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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 10:14:10 AM
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I have read the following thread and find much resemblance in my practice. Perhaps David and someone could share more? If you have time...
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=472
One month ago, I have a few practice sessions which resemble the Samadhi experience described by Meg and David. Very peaceful and blissful experiences. After those few sessions, I become much more serious about my practices; not willing to miss even "half" of my practice session. I know I should not be expecting, so even though I didn't have those experiences since then, I am still that serious about my practice.
But I find that I am analyzing my practice very much, always making sure that everything goes right. I don't want to think that much, as I know for sure that it will not help me. But the habit is so ingrained in me, that I can't realize I am doing them. What I do during meditation includes:
--making sure that I am relax physically, and no parts of my body is tense/unbalanced/tilted to one side/feeling too much pressure, etc.
--making sure that I am not "doing" when "try" to relax.
--making sure that I don't analyze too much.
--making sure that I don't analyze too much about whether I analyze too much.
--making sure that I am not analyzing more when what I want is not to analyze.
Some other things as well, you will know if you're like me. The fact is that at the beginning, some of these awareness/habits (esp. those about my physical body) works well, if i just do them for a while, at the first 1-2 minutes of meditation. But as I said above, these habits are now so ingrained in me that they just happen automatically. I keep engaging in them without really "trying". Even though they're automatic, they are tensing me. I think that's the major obstacles of my practice. I really can't "let go".
I think David may have similar experiences, as can be seen from the following:
quote:
>> I really don't have any control over it whatsoever; the most effective thing I can do is stay out of the way and completely release any intentions around it.
You're definitely on the right track there. I made lots of mistakes trying to control it in my earlier meditation years. It seems too nice a thing not to control .... The worst thing is that some of these efforts to control it may partly work.... and then negatively condition your meditation in a way that becomes very unhelpful and hard to get rid of.
I am not going for experience. But it's hard to let go and "just sitting there" for 20 mins without noting anything. David or those who think crazily like me, how did you "get through" such struggles? Do you have samadhi experience even while "struggling"? Simply a comment of "letting go" or "take it easy" doesn't seem to work for me---I know but I can't! My "efforts" are all automatic! |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Feb 16 2006 10:30:30 AM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 10:59:18 AM
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Hi Alvin:
As you gradually reprogram youself, you will not only learn easy deep meditation -- you will learn how to live more easily too.
It is worth the letting go (not the effort).
There is no escaping this. No matter what real spiritual path you follow, it will always be about learning to let go. Deep meditation is a way to do it without so much fuss and fanfare. It is a simple procedure. A mechanical habit we develop that leads to not thinking about the doing of it anymore. Then it creeps out into every aspect of our life as inner silence. Very simple.
Interestingly, we gain much greater power of concentration and analysis from this simple process. Very relaxed infinite concentration, and very relaxed infinite analysis. This simple procedure awakens the genius in us.
You are in a clunky stage. It will get better if you stick with the easy procedure. Regard all the analysis coming up as any other thoughts in meditation. You know what to do then, yes? -- Easily back to the mantra. No one is asking you to invest your attention in all that analysis during meditation. If you save it for later, it will make for better meditation and much better analysis when out of meditation.
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 11:01:13 AM
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Hi Alvin - I'm as bewildered as you when it comes to 'letting go'. Any samadhi experiences that I've described here are completely out of the blue; they have no correlation to a deep surrender on my part. When I've tried to recreate the experience, I can access tastes of it, but I can easily sense the struggle on my part to get there, and relinquish it immediately, as it feels contrived and forced. My life experiences have taught me that an internal struggle such as this cannot be overcome by will. Like a ripened fruit that effortlessly falls from the tree, surrender comes when the time is 'ripe', and it's pointless (as you have found out) to try to alter that. My advise is to continue doing exactly what you're doing, and eventually you'll exhaust yourself, give up, and that will be your long-awaited surrender.
BTW, my samadhi experiences are few and far between. Just enough to keep me hooked. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 11:38:21 AM
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| One other thing: Ask yourself, what exactly is it that I'm surrendering? Is it really my over-analytical mind? Or something that's buried so deep that I can't even see it. You may be so fixated on the analysis that you're missing the real obstacle. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 11:51:12 AM
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Hi Alvin,
Unfortunately we sometimes analyse our experiences etc because we are asking ourselves 'Is this it?'. Many say they cannot meditate because they 'can't stop the mind chattering' which as we know is not the point for us to make but for the meditation to do.The more we let go and allow the process to do the work, the easier we simply slip into meditation and as a result the more progress we make.Meditation must be unique in that the less effort we make, the greater the results are.
When you are analysing I suggest you simply return to the mantra as Yogani suggests.When you are in this cleansing mode of meditation this can and will happen very often in meditation. The obtrusive thoughts that drive you mad, and the more you force the mantra and try to clear thos thoughts , the harder it becomes and the longer it takes to get past this point.Sorry to disspoint you but this is a regular part of meditation in the early days as you purify the mind and body.Other thoughts that will arise at times is issues you have in your life and you need to treat this the same way, let them pass through your mind without analysis. It's not easy I know but as Yogani says it will change and the silence will increase.You need a lot of patience for this path and that is why many fail.Just realise that each and every experience is correct for you at that particular time.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 1:28:02 PM
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I know exactly what you are talking about. I had never experienced any samadhi, just felt good meditating. Till 3 days ago, towards the end of meditation I suddenly felt this expansion in me. For the fist time I realized what Yogani means when he says "expansion of silence inside". It was so beautiful. I don't know how long I was there, but when I came out of it I was really groggy and took me some time to get back to normal. I was so happy. This is it, this is what I am going to experience if I can meditate right. Well the next day, I was all excited about meditation... in my heart I knew it was not going to happen again, only reason, I was expecting it. I sat there telling myself "let go...don't expect anything". Yah.. like my mind was going to listen to me. So I am back again for the past 2 days doing the regular meditation... thoughts...thoughts...I Am.. I AM .. thoughts... Don't know if and when I will ever feel that "expansion" again....
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 2:47:06 PM
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Hi Alvin,
I agree with you that the suggestion "just let go" is not sufficient. I also used to analyze a lot but one thing that changed things for me is the idea that "thoughts and mantra can co-exist and that is all right as long as you give preference to mantra". All the questions (am i repeating mantra or analyzing too much, am i analyzing about analyzing too much) come only when we feel only one -either mantra or thoughts can stay at a time. As we understand that's not the case and take it easy, the procedure becomes much easier.
There are 3 most important tips/points i liked from the deep meditation book. These might help -
1. The goal is not to push the thoughts away but to go towards mantra. So whenever you realize you are in thoughts, no matter how complicated they are, dont make an attempt to push them away but instead get started on repeating mantra again
2. Thoughts are a good sign. Between the time we lose mantra and we get lost into thoughts something happens - we just touch our inner essence once and that does all the good. So whenever we repeat mantra and later find ourself in thoughts we have just touched our inner self so theres nothing to panic.
3. Mantra and thoughts can co-exist. There's nothing wrong with this and deep meditation is happening as long as we are actively preferring mantra over thoughts.
The 2nd point especially can change our perspective on thoughts completely.
Genes are a result of karma RATHER THAN A CAUSE OF IT - Yogani |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 8:32:04 PM
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I find it incredibly incredibly...what's the word....liberating to return, as if to safe ground, to just sitting there and saying "I am".
When I get too pushy, when I get too lost in experience, when my mind starts trying to coopt the experience, when I find myself searching for certain results or I start to develop sequences of stuff I feel I need to do/think/visualize to make the meditation really really "good" (like Ed Norton preparing to bowl his bowling ball), I just love to drop it all and just be a guy sitting there saying "I am" real distinctly and really unrefined...almost childlike. Even if I hadn't "lost" the mantra, it's still a fantastic baseline reset, and, invariably, once I do reset, I quickly go deeper far more purely than before. Going up to go down. :)
I did it as a beginner, but it's a thousand times more valuable to me now that I'm more experienced. It sounds so obvious as to be dumb, but I implore intermediate and advanced practitioners to never cast this aside as a strictly beginner's move. In fact, it's one of the breakthroughs of AYP for me. I hope people hold it as close as I do. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 16 2006 8:50:24 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 10:08:06 PM
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| Hi Jim - This brings up a technical question for me which I've been wanting to ask. In lesson 116, Yogani talks about the first mantra enhancement (shree shree I am I am), and says that from now on, this will be the new mantra. Being somewhat of a literalist, I've taken that to mean that one shouldn't revert to the simple 'I am'. What do you think of this? Because sometimes I want to go back to the original, but am not sure if that's recommended. I agree that there's something very nurturing in the simple structure of 'I am'. Yogani - can you clarify this for me? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 10:19:48 PM
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Something that helps me is to try to give as much "depth" to the imaginary sound of IAM as I can.
have you ever seen a movie of those zen meditators, all dressed alike, with their tops bare (men), in a darkened room lit by a lot of candles? They all chant something in unison, in very deep voices, and the room reverberates with the sound. you can feel they are one-pointed in their intention.
I like to imagine that sort of sound. very deep voice, and the vibration of the sound shaking my whole body. The change between letters is very, very slow. This voice never runs out of breath. It helps me to concentrate on the imaginary sound instead of thinking. |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 10:37:58 PM
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Hi Meg:
This generic discussion on switching mantras is from lesson 186 (second enhancement of mantra), and might help with your question:
"If we have shifted to an enhanced mantra too early, we will know it
soon enough. We will feel like we are slogging through mud. We will
be bogging down and not having good results in daily activity. It is
not the end of the world. If we find ourselves in this situation
ongoing, the solution is simple. We just shift back down to our
previous mantra and go with that for a few more months, or however
long it takes us to reach the point when we are ready to shift up.
Self-pacing, remember?
"A false start with a mantra enhancement can happen, but we should
avoid it if we can. The reason is it takes time for a new mantra to
settle in. If we have shifted too early and are trying to settle in
with the new mantra, and then decide to go back to the previous one,
it will take time again to change the pattern of the mantra deep in
the mind. For this reason we do not change mantras often, up or down.
We want to be going deep with our mantra in one place. These
enhancements are for facilitating that process. Beyond these basic
shifts we do not switch our mantra around. Neither do we try and use
multiple mantras, not with the approach in these lessons. We want to
cultivate the ability to go deep in every sitting. To do this, we
will be best served by using a single vehicle, our mantra."
The guru is in you.
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2006 : 11:16:55 PM
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quote:
I like to imagine that sort of sound. very deep voice, and the vibration of the sound shaking my whole body. The change between letters is very, very slow. This voice never runs out of breath. It helps me to concentrate on the imaginary sound instead of thinking.
Etherfish,
If you do this then you are imposing a structure on the mantra instead of letting it modify itself as it likes, becoming fuzzy or clear, fast or slow, having any tone, or appearing to be located anywhere. It will be more difficult then for the mantra to lead the way to more subtle levels and inner silence. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:23:29 AM
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| So how do you form it without defining the form? how can I imagine without using imagination? |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 17 2006 12:26:48 AM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:50:30 AM
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Hi Etherfish,
I will just quote Yogani from these forum threads (my underlining):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=639
"A rhythm with the mantra can be there, but it will change according to whatever is going on in our nervous system. Also, it can be quite clear in pronunciation or very fuzzy and indistinct, or practically nothing at all. We just easily go with it at whatever level it is, not forcing it to go one way or the other. We do not decide the mantra's journey with any exterior bias. If we follow the procedure, the mantra will take us much deeper than any particular enforced rhythm, visualization or following the breath can."
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=678
"There is no set rhythm for repetition. Whatever is comfortable, and it can change according to purification going on. No set location for the mantra either. It can locate or not for the same reason. We do not favor any particular rhythm or location. If one happens, fine, but we do not hang on to it. We don't hang on to anything, not even the mantra at any particular level. We let the attention slide ever deeper into inner silence with the ever disappearing mantra." |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 01:47:32 AM
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Thanks Weaver,
That's a very good direction for me. I'm sort of a literalist, so I figured very slow is not a rhythm, and the whole body is not a location.
So being this practical and literal makes it very hard for me to understand this concept. I think if I have the intention to understand it and keep trying i'll eventually get it.
I can stop my thoughts, or do the mantra without thinking, but this seems to be something else.
Thanks,
Etherfish |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 02:20:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
So how do you form it without defining the form? how can I imagine without using imagination?
Easy answer. You don't do it at all. Stop trying to do anything. Let it be done for you (no...THROUGH you). Surrender to that which does that doing. All the way.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 08:54:32 AM
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Since I have the ability to stop my thoughts, when I stop trying to do anything, I get complete silence. This is quite nice, but no mantra. Maybe i can put the one thought of the mantra in my head, but when I turn off thoughts I tend to keep losing anything I put there.
Maybe I can think of ayam as an aspect of God I am summoning, and sort of waiting for a response? like you said in another thread, listening for it (I know Yogani said not to do this). Maybe a sort of coaxing of a benevolent entity or aspect of myself?
Let it be done THROUGH me is a good direction i can understand, and surrendering, although I kinda need something to surrender to. I can surrender to the dark silence if it would help, but I don't know if that's it. Don't know what I'm surrendering to as there is nothing there.
Thanks for the help, you guys; My mind works a little different than most people and often my
questions sound ridiculous or anal or mocking, but i'm serious about them. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 09:08:10 AM
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Hello Ether,
I have the ability to stop my thoughts too. You generally shouldn't use it as part of mantra yoga. You can actually use it as a meditation in itself though.
You'll observe that an act of will is involved in stopping your thoughts. There is a specific mental posture behind that act of will. While you keep it, some of the things of mantra yoga won't happen.
Mantra yoga in a sense allows the will to rest and dissolve. That is a huge part of its power.
-D |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 09:19:02 AM
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Wow, that's very useful. So I have been doing part of it right.
I have to have a little will to continue the mantra, but maybe I can make it as small as possible.
It's nice to hear from someone who stops their thoughts and can give me that viewpoint. I worked on that for so many years before I achieved it, and mostly people just tell me it's impossible, that I'm fooling myself. Coming from a childhood of low self esteem, that doesn't help. I've won that battle, but the enemy still waits for me to leave the door unlocked!
i've always felt shutting off thoughts is a useful tool, but I don't know when to use it, so I appreciate the input. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 17 2006 11:02:34 AM |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 10:25:59 AM
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Hello Ether
I came to AYP from the Franz Bardon system which requires emptiness of mind as a prerequisite to anything and it was very difficult to change my mind set so I know where you are.
Forget all about emptiness of mind and just think the mantra, it will refine on its own. The the result is pure bliss consciousness not emptiness of mind. It requires no act of will at all.
The main thing to remember is not to expect anything Just think the mantra it will all come together in the end. 
RICHARD |
Edited by - Richard on Feb 17 2006 10:27:32 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:08:31 AM
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Well I think that requires a little will, but that's just semantics.
So i'm not too far off- I've been just thinking the mantra, all I have to do differently is not add any definition or refinements to it. Just the sound itself.
After all, it has been working wonderfully, but I want to get all I can from it. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:29:16 AM
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I find that when I allow my heart to relax/open, I feel outpouring love. When i allow my solar plexus to relax/open, I feel a fetal connection to the universe...no more self-contained feeling. When I allow my throat to relax/open, I can't tell who's doing the inhaling/exhaling...it just feels very zero sum. And when I allow my ajna to relax/open, the local narration stops, and thoughts just "are", without their in any way identifying as "me". David and others, is that what you're talking about?
(BTW, I say "allow" rather than "make" because the natural state is relaxed and open, but we subconsciously choose to grip and close for some weird reason all our lives. So I'm not "doing" something - there's no control on my part. It's actually a cessation of doing something via a mindset of simply allowing myself to be opened.) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2006 11:31:08 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:50:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
I find that when I allow my heart to relax/open, I feel outpouring love.
(BTW, I say "allow" rather than "make" because the natural state is relaxed and open, but we subconsciously choose to grip and close for some weird reason all our lives. So I'm not "doing" something - there's no control on my part. It's actually a cessation of doing something via a mindset of simply allowing myself to be opened.)
Doesn't this still take a dollop of intention? By 'allowing' you're surrendering to what is, but the focus is there, however briefly. B'c I too have a much more open and **SUCCESSFUL**<------- (! that should get a reaction!) meditation when I place my attention on my heart chakra, but I understand by now that ANY act of will during meditation is anathema, and so I dutifully return to the mantra. It's very tempting, tho, to stay with the heart opening, as it feels so good. But if I choose to think of it as a surrender rather than an intention, I may allow it to continue. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 11:50:18 AM
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quote:
thoughts just "are", without their in any way identifying as "me"
Hi Jim,
I think this is what Yogani refers to as "the witness". |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 12:17:57 PM
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jim wrote:
>"when I allow my ajna to relax/open, the local narration stops, and thoughts just "are", without their in any way identifying as "me". David and others, is that what you're talking about? "
It's not what I meant by stopping my thoughts, but it is probably just as valuable, if not more.
To stop my thoughts I sort of connect my will with nothingness.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 4:05:20 PM
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Etherfish (great handle, btw): Why would I want to stop them? Isn't the whole point to let the world - including your mind - just be? Stopping thoughts seems kind of cause/effect, though maybe I'll change my mind on this eventually.
Meg:
quote:
I too have a much more open and **SUCCESSFUL**<------- (! that should get a reaction!) meditation when I place my attention on my heart chakra, but I understand by now that ANY act of will during meditation is anathema
I know what you're saying, but I think you may be overjudging. Anyway, the way past this is to stop having it be you, period. Let God course through (and express through) your meat, and just stay the hell out of the entire thing. Heart, shmart. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 17 2006 4:06:03 PM |
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How to be easy/let go in meditation
