuch as you cannot settle into a routine.Bruce Lee was asked if he was as good as the media said and he replied ' If I say no you won't believe me and if I say yes you will see me as a showoff'.This happens to guru's also, if they promote themselves they are accused of ripping people off, if they don't many people lose the tools to growth.In Yogani's case he has given the information with the advice not to overanalyse it but 'do the practice'.You seem to be looking for the 'biggy' that is going to give you incredible results but the reality without practice and/or blessings from the universe,very little progress will be made in this way.
L&L
Dave |
Edited by - riptiz on Aug 07 2011 08:35:09 AM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 1:34:53 PM
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Yogani, have you been sharing your password with anyone? Just Kidding. Good to see a different Yogani here. Breaks through the myth of an always smiling, always nice guru.
Coming to the topic. TI, it is nice to ask those questions. I would have asked too. But in retrospection it appears that we always search for that one thing, knowing which will change our life all of a sudden. This search is futile. Nothing will change things for us all of a sudden. Including AYP too. What we need to know will come to us (as long as we make the best use of what we already know). I have also read somewhere that all questions disappear upon awakening. I am guessing even with a little progress this "I just have to ask" thing will reduce for all of us.
- Near |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 1:38:41 PM
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Here is an excerpt from Kirtanman's post, that relates to the situation here
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#71461
Imagine you had a dream last night, of living in a bizarre, confusing, half-dead environment ... and you kept asking question after question, trying desperately to make sense of it all, and were sure you could figure it out, and you dreamed you were getting closer to figuring it out, and then
..... you ..... woke ...... up.
How important would those questions feel now?
"Not very."
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2011 : 2:15:52 PM
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quote:
Just meditate with one method, and cut the mind crap. It is that simple
.
being blunt is good
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psychicexplorer
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2011 : 11:02:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Yogani,
I'm very confused now.
.....
1) So why is the "i am" mantra the name of God? The meaning behind that mantra is very hard to ignore.
I struggled with that aspect myself. I have since opted to go with a different mantra that I received. After all , The guru is in me, and that felt like the right thing to do. Otherwise I follow all other aspects of AYP that I have progressed to. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 01:28:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Hi T.I.,
I absolutely agree with Yogani when he says you are overanalysing.Traditionally guru's did not give answers to questions because it invokes a monkey mind and not a calm mind as in your case. Unfortunately(or not)the Western mind determines it wants answers and will not blindly follow instructions.This forum serves the purpose for those who 'need' to know but it's a two edged sword as in your case a 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing' insomuch as you cannot settle into a routine.Bruce Lee was asked if he was as good as the media said and he replied ' If I say no you won't believe me and if I say yes you will see me as a showoff'.This happens to guru's also, if they promote themselves they are accused of ripping people off, if they don't many people lose the tools to growth.In Yogani's case he has given the information with the advice not to overanalyse it but 'do the practice'.You seem to be looking for the 'biggy' that is going to gove you incredible results but the reality without practice and/or blessings from the universe,very little progress will be made in this way.
L&L
Dave
Hi Dave, :)
I'm surprised. I thought you were initiated into the Maha Kundalini Yoga practices? If so, didn't you do the 108 Bhutta Shuddi mantras for 10 days in a row? Did you not "Fall into meditation" at some point during your mantra repetitions? (like me)?
Haven't you ever wondered if doing the "i am" meditation is supposed to produce the same effect or is it a different state of samadhi?
I was shaktipat'ed in absentia by Sri Anandi Ma a few years ago and she appeared to me often in the astral planes during meditation, as well as Shri Dhyanyogi Madhusudandasji. To me, that is a true sign of authentic gurus..
quote:
You seem to be looking for the 'biggy' that is going to gove you incredible results but the reality without practice and/or blessings from the universe,very little progress will be made in this way.
Not true. Somehow, Yogani is propagating a myth that I haven't started practice.. I think he meant it figureatively speaking. And if he is right, what the hell have been doing for the last 4 years? And if he is right, then maybe I really don't know how to do deep meditation, therefore, it's a good thing I'm questioning it now. Kind of a catch 22.
Just some questions, do you do the "i am" meditation, and if you do, do you subvocalize it or do you think or remember it?
:)
TI
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 08:51:21 AM
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Yogani isn't trying to propogate a myth; he is trying to help you by saying to "quit analyzing". Either continue practices you are doing, or change practices and continue practicing. But analyzing won't help you find better practices. All the answers are in the lessons and books if you want explanations. Just keep practicing!
PS - Try not to put value on things that appear on the astral plane; just treat it as "scenery". |
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JosephUK
United Kingdom
212 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 11:18:04 AM
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Hi evryone,
I resonate strongly with Tibetan ice about analysis.
I am very results oriented and I haven't developed true faith in the simple practice.
I have been buying up books and looking for new practices constantly.
this has led to shallow (for me) knowledge across a number of frontiers.
it's as if i've hit a brick wall now.
to sum up the constant buzz of analysis:
Am i doing this for enlightenment (intangible, impossible for monkey mind to achieve)
or am i doing it for healing (tangible, i have achieved many levels of it) for my mental health.
It seems impossible for me to have faith either in my inner guru or a guru else where, when in reality we talk in different languages.
but yet i feel the spiritual call.
I can see that Yogani's analysis is correct but as i see it has not provided a mental mechanism for achieving it.
perhaps we can find a refinement of practices here. for those of an analytical nature.
my own way would be to use affirmations to draw energy away from analysis and doubt and apply it to devotion through bhakti.
may my doubt an analysis be turned to devotion to the creator.
joe |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 12:00:44 PM
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Hi Joe:
Yes, it would be good if we could find a way to transform analysis into real spiritual practice.
I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a justification for traveling the spiritual path using analysis as the primary tool, so I could offer TI and others with this orientation some sort of handle to proceed according to that tendency. But I have come up with nothing. It is totally beyond the mind (and the wracked brain), and that's a good thing. But not for those stuck in mental analysis to the detriment of long term stable practice. Not sure how those with strong analytical tendencies can get out of this.
It is a similar situation with people who are stuck in looking for a philosophical solution to the enlightenment question, which non-relational self-inquiry is part of -- attempting to declare truth rather than simply becoming it through practical methods that transcend the mind altogether.
Indeed, such people do not want to leave analysis behind at all. Perhaps it is a fear of the unknown, disguised as the never-ending analysis project?
We must die into transcendence in order to be born again, and that can be frightening for some. Though it is extremely easy -- like falling off a log, or falling off the mantra. Doing it consistently like that for years and decades (because it works) is the challenging part.
If there is an irrational fear of becoming inner silence (letting go of mind, at least for a while), then analyzing it to death might be a seemingly logical alternative ... but not really. It is the path of 10,000 questions, doubts, excuses and delays. In spiritual practice, we simply let go into the unknown, and in doing so leave the mind behind. In becoming the unknown, all is known. It cannot be accomplished in the mind with analysis of practice, experiences, or even understanding, except to say, "After all these years of practice, I find myself to be stillness in motion."
The "lesson tweet" for this morning is on "pitfalls of the mind." This topic discussion is about pitfalls #1 & #2. Here is the tweet...
From http://www.aypsite.org/tweets.html (at this moment):
"AYP Lesson -- Pitfalls of the Mind. As soon as we think we have "IT," we don't -- http://www.aypsite.com/329.html"
Your suggestion to surrender all analysis to our chosen ideal in bhakti mode is excellent. I endorse that strongly. It is how we all are able to surrender our mental and emotional fetishes, adopt more effective means, and live the truth that is our essence and birthright.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 12:18:55 PM
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PS: I do not recall TI ever stating a desire to transform his propensity to analyze into a more effective mode of spiritual endeavor. Coming to and stating that desire is surely the first step, as Joe has done so clearly above. Obviously, we cannot tell someone to do it, even though we often do. 
Ultimately, it has to come from within each of us.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 5:35:08 PM
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Hi T.I.,
Yes I am initiated into Kundalini Maha Yoga and follow the lineage of Dhyanyogi Madhusudandasji through his successor DhyanyogiOmdasji.Please do not think I am criticising you at all or anyone on here although I don't agree entirely with all that Yogani says.
I also experienced samadhi in the beginning of Transcendental Meditation in 1976 using the mantra 'IIm'.
I don't use the Iam mantra, I use the mantras I was given by my guru which links me to his personal energies.It seems you don't have the guidance in the path of KMY which is unfortunate.When I started KMY in 2003 I was fortunate to have daily contact with my teacher and could ask any questions my mind and experiences required.During those times I even thought of reaching enlightenment but now I just do the practices because nobody has any idea where they are on the path so no point in getting hung up on it.
The technique of DM is the same as TM and the enhancements are meant to have a progressive effect on the system.
In KMY there are few techniques simply because once one has shaktipat many of the AYP techniques are redundant because the Kundalini is instantly and safely awakened.
Using the Bhutta Shuddi is for japa which is not promoted in AYP and which many would not have the mental stamina for and which Yogani would probably say is counterproductive but which personal experience for many would discount this.Each to his own.
Psychicexplorer the 'guru is in you ' only to a point and from a point in your understanding.When Yogani says you do not need an external guru he is trying to get you to understand that you do not need to follow an external guru.He is correct but only to a point.In my experience one needs guidance and support on this path which is what this forum is ie. an external guru.When one reaches the point of realising that it is necessary to simply do the practices without questioning because there are no answers(as it's experiential)then the inner guru takes over.This is a gradual process as one progresses.
L&L
Dave
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psychicexplorer
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 6:11:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Psychicexplorer the 'guru is in you ' only to a point and from a point in your understanding.When Yogani says you do not need an external guru he is trying to get you to understand that you do not need to follow an external guru.He is correct but only to a point.In my experience one needs guidance and support on this path which is what this forum is ie. an external guru.When one reaches the point of realising that it is necessary to simply do the practices without questioning because there are no answers(as it's experiential)then the inner guru takes over.This is a gradual process as one progresses.
L&L
Dave
Only the weak bend to the point of complete subjugation. Everyone else says the kool-aid tastes great but I must respect that voice inside me that there is something not happening the way it should. If I have a voice inside me telling me that I should use a mantra that was given to me by a different guru rather then the AYP mantra then to me that suggests that the guru within me is guiding me to that course of action. |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Aug 07 2011 : 8:14:15 PM
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TI,
You seem to be a bit on the offensive here. It's like you think you've identified some contradictions and have decided to call out Yogani, implying that he's not an "authentic guru". What do you hope to gain by this? It seems to me that it's only going to cause pain. I'm not saying you don't have some valid questions, but the tone coming across here seems angry and disrespectful. It seems like you're pissed that you've been practicing for four years and you think you should have attained what you've been promised. But has anyone promised you anything? Has Yogani or anyone else ever given you a timeline?
Who says that 'I am' is the name of God and why do you give it so much weight? How about Allah? Tao? That? AYP stresses to not give meaning to the mantra, and you are ignoring that advice. It's your choice and you can change anytime you want. If the mind thinks about meanings, just let go of it. Unless you really feel strongly that its disrespectful to God (i.e. using God's name as a tool), then why worry about it? As far as clearing pathways etc., it does have a particular vibration as every thought does. The vibration is very helpful for these purposes for a lot of people. I can't tell you exactly how it works and I don't know that anyone could. But it does work, and that is all that matters. Obviously, you'll never be able to hold (or know) all the complexity of the reality in your mind, so why try? Let it all go. Do you want to know 10,000 particular things, or do you want to wake up?
Love |
Edited by - chas on Aug 07 2011 8:27:10 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 01:03:33 AM
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Hi Dave, :)
Thanks for your response. I enjoy your writing because it has a level-headed peaceful baseline and I enjoy that.
Hi Chas,
Perhaps I should give you a taste of 'angry and direspectful' so that you have something to compare my writing to? I would, but I try to write from my heart..
I will explain my point of view.
When I was 14 yrs old, I got into yoga. I did most asanas and practiced pranayama until I was drenched in sweat. I could do the full lotus and stand on my head at the same time. I learned about patanjali and samyama. Once, I practiced 'levitation' meditation an hour per day for 30 days straight just to see if I could do it.
At the same time period, as I was growing up, I was reading the Carlos Casteneda books, all of them as they came out. I would practice gazing, searching for power spots, becoming a warrior. I would search for my hands in my dreams and even succeeded in becoming fully conscious in three dreams. I also had the ability to pick up a dream the following night and keep it going for weeks at a time.
During this period in my life, I was told that I was the most intelligent person in western Canada. I had scored the highest on 'aptitude tests'. I had scored 99 percentiles in space relations, abstract reasoning and mechanical relations. I had 97 percentile in math and 95 in clerical ability. I was the head of the chess club, had beat all 10 members to gain that title and also played simultaneous chess with 6 people and beat them all. I've also played chess blindfolded and won! I have pretty good powers of visualization if I put my mind to it. They tried to make me skip a grade in school but I didn't want to. Later, one of my sisters told me that those 'aptitude tests' were really IQ tests.
I was taking flying lessons, judo, was on the students' council and played in a rock band ( I have my grade 9 piano). I had a very busy life.. My father died of cancer when I was 24 and found myself pretty much on my own because my disfunctional family kind of fell apart. No big deal. I survived.
Since then I have been a Rosicrucian, was a member of the SRF for two years, learned about Eckankar/Paul Twitchell and learned how to astral travel. I also got into crystals because I used to cut and polish rocks. I learned about chakras and have always been doing some form of meditation or yoga for most of my life.
My most exciting meaningful experience was when I met Jesus back in 1988. I've written about it a few times on this forum. Since then Jesus is always with me. As a matter of fact, the other day I asked Jesus what "When thine eye be single the body will be filled with light" really meant. Jesus held up a round mirror onto his chest above his heart and I saw beams of bright light coming out of it. I also saw blue sky and white puffy clouds in the mirror, like there was a wonderful landscape inside. I interpreted this to mean that when the eye in the heart is focused on God (single intent) you will experience the light of heaven.
When I found AYP, my idea of meditation was 'sustained concentration' which leads to the body and the mind dissolving ala patanjali. It was the classic definition of samyama.
So, I began to do the AYP deep meditation. Because I have alot of bahkti and a personal relationship with Jesus, I would repeat the "i am" mantra, not as a simple sound, but as if I was repeating the name of God. Mostly I've used "AYAM". This produced very nice states where I felt elevated and grew to shun negativity. I mean, what could be more energizing than calling out the name of God? But then, after reading some of the lessons more closely, I learned that you do not focus on the meaning behind the mantra. Well, it took quite an effort for me pull out the meaning. And, sure enough, the higher vibrations and peaceful anti-negativity states kind of flew out of the window.. I had issues with that.
Gradually, I got to the point in my meditations where I could repeat the mantra and not get distracted by thoughts. But then visions starting appearing and that was fairly exciting.. So, not only had I missed the point that you are supposed to use the mantra like a dead weight that carries you to the bottom of the concious ocean, but I stayed fixed on the surface by the visions. I was also passing directly into dream state and missing the gap between waking state and dream state. It was all very entertaining but I still wasn't doing the proper technique, nor was I transcending.
If you'd like to see what I was into when I first started posting here, you should take a look at this link. This was perhaps one of my most memorable experiences, when my third eye opened:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3395
So, to continue, to help me stay focused on the mantra, I would visualize the letters of the sound as I would subvocalize them. This helped to keep focus the concentration and I also learned that this procedure activates the throat chakra as well as the lower tan tien. At this point I'm still doing the DM procedure wrong, but I'm reading about the purification that the mantra does and all the effects so I was thinking that I'm still on the right track. After a few months of doing that, during one meditation session when I had gone back to using a visualized "I AM", I focused just on the "I", the letter "I", and tried to sustain that focus. Well, everything dissolved, there was just me (the subject) and the brilliant yellow/white "I" and much bliss. It felt like the world had stopped. It was a superconsious state or a state of samadhi. Then I really started to wonder what DM was all about. I really didn't have a clue that I was so far removed from DM, and all that time the inconsistencies in the techniques kept niggling at me.
Recently, I read the David Rosenthal Book called "Transcendence" and read about the transcendant state, how effortless it was to get into that state, and what that state's characteristics were. That made me realize that I had missed the boat completely. I do remember, perhaps 30 or 40 times, when during meditations my consciousness would dip/fade/falter and there was a little spec of white light that I seemed to go in and out of, and it did feel kind of pleasurable, but it never lasted very long and I've always tried to keep the mantra going throughout. I also remember other techniques (like Ramana's self inquiry) that brought me to this wonderful state of being bathed in white light, joy and bliss and I really really wanted to learn how to stay in there.
So, I started to question what transcendence is. I bought the NSR lessons (which is supposed to be TM) and read the techniques. I tried the technique and it gave me a serious headache. Then I started wondering if the headache was a result of my sub-vocalizing the mantra. Then I learned Maharishi's mechanical dissertation of TM. I also found Deepak Chopra's rendition on how to perfrom Transcendental Meditation. Deepak says to 'think' or 'remember' the mantra. I also found the TM mantras on the net and also learned that Samyama is called the TM-Siddhi technique. The procedure is just like AYP's samyama, but the sutras are different.. So I started to investigate why. I noticed other differences in techniques compared to other teachings, like the AYP spinal breathing compared to Yogananda's spinal breathing, like ujjayi etc.. It seemed that most of the techniques or practices in AYP were somewhat different from others. Not that this mattered to me, but it did make me wonder why I could spend 4 years thinking I was doing Deep Meditation when I actually wasn't.
And, I thought I'd mention this. When I first 'joined' AYP, I read all the lessons, even copied them all into a notepad text document and reformatted the short lines so I could read the lessons more easily and do quick searches. I bought nearly all the books, read the Secrets of Wilder twice and really got into it. I mean, this is my life. I live for yoga, meditation and learning about the mystery of life..
So, if I may be so egotistical and self-centered, if an intelligent person like me could completely miss the boat of how to perform Deep Meditation, I'm willing to bet that others are missing the boat as well.
It is my right to ask questions. It will definately help my understanding, and might help others.
One thing you said:
quote:
Obviously, you'll never be able to hold (or know) all the complexity of the reality in your mind, so why try?
Have you ever hit the superconscious state, where the mind becomes a servant, supremely fast and efficient? If you did, you might have some idea that 10,000 particular things is a pin-prick to superconsciousness. Have you ever read anything about Buddhism and the jhanas? The jhanas are states of bliss/joy/equanimity that empower and focus the mind. The jhanas are sought, because, once emerging from a jhana, the mind is super powerful. It is at that time that you are supposed to use the mind for self-inquiry. See Ajahn Brahm's "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond" or Shaila Catherines' "Focused and Fearless"
http://www.amazon.com/Focused-Fearl...p/0861715608
The other thing is this. There is only one mind. We all share it. It is simply the case that we have led ourselves to believe that we have our own mind. Once the bottle is broken and the genie pops out, one learns what ominprescence, omniscience and omnipotent really means. It is beyond superconsciousness, so I hear.
I do not mean to offend Yogani with my questions. Yogani has done some very good work here, making meditation techniques available to the world, being a presence here on the forum and I really admire that. I would have thought that any question or inconsistency that I could present would not even bother someone with his experience and mindset. Unflapable. Regardless of enlightenment or not, the human mind is still inconsistent and bound by it's customary language and culture which is definately a deterrent to good communications. Hopefully we can all resolve our differences to the benefit of others.
:)
TI
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 08:20:28 AM
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Hi TI,
In the 1900's there were people in the "Philosophical Society" who would endlessly analyze and talk about the different religions, philosophies, religious experiences, meditation etc. They weren't really interested in practicing any of those things, just talking about them and analyzing.
Perhaps you are that kind of person, in which case, I will retract what I said about not analyzing. It is anybody's right to analyze all they want. It is obvious that telling you it doesn't lead to enlightenment doesn't make a difference to you, and that's fine actually; there is nothing wrong with analyzing. much of our society is built on a lot of analysis. That's how you understand and build things.
Having said that, meditation and enlightenment doesn't really yield to analysis since it belongs to the nagual. So people will tire of answering questions, and the questions will, in general, be left unanswered.
There is a lot of literature out there on philosophy and logic however, where those things are discussed ad infinitum. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 08:52:03 AM
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Hi TI,
I think I am kind of like "in love with you" or something. I have a particular weakness for people with high IQ. My IQ is about 100, "normal", that is right in the middle of the distribution, and most frequently occurring. I suspect that most people on this forum have higher IQ than me. I wish I had a stronger intellectual aptitude because I enjoy academics and I could have gone much farther if I could have been a stronger learner. When I get to interact with others who are exceptionally high IQ, I tend to become an admirer.
I read your autobiographical sharing with particular interest. It sounds like family dysfunction and loss of your father made it difficult for you to really put your high intellectual aptitude to maximum use. I am curious: Did you go to college? How was it? And I am wondering: What is your living situation now? What is your employment? Do you share a house? Do you see people from your family of origin?
Bewell |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 09:28:02 AM
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Intelligence is both a blessing and a curse.
Love!
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 09:44:21 AM
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Thanks TI for the clarification. Glad to know you weren't intending to be disrespectful or offensive. It just seemed that way to me. I was merely pointing out what appeared to be coming across, from one particular perspective. Regarding the mantra, repeating it, subvocalization and what not; what i do is this: pratayahara -> resting in stillness; from naked awareness/stillness/silence, then starting the third enhanced mantra (shree om shree om ayam ayam namah namah), subvocalizing it for a few moments, back to resting in silent awareness, aware of the mantra from that. Mantra runs on autopilot (mind simply repeats it), I rest as silent awareness. That's all.
Wishing you the best,
Chas |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 11:12:47 AM
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Hi TI:
Unfortunately, intellectual intelligence counts for nothing in yoga. In fact, it is a liability, as we have been discussing. Perhaps this is why Jesus said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."
Fortunately, the kind of intelligence we need for yoga is in infinite supply in all of us. All we have to do is let go into it, becoming it. This is what the simple techniques of yoga are about. There is nothing more to understand than that.
The guru is in you.
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 11:20:00 AM
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TI all this analysis reminds me of a story from Red Dwarf:
Despite serving in the Space Corps for fourteen years, he never managed to become an officer, only to advance himself from third technician to second technician. He has attempted to pass the astronavigation exam, required to become an officer, 13 times, but has failed on every occasion, frequently because he spends the allotted revision time indulging his talent for calligraphy and design in the creation of elaborate timetables, leaving no time for actual preparation. In the ensuing panic, he often takes up chain smoking and becomes dependent on stimulants in an attempt to condense months of complex learning into just a few days. In turn, this has pushed Rimmer to several psychotic episodes and breakdowns during exams, and on one occasion caused him to write "I am a fish" repeatedly on the exam paper. However, he believes he has been kept down is due to an incident where he was invited to the captain's table and humiliated himself when served gazpacho soup, which he demanded be taken away and brought back hot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Rimmer
I remember reading about the Western Magick: Qabalah and Tarot and all the rest. After reading about the Hebrew alphabet and Astrology I put the book down and thought: Why the hell do I have to learn all this when meditation is so simple?
Meditation is so simple - why can't we accept that?
Pick a system and do it |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2011 : 8:08:33 PM
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Good call woosa, the Qabalah is indeed a good path for those who over analyze. I used to have friends who were into the qabalah and OMG it was hard to "understand".It seemed like they were trying to discover how everything is connected or something. Reminds me of someone wanting to take the stairs up the empire state building. I mean, exercise is good, but too much is agonizing. One reason I like meditation also!
and about intelligence: "IQ" tests were made by intelligent people. If you stop and think about that, you will see where I'm going. They pick stuff that is easy for them and hard for others. Psychologists are discovering that IQ tests are skewed in ways that don't recognize all forms of intelligence. Imagine a very intelligent person is born into a tribe that lives in the jungle. An IQ test would show him to be a moron, even though he would thrive in the jungle where an intellectual would quickly die. That is because intelligence is a propensity that is formed by culture. So if your intelligence has formed along lines that are not generally accepted by your culture, you won't be considered intelligent.
Needless to say, i am not at all impressed by intelligence.
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