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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 29 2011 : 6:54:06 PM
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Hi Tibetan Ice,
Wow, a lot of questions there. But I will try and answer them as best as I can:
Before the '7 months' I was doing the mantra meditation for 3 or so months, once a day for about 10 minutes. I gave up. 3 or so months later I started again. I did mantra meditation once a day for a few months.. then was advised to add in pranayama. I did that for 5 mins then mantra for 10 for the next few months. Then I was advised it should be twice a day, so for the next few months I was doing 20 mins of mantra in the morning, but more often around lunchtime as I had work, and 10 mins of prana followed by 20 mins of mantra in the evening.
In the beginning I sat cross legged. Then for the final few months I was sitting on my bed knees bent with my back against the headboard.
I subvocalised the mantra I think.. that is I said 'I am.... I am.... I am....' to myself.
I felt myself drifting off and found it hard to stay awake quite a few times when I meditated. During this, I would often have vivid images as you do when you are slipping into sleep and you're sort of half dreaming.
I don't think I experience a time when there were no thoughts or no mantra, but once I suddenly noticed that my breath had gone absolutely still.
I would say I tried hard. I am determined to make this work, I believe it will help me - but it's also given me high expectations.
I cupped my hands together on my lap.
I was meditating in a quiet location, in my room. Sometimes I did it outside on my lunch break at work, or on the train, but not every day.
I'm 22, a social drinker but not too often - I probably get drunk every 2 weeks or so. I'm often a recreational drug user but not heavily at the moment, probably about once every 6 months. I'm not on any medication.
My father suffers from depression and I have done too - this is largely why I am determined to do this, I have read it will help. I have tried medication and counselling in the past but am stable enough at the moment not to go down that route again. Perhaps I am expecting this to 'cure' me.
Besides that, I haven't had any serious medical problems or addictions.
:)
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2011 : 12:28:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Queen
Hi Tibetan Ice,
Wow, a lot of questions there. But I will try and answer them as best as I can:
Before the '7 months' I was doing the mantra meditation for 3 or so months, once a day for about 10 minutes. I gave up. 3 or so months later I started again. I did mantra meditation once a day for a few months.. then was advised to add in pranayama. I did that for 5 mins then mantra for 10 for the next few months. Then I was advised it should be twice a day, so for the next few months I was doing 20 mins of mantra in the morning, but more often around lunchtime as I had work, and 10 mins of prana followed by 20 mins of mantra in the evening.
In the beginning I sat cross legged. Then for the final few months I was sitting on my bed knees bent with my back against the headboard.
I subvocalised the mantra I think.. that is I said 'I am.... I am.... I am....' to myself.
I felt myself drifting off and found it hard to stay awake quite a few times when I meditated. During this, I would often have vivid images as you do when you are slipping into sleep and you're sort of half dreaming.
I don't think I experience a time when there were no thoughts or no mantra, but once I suddenly noticed that my breath had gone absolutely still.
I would say I tried hard. I am determined to make this work, I believe it will help me - but it's also given me high expectations.
I cupped my hands together on my lap.
I was meditating in a quiet location, in my room. Sometimes I did it outside on my lunch break at work, or on the train, but not every day.
I'm 22, a social drinker but not too often - I probably get drunk every 2 weeks or so. I'm often a recreational drug user but not heavily at the moment, probably about once every 6 months. I'm not on any medication.
My father suffers from depression and I have done too - this is largely why I am determined to do this, I have read it will help. I have tried medication and counselling in the past but am stable enough at the moment not to go down that route again. Perhaps I am expecting this to 'cure' me.
Besides that, I haven't had any serious medical problems or addictions.
:)
Hi Queen :)
First off, what I am about to say is my opinion and probably does not represent AYP philosophy, but it might. The point is that, I am talking to you.
Do you think it is possible that you are undoing any progress by getting drunk every two weeks?
quote:
Alcoholism is associated with dampened activation in brain networks responsible for emotional processing, including the amygdala.
Emotional processing is how we react to emotions, such as anger.
The Dalai Lama says "no drinking or drugs for serious meditators". :)
Now, I don't know how much you are drinking when you do, but drinking or doing drugs affects the parts of the brain that you are training in deep meditation. Have a look at this page:
link: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...a63/aa63.htm
Now, I am not judging you or your behaviour. I'm just pointing out that almost all meditation manuals I have read say to say "no to alcohol and drugs". It is counter productive. That is all.
I want you to succeed. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it. It may be hard at first and take much discipline, but it is worth it in the long run.
Apart from that, I have a few suggestions.
1) Do you spend 2 minutes impassionately watching your thoughts before you start up the mantra? If not, you should try it. It sets the stage. It also trains you to become the witness to your thoughts, putting space between them and 'you'. This is very valuable training, because it is key to not reacting to thoughts or emotions like anger.
2) Instead of subvocalizing the mantra, try "thinking or remembering" the mantra. It is at a finer level of detail, on the same level as thoughts that appear in your mind. It is so easy to subvocalize the mantra and then let that keep going while thinking other thoughts. That is non-productive. The mantra is supposed to be a thought at the same mental level as the other thoughts that pop into your head. That is why TM meditation teachers say to "think" or "remember" the mantra.
My definition of subvocalizing is this: When most people read, they subvocalize the words as they read them. They mentally repeat the words as sounds, like they were reading the words out loud, but without actual sound. Have you ever tried to read without subvocalizing? It is at a finer level. That is the same level that you are supposed to effortlessly 'think' the mantra. It makes a difference.
3) When thoughts arise, don't give them any energy. Just keep favoring the mantra. Just ignore the thoughts, don't pay attention to them. You can acknowledge that the thoughts (or visions) are there, but then shift your attention back to the mantra. This is very valuable training as well. The ability to shift attention away! You will soon see that by training your attention in this way, when real-life situations come up that could potentially really make you mad or react strongly, you will simply acknowledge the thoughts or emotions that come up and keep your space from them. You will see "here I am and here is the thought". That puts you in a better position as to whether or not you decide to react to the thought. It is the realization that we are not our thoughts, but the witness to our thoughts.
4) It is best to have a quiet place to meditate, especially at first. The way I look at it is this. Meditation takes you deeper than sleep. If you wouldn't feel secure sleeping in a certain place, then you shouldn't be meditating there. Just that insecurity will prevent you from going to any depth.
I would hope that you might try these refinements for a week or so and then let us/me know if they make any difference.
If you do have serious anger management problems, the best therapist I know is Eckhart Tolle. I would purchase his book or CD called "Practising the Power of Now" and pay particular attention to the section on the pain body. I have both the book and the CD. Tolle claims you can get enlightened by just listening to his voice. I like his intelligence and sense of humour. But more importantly, he is a fist class therapist.
I sincerly hope this will help.
I will pray for you.
God Bless and keep you safe.
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Aug 30 2011 06:12:40 AM |
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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - Sep 02 2011 : 7:02:55 PM
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Thanks for your advice :)
I fully understand the disadvantage alcohol puts you at.. Unfortunately, it's a shame I live in a culture where social life is synonymous with booze, but I'm not strong enough to detach myself from that at this point.
I am familiar with Eckhart Tolle. I have read 'The Power of the Now' and listened to one of his lectures. I'm not going to lie, I do find him irritating. Nevertheless I agree with what he is saying, and 'Practising the Power of the Now' arrived from Amazon this morning :) I will let you know how I get on.
I think I understand your distinction between 'remembering' the mantra as opposed to subvocalising it. I find it impossible not to subvocalise words when I read, however. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2011 : 01:35:34 AM
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Hi Queen :)
It is a shame about alcohol. It's so false and cheap.
There is a part inside you that is so filled with peace, joy and immense bliss, that it makes an alcohol high (or should I say low) or any high from drugs pale in comparison. And the good part is that discovering that part of you, the Light of Bliss, is attainable by anyone in this life.
You have some of the tools. Deep Meditation will let you dip into that Bliss, if you do it correctly and persist until you do. It is called Transcendence in TM.
Also, sitting down and meditating on "Who am I?", trying to find the feeling of "I am" (not a thought but the feeling), will reveal the light of your bliss too. It is who you are. It will change your perception.
In hopes that you truly discover your real self, I dedicate this video to you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtH0DDJorM
Please let me know how you get on.
AUM SHANTI
:)
TI |
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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2011 : 10:20:07 PM
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| I completely agree, and I know there is bliss to be felt that is far beyond the escapism of alcohol. I am in such support of all of this, I have no doubts... I am just finding it impossible to actually reach it. |
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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2011 : 10:25:06 PM
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| And the video made me completely switch off... It's too cliche. Sorry. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2011 : 02:05:21 AM
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Queen, when I'm like that with meditation, I just quit. And I put on a youtube video with good music and I listen to it. That's the only thing I can concentrate on. Listening to music. And then I preferrably listen to some spiritual music that will pump some stillness into me because it's on a nice frequency. I don't have to "do" anything. Just listen and absorb. Then relaxation comes. Takes away the pressure of having to do some special practice in some special way.
Much love to you! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2011 : 05:05:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Queen
I I am just finding it impossible to actually reach it.
You are trying to grasp something, to obtain another possession. It cannot be reached ot taken, it is your true state. The harder you strive to obtain it, the more the mind is free to cloud your infinite nature.
Let go of the mental idea of bliss as a feeling, or a way of being, it is what you are, it is not something that you can become, it is not a state like happiness, exciement, contentment. You are bliss itself. Like being the Sun and wanting to be a ray of sunlight, you are already the source of the light, the light itself and all it illuminates.
Meditate or not it doesn't matter, you have begun looking so you will find, time does not matter because you contain all time and all space. You think you have meditated for 3 months because you remember that you did, you do nothing except what you do right now. You accumulate nothing, waste nothing, go nowhere, become nothing.
Give up searching, give up attachment to ideas and thoughts, work at it ceaselessly every moment. Just be.
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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2011 : 08:15:39 AM
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emc - could you recommend any spiritual music?
karl - I'm just finding it so hard to just 'be'.. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2011 : 08:37:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Queen
emc - could you recommend any spiritual music?
karl - I'm just finding it so hard to just 'be'..
you are doing fine, just keep trying. You are like someone in a Coma, keep listening and keep trying to wake up. You will find what you need to pull you out of the spell you have fallen under. It is like the difference between the dream state and awakening state, you are the same in both. No one said it would be easy when you so enjoying the dream.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2011 : 11:25:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Queen
emc - could you recommend any spiritual music?
karl - I'm just finding it so hard to just 'be'..
you are doing fine, just keep trying. You are like someone in a Coma, keep listening and keep trying to wake up. You will find what you need to pull you out of the spell you have fallen under. It is like the difference between the dream state and awakening state, you are the same in both. No one said it would be easy when you so enjoying the dream.
You are only 22, it's incredible that you are considering any form of self discovery. At that time in my life I was finding a different expression of self discovery
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emc
2072 Posts |
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Queen
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 08:27:38 AM
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Hi everyone,
So it's been a while since I've posted on here in regards to the problems I was having that I shared on this thread...
Since September, I picked up the mantra meditation again and took the advice from Tibetan Ice - I am 'remembering' the mantra and not sub vocalising it. I am trying my hardest not to drink, but everytime I am in a situation where I feel I have to, I become frustrated and angry at myself and my friends for involving me in that situation. Thanks for the songs EMC - I listened to them for a fair bit.
I feel I still feel the same.. I know it has only been 2 months since this thread but it has now been over a year since I discovered and started all of this.. giving up on and off through frustration and anger throughout. I had a moment of 'spaciousness' in my head about 3 weeks sgo that a friend informed me was progress. But it isn't enough to convince me to continue after all this time.
As I write this I am becoming tearful with the amount of time I feel I have wasted in persuing something that is doing nothing for me.. I am on such thin ice with this.. Another severe moment of helplessness and I feel I will give it all up again. Maybe I AM just isn't going to work for me and I need a new method? If that's the case... If I have the willpower to start from scratch again, can I still do everything else in the lesson without I AM as the base? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 08:51:25 AM
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You are giving up too easily, and are too concerned with "results". This holds you back. you need to turn that frustration into more bhakti, and forget about getting results. Just bhakti, and twice daily meditation over a long time and live a normal life the rest of the day.
Don't change the mantra. This is just your mind trying to throw a wrench in the works, same as the frustration you feel. Focus more on the peace of meditation instead of trying to "get something". |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 09:11:53 AM
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Hi Queen,
Well you are in a bit of a pickle. I see now that my original posts could not be helpful. Thanks to Ananda for that
This isn't a sprint. It's a marathon. Think of it like a hens egg, the chicken is inside awaiting freedom, yet from the outside nothing happens. Suddenly the beak breaks the surface. The longer that you sit and stare, waiting for the egg to hatch, time seems to draw out longer and longer.
Can you really know what is wasted?
This is the AYP method. The central practice. You can add other practices, but only when you are stable in DM. However it really isn't necessary to force the pace, things happen in their own good time. The universe unfolds as it must.
It is 40 minutes per day, not 10 hours. You can just sleep a bit less or stop watching TV.
The thing is to continue without any thought of progress. Just like cleaning your teeth. The results will show, but the more you try and will them, the harder you grasp, the further away they will seem. It is that grasping that we learn to give up during meditation. Not grasping, not rejecting. Balance.
You have so many external things that you apply your attention to. It is like your friends encouraging you to go drinking. Your seeing everything as a barrier to progress. Go have fun, no one said that you should be miserable there is no requirement to be a hermit, give up all vices, just try and schedule them a bit. If you miss a day with a hangover or because of something else then don't fret if you don't want to meditate. There is absolutely no reason to put your life on hold.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 2:28:08 PM
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Hi Queen,
I always love seeing your posts as they are often similar to what I wanted to say. As I've posted earlier I have been I AM'ing for past 4 years or so without much percieved progress either. I recently went to an AYP retreat thinking it will do wonders to me (after reading the experiences of others at previous retreats) but found that things didnt change much. Something inside might have happened but nothing obvious that I percieved.
At the same time, I've met few people at the retreat who have been doing AYP for past 2-3 years and had amazing things happen to them (ecstasy/witness/silence).
I dont know what to suggest you but there are a few reasons why I stick to this
- If I have to find solutions to problems in life, I believe nothing else can help me. No psychology, no religion, no books nothing else. If I stop practices I feel very vulnerable as then I know there is no other way to avoid suffering. It is this suffering (or the desire to break free from it) that keeps me at practices
- Now that I know my solution can only be spiritual, AYP is probably the best system that I can trust, easily include in my busy daily life and within my limited dedication/bhakti
- A famous guru says, Life is always trying to show us exactly what we need to see but it is we who resist or refuse to see. May be this is what I need to see. That there wont be any quick results. May be I need to accept the fact that there wont be any awakening in this life. Probably things will start happening when this resistance drops.
- A natural trust in the process and system develops over time (with or without results) and this is a sign of progress too. AYP says, with each meditation practice (and each time we repeat, lose and come back to I AM) progress definitely happens whether we percieve or not. It is important to trust this and trust that progress is happening.
One advice would be not do add too many practices that you cannot do on a daily basis. If Deep Meditation is all you can afford, then do only that. It it important that practices have to be a natural thing, not something forced.
You can by all means quit the practices, come back to them later when you feel like or even try other systems. It hasnt worked well in my case but may be you will find something.
- Near |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 2:51:11 PM
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Hi Near,
Your post and advice radiates "peace". 
Major progress is not measured in energy, vibrations and tingles. It is in the peace & love that you find in your day to day life. In how often you can "laugh" at yourself.
Seems to me that you are on the right track.
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Edited by - jeff on Nov 28 2011 5:35:08 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 3:00:00 PM
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Hi Queen,
Go back and reread your first original post from this thread. And think about this... You are now at a party and actually "noticing" the frustration, not just caught in it.
That is huge.
It is your life & your call on what to do. But, my advice is that you go back and reread Near's post again.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 3:53:28 PM
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Well said Near.
I was looking for a story to illustrate exactly that.
There is a story about a great Guru meeting a student in a forest. The student was sitting on an anthill and had been there for several months. He asked the Guru how long it would take to reach enlightenment. The Guru asked him to count all the leaves on a nearby tree and count each as a lifetime, the student was crest fallen and remonstrated with the Guru over this lack of progress seeing how many lifetimes it was going to take. The Guru then said, the number you counted is not the number of lifetimes it will take you, instead count all the trees and and multiply by the number of leaves on that one tree. That's how long it will take.
The Guru came across another student who had also been meditating for some time in the same forest. He asked the Guru the same question as the first. Again the Guru asked him to count all the leaves of a nearby tree as if each was a lifetime. The student looked relieved and thanked the Guru as at least he knew here was an end. The Guru replied "you are far closer than the time will be far less than one single leaf" |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2011 : 8:28:59 PM
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I was waiting for something to happen with the anthill.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 03:27:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I was waiting for something to happen with the anthill.
Once upon a time there was a lonely anthill.......... |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 08:10:34 AM
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How lonely could it be with someone sitting on it for months?
Where i live, you couldn't meditate sitting on an anthill for an hour. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Nov 29 2011 08:11:49 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 09:00:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
How lonely could it be with someone sitting on it for months?
Where i live, you couldn't meditate sitting on an anthill for an hour.
Sometimes the loneliest anthills are those in a crowd
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 12:23:23 PM
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Hi folks,
Just to cheer Q up - in my case I am definitely getting extra energy and clarity from day 1, which is great, but not sure about the next stages when I read Karl's writings about his condition. It seems that later stages of this process are about some weird condition far remote from a normal state. "You accumulate nothing, waste nothing, go nowhere, become nothing" - does this sound any good? It sounds like you don't even exist.
To be honest the more enlightened posts I read the more I am worried about the whole enlightenment business so slow progress is not necessarily a drawback  .
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 2:36:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
Hi folks,
Just to cheer Q up - in my case I am definitely getting extra energy and clarity from day 1, which is great, but not sure about the next stages when I read Karl's writings about his condition. It seems that later stages of this process are about some weird condition far remote from a normal state. "You accumulate nothing, waste nothing, go nowhere, become nothing" - does this sound any good? It sounds like you don't even exist.
To be honest the more enlightened posts I read the more I am worried about the whole enlightenment business so slow progress is not necessarily a drawback .
It's entirely a natural state, just seeing life as it is without the accumulated rubbish.
It's really notes single to pick the correct words. Even meditation is paradoxical in its practice. Don't attach, don't push away. It's like two magnets placed pole to pole, repulsion and attraction are fractions apart and learning to balance between is difficult at first.
So 'nothing' isn't exactly nothing it isn't remote, it is the opposite. Fully engaged, just covered in a none stick coating. On one hand experiencing the sensation of movement, on the other complete stillness, both combined without any friction. Interacting with full engagement and compassion but with no attachment..
Some think it is a different place, it is not, the stillness is within and paradoxically it is moving and there is no place where it is. Even writing it,this just looks like weird riddles. Yet it makes complete sense.
Don't worry, you won't find yourself floating in the ether without an oar. You will become more engaged because you are without the need for separation. Free to act.
This is new for me, it is only a beginning like opening the eyes for the first time, I don't think I have even propped myself up and looked around yet. So practice still goes on as always. So these are not later stages you just see it that way. Seriously, it is what you are, it's just your refusal to discard the stories....as it was mine.
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7 months and nothing has happened
