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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 04 2010 : 9:52:09 PM
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"It is the nature of the mind to roam about. All you can do is to shift the focus of consciousness beyond the mind."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj, quoted in I AM THAT |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2010 : 11:21:10 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
How are you? By the way, I really enjoyed that Ken Wilber youtube video you pointed out in another post. It is one of the best descriptions of neti neti that I have seen. But right at the end, it kind of shocked me to hear Ken suggest to bring the white light down on in the in-breath and then on the out-breath, release it outwards into infinity. Now I'm wondering about the ups and down of spinal breathing techniques and whether or not they were created based on the supposition that one has to mix prana with apana in order to awaken the kundalini, and this mixing is achieved by following a sequence which is opposite the natural breathing flow.. Is it possible that they had no idea to bring the white light downwards on the in-breath? I wonder where Ken got that technique from. Do you know? Most all kriya spinal breathing techniques go up on the in-breath and back down on the out-breath..
However, that is not what I'm writing about tonight. :)
I just thought that I'd mention this: I've read Nisargadatta's "I AM THAT" twice and have spent a lot of time considering what he has said. I've considered the fact that he often tailors what he says based on the level and capacity of the listener. Nisargadatta does say many contradictory things so maybe it is dangerous to take them out of context.
What bothered me about that quote you pointed out is that it is implying that there is no way to control the roaming mind. He is saying that you have to shift the focus of consciousness beyond the mind. Well, I'm just not that ripe yet I guess. I have tried meditations of just focusing on the sense of "I AM" but after a few days of doing that I lost confidence in the technique and wondered if I was just wasting my time. There aren't many teachings that use that technique and it would be better if I was more confident that that technique actually did work.
In AYP, (now that I understand this aspect of deep meditation), the technique is to use the mantra to effortlessly dissolve the mind into deep silence. So this would seem to agree with the Nisargadatta quote you've posted. However, it is using a mantra as an aid to get there. AYP does not say, "Just jump into deep silence and remain there".
There are many ways to still the mind and they seem to work. It's just that they take great effort and training. But for those who are not ripe enough and not ready to fall off the tree, they are perhaps an alternate solution from which one can build a ladder to experience samadhi or inner silence. I'm talking about the 'roll up your sleeves and get down to business' practice of concentrative training, such as shamatha or even Guru Deva's "Five Steps to Enlightenment".
Guru Deva (the teachings of classic Vedanta) teaches that the mind can be methodically trained and conquered.
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-13.html
quote:
Now we come to the real study, and this applies right to you and to you personally: the five steps on the path of enlightenment. What are they? Attention, concentration, meditation, contemplation and Self Realization. Those are the five steps that awareness has to flow through, gaining strength each time, on the path to enlightenment. When we first start, awareness is flowing through many areas of the mind. And if it is a mature awareness, we will say it's a great big ball of light, flowing through the mind. And if it's not a mature awareness, it's like a little ping-pong ball, bouncing around. The little ping-pong ball awareness is not going to walk the path of enlightenment, so to speak. It's going to bobble around in the instinctive mind, incarnation after incarnation, until it grows to a great big ball, like a great big beach ball. Then finally it will have enough experiences flowing through the mind to turn in on itself. When this happens, certain faculties come into being. One of them is willpower. And we learn to hold attention. We learn to hold awareness at attention. Awareness: attention!
So if I understand Nisargadatta's quote correctly, Nisargadatta is saying that the mind is a little ping pong ball and you can't do anything with it except to look beyond it. Guru Deva, on the other hand is saying that we can methodically learn how to control attention, turn it into concentration, and continue on gradually arriving upon Self Realization. I guess my main objection is this: If a person does not have the ability to concentrate, has no willpower, has not developed or trained himself to sustain attention or awareness consecutively on one object, how will he/she be able to sustain a 'shift of consciousness beyond the mind' as Nisargadatta suggests?
Further, I'm finding that intense concentrative meditation practices are hard to sustain on a continual basis, twice a day, day in, day out. I'm not saying that one technique is better than any other; each tecnique has advantages and disadvantages. Lately I find myself gravitating towards the AYP deep silence meditation because it is so easy to do (once you realize that you have to keep it really simple).
There, I've said what I was going to say. Now I feel better..
:)
TI
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Shivoham
India
107 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2010 : 12:20:42 PM
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Datta and Grudeva are both right ans saying almost same thing.
After you have attained the ability to concentrate the mind through methods, There must be something to concentrate upon.In methods it will be on some form or on some chakra.But after you open your eyes and walk in this world with your senses open, to what will your mind concentrate? It will become a pingpong ball again. Here is where Nisargadatta's roll come.
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nisargajay
United Kingdom
26 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2010 : 2:09:10 PM
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over the last couple of days its suddenly become so clear what this iamness is, the awareness whatching awareness link on another page helped me to understand what it was and now when i read maharajs teachings they make even more sense than they did before and also makes sense of others to taught the same teachings.
the process of understanding how to watch that awareness is extremely simple and the fact it is so simple its easily missed maharaj said just be theres nothing else to be done.
putting this into practice and staying with it for long periods of time is what i plan to do now.
maharaj answered questions to people of different levels and different expectations hence the answers and the advice varied alot, but really his teachings are simple once grasped once it clicks it really makes sense.
nisargajay |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2010 : 11:37:52 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman,
How are you? By the way, I really enjoyed that Ken Wilber youtube video you pointed out in another post. It is one of the best descriptions of neti neti that I have seen.
I'm doing great, TI; how are you?
I'm glad you enjoyed the video; synchronistically, what Ken says in that video is the key to getting the value out of the quote from Nisargadatta we're discussing.
VIDEO: Ken Wilber on Subject, Object & Self
quote:
But right at the end, it kind of shocked me to hear Ken suggest to bring the white light down on in the in-breath and then on the out-breath, release it outwards into infinity.
I thought we were obviously talking about the same video .... but now I'm not so sure; I've listened to that one (linked above) twice now ... and didn't hear the part at the end you mentioned.
Can you please provide a link to the video you mean?
quote:
Now I'm wondering about the ups and down of spinal breathing techniques and whether or not they were created based on the supposition that one has to mix prana with apana in order to awaken the kundalini, and this mixing is achieved by following a sequence which is opposite the natural breathing flow.
Well, yes ... Yogananda and the Bhagavad Gita ... and quite a few other yogic sources mention this (the "in-breath meeting the out-breath", or however that goes).
This isn't only to awaken kundalini, though ... there are quite a few effects over time, as the AYP Lessons discuss in great detail.
quote:
Is it possible that they had no idea to bring the white light downwards on the in-breath? I wonder where Ken got that technique from. Do you know? Most all kriya spinal breathing techniques go up on the in-breath and back down on the out-breath..
The White Light, and/or simply bringing awareness down from above crown is an advanced technique in certain traditions, and less-advanced in others (Christian Kabbalah / Sophian Gnosticism, for one).
Tau Malachi gives a good overview here.
From that article:
"The nature of the Initiation transcends the external forms that may be used to facilitate it, and may occur apart from anything external. In essence, the True Initiation, represented by “baptism,” from a Gnostic perspective, is the reception of the Light from above and the awakening of the Serpent Power (called “Kundalini” in the East). Thus, in the Holy Gospel we hear of a threefold baptism, of water, fire and Spirit; water represents the reception of the Light from above, fire represents the activation of the Serpent Power (“Fire Snake”), and the Spirit represents the potential state of Divine Illumination (Divine Gnosis) that may transpire when the Serpent Power is integrated, uplifted and redeemed (brought into repose or cessation).
At the outset of the Gnostic Path we seek to consciously open ourselves to the Mother’s Force – the Anointed and Holy Spirit; specifically, we wish to open ourselves to the Light from above, and to welcome and invite the Light-presence (Christ) and Light-power (Holy Spirit) into us and into our lives. We do nothing to force an awaking of the Serpent Power, but rather we learn to wait upon the Spirit of Messiah, and let Divine Grace awaken, uplift and redeem the Serpent Power in due season. Typically speaking, to the extent we open and become sensitive to the Light-presence, and surrender to the Light-presence, the Light-power moves with, in and through us, and the Serpent Power is awakened."
And so, it's not that yoga traditions don't know about it; it's more that the primary yogic paths which have come down to us have focused on root up, rather than crown-down.
Both approaches obviously have their benefits and challenges .... and they both can (obviously) be ultimately effective (per enlightened people from the applicable traditions).
I do know Ken Wilber has spent a lot of time talking/working with leaders in the Christian Contemplative traditions ... Father Thomas Keating, Brother Wayne Teasdale, etc. ... and I'd guess he probably learned of this (bringing Light down) from them (but that is just a guess).
quote:
However, that is not what I'm writing about tonight. :)
Oh. Okay.
quote:
I just thought that I'd mention this: I've read Nisargadatta's "I AM THAT" twice and have spent a lot of time considering what he has said. I've considered the fact that he often tailors what he says based on the level and capacity of the listener. Nisargadatta does say many contradictory things so maybe it is dangerous to take them out of context.
Well, I'm not sure dangerous is the right word ..... probably more like "potentially frustrating" ..... in the same way that non-relational self-inquiry is frustrating; it's like trying to put a brick into a brick ..... no fun a-tall!
quote:
What bothered me about that quote you pointed out is that it is implying that there is no way to control the roaming mind.
Well, I'd say that's true (that there's no way to control the roaming mind) .... but only utterly, completely true.
quote:
He is saying that you have to shift the focus of consciousness beyond the mind. Well, I'm just not that ripe yet I guess.
It's not a ripeness thing.
It's a direction thing.
That's why this quote is so important.
Of Knower, Knowing and Known ..... we run around trying to find and realize the Knower by figuring out Knowing and Known.
It doesn't work that way.
It can't work that way.
It's like taking the temperature of your clothes to see how healthy you are ..... while you're not wearing them.
Watch-Listen to the Ken Wilber video (linked above) again (please ) .. Ken lays it ALL out in that video.
His whole point is Nisargadatta's whole point ....... we're actually looking for the Knower with the Knower; we just don't know it, and so, we tend to waste an incredible amount of time and energy focused on form (physical, subtle; activities, visions, energies; you name it).
"Beyond the mind" just means neti-neting  ourselves enough, by any means necessary ..... to drop into the freedom of the pure, free awareness that's always the true experiencer of all of this; always.
There is nothing else.
The awareness you're reading these very words with right now is the "beyond the mind" we're talking about.
Mind is a sense and not a self.
It's like we're discussing eyes, and the stuff eyes see, in order to find the seer; again: it doesn't work that way ........ the seer is the one doing the looking ..... behind, before .... "meta" to the eyes/sense of sight/objects seen.
Open back *toward* you ... open up the awareness .... the experiencer .... it's the Space ...... the very space that everything happens in.
Self
Space
Awareness
......... are SYNONYMS.
They are the SAME.
You/We/All are not the form ... not ANY Form .... we're the space .... and consciously being the space of awareness .... we come to see that all form is ultimately made of awareness, too .... there IS nothing else.
THAT's beyond the mind.
And, well .... Tattvam Asi ........ YOU ARE THAT.
quote:
I have tried meditations of just focusing on the sense of "I AM" but after a few days of doing that I lost confidence in the technique and wondered if I was just wasting my time. There aren't many teachings that use that technique and it would be better if I was more confident that that technique actually did work.
Well, yeah; I get that ... it was like that for me, too, at first.
Two things changed it for me.
1. I went back to inquiry after developing enough inner silence to be relationally inquiring from the witness state (as opposed to "thought-form to thought-form" which IS an exercise in frustration, for sure), as AYP teaches (relational self-inquiry). Whole different ballgame, then, for me.
2. I noticed how many truly enlightened people (Nisargadatta, Ramana, Ed Muzika, etc.) recommended, used, and clearly benefited from this techniques (inquiry; noticing the sense of I AM, and letting it dissolve into open awareness, the One prior to all sense of I AM, the One that's ever the actual ground of all experiencing now).
quote:
In AYP, (now that I understand this aspect of deep meditation), the technique is to use the mantra to effortlessly dissolve the mind into deep silence. So this would seem to agree with the Nisargadatta quote you've posted. However, it is using a mantra as an aid to get there. AYP does not say, "Just jump into deep silence and remain there".
Well, exactly.
AYP Deep Meditation is one of the ways; one of the means, one of the techniques .... to bring about what Nisargadatta suggests.
He (Nisargadatta) came from an inquiry-focused path; AYP started as a yogic/kriya discipline (pranayama, mantra meditation, etc.), but has evolved to include inquiry.
And so, where AYP began with a powerful, balanced blend that meditation only paths (like TM), and kriya-only paths (like kriya yoga) couldn't offer, AYP now offers a third, more advanced component ... inquiry.
However .... ALL these things are supports and techniques ..... to do what Nisargadatta is referring to in that quote, and that Ken Wilber is talking about in the video.
quote:
There are many ways to still the mind and they seem to work. It's just that they take great effort and training. But for those who are not ripe enough and not ready to fall off the tree, they are perhaps an alternate solution from which one can build a ladder to experience samadhi or inner silence.
Well, yes.
I know you're not a big Adyashanti fan, but the following quote is from one of his teachers (Kwong Roshi) ... Adya was going through the same battle with the mind we all go through, many years ago .... and his teacher said:
"If you wait for the mind to stop .... you'll wait forever."
Nisargadatta is just making that same point, in a different way.
Nisargadatta's statement is like a road sign ... "Liberation --- <----THIS WAY".
And so .... the Nisargadatta quote, and the Ken Wilber video are primarily about direction (back toward yourself; toward the experiencer).
What we're talking about, ultimately, is the Awareness we are .... not anything happening in it.
quote:
I'm talking about the 'roll up your sleeves and get down to business' practice of concentrative training, such as shamatha or even Guru Deva's "Five Steps to Enlightenment".
Guru Deva (the teachings of classic Vedanta) teaches that the mind can be methodically trained and conquered.
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-13.html
quote:
[from Gurudev, Himalayan Academy]
..... And we learn to hold attention. We learn to hold awareness at attention. Awareness: attention!
quote:
So if I understand Nisargadatta's quote correctly, Nisargadatta is saying that the mind is a little ping pong ball and you can't do anything with it except to look beyond it.
Well, ultimately, that's true .... because the "beyond" is also "before"; the beyond is the lookER.
Enlightenment is the complete expansion of the experiencer back into original wholeness, original awareness, thus knowing yourself as unbound awareness now. That's it.
Everything else is a means and a method related to it.
Many methods work; some work best for some of us, some work better for other of us; I don't see Nisargadatta's or Gurudev's or AYP's as mutually exclusive or contradictory; they're all potentially useful, depending on how intuition/inner guru guides us.
My main intuition in posting the Nisargadatta quote was as yet another reminder, that as Yogani has said repeatedly .... if he were to write a scripture, it would contain one word:
Within.
But he means (I'm essentially 100% sure ) REALLY within; (ultimately) all the way within .... prior to mind ..... mind is a function (and a conceptual one at that - "mind doesn't exist until you think about it", as Francis Lucille says) ..... what performs the functions of mind?
Awareness.
The awareness reading these words; the awareness you are; that we each and all always ever actually are, now.
Tattvam Asi.
Many of us waste years in sadhana looking for something ..... without realizing the realizer .... without realizing that what we're looking for is what's actually doing the looking.
Realizing this can save a LOT of time, effort and confusion ..... and our time, practices, effort, attention and so on ... all these wonderful tools and structures that creation in form makes possible ..... can then be oriented properly and efficiently ... and we can enjoy being all the way home that much sooner.
Hence my posting of the Nisargadatta quote.
"When thine eye is single, thy whole body shall be filled with light."
~Jesus Christ
quote:
Further, I'm finding that intense concentrative meditation practices are hard to sustain on a continual basis, twice a day, day in, day out. I'm not saying that one technique is better than any other; each tecnique has advantages and disadvantages. Lately I find myself gravitating towards the AYP deep silence meditation because it is so easy to do (once you realize that you have to keep it really simple).
You're discovering the secret of the most powerful techniques ........ the most powerful techniques are the ones that work for us, any of us, at any given time.
"Good things are happening", as Yogani says.
quote:
There, I've said what I was going to say. Now I feel better..
:)
TI
Awesome ... always a good thing when that happens!!
I hope my comments are useful; thanks very much for yours ... it felt right to discuss this, and post some of the related info ... the video, the link to Tau Malachi's article, etc. ... as I said recently in sharing credit with you for the "awareness watching awareness" link (because I learned of it via the Nisargadatta Gita, which I learned of through Ed Muzika's dialog with Rajiv, which I was motivated to read because of your recommendation --- thanks again! ) .... we never know what info is going to help whom, when ... and so, it's always good to discuss and post stuff as "inspiration guides".
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 06 2010 12:01:34 AM |
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Shivoham
India
107 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2010 : 02:44:23 AM
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Such a huge posts you make kiratman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2010 : 9:00:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shivoham
Such a huge posts you make kiratman
Yes.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 05:18:02 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
What bothered me about that quote you pointed out is that it is implying that there is no way to control the roaming mind. He is saying that you have to shift the focus of consciousness beyond the mind. Well, I'm just not that ripe yet I guess. I have tried meditations of just focusing on the sense of "I AM" but after a few days of doing that I lost confidence in the technique and wondered if I was just wasting my time. There aren't many teachings that use that technique and it would be better if I was more confident that that technique actually did work.
I don't know if you have read it, but Yogani's book on Self-Inquiry discusses the process by which the sense of "I AM" or the witness self is cultivated and deepened in spiritual practice. In the book Yogani describes how meditation is used to cultivate enough silence to be present with the witness, and then he goes on to describe the way in which the witness changes as the enlightenment process unfolds.
Christi
p.s. The white light meditation was discussed briefly here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=5609#50454
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Edited by - Christi on Jun 07 2010 05:19:24 AM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 12:44:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
What bothered me about that quote you pointed out is that it is implying that there is no way to control the roaming mind. He is saying that you have to shift the focus of consciousness beyond the mind. Well, I'm just not that ripe yet I guess. I have tried meditations of just focusing on the sense of "I AM" but after a few days of doing that I lost confidence in the technique and wondered if I was just wasting my time. There aren't many teachings that use that technique and it would be better if I was more confident that that technique actually did work.
Nisargadatta's pointers are often sparse in words, which I find powerful because of their directness of pointing. By his economy of words, and maybe because translation doesn't always offer fullness of meaning, we may find ourselves still pondering.
To me, Nisargadatta is saying in the phrase, that consciousness focuses on the conceptual mind of thoughts, and focuses on other energetic patterning that support separate-self identification. It's a narrow view of believing the self is merely an independent body-mind entity that appears to live separate from what is mistakenly percieved as "a world outside". As Nisargadatta says, "it is the nature of the mind to roam about" in this hypnotic but limiting fascination with a conceptual self. There is nothing that needs to be done about thoughts and other energy patterning, or nothing that can be done. Let the thoughts be as they are. By recognizing the fleeting nature of the 'mind' and letting it be, consciousness is more freed up to relax. The underlying awareness of this shifting of consciousness from the tumult of concepts on energetic patterns, to an expanding, deepening and more 'impersonal' resting, reveals the true and eternal nature that we are. So the shifting Nisargadatta suggests isn't a mental shifting, but a process of discrimination between what is real and what is insubstantial. |
Edited by - Balance on Jun 07 2010 7:14:44 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2010 : 11:45:21 PM
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quote:
But right at the end, it kind of shocked me to hear Ken suggest to bring the white light down on in the in-breath and then on the out-breath, release it outwards into infinity.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I thought we were obviously talking about the same video .... but now I'm not so sure; I've listened to that one (linked above) twice now ... and didn't hear the part at the end you mentioned.
Can you please provide a link to the video you mean?
Hi Kirtanman :)
Oops, sorry. I ended up watching more Ken Wilber videos and was confused about exactly which one it was.. but it was right at the end of it :) It is around 6:47.
Here is the link where he talks about bringing the light down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhvM...ture=related
quote:
You're discovering the secret of the most powerful techniques ........ the most powerful techniques are the ones that work for us, any of us, at any given time.
Well it seems that on some days, especially when there is a lot of stress at work, when I sit down to meditate I have this mule to contend with which has forgotten many of the finer points. Sometimes it feels like starting over at the beginning with an incredibly stupid animal that just wants to perform the routine and be done with it.
quote:
I hope my comments are useful.
...
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Well yes, I find your comments very useful. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate and expand on the various topics. And thanks again for the Ken Wilber link.
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 12:17:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...
I don't know if you have read it, but Yogani's book on Self-Inquiry discusses the process by which the sense of "I AM" or the witness self is cultivated and deepened in spiritual practice. In the book Yogani describes how meditation is used to cultivate enough silence to be present with the witness, and then he goes on to describe the way in which the witness changes as the enlightenment process unfolds.
Christi
Hi Christi :)
Thanks for your response. Yes, I have read Yogani's Self Inquiry book (just two weeks ago). I'm a little confused about one point. I thought that during samadhi (as in continuous concentrative meditation), the witness and the object fuse together and dissolve. But Yogani makes the Witness sound like it is inner silence so I'm not entirely sure I understand this concept. I should re-read it. Thanks.
quote:
p.s. The white light meditation was discussed briefly here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=5609#50454
Thanks for pointing this out.
Would you like to hear my latest theory?
I was lying in the bathtub, listening to my Tibetan Bells, just thoroughly relaxing and this white light appeared in my head in between the brow and the center of the head. It was the same white light that I've seen during deep relaxation meditation of sensing the inner body. It is the same white light that Gurudeva talks about, the same white light that Allan Wallace talks about that you eventually see during breath meditation.
So I started contemplating this: What if the purpose of mantra repetition, breath meditation, asanas, postures, breath control is just to bring the body and mind to an extremely relaxed state, even more relaxed than deep sleep? Because, that is the only time that I would see that light before. I think it is called a nimitta in buddhist terms.
Then, a funny thing happened to me yesterday. Before my meditation I prayed to Jesus to help me become enlightened and all of a sudden, I could see that same white light in the center of my head, between the brow and the brahmin cave. So I focused on it and just kept watching it. It was very pleasing and easy to focus on. At one point I could see visions and even heard voices speaking in German, but I just kept on focusing on the light. Then I was gone somewhere for a while. I have no idea where. That night, I went to bed and then woke up at 5:30 am wide awake. I set my alarm for 7:00 am, so, I believe that the light meditation definately caused me to not sleep as much, which I've taken as a good sign.
I know we've had many discussion about lights, nimittas, and many things before. I seem to be going round in circles. I hope I can break out of these cycles soon.
Oh, I was going to mention, in another post you mentioned that the advantage of mantra repetition is that once the breath stops, you can still go deeper by using the mantra. This seems to be a popular idea in AYP. My comment is this: I thought that when the breath stops, the mind also stops. If the mind stops, how can it be repeating the mantra at that point? Is the general idea here that when the breath stops for an extended amount of time the mind doesn't stop? Isn't 'stopped breathing' some form of nivikalpa samadhi? Is there still mind in that state?
Thanks again for your comments.
:)
TI
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 07:47:54 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Hi Christi :)
Thanks for your response. Yes, I have read Yogani's Self Inquiry book (just two weeks ago). I'm a little confused about one point. I thought that during samadhi (as in continuous concentrative meditation), the witness and the object fuse together and dissolve. But Yogani makes the Witness sound like it is inner silence so I'm not entirely sure I understand this concept. I should re-read it. Thanks.
Continuous concentrative meditation on an object is dharana. The merging of the subject (witness) and the object in meditation is dhyana. Samadhi is difficult to describe using words but you could say that it is a resting in pure bliss consciousness, or a resting in the true Self. It is a shift in identity rather than having anything to do with concentration.
Inner silence is, at first, the establishment of consciousness in the witness, and then eventually goes beyond the witness (pure subjectivity) in unity. So inner silence is present with dharana, dhyana and samadhi.
quote:
Oh, I was going to mention, in another post you mentioned that the advantage of mantra repetition is that once the breath stops, you can still go deeper by using the mantra. This seems to be a popular idea in AYP. My comment is this: I thought that when the breath stops, the mind also stops. If the mind stops, how can it be repeating the mantra at that point? Is the general idea here that when the breath stops for an extended amount of time the mind doesn't stop?
In my experience, there are a number of things that can happen. The breath can become very subtle during meditation, or can suspend altogether. Also, consciousness can shift from the physical body into one of the more subtle bodies. At this time it is not possible to know if the body is breathing or not, as it is no longer part of our consciousness at that level of vibration. At these times it can still be possible to pick up the mantra at a subtle level, so we can continue working with the meditation object if we are using mantra meditation. There are also levels of samadhi which are beyond the thought process (beyond manomayakosha), so even the mantra cannot be used.
quote:
Isn't 'stopped breathing' some form of nivikalpa samadhi? Is there still mind in that state?
Nirvikalpa samadhi is also called nirbija samadhi which means samadhi without seed. A seed is something which grows into something else, so nirvikalpa samadhi means a state of samadhi in which karma is no longer being created (no seeds of the imagination bearing fruit). It could be a breathless state beyond the universe, or we could be breathing.
There is a state of nirvikalpa samadhi where we are taken beyond the universe. In this state awareness is still present, but thought is not. So whether mind is still there or not depends what you mean by mind. In yoga the term "mind" is often used to mean "mental objects" rather than the space in which fluctuations happen. So yogis talk about going beyond the mind as Nisargadatta does above. In Buddhism the word "mind" is often used to refer to the space of original awareness, with thoughts, sensations ect. being objects of the mind. So Buddhists talk about enlightenment as being the realization of the true nature of the mind or our Buddha nature.
Whether or not the breath is suspended or not in this state of nirvikalpa samadhi where mind is absorbed in the absolute I couldn't tell you, as it is a state in which there is no consciousness of the physical body.
Kirtanman and I discussed this here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....age=14#61413
When yogis have entered this state of mental absorption in the absolute and there has been someone else present to monitor their breathing, they (the onlookers) say that the breath of the yogi is suspended.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Jun 09 2010 06:58:30 AM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 10:42:18 PM
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Hi Christi :)
Thanks for your response.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...
Inner silence is, at first, the establishment of consciousness in the witness, and then eventually goes beyond the witness (pure subjectivity) in unity. So inner silence is present with dharana, dhyana and samadhi.
...
That is interesting. What jumps into my mind is this: "Deep meditation seems to be a method of bypassing dharana, dyana and samadhi to arrive at inner silence without the effort of continuous concentration." And "inner silence is pure awareness, found in the gaps between thoughts and objects". Would you agree?
quote:
Kirtanman and I discussed this here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....age=14#61413
When yogis have entered this state of mental absorption in the absolute and there has been someone else present to monitor their breathing, they (the onlookers) say that the breath of the yogi is suspended.
Christi
Yes, I recall that thread all too well. That was an interesting discussion.
This is where I am at now:
1) Breath regulation such as breathing a 9-1-9-1 (nine seconds in, hold for 1, 9 seconds out, hold for 1) eventually causes the mind to collapse. The outer world disappears, consciousness centers itself more in the spine or sushumna and there are definate physical sensations that accompany the practice. Control the breath, control the mind.
2) The breath control accompanied by extreme relaxation and letting go causes some kind of body reaction where the energetic system (kundalini or self-preservation) kicks in. I've read that one of the goals of pranayama is to stop the breath (and mind) and not be freaked out or afraid, because, at this point the energetic 'breathing' takes over and we realize that don't suffocate. In other words, a secondary form of 'breathing' or 'sustaining the body with lifeforce' kicks in.
3) When this seconday form of 'breathing' kicks in, there should be no more mind to contend with. But there still seems to be something that thinks. I sure hope that isn't what Yogani means by 'stillness in action'...
The big question I have is "How do you know when the mind has stopped?" How do you know when you have succeeded in shifting the focus of consciousness beyond the mind? (as per Nisargadatta's quote)
I've been in states where "I" split into four separate bodies but I could still think, observe and draw conclusions.
How can you separate awareness from thought? How do you really know if you are beyond mind?
:)
TI |
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Gita
India
9 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 03:31:34 AM
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| [b]Another very interesting insight on the character of the term "I AMness" is given on Ed Muzikas blog itisnotreal.blogspot.com. According to this post it is "Turiya" which Nisargadatta referred to as I AMness and reaching that involves various steps and not so easy as is commonly understood by most Neo-Advaitins. You all might want to check that out too.[/b] |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 04:48:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
How do you really know if you are beyond mind?
'beyond mind' is reaching to your original state. The state that existed before your intellect /mind started to function in this world. Your original state before birth.
In the 'beyond mind' state there will be no TI, no Tibet, no Ice, no AYP, no Christi, no manigma, no questions, no world, no knowledge.
I am sure Christi will explain in a better way. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 09:23:16 AM
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Hi TI,
quote:
That is interesting. What jumps into my mind is this: "Deep meditation seems to be a method of bypassing dharana, dyana and samadhi to arrive at inner silence without the effort of continuous concentration." And "inner silence is pure awareness, found in the gaps between thoughts and objects". Would you agree?
I wouldn't agree entirely, no. Deep meditation does avoid the effort of continuous concentration, yes. But it still involves the process of dharana, dhyana and samadhi going inwards with the mantra. Inner Silence is described in the lessons at times as the witness, and in other places as samadhi. You could say that inner silence is found at first in the gaps between thoughts and objects.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 5:36:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
How do you really know if you are beyond mind?
'beyond mind' is reaching to your original state. The state that existed before your intellect /mind started to function in this world. Your original state before birth.
In the 'beyond mind' state there will be no TI, no Tibet, no Ice, no AYP, no Christi, no manigma, no questions, no world, no knowledge.
I am sure Christi will explain in a better way.
I can't really add to that, except to say that personalities don't just dissapear. They are simply seen to be what they are... personalities. Christi does not go away, but I am not that. We come to know our true nature as infinite and eternal. The whole ocean, instead of a wave on it's surface.
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 8:39:08 PM
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Hi Christi, TI & All,
I fundamentally agree with what Christi has said here.
I'd just like to add: I would say that inner silence, the gaps between perception, pure awareness, etc. ... are all actually synonymous.
However, for quite some time after we start practices, it's likely that inner silence, or gaps in perception, or the witness state, etc., won't be recognized and experience as what we actually are.
But then, bit by bit, this becomes more and more clear.
And so, while we do have a true experience of the Self in every gap or moment of genuine inner silence, it is usually not recognized as such, because ego (literally the tattva Ahamkara, the "I-maker") grabs hold of it and says "I had an experience of inner silence."
Actually, just the inverse is true: in that moment, the pure awareness we actually are is mis-identifiying with a thought: "I had an experience of inner silence."
Experiencing self as formless awareness ever more fully is the trajectory of sadhana.
Bit by bit, as silence and formless awareness (awareness free of artificial contraction around, and identification with, thoughts) increase in experience .... it begins to dawn on us ..... "Oh ..... WOW .......... I'm not experiencing silence ........... I'm silence experiencing!"
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 9:05:31 PM
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Hi TI & All,
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
How do you really know if you are beyond mind?
Again, I agree with what Christi has said.
I'd specifically like to add: you don't know you're beyond mind; you never know --- you experience (though it's both a you-less and experience-less experience. )
In two of the Shiva Sutras' three sections (the first/highest, last/lowest, level-of-self/awareness wise), the sutras (and so, 1.2 & 3.2) are exactly the same:
Jnanam Bandhah
"Knowledge is Bondage"
For 1.2 the explanation is that there are two types of binding knowledge:
1. Not-knowing ourself as the fullness of liberated awareness.
2. (Incorrectly) Knowing ourselves as limited beings (identifying with form; thinking we're "really the person we think we are").
For 3.2 the explanation is even more simple:
All knowledge is bondage.
Why? Because the sense of self is incorrect.
3.1 states "Atma Cittam" (The self is limited mind) .... which is what it seems like for all of us, when we start practices.
When sense of self is incorrect, nothing else can be correct.
And so, beyond mind literally means "beyond mind" ...... where reference cannot go; where no thought-form or reasoning is qualified to comment.
The Tao which can be spoken of is not the Tao.
That doesn't make the Tao less real, but rather infinitely real .... because there's no limited, artificial evaluation about it.
This all may be kind of a frustrating answer to the mind, but it's about as true as words can make it (<-- words not being terribly useful to communicate what we're discussing, here. )
I can tell you that you can and will know when you're beyond mind, and/or when it starts happening repeatedly.
Basically, if you evaluate with form (via thinking about it), you might decide that you were or weren't beyond mind; thought and evaluation are very fickle things .... that's why enlightenment essentially consists of the freedom from confusing them (thought and evaluation) with reality, any longer.
It's more that the experience of formlessness begins to turbo-charge your life; pure awareness begins to bleed through into waking, dreaming and deep sleep ... and there's a phase of experiencing greater and greater awareness, greater amounts of the time, until there's not.
Why "not".
Because, when it all stops, you know yourself as unbound awareness, living.
You no longer experience awareness; you are awareness, experiencing. Our automatic, default sense-of-self literally dissolves away from being confused with form, and what is here once that dream-barrier is dissolved, is awareness knowing Self as unbound awareness.
The words make it sound like more than it is; it's actually nothing at all. Self-reference dissolves as any kind of arbiter of reality; that's seen through. Thoughts of self (or anything) are seen to be as conditioned, arbitrary and transitory as the content of any other sense (vision, hearing, etc.).
The formerly dual dynamic of mind-life becomes the three-yet-One dynamic of awareness-mind-life.
Mind assumes it's proper place as a sense in "front" of who/what we actually are, as opposed to being the tyrannical master and monster of our life (which it usually is, when we live a life of thoughts and feelings dominating our experience .... when we allow the story to write us).
That's what it really means to be beyond mind. It's one thing to experience being beyond mind; quite another to know ourselves as actually being inherently free of mind and limitation.
And so (I'm actually "getting" how to express this, as I write these words) ... the simple answer to the question is:
You know you're beyond mind when mind is experienced as a sense and not a self.
Basically, if any word, thought, energy, reference point or anything can tell you anything about it .... that's not it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2010 : 10:29:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gita
[b]Another very interesting insight on the character of the term "I AMness" is given on Ed Muzikas blog itisnotreal.blogspot.com. According to this post it is "Turiya" which Nisargadatta referred to as I AMness and reaching that involves various steps and not so easy as is commonly understood by most Neo-Advaitins. You all might want to check that out too.[/b]
Hi Gita :)
Thank you for mentioning that link. It is actually quite a profound piece of work and it was good to re-read it again. I spent most of the day re-reading Ed's writings..
I especially like the part where it says:
http://itisnotreal.com/Hunting%20the%20I.htm
quote:
Therefore, join the looker.
So there are two steps: locate the looker, as the subject of sensations, and try to play with it to observe all of it's manisfestations, then to rest in the looker, relax and let the looker look, and become the looker only.
The other part I really enjoyed reading about is this (because I'm now seeing that third eye light quite a bit and having fun with it like he did, wasting time...)
quote:
I, being kind of dense, required years of practice. I was always introspective in a sense, easily lost in an inner world of thoughts and emotions, but that inner world was never open and spacious. I learned to open that inner, dark, subjectivity through opening the Third Eye by becoming aware of a light between the eyebrows and ever expanding that light downwards into the earth and then upwards and outwards, revealing an imaginal space filled with light, the so-called light of consciousness. But the problem was I spent years there in that lighted void space, thinking it was reality, not recognizing I was still separate and witnessing the void. I was far beyond the void, but was caught in ignorance. I was waiting to find the absolute sense of subjectivity by continuing to look into the Void.
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jun 11 2010 11:56:12 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2010 : 12:46:55 AM
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Hi Kirtanman, Christi, Manigma (light man) and everyone.
Basically I was asking a very simple question: How does one know when one is beyond the mind? What are the signposts?
Thank you everyone for all your responses.
First, I would like to clear up one thing. I believe that when the breathing stops, the mind stops. There is no way that a person can produce a mantra when the mind is stopped. The argument that mantra repetition is better because if the breathing stops there is nothing left to focus on is invalid. Many of the buddhist teachings that I've read concerning breath meditation say that breath meditation will not go very deep and they rely on 'noticing when the signs (lights or nimittas) appear' and then have specific instructions to switch the attention to the signs (or some other aspect such as the pleasureable feeling of breathing etc). So yes, it is true that breath meditation will not take you very deep unless you are familiar with the technique and when to switch your attention. Sorry for bringing this up but anyone who says that breath meditation is not useful, because when the breathing stops there is nothing to focus on, just doesn't understand classic buddhist breath meditation and shouldn't be using that as an argument to prop up mantra meditation above breath meditation.
I've just finished reading B. Alan Wallace's "The Four Immeasurables -Cultivating a Boundless Heart" and he says pretty much the same thing:
quote:
For the actual attainment of samatha, it is said on good authority that samatha will be achieved only if you are focusing on a mental object. If you attend to a sensory object, like music, or flowers, you may have superb concentration. But your concentration will not reach the same depth as if you're focusing on a mental object. It's for this reason that you transfer focus from the breath to the mental sign that appears as your samatha practice progresses.
Actually, this last quote took me by surprise. Because!!! The mantra is a mental object!! Breath awareness or meditation is a form of focusing on sensory information. I had noticed that myself. During my breath meditation sessions, I did not get that deep down petrified feeling like I do with mantra repetition (along with simple kechari, sambhavi, and gross relaxation). Ha Ha.. I thought I was doing too much and meditating the wrong way by adding all those things.. but now I'm thinking that I was doing just fine. I just needed someone to tell me that when you see a vast space filled with colorful thoughts and visions, that is part of the path and that you are progressing just fine. Just keep at it! :)
I found that confirmation in Alan Wallace's book. On page 79 he says this:
quote:
...
But what is the quality of awareness, of the contents of awareness, thoughts and so forth? The qualities you look for in this type of practice are the experience of the luminosity and transparency of awareness.
These are just words, of course, but all you can do is start with a few metaphors, because awareness is not like anything else in the universe. Gen Lamrimpa gives as perfect an analogy as I've found: Imagine a spring with a sandy bottom and water utterly pure and clear, lit by radiant sunlight. At high noon the sun beats down through the water, but there is not a thing in the midst of the water. Imagine now just a speck of dust floating in the midst of the water. That speck of dust, under those circumstances, appears very brilliantly. Awareness itself is like the pool of water: one of its features is vivid luminosity and another is transparency. The transparency is what makes it so hard to grab on to. But within that transparent domain, should anything appear, it will appear vividly. That quality of luminousity is present even when there's nothing it it. but having some content, like the speck of dust, makes it possible to see the luminosity and transparency. So, continuing with the analogy, having begun with the breath awareness and coming to relative stillness, you may toss up a thought deliberately, like tossing a speck of dust into the pool: "What is the mind?" You could ask anything. You could say: "Pass the popcorn," but then you would probably start thinking about popcorn. So the purpose of tossing up a thought like this is not to start pondering the nature of the mind, but just to direct your awareness to that thought, and note by its presence the luminosity of its environment. You can see the thought. Then it fades out, like the dust dissolving into the water, but the limpidity and luminosity remain. That takes some time, and it takes a very subtle mind to do it. But if you can do it, it will open doors.
To me, the 'tossing up a thought' is like performing mantra repetition. Interesting, isn't it?
So, of course, this begs the question: If awareness as luminosity and transparency surround the thought, is awareness "deep silence"? It would seem to be the case because of the descriptions that many have posted on this forum that "deep silence" appears in the gaps and surrounding the mantra (a thought).
But more importantly for me, this last explanation also confirms that I was on the right path with my mantra meditation. I've experienced that luminosity and transparency many times; I've seen thoughts glowing. I'm happy to read about a visual representation of what is supposed to occur because that is what has been happening to me.
However, I don't think I've resolved the question of "How can you tell if you are beyond the mind". I think I've exposed a scenario of what to expect when the mind is totally still: luminous and transparent. I'm really enjoying this because I have had experiences in nature where I've seen a luminous transparent liquid-like phenomenon come forth from my body and cause the nature scene to glow like nothing I've ever seen before. I think these are good signs.
I guess I'm being my own guru here... Sorry.. Hope this might help others..
This is currently what I'm experiencing in my routine:
During Spinal Breathing (to a controlled 9-1-9-1 pattern) the nimitta appears. After Spinal Breathing I play with the nimitta. It is fun to stretch it upwards and downwards like Ed was doing.. Then, I do the "I AM" mantra repetition with tongue on palatte, eyes rolled up and I visualize the mantra in the cave of brahmin. I try not to subvocalize the mantra. After a while, I crank up the vividness and put in a lot of effort to overcome the laxity (being dragged into the dream state). My thoughts become very clear, crisp and clean visually, and I find myself in a dark space with very colorful strings of color and visions (which I ignore). I create the mantra and then watch it dissolve. And yes, it is exactly like a pond of water, transparent and luminous! Occasionally, I merge with the mantra (it becomes radiant and glowing and then I lose me). When that part of the meditation is over, I turn my attention to become the looker (or Witness) as the Witness is getting very pronounced at this point. And, after re-reading Ed Muzika's blog again today, I'm resolved to attempt to sink back into the "Looker" after all of that.
I think I am doing fine.
My last comment is this: According to Alan Wallace, "the great shortcut is Vajrayana". I've never heard of it. Does anyone know of any good books on Vajrayana?
:)
TI
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2010 : 03:19:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
How do you really know if you are beyond mind?
'beyond mind' is reaching to your original state. The state that existed before your intellect /mind started to function in this world. Your original state before birth.
In the 'beyond mind' state there will be no TI, no Tibet, no Ice, no AYP, no Christi, no manigma, no questions, no world, no knowledge.
I am sure Christi will explain in a better way.
I can't really add to that, except to say that personalities don't just dissapear. They are simply seen to be what they are... personalities. Christi does not go away, but I am not that. We come to know our true nature as infinite and eternal. The whole ocean, instead of a wave on it's surface.
Christi
The personality will remain as long as you remain below mind. Beyond mind, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get identified with your personality.
The personality is based on ego. When the ego is uprooted completely, what remains is impossible to explain in words.
I repeat, it is simply impossible to return to your Personality when your ego is uprooted completely.
There will be no Christi.
All this yoga, meditation is being done for what? To become that and again return to the personality?
Impossible!!
"Lest any should say, How then is it that we continue to enjoy such unspeakable glory in a mortal body? Paul replies, this very fact is one of the most marvellous proofs of God's power, that an earthen vessel could bear such splendor and keep such a treasure" [Chrysostom, Homilies, 8.496, A]. The treasure or "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God." The fragile "earthen vessel" is the body, the "outward man" (2Co 4:16; compare 2Co 4:10), liable to afflictions and death. So the light in Gideon's pitchers, the type (Jud 7:16-20, 22). The ancients often kept their treasures in jars or vessels of earthenware. "There are earthen vessels which yet may be clean; whereas a golden vessel may be filthy" [Bengel].
that the excellency of the power,-that the power of the ministry (the Holy Spirit), in respect to its surpassing "excellency," exhibited in winning souls (1Co 2:4) and in sustaining us ministers, might be ascribed solely to God, we being weak as earthen vessels. God often allows the vessel to be chipped and broken, that the excellency of the treasure contained, and of the power which that treasure has, may be all His (2Co 4:10, 11; Joh 3:30).
may be of God . not of us-rather, as Greek, "may be God's (may be seen and be thankfully [2Co 4:15] acknowledged to belong to God), and not (to come) from us." The power not merely comes from God, but belongs to Him continually, and is to be ascribed to him.
http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/4-7.htm
Christi does go away. When you become him! (Beyond mind) You can not say I am Christi. Neither you can say:
quote:
We come to know our true nature as infinite and eternal. The whole ocean, instead of a wave on it's surface.
Christi
Words come from 'below mind' state, not 'beyond mind'.
But as long as you remain in the body. You can sure come 'below mind' and speak and try to express your 'beyond mind' state. |
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Gita
India
9 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2010 : 04:49:16 AM
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Thanks TI :-)
Yes that is what Rajiv was pointing out that the instructions Maharaj gave were very similar to the ones Ed Muzika gives in 'Hunting the I'
Great going for you !!! |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2010 : 04:58:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I believe that when the breathing stops, the mind stops.
When your breathing stops, who knows that the mind has also stopped?
GRADUALLY IT GOES TO AND FRO QUITE SOFTLY: IT RISES AND FALLS IMPERCEPTIBLY. THE PULSE STANDS STILL AND BREATHING STOPS. THIS IS THE MOMENT OF TRUE CREATIVE UNION, THE STATE OF WHICH IT IS SAID: THE MOON GATHERS UP THE TEN THOUSAND WATERS. IN THE MIDST OF THIS DARKNESS, THE HEAVENLY HEART SUDDENLY BEGINS A MOVEMENT. - Lao Tzu
The Lord is sleeping inside you like a baby child. Give it a shock!
The moment it opens its eyes. You will burn all your books. Because you won't need them anymore.
And BTW, I am neither light nor man. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2010 : 9:03:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman, Christi, Manigma (light man) and everyone.
Basically I was asking a very simple question: How does one know when one is beyond the mind? What are the signposts?
And my answer was very simple, though it may have gotten lost a bit in my own translation, as it sometimes does ....
There aren't any.
And it seems that (per this post) you're really starting to get the flavor of why/how this is the case .... you just may not have had the "click" that helps you get how it applies to "beyond mind".
You can't apply "signposts" as an evaluation of being beyond mind, because being beyond mind is (exactly, actually and completely) where there are no signs or signposts; no subjects, objects or perceptions ........ all that stuff is in mind; beyond mind is beyond .... it's the super-set which contains mind.
Mind is our means of perceiving mental form.
Beyond mind, aka original awareness, aka Self, aka No-Self, is the pure, clear, whole awareness that's reading (and writing) these words; there's only One.
That's what makes this whole game so hard to understand: it can't be understood, and no one understands that.
Now, I understand that I may be kinda-sorta taking your term "signposts" too literally, but I hope you get the point: objects in awareness can help you with the aspect of awareness that is beyond objects / before objects / containing objects / comprising objects.
From one side, everything. From one side, One.
One - that's the "side" we each and all ever actually are now; it can be perceived are held in awareness, it's back toward you .... just more open, more relaxed, more limitless, more all-now.
quote:
I've just finished reading B. Alan Wallace's "The Four Immeasurables -Cultivating a Boundless Heart" and he says pretty much the same thing:
B. Alan Wallace rocks; you can't go wrong with B. Alan Wallace.
And while I can't comment on Vajrayana specifically, I do know that it is considered "Buddhist Kashmir Shaivism" (just as Kashmir Shaivism is considered "Shaivite Buddhism" ) .... point being:
Both Vajrayana and Kashmir Shaivism are very open-architecture containers for essentially everything that matters, as far as the teachings, techniques and resources that help us to experience enlightenment; only the symbol-sets and languages vary.
If you're interested in Kashmir Shaivism, I can likely help (as you've probably figured out by now).
If you really do want to pursue Vajrayana books specifically, I'll have to defer to someone else for that ... though if anyone knows of good Vajrayana books, I'd be interested, too .... I actually didn't realize, until I just did a few minutes Googling, how closely connected Vajrayana and Kashmir Shaivism are considered to be.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Great post; I'm very glad to hear of your "own guru" sense of things; in my own experience, and the experience of at least a small handful of others I know, this is how it happens: first, external resources; then the internal resource of inner guru; finally, knowing ... which is all just the operating princple of bhakti / intuition / pratibha, operating in our own awareness, expanding as our ability to receive and work with it, expands. as Ramana said: "God, Guru and Self are One." (There's only one field of awareness here.)
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2010 : 11:09:21 PM
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Hi Kirtanman :)
quote:
Basically I was asking a very simple question: How does one know when one is beyond the mind? What are the signposts?
quote:
And my answer was very simple, though it may have gotten lost a bit in my own translation, as it sometimes does ....
There aren't any.
And it seems that (per this post) you're really starting to get the flavor of why/how this is the case .... you just may not have had the "click" that helps you get how it applies to "beyond mind".
You can't apply "signposts" as an evaluation of being beyond mind, because being beyond mind is (exactly, actually and completely) where there are no signs or signposts; no subjects, objects or perceptions ........ all that stuff is in mind; beyond mind is beyond .... it's the super-set which contains mind.
Mind is our means of perceiving mental form.
Beyond mind, aka original awareness, aka Self, aka No-Self, is the pure, clear, whole awareness that's reading (and writing) these words; there's only One.
That's what makes this whole game so hard to understand: it can't be understood, and no one understands that.
Now, I understand that I may be kinda-sorta taking your term "signposts" too literally, but I hope you get the point: objects in awareness can help you with the aspect of awareness that is beyond objects / before objects / containing objects / comprising objects.
From one side, everything. From one side, One.
One - that's the "side" we each and all ever actually are now; it can be perceived are held in awareness, it's back toward you .... just more open, more relaxed, more limitless, more all-now.
Hmmm.. I thought it might be a very simple sign like "There is luminosity and transparency". I had a very interesting meditation today. I did my normal routine; during the meditation I put a lot of effort into watching where the mantra comes from, where it exists and what it dissolves into. I paid particular attention to the quality of the thought, it's luminosity and the surrounding luminosity. After a while, I had succeeded in discovering a black luminous space from which the mantra was appearing. After the timer went off, I then turned my attention on "who was perceiving all of this" and I found a great space of stillness that felt like me. I was captivated and I succeeded in becoming aware that something was aware. It is hard to describe aside from saying that it is large, feels like it could expand, is dark and luminous and very still.
quote:
Both Vajrayana and Kashmir Shaivism are very open-architecture containers for essentially everything that matters, as far as the teachings, techniques and resources that help us to experience enlightenment; only the symbol-sets and languages vary.
After researching Vajrayana on the Wiki, the only thing that resonated in my mind was that it sure sounded like AYP to me! I mean, use of mantra, tantra, the usage of many techniques all acting together to bring about a quick result... Maybe this technically isn't correct, but that's what it reminded me of.
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PS- Great post; I'm very glad to hear of your "own guru" sense of things; in my own experience, and the experience of at least a small handful of others I know, this is how it happens: first, external resources; then the internal resource of inner guru; finally, knowing ... which is all just the operating princple of bhakti / intuition / pratibha, operating in our own awareness, expanding as our ability to receive and work with it, expands. as Ramana said: "God, Guru and Self are One." (There's only one field of awareness here.)
Thanks for the encouragement.. :)
:)
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Nisargadatta On Steadying Mind
