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rowan74
Germany
8 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 10:52:12 AM
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Hello everyone!
I've been practicing fairly regular with the mantra AYAM, some days there's more inner turmoil, other days there's less...here's my question: the last couple days there were moments ("gaps"?) between the mantra repetitions and quite often there's simply nothing, no thoughts, just silence (apart from my tinnitus  ) and I'm tempted to just focus on this nothingness. But I don't think that's what I'm supposed to be doing.
Anybody else had this? How would you deal with this "temptation"/scenery? Just come back to the mantra again and again?
thanks for your opinions on this
take care |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 11:05:47 AM
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quote:
Just come back to the mantra again and again?
Yes, exactly. That's what we are supposed to do in Deep meditation. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 11:50:46 AM
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Hi Rowan,
This is something that I think a lot of people get confused about. If you read the instructions for Deep Meditation carefully you can find the answer. The instructions say:"If you find that you are off the mantra, and into thoughts, then you gently favour the mantra again". But if you are off the mantra and into silence, then you don't go back to the mantra.
So in this case: You rest in the silence.
If whilst you are resting in the silence you have the thought: "Oh, I'm in silence, should I be repeating the mantra or not?" then that is a thought. And when a thought arises, you simply favour the mantra. So it becomes like this: Mantra... silence (no thought, no mantra)... thoughts arise... gently favour the mantra again. It is a kind of dipping in and out of silence, often with thoughts and the mantra happening at a very subtle level. Gradually the thoughts become less and less, and the silence begins to take over.
Christi |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 12:07:23 PM
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Christi:
quote:
The instructions say:"If you find that you are off the mantra, and into thoughts, then you gently favour the mantra again". But if you are off the mantra and into silence, then you don't go back to the mantra.
Really???
didnt know this...could u (or anybody) put a link with yogani talking about this point please? Or maybe yogani could clarify this...
Thanks in advance. |
Edited by - miguel on Jan 17 2011 12:08:40 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 12:13:20 PM
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Hi Miguel,
Yogani discussed it here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...._ID=678#2269
"Hi Weaver:
It sounds like you are having good results with the mantra without interrupting the process to introduce the thought "let the mind be relaxed." So I do not recommend adding that extra thought, which is a move to less inner silence not more. It is not necessary to keep picking the mantra up over and over if you are absorbed in it. It is okay to be absorbed like that. It is not concentration. It is samadhi, which is absorption in inner silence.
In Patanjali's yoga sutra's it is a three stage process comprising the last three of the eight limbs of yoga:
1. Concentration - attention on an object (dharana)
2. Meditation - dissolving of the object (dhyana)
3. Absorption - pure bliss consciousness with no object (samadhi)
All of these are included in our easy deep meditation procedure. First we pick up the mantra (1). We don't try and keep it as a rock solid clear pronunciation -- we just easily repeat it inside, letting it go how it will to less and less distinctiveness (2). At some point we will lose the mantra completely (3). Then we will be out again on some thoughts or feelings and pick it up again (1). Or, if we stay in (3) for the entire session, that is fine. We don't have to deliberately pick up a thought to come out so we can pick up the mantra again. In fact, if we do that, we have had a thought already, and that is the time to pick up the mantra instead (1). We can do this in a very fuzzy way, with the mantra barely touched as a faint impulse. Wherever we left off in clarity of pronunciation is where we pick up the mantra again. That is the easiest, most natural and effective way to be going inward. It is highly efficient. As soon as we become passive in the process (like "observing" or "relaxing"), we are losing the natural inward momentum set up by the mantra procedure. It is not a plus to diverge in this way.
In the end, concentration, meditation and samadhi are all happening in virtually the same place in the mind/body, blended with inner silence. That is where you appear to be in the process you described. It is the same mantra procedure going forward from there. No change is necessary.
Keep in mind that your meditations will not likely stay in this mode all the time. As purification advances, the experience will change. You may find yourself back out in surface thoughts at any time, like the original inquirer above. It is not a bad thing. And she can find herself in absorption at any time too. It is all part of the process of purification going forward. The experience will change over time. Guaranteed!
It is very important that the procedure with the mantra not change through all this. If we keep adjusting the procedure to what we think fits our experience in the moment, we will not have a stable and effective long term practice. And that is a big "uh oh."
"
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Edited by - Christi on Jan 17 2011 12:15:19 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 12:32:41 PM
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I see...
Thanks so much christi. I used to go back to the mantra when in shamadi (very pleasant state and didnt like to pick up the mantra again...but i tought that samadhi was scenary also...and i used to look for my mind and the mantra again)...
Good news, hehe |
Edited by - miguel on Jan 17 2011 12:33:52 PM |
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rowan74
Germany
8 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 1:03:10 PM
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thanks to Christi for the fast reply and the info.
So far I just sat there and then after a few seconds started wondering "is this ok? I probably should focus on the mantra again..." But after some time it simply pulls you back into stillness and you just sit there, and then again a thought "oh, my breath..." and back to the mantra until the next "pull"
Exactly what Christi wrote: "a kind of dipping in and out of silence"
thanks again |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2011 : 6:13:22 PM
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I think this is a very important point and it is not included in lesson 13. ¿Is there any other lesson talking about this?
I think its very important.Knowing this now made all the difference in my practices today. Didnt know about this and its a key point in my opinion...and i suposse that many other dont know about this also...
The quality of my dm practice was very different today knowing this.Deeper and more bliss.
Very important to include it in the lessons i think...
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Edited by - miguel on Jan 18 2011 6:14:46 PM |
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kaserdar
91 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 05:44:55 AM
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Hello Miguel,
If we realize we are off the mantra when in deep silence, it is still a thought which is "realizing we are in silence and off the mantra" so then there is no silence any more so we go back to mantra. If you are in silence and don't realize you are off the mantra then no problem stay there. But as long as you realize, you go back to mantra.
Please correct me on this if I'm wrong. So for me basic instruction of DM says it all "When you realize you are off the mantra come back to it". Doesn't matter if you are in silence or lost in thoughts.
Thanks |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 08:00:24 AM
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Im a bit confused now...yogani, could you clarify please?
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 09:53:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Im a bit confused now...yogani, could you clarify please?
Hi Miguel:
Coming back to the mantra when we are deep is coming back to a very faint and fuzzy sensation of the mantra, very close to stillness. This will take us deeper. Thinking still comes up in stillness in a faint and fuzzy way (a faint sensation of knowing we are not on the mantra), and this is the same way we pick up the mantra again.
It takes some practice to get the knack of it -- allowing the mantra to be that faint, and not taking it all the way back out to a clear pronunciation on the surface level of the mind, which will seem clunky when we are going deep.
Deliberately (by choice) "resting in stillness" when we know we are off the mantra is not a progressive practice, and not AYP deep meditation.
"Resting in stillness" is something we do in samyama practice after picking up sutras, also in a faint and fuzzy way. But that is a different practice, done after deep meditation in our sitting routine, not to be confused with deep meditation, which is proactive with the mantra at more and more refined levels in the mind. If we do that, then samadhi and all of life will take care of itself.
The procedure for deep meditation is always the same -- favor the mantra whenever we realize we are off it. This will be occurring on many levels in the mind, from gross (surface) to very subtle (deep). Whenever we have a choice, we choose to favor the mantra. This is choosing to go deeper, rather than staying where we are -- proactive versus passive. In this way we will not fall into the subjective idea of: "Oh, now I am in samadhi. I will just stay right here." That is not meditation. It is hanging on to a temporary condition of the mind and neurobiology. We want to go beyond all such conditions, all thinking, all cognition, and the procedure of deep meditation with mantra will do that, because it accepts no condition, always going deeper. This is what makes the procedure so effective.
This is consistent with the quote given by Christi above, and with instructions in the AYP lessons and books. There are many ways to describe it. It is always the same procedure. In time, it becomes second nature for us, and our life is gradually transformed to be an endless flow of stillness in action and outpouring divine love.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: Another way of saying it is: The instant we think (or sense) we are in a place we should be in meditation, we are not. That is the signal to ease back to the mantra at that level in the mind, which will take us deeper.
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 1:07:33 PM
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Thanks Yogani,
So i understand that when i realize that im off the mantra i must easily pick it up again (fuzzy level).And when there are no toughts and no mantra theres a natural state of samadhi and we are not aware that we are in such state of consiousness...we are gone and its impossible to be aware where or what we are...i cant explain it very well...we are the subject...but whe we are aware and identifyed with the object (our false identifictaion with ego) we ruturn to the mantra again...
Dificult to explain,but is this the idea? |
Edited by - miguel on Jan 19 2011 1:08:24 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2011 : 1:23:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Thanks Yogani,
So i understand that when i realize that im off the mantra i must easily pick it up again (fuzzy level).And when there are no toughts and no mantra theres a natural state of samadhi and we are not aware that we are in such state of consiousness...we are gone and its impossible to be aware where or what we are...i cant explain it very well...we are the subject...but whe we are aware and identifyed with the object (our false identifictaion with ego) we ruturn to the mantra again...
Dificult to explain,but is this the idea?
Miguel, when you are in that space beyond thoughts, in samadhi... that is fine. But if you realize even for a second you are in samadhi, that means you are thinking you are in samadhi, if you become aware that you are in samadhi, you are not in samadhi any more, pickup the mantra, you may repeat the mantra just once and not even entirely once before you are lost in samadhi again, that is fine. But the min you are aware, you know, you are in samadhi, you are not. It's like being is deep sleep, you don't know you are asleep, but if you come to the surface and become aware you are sleeping, then you are not in deep sleep anymore. Just like that, when you are in samadhi, lovely, stay there, but if you become aware you are in samadhi, just pick the mantra at a very fuzzy level. You will go right back into samadhi. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2011 : 11:52:40 AM
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Ok,so...must always go back to the mantra. And when in samadhi the mantra is forgotten in a natarul way...you cant avoid it.Right?
Thanks so much yogani,shanti and everybody. |
Edited by - miguel on Jan 20 2011 11:53:11 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2011 : 11:58:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by miguel
Ok,so...must always go back to the mantra. And when in samadhi the mantra is forgotten in a natarul way...you cant avoid it.Right?
Yes... when you are in samadhi, you just are... when you "know" you are in samadhi you are not... just go back to the mantra the way it comes up naturally... may be the fuzziest of fuzzy "i am"... great... may not even be a full "i am"... that is fine too... but go back to the mantra.
And when you are in samadhi, it does not mean you are unconscious... you may be completely aware and alive and awake... but the min you "know", the min you become aware you are "aware and alive and awake", the mind has come in with an evaluation... you go back to the mantra. It's very subtle.. but you will know.
Thanks Miguel. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2011 : 12:40:58 PM
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| Ok,thanks shanti.I was doing my dm correctly... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2011 : 08:02:56 AM
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Hi Miguel,
Glad to hear you have been doing it right!
I also found this post by Yogani from that same thread very useful in understanding the relationship between the mantra and silence:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...._ID=678#2281
"Yogani wrote:
There is no set rhythm for repetition. Whatever is comfortable, and it can change according to purification going on. No set location for the mantra either. It can locate or not for the same reason. We do not favor any particular rhythm or location. If one happens, fine, but we do not hang on to it. We don't hang on to anything, not even the mantra at any particular level. We let the attention slide ever deeper into inner silence with the ever disappearing mantra".
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Jan 21 2011 08:04:07 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2011 : 10:10:24 AM
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| Very interesting christi.Thanks! |
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rowan74
Germany
8 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2011 : 05:22:48 AM
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Just wanted to add to Christi's quote; in my experience it's exactly that, a "letting go process". It may take a while to get to the point where your mind is able to just let go - easier said than done.
In my case I came to a point where I wanted (!) to let go but had to discover that it unfortunately doesn't work that way (great news for a control freak like me ) but you continue with your practice and bit by bit you learn to trust the process.
Perhaps 'surrender' or 'simply being' would be other good descriptions (like Shanti wrote "when you are in samadhi, you just are... when you "know" you are in samadhi you are not")
"just being" sounds deceivingly simple, but it's certainly not easy when you grow up in a Western society when it's all about "doing"
It's great reading about so many people progressing on the spiritual path |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2011 : 08:29:23 AM
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Hi Rowan,
I agree, there has to be an element of surrender, or it's not going to get very far. I think I confused the issue in this thread when I wrote "you rest in the silence" in my first post above. I should have said: "We let the attention slide ever deeper into inner silence with the ever disappearing mantra", as Yogani did in that thread from 5 years back. He has a better way of putting things than I do.
Realizing that the aim of Deep Meditation was to surrender into stillness was a big help for me. In the beginning I thought it was about repeating the mantra come what may, and if that isn't happening then there is something wrong. So realizing that there was a state of consciousness where you are merged into silence and you don't even realize you are off the mantra and that is a part of the practice, helped me to surrender into that silence. I "hung on" to the mantra less and watched what happened as I let go.
Enjoy,
Christi |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 9:45:25 PM
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| If the moment you are aware you are not in samadhi, then what is the difference between deep sleep and samadhi. Is it that you are in deep sleeping in upright position rather than lying flat on the back. Now you may say there is a difference in awareness, but again per the definition presented here if you are aware then you are not in samadhi. Are we going in a circular logic here? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 11:06:02 AM
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Hi Gentlep,
In full samadhi, there is no division between the observer and the observed, a full merging has taken place. That does not mean you are not aware, there is full awareness. This is why awareness in full samadhi is sometimes referred to as undifferentiated awareness.
When you realize that you are off the mantra, then a division is present between the observed (the mantra) and the observer. So at that moment you are no longer in full samadhi (no longer fully absorbed), and you again pick up the mantra.
Samadhi is not an all or nothing though, there are many grades, and undifferentiated awareness is not a hallmark of all the gradations of samadhi.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Jan 30 2011 12:36:14 PM |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 11:39:00 AM
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| So you are fully aware in samadhi but are not aware that you are off the mantra? What is this awareness then? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 12:40:40 PM
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Hi Gentlep,
It's the blissful awareness of the true nature of Self. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 1:28:28 PM
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| I wish I could understand this better. Whether one gets lost in thought or lost in blissful state, both are just concepts, isn't it? Just one feels better and the other doesn't. Or is there any other difference? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 2:51:22 PM
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Hi Gentlep,
Thoughts are concepts, reality is not. Conceptual existence is unreal, the Self alone is real. Bliss is a side effect of living in reality, of enlightenment, when you come to know yourself as That. |
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question regarding silent moments...
