| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 12:22:54 PM
|
| Great job, Katrine. |
 |
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 4:05:01 PM
|
I think now you're touching on the reason some sages have written it is not necessary to make any effort to become enlightened as we already are.
But for most of us it is necessary to make some effort for something .
maybe we just don't agree on what to call it. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 08 2006 4:14:31 PM |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 4:27:48 PM
|
No, I'm not "doing a krishnamurthi".
Read again. And try to feel it rather than mentally process it. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 5:33:39 PM
|
i meant Katrine's post.
But here's a theory along these lines:
What if there's a "small self", or ego based perception of the world,
and a "big self", non ego based perception of the world, and we have
the ability to shift between the two.
the problem is the small self is in pain because of ignorance and desire to be important. So it can only be enticed by grandiose concepts like "riches" and "fame" and "a book directly from God" and "immaculate conception" and "magical powers" and "enlightenment".
maybe the true meaning of enlightenment is the realization that we don't need enlightenment because we don't need anything. That would be complete faith in "God" or whatever.
But since the everyday world normally operates from the small self, we need a "carrot on a stick" approach otherwise the small self would never get to that realization.
So whether there is or isn't, or an effort is necessary or not, all depends on which self is speaking. It depends on the perception of the writer.
If this were true, then "enlightenment" IS a reality from the perception of the small self. It WILL get rid of suffering, make us feel better, etc.
The only illusion is that the small self doesn't understand the nature
of what enlightenment is.
But if this is true, why are we practicing? To protect us from sliding
back to the little self? Or maybe to increase the big self perception?
If so, why not call the path enlightenment? |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 5:42:36 PM
|
Ether said:
But since the everyday world normally operates from the small self, we need a "carrot on a stick" approach otherwise the small self would never get to that realization.
So whether there is or isn't, or an effort is necessary or not, all depends on which self is speaking. It depends on the perception of the writer.
Exactly!
The 'need' for the carrot on the stick also depends on perspective.
|
|
|
|
Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 9:40:27 PM
|
Hari Om
~~~~~~~
Hello Katrine,
Yes, well said... thank you for your insights.
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
|
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2006 : 04:03:35 AM
|
Hi Ether
You wrote:
quote:
But for most of us it is necessary to make some effort for something .
I agree:
quote:
Granted; some effort is needed for me to see truth. But so far, by far the most constructive effort has been the effort I invested in learning how to do nothing gracefully. How to simply be.
In the words of A.H.Almaas (The Diamond Approach):
quote:
EFFORT :Another important factor in the ego activity is that the self is always striving to be a particular way, in order to achieve support. The primary image patterning this activity is the ego ideal. The self tries to approximate a certain ideal, in the hope that if she succeeds, she will be worthy of the support she needs. This ideal is never attained, but the self never tires of trying. Thus, effort is a chronic characteristic of the self-identity structure (The Point of Existence, pg 343)
.
Ether, you wrote:
quote:
maybe the true meaning of enlightenment is the realization that we don't need enlightenment because we don't need anything. That would be complete faith in "God" or whatever.
Exactly.
In the words of A.H.Almaas:
quote:
Ego Ideal
People often decide on certain goals very early in childhood. These goals are largely determined by what we call the "ego ideal". For the normal personality, the ultimate goal is the realization of the ego ideal - to become your ideal, whatever it might be. The problem is that when you are trying to reach the goal, you are separating yourself from your present reality. You are not living in the present, and you are rejecting who you are at the moment... A second way is to live in the present, to be who you are at the moment, as a completeness and a fullness. This means actualizing who you are. At any moment you are who you are, and there is no need to be anything or to go anywhere. It is because you are not who you are that you want to be something, and you create all these goals and aims. ](Diamond Heart Book 3, pg 50)
This is the normal state of the ego-self, for the ego is always trying to get some place, to make itself be a certain way. The ego-self is constantly judging and rejecting its arising state and trying to fit itself into a certain ideal. It is not just being where it is and allowing itself to unfold freely. As a result, it does not understand where it is for it is invested in being somewhere in particular, being a certain way, or in satisfying a particular ideal. And even if this ideal is taken from spiritual teachings, the same mechanism of ego activity is in operation. Trapped in the ego-self, you do not trust that Being itself will take you where you need to go.(Spacecruiser Inquiry, pg 186)
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2006 : 11:36:07 AM
|
| Good choice of "The Diamond Approach" to explain this (not just as reply to Etherfish, but re: my whole point). It's a fascinating and iconoclastic book. But the same point is made in many other ways in many other places, of course. In fact, what I was trying to do was make the point in a way I hoped would ring true for this place/time. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 09 2006 11:37:15 AM |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 05:16:11 AM
|
Jim wrote:
quote:
In fact, what I was trying to do was make the point in a way I hoped would ring true for this place/time.
Well - you certainly got my bell chiming 
BTW: What is the meaning of the word "iconoclastic" 
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 05:17:52 AM
|
Hi Frank
You wrote:
quote:
Yes, well said... thank you for your insights.
Ditto 
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 10:08:04 AM
|
Katrine asked:
BTW: What is the meaning of the word "iconoclastic"
In the context, it is from meaning 2 here:
iconoclast:
1 : one who destroys religious images or opposes their veneration
2 : one who attacks settled beliefs or institutions
and similarly, 'iconoclastic'.
Sample sentence:
'Some people would wish to rid AYP forum of its iconoclastic element'
|
Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 10 2006 10:09:56 AM |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 11:50:53 AM
|
quote:
BTW: What is the meaning of the word "iconoclastic"
David's is the classical definition. But it's come to be used (and was used by me above) to mean irrverently breaking away from past forms and assumptions. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 8:01:09 PM
|
Katrine wrote, from Aalmas:
"For the normal personality, the ultimate goal is the realization of the ego ideal - to become your ideal, whatever it might be. The problem is that when you are trying to reach the goal, you are separating yourself from your present reality. You are not living in the present, and you are rejecting who you are at the moment..."
I understand the concept, but it sounds like he is saying that this is something that always happens when we set and try to reach goals?
Or maybe just what usually happens, and needs to be corrected?
I think it's quite possible to be "in the moment" and "be who you are",
and at the same time have goals. It wouldn't be much of a life just lying in one place "being who you are."
Separating ourself from the present is a major part of what makes humans different from animals. We have the ability to be here, and at the same time imagine. Almost any conscious action we take is a result of imagining it first, by stepping outside the present moment.
We have the ability to meditate, and according to patanjali, Samyama is actually doing three things at once.
so Aalmas must be talking about a common "malfunction" to correct, rather than a general instruction for everything. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Mar 10 2006 8:02:06 PM |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 10:06:35 AM
|
Hi Ether
You wrote:
quote:
I think it's quite possible to be "in the moment" and "be who you are",
and at the same time have goals. It wouldn't be much of a life just lying in one place "being who you are."
Well - these are the paradoxes of Being. To me also, "being in the moment" and "being who I am" is synonymous. However, when this happens, I don't spend one iota focusing on "goals". I am there then. And the life in that one place (Now) is indeed much of a life. (In fact - there is no other life). It is not at all static in the way you describe it. It is constant peace, yet from it flows constant change and spontanious actions.
quote:
Almost any conscious action we take is a result of imagining it first, by stepping outside the present moment.
We are imagined. The imagination of Consciousness itself is never outside the present moment. The imagining is the creation. That is why I become spontanious and thus creative when I am present.
There are of course degrees of awareness. As I am favouring the mantra in deep meditation, so I can equally favour presence over planning ("imagining how to do something") in every day life. I still move; I still clean my house, bake the bread, do my taxes - but I can favour being present while I do them. This way, I always favour Being over "goals".
Of course, it depends on what you mean by goals. My personality may set the goal of cleaning a window. That is needed. But I don't have to "try to reach that goal". I just do it. Same with meditation: I decide to clean my inner window. I don't fuss about it; I don't tryto do it; I just do it. The "trying to do it" implies that something is not quiet right. This is exactly how the personality perceives itself: Lacking. Hence the need of an ideal. When in reality; the need is for being.
It is the goals of the personality concerning the "ego ideal" Almaas is talking about. It fills itself with dreams ("imagining") about a future that is better than today. That dreaming veils the present. The future is never here; Being is always here. The striving to reach these goals are not constructive. My personality never trusts the intelligence of Being. I (my mind) don't trust that it is Being who will take me "there" (here ) - not me. The ego ideal is always an illusion.
quote:
I understand the concept, but it sounds like he is saying that this is something that always happens when we set and try to reach goals?
The "ego ideal"-goals. Yes. Because we become split then.The personality has goals. To Being - goals are reduntant. The goal is the being. Being is its own goal. The more I allign myself to Being, the less I will need goals. Of course I still plan to clean my window and do the shopping. The personality is needed for practical reasons. It is a tool, not a master.
Ether. I love this
Thank you for helping me express myself.
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:00:15 PM
|
Hi Katrine,
I love your post and I think your written english is excellent, something you wrote, I think by accident, stood out to me in a funny way:
The "trying to do it" implies that something is not quiet right.
I think you may have meant quite and not "quiet right" but if quiet was intentional then it makes your sentence perhaps more true than with quite!
Does this make sense???
|
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:16:32 PM
|
Anthem
How brilliant!
I certainly didn't plan it. This sort of thing sometimes happens when I write poetry too. I don't  quiet understand the layers of my own writing until the poem is finished....then it "laughs back at me" with deeper meanings than I anticipated. I love it!
I am also in love with the English language....there is actually a story behind that. I might post it sometime.
quote:
Does this make sense???
Yes and no!
That's why I love it
Thanks, Anthem !
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2006 : 12:58:23 PM
|
| Katrine, random question, do you practice asana? |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 12:58:55 AM
|
Thanks Katrine,
very well explained about a difficult subject.
I understood what Almaas was trying to say, but that subject always brings up the dilemma you wrote about.
As we gain a higher consciousness, sometimes we look back on where we were and think it was all wrong. But it wasn't wrong; we're just different now.
It is my belief that the ego is a tool that was given us that is necessary for survival in this world. Thinking (logic) is another similar tool.
When our consciousness was lower, we used those tools way too much, and
made them too important.
Now we realize we still use them, but not very much. Just a little bit
where they are appropriate, then favor not using them.
It's alright to think and set goals, then return to the present. It's like Mother Theresa helping poor people. She may have had a goal to help as many as she could, but her actions took place one moment at a time.
And then there are times when you don't need to think of the future at all
because God lays out things for you to do. |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2006 : 03:31:35 AM
|
quote:
Katrine, random question, do you practice asana?
No, Jim, I don't. I have never had any training for asanas. (I just picked it up from a book when I was 18). After the breast removal I was in pain for 3 years - the scar tissue made it difficult to do Yoga. Then I found qi-gong and I thought it was great.
Funny you sould ask this, because my back "came off" again two days ago (the snow shovelling episode is probably not fixed).
Question:
Can all the constant ecstacy contribute to "a loosening" of ligaments etc?
I am going to see my chiropractor tomorrow. One visit with him usually fixes the problem.
Question:
Can you recommend an asana I could do right now? (It would have to be an easy one)
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2006 : 12:08:11 AM
|
Can't recommend over the internet, no, sorry. Got to be very careful when you're injured. Glad the chiro helps...easy solutions are a great thing.
quote:
Can all the constant ecstacy contribute to "a loosening" of ligaments etc?
absolutely. it's much slower though. Asana is a coarse method to dissolve large blocks. Meditation is a fine method to dissolve subtler blocks. Physical blocks (which is what inflexibility really is) are the coarsest kind. So it's a bit like using very fine sandpaper to do a rough sanding job, but in the end, the answer is yes: if you meditate and do no asana, your body will slooooowly loosen up. But if that's your goal......do asana, it's quicker. |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2006 : 03:28:42 AM
|
Jim wrote:
quote:
Can't recommend over the internet, no, sorry. Got to be very careful when you're injured. Glad the chiro helps...easy solutions are a great thing.
I understand Jim.
As always - when I am forced to slow down (my back), I become aware of "grey" areas in my life. Issues that I have put off creeps up on me. Afterwards I make the needed adjustments and all is well. One of the things this back episode did for me: I decided to include Samyama at the end of my practises. I think it will help my energy flow. I only use one of the prayers, though: Love.
When my back heals I will start with assanas. Which is your favorite assana web site?
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2006 : 11:50:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by weaver
What I would like would be to be completely happy and content in the now, not by delusion or shutting out thoughts or emotions, but by complete awareness, and I think that is one description of what enlightenment is, and when we are in that state we don't look to the "future" more or try to accomplish anything more in terms of self-development.
Hi Weaver,
This was so 'dead on' for me. Thank you for it.
I believe I will attain enlightment in this life. I am not saying that in a braggy way or anything like that. I just have come to see that our minds are very powerful and what one believes one can achieve.
I remember.....I was sitting with a swami some years back and there was about 100 or so people in the room and he asked the question:
"Who believes they will attain enlightenment in this life?"
Only one person put their hand up. (I couldn't believe that only one person did.)
He looked around the room and said.... "and so it is."
The point was a powerful one for me.
I have small glimpses of that possibility. So I continue on......
I love what Yogani said about "You can only have it by giving it away" To have the aspiration to benefit all mankind with the friuts of one's practice. Beautiful.
Katrine.... What a poet!!!!!!!!!
Your work is sublime. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2006 : 05:14:02 AM
|
Thank you, Babaly
It means a lot to me when the poetry reaches home
May all your Nows be Here |
|
|
|
Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2006 : 03:54:26 AM
|
Katrine,
You say "But it became a more focused drive when I let go of the "becoming enlightened"-thing.". Is this how it is supposed to be? Is it because of the law of karma yoga that Bhagwat Gita talks about- to focus on dury only not on results? |
|
|
|
Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 08:20:42 AM
|
Hi Maximus, I think Katrine is away at the moment.
Louis |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Why I Don't Want to be Enlightened
