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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 08 2010 : 3:06:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Lili,
p.s.This is an interesting video by Adyashanti. Towards the end he talks about the difference between everything being "perfect" and everything just being "as it is". And seeing the relationship between those and liberation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3KToKApVo
Christi
Hi Christi, like the vid--kept getting distracted by thinking Adyashanti looks gay  . The issue with stuff like that is that I keep nodding and feeling good while the video is running but when it ends I often go back to old patterns of thinking. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 03:48:06 AM
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quote:
Hi Christi, like the vid--kept getting distracted by thinking Adyashanti looks gay .
Hi Lili
I take it by "gay" you mean happy.
quote:
The only issue is that eventhough I forgave the folks I think I haven't fully because even the thought of seeing and talking to them on any subject fills me with repulsion.
I'd say that's not really forgiveness at all! That sounds more like continued hatred and loathing. 
I think the real question is, why did the experience upset you? I think you touched on it above, when you said that you are holding a grudge against yourself.
For you to have become upset about what happened, you must have been holding onto an image about yourself. You must believe that you are not the sort of person who would be cheated. That you are too smart for that, you are a good judge of character and so on... If you held the image that you are the sort of person who is easily cheated, and then you are cheated, it is no problem, just a happy confirmation of what you already knew.
So you are not that sort of person. You are smart, a good judge of people. And then something like this happens, and it shatters your image. You find out that you are not the sort of person you wanted to believe you were. This is why what happened is perfect. It is perfect because it shows you exactly what you are not. It shatters your image, and it shatters it perfectly.
Then of course there is the anger, resentment, judging and all the rest. But that is not the important thing. What is important is that there was an image, and an attachment to that image. And that was undermined in that moment with all the suffering which is caused by attachment.
So the question is, can you see this whole movement of the mind? Can you see that you had built up an image, and that this event undermined it? The seeing of the image, and the letting go of that image is forgiveness. Then there would not be any more hatred, because the hatred is a projection of attachment to the unreal.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Nov 09 2010 03:54:12 AM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 05:46:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
If you held the image that you are the sort of person who is easily cheated, and then you are cheated, it is no problem, just a happy confirmation of what you already knew.So you are not that sort of person. You are smart, a good judge of people. And then something like this happens, and it shatters your image. You find out that you are not the sort of person you wanted to believe you were. This is why what happened is perfect. It is perfect because it shows you exactly what you are not. It shatters your image, and it shatters it perfectly.
Christi
Hi Christi--I think you are right to say that I haven't forgiven these folks. I think I am not angry and unforgiving because I thought I was proven to not be a good judge of character--I don't care too much how good I am at judging people but because I actually got these people on the job to help them, and they took advantage. So my continued indignation etc is not due to the fact that I misjudged them, and not even so much for the money itself, but because I think they are mean--if that makes sense .
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 10:05:13 AM
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Hi Lili
That makes sense. I think your statement of "I think they are mean" is a perfect opportunity to do Byron Katie's "The Work." It gives you an opportunity to inquire into how believing that these people are mean makes you feel. I would say that it is pretty obvious that believing that these people are mean (and that they shouldn't be) causes you to suffer. So in essence, you are allowing yourself to suffer because you believe something that argues with reality. These people could very well be "mean people." It doesn't really matter though. Whether they actually are, or are not, you believe they are. And you believe they shouldn't be. If you can let go of the thought that "these people shouldn't be mean," then these people are just seen as "mean people," and that is known to be reality. The more you try to change reality, the more you will suffer. You can't change these people into kind, compassionate people. They are how they are. And it doesn't really matter how we label them. They just are how they are. If you can let go of wanting them to be different, then the suffering is going to drop away.
These people probably haven't given a second thought to this situation and probably have continued on with their lives. But you are still holding onto it and suffering over it. Nothing you can do about what has happened in the past other then letting go of it and continuing on with your life. There really is no point to suffering over the way things could have or should have been.
Love!
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2010 : 5:38:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Lili
That makes sense. I think your statement of "I think they are mean" is a perfect opportunity to do Byron Katie's "The Work." It gives you an opportunity to inquire into how believing that these people are mean makes you feel. I would say that it is pretty obvious that believing that these people are mean (and that they shouldn't be) causes you to suffer. So in essence, you are allowing yourself to suffer because you believe something that argues with reality. These people could very well be "mean people." It doesn't really matter though. Whether they actually are, or are not, you believe they are. And you believe they shouldn't be. If you can let go of the thought that "these people shouldn't be mean," then these people are just seen as "mean people," and that is known to be reality. The more you try to change reality, the more you will suffer. You can't change these people into kind, compassionate people. They are how they are. And it doesn't really matter how we label them. They just are how they are. If you can let go of wanting them to be different, then the suffering is going to drop away.
Love!
Hi Carson, I agree with everything you say and used BK a lot for this situation and others. The only issue is that it goes like I run one statement through, calm down and forget all about it for a while then e.g. next day it reappears in a slightly different (or sometimes even the same  ) form. Not sure how to get better at it. Thanks&Cheers, Lili |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 05:43:42 AM
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Lili - you could try one of BK's 'judge your neighbour' worksheets, and do the Work on every single statement. It may take a while, but it seems like there's some gold in them there hills for you on this issue, so might be worth a shot
Here's a link to the website where you can download the worksheet pdf (for free)
http://www.thework.com/thework-jyn.php
I always like what BK said about the judge your neighbour process - 'this is the moment your ego has been waiting for' So let rip!
Best of luck. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 10:57:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
If you held the image that you are the sort of person who is easily cheated, and then you are cheated, it is no problem, just a happy confirmation of what you already knew.So you are not that sort of person. You are smart, a good judge of people. And then something like this happens, and it shatters your image. You find out that you are not the sort of person you wanted to believe you were. This is why what happened is perfect. It is perfect because it shows you exactly what you are not. It shatters your image, and it shatters it perfectly.
Christi
Hi Christi--I think you are right to say that I haven't forgiven these folks. I think I am not angry and unforgiving because I thought I was proven to not be a good judge of character--I don't care too much how good I am at judging people but because I actually got these people on the job to help them, and they took advantage. So my continued indignation etc is not due to the fact that I misjudged them, and not even so much for the money itself, but because I think they are mean--if that makes sense.
Hi Lili,
No that doesn't make sense to me.
So you have found out that your friends are mean, they are cheaters ,and they cheated you. But you are unable to forgive them.
If you were holding onto nothing, had nothing to defend, you could forgive them, and let the matter go in stillness, and give them both big hugs next time you see them (because that's what they really need, yes?).
So I will still ask the same question, what are you holding onto?
(You can ignore my questions if you want).
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 11:25:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by amoux
Lili - you could try one of BK's 'judge your neighbour' worksheets, and do the Work on every single statement. It may take a while, but it seems like there's some gold in them there hills for you on this issue, so might be worth a shot Best of luck.
Hi Amoux, you're the third person who quotes BK after Shanti and Carson so I think I will print out some neighbor sheets tomorrow . Cheers, Lili |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2010 : 11:31:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Lili,No that doesn't make sense to me. So you have found out that your friends are mean, they are cheaters ,and they cheated you. But you are unable to forgive them. If you were holding onto nothing, had nothing to defend, you could forgive them, and let the matter go in stillness, and give them both big hugs next time you see them (because that's what they really need, yes?). So I will still ask the same question, what are you holding onto? (You can ignore my questions if you want).
Hi Christi, good question. I guess this incident triggers a 'string' of related negative thoughts such as 'I might keep getting cheated', 'it's not a safe situation to be in' etc etc which generates fear which I connect to these folks which is why I am not able to give them any hugs just yet but instead want to forget all about them like  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 06:32:24 AM
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Hi Lili,
Thanks for staying with this inqury.
quote:
Hi Christi, good question. I guess this incident triggers a 'string' of related negative thoughts such as 'I might keep getting cheated', 'it's not a safe situation to be in' etc etc which generates fear which I connect to these folks which is why I am not able to give them any hugs just yet but instead want to forget all about them like
I think that is a crucial next step... to move from blame: "It was them, they did it to me", and coming to the first person singular: "I might keep getting cheated", "I'm afraid of losing money/ material objects etc."
So if you are doing the Byron Katie Work, the first statement would go something like:
"My friends shouldn't cheat me, they should not be mean. Is that true?". And you can do the Work on that...
And then the second statement, could be:
"I must not lose everything I have. Is that true?
The first statement is kind of surface stuff... when you do the turn around, it results in : "My friends should cheat me, they should be mean". Which isn't that obvious. As I understand it, for Byron Katie it just means that in that moment, your friends should be just the way they are, because that is how they are. So it's a starting point, accepting what happened.
I think the second statement is potentially a lot more useful. It gets more to the heart of things, which is our fear of losing what we have. Which is, of course, a universal fear.
As I see it, again, if you were holding on to nothing, then you would have no fear of being cheated out of anything, and no fear of losing what you have. Then your friends would not trigger any fear process in you and you could forgive them and give them both big hugs.
So for me, I would ask the same question again... "what is it that you are holding onto?".
And please don't answer if you don't want to.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Nov 11 2010 11:59:58 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 4:46:31 PM
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Hi there Lili/ Christi,
Great post from Christi, I would only add that Byron Katie would likely suggest dealing with the statements one at a time.
So instead of doing "the work" on "My friends shouldn't cheat me, they should not be mean". Is that true?" it would be easier to divide that one into two and to do them one at a time.
For example, "My friends shouldn't cheat me"?
1-Is it true
2- Is it absolutely true?
etc.
Then do "my friends should not be mean"
1- is it true
2- Is it absolutely true
etc.
This makes it easier to do the work successfully and avoids confusion.
Best of luck! |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2010 : 6:42:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Lili,
So for me, I would ask the same question again... "what is it that you are holding onto?".
And please don't answer if you don't want to.
Christi
Hi Christi--I think I will try your system on the weekend when I have more time available. I think the answer is that I am holding on to everything (including my grudge ) but if I get a deeper more meaningful answer I will post it here. Thanks&Cheers,Lili |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 04:49:31 AM
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BK doesn't always put things quite that way.
Sometimes you have to look inside and realise who is doing the cheating and who the betraying.
This is like training practise. Over and over you get the chance to stop cheating and betraying yourself because external events reflect the internal situation.
You feel betrayed because you didn't take the action which would have liberated you from the way you feel.
This allows for at least two courses of action:
1. You get a little tougher and begin to assert yourself in your
world. You betray yourself by not putting this into practise,
the painters simply make that obvious. They are no more than
puppets without any personal intentions. You should thank them
for showing you this.
2. You can accept the situation in which case you will not feel any
more betrayal than a tree feels when it loses it's leaves.
Neither is better than the other as a resolution, but both are better than feeling sorry for yourself which is in itself worthless.
Meditating, getting some inner silence, allows you to understand this. You can act without really acting. You can demand something without personal involvement or wave something away like smoke in breeze.
Forgiving is a strange philosophy that is difficult to do without some silence already present, ortherwise it feels like weakness. This is when you realise there is no one to forgive but yourself.
So, do that, forgive yourself and get to like who you are. |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 07:13:45 AM
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| Thanks Karl--I find it a bit hard to forgive myself. Cheers, Lili |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 08:02:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
Thanks Karl--I find it a bit hard to forgive myself. Cheers, Lili
We like you Lili,
so the least you can do is do the same for yourself
It's hard to forgive yourself when you have been beating yourself up for a long time. Jesus said to forgive your enemy, he just didn't tell you that the enemy is much closer than you think.
Getting used to feeling a certain way becomes a learned habit. The mind considers that it has done a great job in having helped you survive and sees no reason to change because it all seems to have worked out. The mind does not consider that being miserable is particularly dangerous because it doesn't conflict with the first law of surviving at any cost.
This is where you have to help things out, by understanding that feeling miserable can actually be a problem and re-thinking that strategy.
Be gentle with yourself, despite all the horrors of the world, the person that can make things intolerable for you is yourself. That's the real enemy. |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 08:18:17 AM
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Hehehehe thanks--I like you too 
I guess you're right and I should just try to change in some way--easier said than done but as you say worth making the effort. Maybe I need some kind of therapy.
Thanks&Cheers, Lili |
Edited by - Lili on Nov 12 2010 08:20:08 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 1:16:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
Hehehehe thanks--I like you too
I guess you're right and I should just try to change in some way--easier said than done but as you say worth making the effort. Maybe I need some kind of therapy.
Thanks&Cheers, Lili
Do whatever it takes if you truly want to change it must be 100%.
The words 'easier said than done' mean you are not being assertive with yourself. Have no doubt that you can and will no matter what it takes. Tell yourself that infront of the mirror every morning and every evening.
Change begins with you and the world will conspire to help. Step forward Lili and grasp it. |
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American Baba
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 2:47:42 PM
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| Lilly, please allow me to jump in with an additional question for your consideration: How do you feel about the anger itself? In my experience, IF there is any strong emotion (about it)that can sometimes be a useful place to begin. |
Edited by - American Baba on Nov 12 2010 3:05:11 PM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2010 : 5:04:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Do whatever it takes if you truly want to change it must be 100%.
The words 'easier said than done' mean you are not being assertive with yourself. Have no doubt that you can and will no matter what it takes. Tell yourself that infront of the mirror every morning and every evening.
Change begins with you and the world will conspire to help. Step forward Lili and grasp it.
Thanks Karl I think you're right. You seem to have a gift for motivational speaking I feel assertive like a wet noodle but I hope that by applying the advice as given here this may change as time goes by.... |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2010 : 11:48:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Do whatever it takes if you truly want to change it must be 100%.
The words 'easier said than done' mean you are not being assertive with yourself. Have no doubt that you can and will no matter what it takes. Tell yourself that infront of the mirror every morning and every evening.
Change begins with you and the world will conspire to help. Step forward Lili and grasp it.
Thanks Karl I think you're right. You seem to have a gift for motivational speaking I feel assertive like a wet noodle but I hope that by applying the advice as given here this may change as time goes by....
That's the spirit. Even a wet noodle has substance. |
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Emil
Australia
141 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2010 : 05:10:23 AM
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Hi Lili,
By the time you read this you've had a good two weeks to forgive the poor painters :-)
Lately I've been practicing converting emotions into bhakti (Lession http://www.aypsite.org/67.html) and it works perfect. Have a read through, For me it's one of the best things I've ever learned.
Now, there is also a good lesson for you in what happened because generally, in business you shouldn't look for people that you know. You must look for people you can trust and often, those people are the large companies.
Remember that "doing people a favour" and "feeling sorry for people" can sometimes come from the Ego and generally actions that are motivated by ego are not very pure and do not attract a pure response. Also, there is a fair amount of fairness in the universe which means very often businesses that don't make good profit, do so because they're not good at what they do!
So if I was you, next time I would pick the company that I could trust. Also, I wouldn't go as far as hiring those people again to prove that I don't hate them! I think it's alright to feel "not very good" towards people who didn't deal with you correctly. You just shouldn't get stuck in it.
Cheers,
Emil |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 09:20:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Emil
Hi Lili,
By the time you read this you've had a good two weeks to forgive the poor painters :-)
Lately I've been practicing converting emotions into bhakti (Lession http://www.aypsite.org/67.html) and it works perfect. Have a read through, For me it's one of the best things I've ever learned.
Now, there is also a good lesson for you in what happened because generally, in business you shouldn't look for people that you know. You must look for people you can trust and often, those people are the large companies. Remember that "doing people a favour" and "feeling sorry for people" can sometimes come from the Ego and generally actions that are motivated by ego are not very pure and do not attract a pure response. Also, there is a fair amount of fairness in the universe which means very often businesses that don't make good profit, do so because they're not good at what they do!So if I was you, next time I would pick the company that I could trust. Also, I wouldn't go as far as hiring those people again to prove that I don't hate them! I think it's alright to feel "not very good" towards people who didn't deal with you correctly. You just shouldn't get stuck in it.Cheers,Emil
Hi Emil, you're right I am much less worked up abt the painters due to forum support and passage of time  . I know the painters situation may seem trivial, but the real issue is that I have difficulty forgiving a small bunch of people in various contexts and hold grudge for years. The painters thing is only one example. So this is the real reason for asking for feedback. Thanks for the tip will reread that lesson. Thanks&Cheers, Lili |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 1:32:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
small bunch of people in various contexts and hold grudge for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3l30qhEpHw
Nice set of lyrics in this song which fits that perfectly. |
Edited by - karl on Nov 15 2010 1:37:53 PM |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2010 : 5:55:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
[quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3l30qhEpHw
Nice set of lyrics in this song which fits that perfectly.
Thanks Karl--this was a whole lecture . I am trying to let go using multiple modalities and sometimes it works and other times it doesn't work. How about that? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2010 : 06:23:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lili
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Lili,
So for me, I would ask the same question again... "what is it that you are holding onto?".
And please don't answer if you don't want to.
Christi
Hi Christi--I think I will try your system on the weekend when I have more time available. I think the answer is that I am holding on to everything (including my grudge ) but if I get a deeper more meaningful answer I will post it here. Thanks&Cheers,Lili
Hi Lili,
That's great. Holding onto everything, including your grudge!
There is a famous story in India about a man on a train. He is standing up and holding is luggage. It is really heavy, but he doesn't want to put it down. After some time he starts sweating and shaking. Someone says to him: "what are you doing? You are already on the train, just put it down".
So this is the thing. You are already on the train, you can just put it down. In terms of yoga, it goes pretty deep. We are talking about the 5 afflictions (kleshas) which Patanjali discussed in the Yoga Sutras. These are the 5 things that stop us from being enlightened. Let them all go, and that's it. The big lights. Number five is clinging.
If you are doing the inquiry (and I'll offer you the next step as I see it, because it's a bit subtle), I'd say you must be clinging to the idea that you have a future. If you were not clinging to this idea, then you would not have the sense that you need to hold on to money, possessions, or grudges.
Someone once asked Byron Katie if she had plans to expand her School where she teaches and to try and make the Work more available to people around the world. She replied: "I have no plans. I am a woman without a future".
So this is the sense of timelessness (akala in Sanskrit), no clinging to the past or the future.
If you are doing The Work, you could use the line:
"I have a future. Is it true?
If someone is really ripe, then this kind of inquiry could take them completely beyond the issue. Personally I find that it can help a little, but at the end of the day, meditation is a much more sure way of dropping attachments.
I won't ask you any more questions, unless you want me to. In which case I'll happily grill you to the world's end (literally).
All the best
Christi |
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forgiveness etc
