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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 6:07:52 PM
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Ether said:
Wow, that's very useful.
I'm glad I can say something useful every now and then. 
Jim asked:
David and others, is that what you're talking about?
No, my 'stopping my thoughts' is a deliberate closure thing. It's as if I can 'close off' my thoughts. Like squeezing a hosepipe. It's a kind of mental muscle. It is not a 'hard' squeeze though, but rather a subtle skillful one.
I found it a good exercise, a good drill. It can also help me rest, which sounds counterintuitive, but is true.
It's limited as a meditation though, for the reasons I mentioned. Because the will stays there. The will does not relax and dissolve. It cannot match mantra yoga in that way. A part of me has to stay there and keep the hosepipe squeezed lightly.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 17 2006 6:11:41 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2006 : 6:19:52 PM
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| great answer. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 02:00:22 AM
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jim wrote:
"Why would I want to stop them? Isn't the whole point to let the world - including your mind - just be? Stopping thoughts seems kind of cause/effect, though maybe I'll change my mind on this eventually."
You probably wouldn't want to. Thoughts don't belong to us anyway. They come from outside us, and we just repeat them. It was something I learned a long time ago when I was into Castaneda books. It's very hard to learn, and takes a long time. It does have a profound effect once you learn it though, at least it did for me. It made me question my whole identity and existence and all reasoning I had ever done, my perception of the world, the structure of time, etc.
I don't know about other people, but for me it enhances psychic ability. Sometimes I get clairvoyant visions, but if I start thinking they disappear instantly. So I've learned to stop thinking if I'm getting a vision. i love watching them. Yesterday I had a vision of wolves interacting in the sub- zero snow. It was probably happening in the mountains above where I live. The visions are so high definition they captivate my attention. Sometimes they answer prayers, but mostly I have no idea what or where they are. has anyone seen a whole series of circles full of light that start at your head and travel away getting smaller, and some have a vision in them?
OK, back to the mantra. . . |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 12:24:46 PM
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Ok I thought of a concept that may work for me. If I just think "i am interested in following the AYAM sound". That way it doesn't have definition or location.
The way my mind works, I need something like a concept to follow.
What do you think?
BTW stopping my thoughts is slightly different for me. I don't feel like I'm forcing anything to stop, but my will is engaged in making my attention stay on something it's not used to; nothingness.
So if there is a vision, since thinking makes them stop, I put my will on nothingness, then turn my perception to the vision. I think it's the same as watching without judging or defining. Your will and attention don't need to be on the same thing at the same time. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 18 2006 12:33:52 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 1:08:33 PM
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Etherfish,
Have you tested to just do something, only saying the mantra mentally, and not trying to do anything else, not caring about anything else that may or may not happen in the mind, including thoughts and concepts... just coming back to the mantra if you realise you are not saying the mantra? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 2:35:58 PM
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Yeah but that leads to a rhythm and location because of robotic repeating. told you my mind is a little different! I was looking for a way to just say it while removing that rhythm & location thing.
But I will try that again also, in case i'm missing something.
Thanks |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 3:41:11 PM
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Etherfish,
In this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=678
I addressed this to Yogani:
"if I only do the prescribed active part, I have a tendency go into a concentration mode on the mantra where it rings continuously and I get absorbed into it, and no thoughts will come."
Could this be similar to what you label robotic repeating?
And Yogani answered:
"It is okay to be absorbed like that. It is not concentration. It is samadhi, which is absorption in inner silence."
Just wanted to share this. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 4:34:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yeah but that leads to a rhythm and location because of robotic repeating. told you my mind is a little different! I was looking for a way to just say it while removing that rhythm & location thing.
I have a similar problem with rhythm; the mantra gets entangled with the rhythm of the breath and then I have a very difficult time separating the two. I sense that it's not such a good thing; that the mantra needs to be free from the breath (and everything else) in order to do its thing.
One thing I've been experimenting with, and with some success, is moving the mantra outside my body. I've noticed recently that, though silent, the mantra is still situated gutturally. I even notice the muscles at the back of my throat slightly contracting to form the mantra. By removing the mantra from my throat and imagining it as a sound external to my body, it has helped to bring home the idea that I'm not responsible for anything but hearing it. And now to sound really woo-woo, the relocated mantra has spontaneously taken on the feel of an aura, as if it's a sound that completely surrounds me, like an audible halo. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 6:33:07 PM
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Hi Meg,
My sense is that the correct procedure of deep meditation is to not arrange it this way, to rather let the breath go with the mantra if it wants to, but not to worry about it, to just go back to the mantra as soon as you become aware of if they are synchronized or not. I think over time you would become less aware of the breath altogether then. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 6:53:06 PM
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Dear weaver,
yes, don't worry if the mantra and breath are not syncronised.My guru only breaths 4 times a minute in deep meditation and it would be difficult to chant the mantra at this pace if one was conscious enough to do so.If the breath moves away from the mantra it does not matter , the mantra is the important part. Once I teach my students to breathe correctly I have them take their attention to the mantra.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 7:05:25 PM
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Hi riptiz,
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I know that we don't try to synchronize the mantra and the breath, but I was writing Meg that if they get synchronized, to not worry about that either. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 7:28:32 PM
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Maybe I didn't express myself clearly: I'm trying to separate mantra from breath, so that the two are independent of each other. And having a difficult time with it. I believe one of the early ayp lessons indicates that it's not preferred to have them synchronized. My personal experience is that it's a nuisance. I know that it's impossible to completely de-synchronize breath and mantra, but mine tend to go on and on, once they find each other.
I like the mantra being outside my body - please don't anyone tell me that I have to stop. :) |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 7:53:10 PM
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Hi Meg
I think you said that you have the little deep meditation book.
If you do turn to page 34 and you will see Yogani's words on the breath synchronizing with the mantra he tells it much better than I or anyone else can for that matter.
Read its all there
RICHARD |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2006 : 8:35:40 PM
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Thank you Richard for pointing this out.
For Meg and anyone else reading this discussion, in case you don't have "Deep Meditation", it says on page 34:
"We do not make an effort to slow the breath while we are meditating. Neither do we deliberately synchronize the mantra with the breath. If it happens inadvertently, it is okay, but we do not favor it. We just leave the breath to do naturally what it will in deep meditation. Deep meditation is just a simple procedure of easily favoring the mantra, no matter what else may come to our attention - breath, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on." |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 01:48:52 AM
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hi Etherfish, can you give more information/references on the "thought-stopping" techniques you talked about? Will it make me less capable of intelligentual thinking?
Also, what do you mean, precisely, by stopping your thoughts? When I am not too excited, I can somehow stop it too. But I don't think I've stop all the thoughts. Otherwise how do I (or you) know that you're "stopping thoughts"? If you know you're thinking about nothingness, then you are at least aware of that fact. So do you mean you stop the flow of thoughts, while still being aware of your SELF/nothingness?
I've just overcome the problem of syncronising breath and mantra. Sometimes they're still syncronised. But I can seperate them by focusing on the mantra ONLY, may be giving it an initial rhythm different from that of the breath. After that initial seperation, though, they are separated not because of my efforts, but because I've forgotten about my breath altogether! I think that's the way? |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 05:27:58 AM
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Hello there
You seem to make everything so difficult. the mind has a nasty knack of doing that (if anythings this good it should be difficult)In reality it is all so simple Just follow the instructions in the main lessons on the mantra and even better read the little book Deep meditation , if you have it,
Just think the mantra easily with no strain and come back to it again easily when your mind wanders off.
Don't worry about your thoughts in day to day life as more inner silence rises within you that will sort itself out.
There is really nothing else you have to do.
RICHARD |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 11:00:00 AM
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Alvin wrote:
"hi Etherfish, can you give more information/references on the "thought-stopping" techniques you talked about? Will it make me less capable of intelligentual thinking? "
No it actually enhances intellectual thinking. It took me years of effort. All I did was everyday try to put my consciousness on "nothingness". God is sort of an energetic nothingness. I favored that over thoughts. The thoughts would always be continuing on their own because that's what the mind does, but i would always turn away from that chatter and favor the nothingness. i worked on it when I wasn't meditating by favoring all sensory input over the thoughts. Just being "in the moment" doesn't require thinking. I found I could do that while driving or anything. Thoughts don't really help you drive a car! Sensory input does. So I found I was MORE aware of things around me, not less. There are a couple techniques, but they kinda waste a lot of time when we have AYP meditation instead.
Then thoughts started to fade away, and eventually stop. Don't worry, they start up like an avalanche whenever you want them. We've practiced it too long to ever lose them. But if you get to the point where you can stop them at will, the world's a more beautiful place. Every time
I re-start thinking there is a sadness that comes with it, longing for the feeling I get from stopping them.
I'm only telling you this because you asked, and that's the path I followed. But having said that, none of that is necessary! Yogani's meditation is SO much easier and more effective.
Alvin wrote:
"Also, what do you mean, precisely, by stopping your thoughts? When I am not too excited, I can somehow stop it too. But I don't think I've stop all the thoughts. Otherwise how do I (or you) know that you're "stopping thoughts"? If you know you're thinking about nothingness, then you are at least aware of that fact. So do you mean you stop the flow of thoughts, while still being aware of your SELF/nothingness?"
Yes, stopping the flow while being aware of nothingness. Not thinking about nothingness, just being aware of it. Awareness and thinking are two separate things. Also, thoughts come from outside us, we just connect with them and choose them. They will always be going on outside us because there is some kind of place out there where all thoughts exist. We just pick some of them like picking fruit, and think they are ours. That doesn't take anything away from the value of what we do with them however.
It is the actions we take in this world that determine who we are. Whether we are moving toward God or away, and the love we radiate that helps pull other people with us is what counts.
Azaz,
Yes that's what I do, and it's quite easy and very effective. I'm just working on removing the rhythm and location to enhance its effectiveness. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 19 2006 11:02:06 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 11:13:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by azaz932001
Hello there
You seem to make everything so difficult.
Harsh, dude. For some of us this is really difficult stuff, and we're trying to get some help. But I'll have you know that it took me but one try when I learned to tie my shoelace. :)
Thanks for the 'energetic nothingness' suggestion, Ether. That was helpful. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 11:54:55 AM
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Sorry if I sounded harsh it wasn't meant that way.
I came to AYP from Hermetics thats all brow creasing concentration and its very hard to break the habit. I took me at least six months to realise how simple Deep meditation is, you just have to relax and think the mantra and thats it.
I wouldn't want anyone to think I am being harsh I'm not, I'm just concerned. I love you all 
RICHARD |
Edited by - Richard on Feb 19 2006 11:56:23 AM |
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How to be easy/let go in meditation
