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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 2:05:47 PM
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All my life I've gotten good at stuff (I'm good at a bunch of stuff) and moved up ladders. And while I've reached many of the goals to which I've aspired, it hasn't meant a thing to me (for more than, like, a minute). It's not that I had the wrong goals....the problem was the aspiring. I've spent decades trying to fill a void I've naggingly felt in my existence, thinking it'd get all better once I did or got or became a certain thing. Silly.
I don't want to be enlightened. Enlightenment is just another goal to aspire to. Another project. Another thing to work on and get better at. Another attempt to fill a void. Another silly treadmill.
"Enlightenment" is in the future. In the future. In the future (shall I write it one hundred more times?). I want to open myself to the now and get off this ridiculous treadmill. And I want to do it now. To hell with the future. To hell with enlightenment.
And I do AYP because it's what I feel I must do. Much as I brush my teeth.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 2:25:56 PM
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quote:
And I do AYP because it's what I feel I must do. Much as I brush my teeth.
You brush your teeth so you have good teeth . You do AYP so you have a good spiritual life . You brush your teeth everyday so hopefully in the future you wont have to sit through a root canal , you do AYP everyday so some day you will get enlightened. Yes, you may not be brushing your teeth everyday with the expectation that you will have good teeth, you just know that at the back of your mind. Similarly I guess you should do AYP without the expectation of enlightenment, just know at the back of your mind, that is what will happen. Even if you brush your teeth everyday, you may still have cavities depending on your diet and habits, now even if you do AYP everyday you may not find enlightenment in this life time depending on your lifestyle... or will you?
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Edited by - Shanti on Feb 22 2006 2:33:10 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 2:51:38 PM
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"You brush your teeth so you have good teeth"
How often do you think about that when you brush your teeth? Honestly? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 3:02:07 PM
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| Yes, you may not be brushing your teeth everyday with the expectation that you will have good teeth, you just know that at the back of your mind. Similarly I guess you should do AYP without the expectation of enlightenment, just know at the back of your mind, that is what will happen. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 3:54:47 PM
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| INteresting reply. We could talk all day about "the back of the mind", of course. A lot of the surrendering happens at the back of the mind. When you cut the tree branch (sorry all, I'm refering to an email exchange between Shanti and myself), you're also cutting all that back of the mind stuff. You float. You always float. You've always been floating, even if you think you're stubbing your toe. |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 3:56:53 PM
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Hi Jim & Shanti:
Since we can never get rid of desire completely, the way around the enlightenment quest thing is to learn to give it away -- the enlightenment, that is, if that's what we want to call it. After all, enlightenment is a total letting go, so in that sense it is not something we can ever "get." This is part of the bhakti expansion process that goes from redirecting our everyday desires toward our own enlightenment (see lesson 67), and then onward to redirecting our desire for personal enlightenment to serving the enlightenment of others. In this way we end up giving all of our spiritual progress away, and wind up with nothing (actually everything), and that is enlightenment. See this lesson on "getting enlightenment": http://www.aypsite.org/120.html
Of course, we can't easily skip from ordinary personal desires to serving the enlightenment of others. That is what creates proselytizers -- they are takers, not givers. We must have something to give first, and that is what sitting practices are for. If we are experiencing the divine flow within ourselves, it will naturally go to others. That is where it wants to go. That is the so-called outpouring of divine love I mention from time to time. It dissolves the personal enlightenment question, moving it onto a larger stage of endeavor that is no longer personal, but societal.
On the way to that nowhere (everywhere), we can use our desires as stepping stones from one level to the next. Shutting off (or "letting go" of) desires for a while might offer some temporary relief, a band-aid on the unceasing hankerings of this life, but to try and do so indefinitely is to pit ourselves against the forces of nature.
Better to go with the flow, yes? This is the great strength of bhakti. We cannot stop the flow of life, but we can direct it into more evolutionary expressions, beginning with brushing our teeth ... oops, I mean doing our spiritual practices.
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 4:57:34 PM
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Hummm... so we need to float during meditation... but we need to want enlightenment too (Bhakti)... right??? I mean if you don't want something bad enough, would you not just give up? I don't like the dentist (sorry if anyone here is a dentist... nothing personal), so I brush my teeth.... there is a reason why I brush everyday, I may not think about it, but its there. Similarly, the bhakti has to be there... a desire to achieve enlightenment.
Hey Jim, I am new at this, maybe you are far enough where you can say that enlightenment does not matter, but that is one of the reasons I am following AYP... also because I feel much better mentally and physically. For all I know, maybe that is the reason I am not getting anywhere fast enough. I know... float... |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 02:31:32 AM
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Hi Shanti and Jim. Whatever drives you to meditate, God bless you. I say it's good. Personally, I now view enlightenment as possible fantasy, like siddhis and all that cool stuff.
I used to fantasize about being enlightened and healing people and flying, etc. But the meditation seems to melt these ideas away. I believe the ecstatic bliss part, because I feel a small fragment of it, and it grows the more I practice. If ecstatic bliss is all I ever get, I'm totally down.
Maybe ecstatic bliss IS enlightenment... who knows |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 11:23:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Hummm... so we need to float during meditation... but we need to want enlightenment too (Bhakti)... right??? I mean if you don't want something bad enough, would you not just give up? I don't like the dentist (sorry if anyone here is a dentist... nothing personal), so I brush my teeth.... there is a reason why I brush everyday, I may not think about it, but its there. Similarly, the bhakti has to be there... a desire to achieve enlightenment.
Hey Jim, I am new at this, maybe you are far enough where you can say that enlightenment does not matter, but that is one of the reasons I am following AYP... also because I feel much better mentally and physically. For all I know, maybe that is the reason I am not getting anywhere fast enough. I know... float...
Oh, Shanti, this is a very good point. Treasure it. All the confusion, all the conflicting info, all the paradoxes....it's just a big haze of tangled static, isn't it? Doesn't it give you a headache? Don't you get the impression there's no purpose in trying to think this all through? Don't you get the feeling it'd be a total waste of time to fathom this? Aren't you sick of fathoming stuff?
Damned right! Drop it! Drop the whole ball of yarn and dissolve into "I am" and just completely wash your hands of ANY of it, any ideas, any concepts, any trying to do anything. Let it all go. If you can't, well....you're just not yet confused enough. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 12:30:38 PM
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Another way to look at it is enlightenment will *always* be in the future.
I've experienced several things that seem like enlightenment from where I was at before, but I still aspire to have another "enlightenment". And maybe it's a slow steady moving up without any plateaus at all for some people.
So maybe enlightenment isn't like those earthly goals you can reach and wonder about. Maybe it's more like a "direction" your perception travels in.
You just enjoy the direction you're going, without thinking there is an end.
Limits belong more to the physical world. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 1:48:43 PM
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quote:
Another way to look at it is enlightenment will *always* be in the future.
that was precisely my point
But your second paragraph goes back to square one. traveling. progressing. improving. changing. getting somewhere. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 23 2006 1:49:29 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 2:34:14 PM
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| What I would like would be to be completely happy and content in the now, not by delusion or shutting out thoughts or emotions, but by complete awareness, and I think that is one description of what enlightenment is, and when we are in that state we don't look to the "future" more or try to accomplish anything more in terms of self-development. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 4:18:28 PM
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Jim wrote:
"But your second paragraph goes back to square one. traveling. progressing. improving. changing. getting somewhere."
Well, that's what I need for the type of person I am. I need to make an effort. Sure, I enjoy the here and now a good deal of the time, but I'm lazy. If I don't make an effort, I'll never meditate, I'll never read Yogani's writing, I'll never get on this forum. I'll never make contact with other people with like interests and communicate. If I never make an effort, I'll just veg-out with everyone else and watch Jerry Springer for entertainment.
I know there's nothing wrong with that, but I prefere to strive to be better, and somehow help other people to be better by communication. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 4:40:38 PM
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quote:
All the confusion, all the conflicting info, all the paradoxes....it's just a big haze of tangled static, isn't it? Doesn't it give you a headache? Don't you get the impression there's no purpose in trying to think this all through? Don't you get the feeling it'd be a total waste of time to fathom this? Aren't you sick of fathoming stuff?
Yes Jim, I do get a headache when I think about all the confusion... and there are times I feel, where am I going with this... I can get a whole 2 hrs extra sleep (which I desperately need ) if I don't do all this..But I need a reason to get out of bed... with depression I never wanted to get out... but now I look forward to getting out.. because maybe today I will feel something I did not yesterday...you are at a different level Jim, you can "float", I am learning to float, so till then if I don't hold on to something... I may just stop brushing my teeth ... I mean meditating...
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 5:51:57 PM
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jim wrote:
"All the confusion, all the conflicting info, all the paradoxes....it's just a big haze of tangled static, isn't it? Doesn't it give you a headache? Don't you get the impression there's no purpose in trying to think this all through? Don't you get the feeling it'd be a total waste of time to fathom this? Aren't you sick of fathoming stuff?"
Absolutely. That's why I don't spend much time reading the complicated stuff some people post with all the foreign words for every little detail. I don't really want to spend my energy thinking it through.
But that's why I'm here; because after a lot of searching, AYP is the place that gives us easy techniques that produce a lot without having to think it through. If anyone finds an easier way, let me know! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 6:02:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
What I would like would be to be completely happy and content in the now.
What's making you be something other than completely happy and content in the now is YOU. You are struggling against your default state of happiness and contentment with every action. You tie your own knots and inflict your own blockages. You are pounding your own head with a hammer all day long, and, because you have a clue something's off, you're working hard, figuring it all out, reading up and eagerly on the path where you can reach the lofty, holy, accomplished viewpoint where you hope you might finally understand this cosmic headache which is apparently being inflicted upon you by the world. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 7:07:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
What's making you be something other than completely happy and content in the now is YOU. You are struggling against your default state of happiness ...
Of course, Jim! We could call this state non-enlightenment.
So, we have 2 basic states of consciousness then:
Non-enlightenment: not being perfectly happy, looking for a better "future", being aware of limitations in ourselves and trying to become better.
Enlightenment: being perfectly happy here and now by complete awareness, seeing the "future" as irrelevant, knowing that we are unlimited. |
Edited by - weaver on Feb 23 2006 10:49:44 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 7:25:46 PM
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Sometimes I wonder why I come to these forums and allow myself to go away with my head hurting, which can often upset my peace.
There are a few reasons as I see it:
A sense of community and a meeting of like minds.
Reading thoughts which can bring me closer to the "now", Katrine's poetry is a real example of this as are many of the posts here.
Learning how to intellectulise my experiences so they can be passed on to others.
Every so often though my mind gets so full of garbage that the only way into some sanity is to live mindfully in the now, to stop thinking and simply perform each task like there is no past and no future - which of course there is'nt.
I find, at this time, that fostering the intellectual meaning is helpful. At an earlier time, in my twenties, it led me into suicidal depression for years, in the future (which of course does'nt exist) it may be different.
Perhaps the only true enlightenment is when the whole universe becomes spontaneously enlightened, why limit it to humans. Or, perhaps a friend of mine is correct when she says that "everything is perfect just as it is in each moment right now"
Just give it all up - but don't give up the discipline of practice.!
To my mind intellectualising can be useful but it can certainly become a major addictive trap also -where to draw the line.
One of Katrine's poems:
What if?
What if Now
is all there is?
In which direction
would I move?
With nothing to plan
and no deeds undone,
how would I spend
my time?
What if Now
is all there is?
Am I burdened
or relieved?
A total standstill
A bottomless void
All nows not faced;
not played
What if Now
is all there is?
How rich;
the texture of Being
How lush;
the river of Life
In this;
my first lucid moment;
tears trickle down my face
The instant I taste
the depth of Now,
I know what it’s like
to die
Katrine 2005
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 11:43:12 PM
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weaver wrote:
"Enlightenment: being perfectly happy here and now by complete awareness, seeing the "future" as irrelevant, knowing that we are unlimited."
Wow, glad to hear that because I already have that quite often, and almost always when meditating.
I believe this doesn't preclude taking responsibility for the future however. While enjoying the moment we still brush our teeth and pay the bills and put money in a savings account. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 2:59:53 PM
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Hello all you wonderful people
I have been up in the Norwegian mountains for a week. Snow. Stars. Crisp. Cold. SILENCE. Fireplace, skis, truges, sun, darkness. SPACE.
Family, food, water, knitting, reading, REST. Speed, heat, sweat, oranges. ACTION.
This morning - while everybody else but my dog Trolle is sleeping - I scribbled down the words below on a piece of paper. I came home a couple of hours ago and found this interesting topic here in the AYP forum. Jim - I think you are dead on when you say to let go of enlightenment. The way I see it I can never, ever be enlightened.If I want to be somebody (even an enlightened someone)I am - pr definition - not it. But a lot of effort was needed for me to be so utterly confused that I gave it all up. I had to accept that it was hopeless first. For a long time, that was what meditation was all about (to me): Exposing what is not real. Nobody gets enlightenment. There never was two. All is one.
Sparkle  Namaste
Jim: Your advise concerning the publishing of my poetry (not to "make it a business") was also dead on. I am no good at business. It is not my thing. If the poetry one day reaches others, that is beautiful - but I won't hassle with that. Essential things in my life have a way of taking care of themselves. I will address the issue when it one day arises. I could feel how a dead weight lifted from my chest when I understood that I can be a spendrift with my poetry. It is ok. Writing it is so wonderful. Knowing that people read and are touched by it is .....touching me back. I am twice rewarded!
Here is this mornings poem:
Seeking
I seek solutions
to all of my problems,
when really
the problem is one
I am it
I am not:
The key to the state
of resistance
The instant I seek
I perpetuate she
who herself is the veil
of existence
Katrine 2006
In january of 2005 I wrote this:
Resistance
It hurts
My god - how it hurts to grow
Why do I keep resisting?
Why don't I just let go?
I bleed
How I leak my vital force
My vocal chords in constriction
No wonder I still am hoarse
I continue to hurt
I continue to scream
I inflict anew every wound
I want to be somebody
And still you are here;
a silent permeation,
a soothing touch
A never ending sound
I hear you clearly
Today I can cry
Yesterday never was
Tomorrow is yet to come
But still I forget
the easiest ply:
I am most alive when I'm none
Katrine 2005
May all your Nows be Here |
Edited by - Katrine on Feb 26 2006 3:17:54 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 4:28:47 PM
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Wow, thanks for sharing that. It sounds wonderful. It made me feel good just reading it!
I live next to the mountains here, so I can easily imagine.
Whenever I go up in the mountains the silence touches me. I live in the city so usually I only find that silence on the inside. Then I go to my friends cabin in the mountains less than an hour from here, and I stop and listen- to nothing! I can hear a breeze coming from miles away.
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2006 : 5:51:30 PM
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Cosmic Troll wrote:
"If ecstatic bliss is all I ever get, I'm totally down.
Maybe ecstatic bliss IS enlightenment... who knows"
I assume by 'totally down' you mean 'sign me up?'
I must confess, dear friends, that for myself I've found a fountain of as much bliss as I can tolerate. I'm about to give up all my other toys and exercises and just focus on what I've described elsewhere here, and most recently at "Need suggestions on exercise routine" in the cafe area. Not that I won't continue to meditate now and then, just for the pleasure of 'soaking in the pool,' but at least at the level I'm at right now, I've got everything I need to melt away any time I'm not in a social situation, and I'm working on a subvocal version for that as well.
Beams and blessings - questions happily anwered.
For those wondering about my attempt to set up a meditation group in San Francisco, I've had three inquiries but so far nothing has been set up. I'm still thinking of starting in our very own living room, which I think might hold up to eight. I might mention this elsewhere also, if I can find whatever topic I posted to (smile).
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2006 : 11:52:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rabar
I assume by 'totally down' you mean 'sign me up?'
Yes, you assume correctly . It's urban slang... I learned it from Snoop Dogg |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2006 : 10:12:01 PM
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Hari OM
~~~~~~~
Folks, regarding this string... choose what you believe is right...but its perfectly clear, we are all wired to become enlightened. If you choose not to, think about choosing not to breathe...see how long it lasts.
All of us, with or without choice, is destined to this level. Maybe not this life, next or the next 100. But it will come. Its in the DNA. Its in every molecule.
You do not own the design, but are part of it.
Every desire, is a desire for expanision, for fullness, to feel whole.
Chose as you must , soon-or-later the natural tendency of nature wins... See ya then!
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2006 : 9:02:40 PM
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Just read "Divine Ecstasy - Is That All There Is?" in the new lessons list.
Very interesting, but my first thought was that if someone is not happy with the level of bliss they're achieving, they must not be feeling what I'm feeling. Or else I'm just a cheap 'drunk' on the yogic scale. Does this deserve a topic of its own, or is there one somewhere already? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2006 : 04:12:21 AM
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Hi Frank
You wrote:
quote:
Folks, regarding this string... choose what you believe is right...but its perfectly clear, we are all wired to become enlightened. If you choose not to, think about choosing not to breathe...see how long it lasts.
I see your point. Let me clarify mine:
quote:
The way I see it I can never, ever be enlightened.If I want to be somebody (even an enlightened someone)I am - pr definition - not it.
The thing for me, was to drop the choosing all together. It is not that I choose not to be enlightened. I simply dropped the whole issue. We ARE enlightened beings. We just don't see it. The inner drive to know truth will always be there in me. But it became a more focused drive when I let go of the "becoming enlightened"-thing. Becoming enlightened was always somewhere in the future....I was constantly trying to reach the horizon. The horizon simply moved when I did. When I stopped running and sat down; the horizion all of a sudden was all over the place. It was HERE. Like my breath. Like you say: "think about choosing not to breathe". Exactly. Choosing not to breathe is not constructive (and only possible for a restricted time). But neither is choosing to breathe. Choosing to breathe is like adding butter to fat: Completely reduntant. It happenes by itself. Why struggle with it? Granted; some effort is needed for me to see truth. But so far, by far the most constructive effort has been the effort I invested in learning how to do nothing gracefully. How to simply be.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Why I Don't Want to be Enlightened
