|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
xsmail108
India
1 Posts |
|
|
Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2009 : 8:30:52 PM
|
Hi xsmail :)
quote:
Interesting account by an Advaita Guru - Ed Muzika, disciple of Robert Adams. An intense discussion with a kriya yogi.
Please read at following site -
http://itisnotreal.com/Self-Knowled...ialogues.pdf
Thank you for that! I really appreciate reading that. You don't know how much it means to me to have found this text.
It has answered my question. You see, a while back I discovered that there are two areas in the head that scramble the brain and cause a sleep like state. The first is area is behind the brow about 1 inch inwards. If I focus on that area, roll my eyes up and pretend to sleep, soon I'm seeing visions and dreams.
However, the other area, further back and down a little, more at the brain stem area, is what I've always wondered about. You see, when I roll my eyes upwards and then press into that area and downwards (it does feel like downwards), I lose consciousness very quickly, feel like I'm being drawn into a black hole and there is much fear there. It is similar to making believe you are going to pass out or drain your mind downward into the black hole. It too feels like you are going to die (just like the big void outside the back of the head). But worse yet, it feels like you are going to die and lose control, lose all awareness, and guess what??? You do!!!
One time I pressed on into that state and blacked out. When I returned to my body, it felt like I was returning through a fine wire mesh of bodies and I also had several electric shocks. Then I thought I was going to be sick to my stomach. I almost threw up and had to go lie down. I felt so weak and wobbly and I started sweating. It really jolted me to the core of my being. Since that last episode I had dropped that practice!! It seemed like a fast way to really make you feel sick and pass out. Now to read that that is the next step beyond unity consciousness (which is an imaginary enlightenment) just totally amazes me. Thank you!!
Here is the quote I refer to (in the link you posted):
Quote
EDJI:
All that I am telling you is concepts, causal body, subtle, etc.
They correspond to different type of knowing or not knowing which are universal.
Right now you are in knowing oneness, but that is illusion. Still you have you know it to go beyond it.
Next comes becoming totally stupid--letting go of knowing and awareness. It often feels like death--and it is death to the I Am consciousness. But you have to get used to being nothing. Now you are getting acquainted with the nothingness of the Void, but a deeper nothingness means only darkness and not knowing.
You can feel what it is like--at least for me--by sitting in Padmasana, and letting your consciousness leave your head and go downward into your body into the belly. Focus you mind in your belly. Deep sleep is another similar state.
At some point, you should experience a "dropping" of your conscious center to the belly, and just before it drops, it will feel like your brain is becoming hard and dense as a rock and your awareness of luminous consciousness will disappear. You will pass through a state like sleep where there is nothing at all. There is no you there. No consciousness, no experience.
After you mind drops into your belly, you will instantly become one with everything. All the world will be no different from you. There will be no division between your body and the world. The body disappears and you are the world in total Samadhi. This is your "glimpse" state carried to the ultimate end.
That brief period when the mind is dropping, is the start of forgetfulness that you will need to repeatedly experience. The apparent you passes through it, from one state of knowing consciousness, to knowing nothing, and then perfect Samadhi with everything. You know it as a memory of the passage.
This stage is very important. It must be lived in everyday life too: knowing nothing, not having an opinion or idea. It is one way the world you dwell in is destroyed and transcended.
You are having great fun now in consciousness and I don't want to stop it. Just know it is imaginational, not real. Neither is fogetfulness. No state of body is real. It is a function of you, but no more real than a dream.
By the way, anything said about dropping the center of consciousness to the belly, is also true about that center dropping to the heart. It is just that the Zen way I practiced emphasized the belly rather than the heart.
End Quote
I hope Kirtanman and Christi read that discussion sometimes. I'd love to hear what they think of what's being described as "beyond unity consciousness".
Actually, probably every advanced meditator on this forum should read that discussion. Hopefully they will.
Thank you again.
May God bless you.
I smile at you in deep gratitude.
:)
TI
|
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Dec 05 2009 8:39:21 PM |
 |
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2009 : 04:09:51 AM
|
Didn't read it all, only your quote, T_I, but it was great cause it confirmed what I tried to ask here, but didn't get any answer to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#59993
And T_I, I'm glad you are discovering the Blackness!  The Light is sometimes called "the light of consciousness". Consciousness manifests as Light, it moves with the speed of light. That's the Shiva-Shakti dance of Existence, where everything is energy/light/consciousness/I AM-ness. The sense of "I am everything" and "I am nothing - I'm consciousness" simultaneously. Unity consciousness.
Beyond the light and I AM-ness is Pure Awareness. Awareness doesn't move. It's instant. It's beyond both form and non-form (shakti and shiva). It doesn't have an I/eye - that's consciousness! (The I that everybody uses to point to themselves is the same I/eye - it's consciousness.) Beyond consciousness is what enables the dance of the One coin with two sides: shiva-shakti, stillness-movement.
The sucking into that black hole is really fearful to the MIND - the mind cannot go there, as you have discovered. It will definitely die passing that hole. And it will make you feel sick if your body is not purified enough to go there. It's the point BEFORE the big bang. The Source. The Absolute. That. The unnamable, the undescribable. |
Edited by - emc on Dec 06 2009 06:03:07 AM |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2009 : 11:26:31 AM
|
| Thnaks a lot for that. I too have benefited form it and it also answered some of my own questions. Particulalry the differences between conscioussness and awareness and the state of loving conscioussness (all the visible) and Oneness. Like the student in the text I have also dwelled in that state and it felt great. But it too went. According to this teacher that too is not real but I like the way he describes it as being in Love with Conscioussness. That is precisely how it felt to me. And I like the way he does not necessarily discourages this state and believes that this Love will actually lead the student to a deeper understanding of awareness, or the subject, or that which is beyond all form. I am still far from that, like the student was in the beggining. This is a natural process of understanding unfolding, it appears. |
|
|
|
Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2009 : 3:54:32 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Didn't read it all, only your quote, T_I, but it was great cause it confirmed what I tried to ask here, but didn't get any answer to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#59993
And T_I, I'm glad you are discovering the Blackness! The Light is sometimes called "the light of consciousness". Consciousness manifests as Light, it moves with the speed of light. That's the Shiva-Shakti dance of Existence, where everything is energy/light/consciousness/I AM-ness. The sense of "I am everything" and "I am nothing - I'm consciousness" simultaneously. Unity consciousness.
Beyond the light and I AM-ness is Pure Awareness. Awareness doesn't move. It's instant. It's beyond both form and non-form (shakti and shiva). It doesn't have an I/eye - that's consciousness! (The I that everybody uses to point to themselves is the same I/eye - it's consciousness.) Beyond consciousness is what enables the dance of the One coin with two sides: shiva-shakti, stillness-movement.
The sucking into that black hole is really fearful to the MIND - the mind cannot go there, as you have discovered. It will definitely die passing that hole. And it will make you feel sick if your body is not purified enough to go there. It's the point BEFORE the big bang. The Source. The Absolute. That. The unnamable, the undescribable.
Wow, emc! Thanks for that explanation. :)
Oh my God emc! You are becoming my guru! :)
Now that you've put it like that, I understand. I thought the 'blackness' that you have been refering to is in the same space as the light, only to the side of the light or around it. Now I see that it is something different than that.
I've been playing in consciousness/awareness. Yes, the mantra/intention comes from the light, my thoughts come from the light, the light is always there except when I do that pushing down into the black hole. Or perhaps at that point the light is still there except there is nothing left to percieve it with?
I tried pushing into the black hole again last night for a few seconds. What happens is that I'm no longer aware of my surroundings, the dream state goes whizzing by the third eye towards the front of the brow, and then my mind/consciousness/sensations/thoughts/everything gets sucked into this black hole spiralling downwards. The process is so distracting and all-consuming that I can't tell if the "I" disappears or not. The black hole starts at what seems to be the center of my head just above where the spine connects to the head and then goes downward.
There is a spiraling sensation and then "blackness". Then it feels like "I'm" going to die and lose control of my body. So I pull out. Then, I feel like I'm going to throw up, like I've been in a very deep unconscious sleep and it takes a few minutes to get oriented again. If I try to walk too soon after that my sense of vertigo is deffective.
The process is easier to do at night time; if I try it during the day, sometimes it is a bit harder to start it going. But once it does, and only after a few seconds, when I don't even go all the way, it feels like I just woke up from a bad/deep sleep, the mind is disoriented and the feeling is quite pronounced, almost like I am sleep walking. It feels like I turn into a zombie. My mind doesn't like it at all!
Actually, it is very frightening for me and I kind of have to force myself to even try it. There is a very deep fear that I'm going to have to get over. It is a combination of fear of death, fear of falling over and bumping my head and fear of getting sick.. I can see that I'm going to have a real fight on my hands.
I don't think this is the Void that I've been to before. Although, technically, I wouldn't know because I've never followed through and gone into the black hole for very long.
How did you purify yourself? Do you sometimes feel sick when trying to enter or return from the black hole? Any pointers like having an empty stomach etc?
What's it like on the other side of that black hole?
:)
TI |
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2009 : 6:07:40 PM
|
Oh, please, T_I, come on!  I'm thrown around like a rotten shrimp, going in through the hole and being spit out again because I'm too rotten and bad tasting still...  I feel like sh*t afterwards too. Nausea, vertigo, and all the kundalini rashes in the world. And the explanations of what it's all about is what I've seen and come to "know" in some strange way through being that blackness - most often in presence of sages, tuning in on their realizations and freqency. Together with the glimpses and experiences, though, it's experienced as perfectly clear here. I might be totally wrong, but it feels extremely clear here, and every sage I ever meet or read only nods and smiles as in "yep".
YogaisLife - yes, I haven't read the base document yet, but the Loving - from what I sense while doing The Form - the love is the "friction" occuring between movement and stillness. That's why they have to appear simultaneously. We can't have one without the other. Movement is rubbing itself against the stillness, and it's the greatest lovemaking ever!!! Eternal! And beyond that - even love dissolves... |
|
|
|
YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2009 : 6:30:09 PM
|
quote:
YogaisLife - yes, I haven't read the base document yet, but the Loving - from what I sense while doing The Form - the love is the "friction" occuring between movement and stillness. That's why they have to appear simultaneously. We can't have one without the other. Movement is rubbing itself against the stillness, and it's the greatest lovemaking ever!!! Eternal! And beyond that - even love dissolves...
Yes, there are many ways of describing this..."stillness" and "movements" are as well concepts after all. But I see at what you're pointing at :)
The way the "student" describes it there it is very much like I felt it: the Love of Oneness, the Love for all that is, the Flowing with it all, effortlessly. This was before I read about any of thsi concepts and that is what made it so "real". But this also comes and goes apparently. It is probably through resting in Being, which is beyond all form and yet is form - which is essentially us really! - that the state of "flowing" will be forever present, because that state of flowing is nothing more than what others call "being in the present". Or in other words, being ourselves :)
I am getting more and more suspicious that there is nothing mystical or esoteric about this, nor particulalry difficult, that this is indeed closer to ourselves than we usually assume to be, and we put it away from us simply by creating a "journey" from here to there...it is more from here to here :) I am finding, for example, that meditation is the simplest thing - simply resting in ourselves, nor acting nor following any desire/movement but simply being and aware. Sounds simple doesn't it? :) I am finding this to be the greatest joy, the simplest secret, a "secret" that is ever present... |
|
|
|
mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2009 : 01:55:38 AM
|
Thank You for this xsmail,
Mufad.
|
|
|
|
emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2009 : 04:45:47 AM
|
| I read the whole page now. Beautiful! Absolutely beautiful! Thank you xsmail, and welcome to the forum! I hope you will continue to share with us! |
|
|
|
manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2009 : 08:57:09 AM
|
Here are my favourite lines from this dialogue:
Understanding without meditation is dry and weak, while meditation practice without understanding is wild and frightening with fearful manifestation of a Consciousness that can appear to have gone mad.
- I went mad but was saved by Lord Shiva.
My state is like a man drunk but with extreme and heightened attention.
- I was telling my wife a few weeks ago that the image of Lord Shiva with the snake around his neck means just this. The snake symbolises alertness!! http://img5.travelblog.org/Photos/4...utiful-3.jpg
If you can formalize your meditation and sit in Padmasana for about 45 minutes in the morning, you should be able to generate it at will.
- My body sits in Siddhasana for about 45 minutes every morning.
Consciousness---God---is revealing everything to you. There is no need to rush.
- I came to realise this a few months ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Actually, it is very frightening for me and I kind of have to force myself to even try it. There is a very deep fear that I'm going to have to get over. It is a combination of fear of death, fear of falling over and bumping my head and fear of getting sick.. I can see that I'm going to have a real fight on my hands.
Dear TI
It is better if you try in the morning. And there is no need to fear or fight. You know how Buddha fought with Mara?
I also recommend this book to you http://www.otantra.net/oTantraMedText.html I am going through vol 2 at the moment.
Each method is like a hammer blow to the mind as Edji would say...:
AS BREATH TURNS FROM DOWN TO UP, AND AGAIN AS BREATH CURVES FROM UP TO DOWN -- THROUGH BOTH THESE TURNS, REALIZE.
OR, WHEN BREATH IS ALL OUT (UP) AND STOPPED OF ITSELF, OR ALL IN (DOWN) AND STOPPED -- IN SUCH UNIVERSAL PAUSE, ONE'S SMALL SELF VANISHES. THIS IS DIFFICULT ONLY FOR THE IMPURE.
STOP THE DOORS OF THE SENSES WHEN FEELING THE CREEPING OF AN ANT. THEN.
LOOK LOVINGLY AT SOME OBJECT. DO NOT GO TO ANOTHER OBJECT. HERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OBJECT -- THE BLESSING.
AS WAVES COME WITH WATER AND FLAMES WITH FIRE, SO THE UNIVERSAL WAVES WITH US.
HERE IS THE SPHERE OF CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE. THROUGH CHANGE
CONSUME CHANGE.  |
|
|
|
Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2009 : 9:04:02 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by manigma
Dear TI
It is better if you try in the morning. And there is no need to fear or fight. You know how Buddha fought with Mara?
I also recommend this book to you http://www.otantra.net/oTantraMedText.html I am going through vol 2 at the moment.
Each method is like a hammer blow to the mind as Edji would say...:
...
Hi manigma :)
Thank you for the advice.
I have that book. Your quotes are from Osho's Book of Secrets. Every now and then when I really want to challenge my views, I pick it up and read some more.
I'm still debating whether or not "Heaven and Hell" and the "endless wheel of infinite reincarnations" is really just a tool to coerce people into spirituality as Osho suggested at one point in that book..
:)
TI |
|
|
|
manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2009 : 01:51:45 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I'm still debating whether or not "Heaven and Hell" and the "endless wheel of infinite reincarnations" is really just a tool to coerce people into spirituality as Osho suggested at one point in that book..
:)
TI
Is there really a need to debate? What does it matter if they are real or just a tool?
KARMA, PAST ACTIONS, BEAR FRUITS ONLY WHEN WE HAVE A FEELING OF MY-NESS FOR OUR BODIES. IT IS NEVER DESIRABLE TO HAVE A FEELING OF MYSELF FOR THE BODY. THUS, BY GIVING UP THE FEELING OF MY-NESS FOR THE BODY ONE GIVES UP THE FRUITS OF PAST ACTIONS.
THIS FALLACY THAT THE BODY IS MYSELF IS THE CAUSE OF CREATING IN THE IMAGINATION THE IDEA OF PAST ACTIONS. BUT HOW COULD SOMETHING BE TRUE THAT IS IMPOSED OR IMAGINED ABOUT A FALLACY?
FROM WHERE CAN A THING BE BORN WHICH IS NOT REAL IN THE FIRST PLACE? WHAT HAS NOT BEEN BORN, HOW CAN IT BE DESTROYED? HOW CAN A THING THAT IS UNREAL HAVE PAST ACTIONS?
THE MY-NESS WITH THE BODY IS THE RESULT OF OUR IGNORANCE AND IT IS DESTROYED TOTALLY BY ENLIGHTENMENT. THEN HOW DOES THE BODY REMAIN? IT IS TO SATISFY THIS DOUBT OF THE IGNORANT THAT THE SCRIPTURES HAVE OUTWARDLY ATTRIBUTED THE CONTINUANCE OF THE BODY TO PAST ACTIONS.
http://www.balbro.com/heart/beat15.htm
As long as TI exists, there would exist heaven and hell and the endless wheel of infinite reincarnations. But when there is no TI.... there would be no debates, no fights, no dreams. |
|
|
|
Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2009 : 6:08:55 PM
|
Thanks for linking Ed Muzika's site, xsmail108. I had read the exchange between Ed and his Kriya yogi friend before, but had not seen the PDF link.
Here's some of what I got from the dialogue:
We have never not been the absolute, even in the 'journey' through the whole spectrum of consciousness as it appears in and as manifestation. The absolute and the manifestation are one and the same, and the absolute knows itself by the appearance of the manifestation in all its wondrous glory. Knowing this intuitively, beyond words and concepts which only crudely point, is the most natural thing to occur. But the details of our journey distract us.
That's as far as I can see it anyway.
Ed says that we are only ever the absolute if I interpret his words accurately enough:
"When his exploration is complete, he will no longer identify with phenomena, but with the Absolute, which has no existence in the phenomenal world. IT, YOU, are entirely beyond the world."
I believe that although the manifestation is an illusory appearance it must also be the absolute. For me, being at ease with the paradox of this is aided by knowing that there is nothing independent and fixed about the appearance, because it never really exists as separate and permanent things. But also the appearance of manifestation always originates in and as the absolute, and the absolute always appears in and as the manifestation.
(I do believe I am the edit King  )
|
Edited by - Balance on Dec 09 2009 12:21:17 AM |
|
|
|
wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2010 : 1:43:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Didn't read it all, only your quote, T_I, but it was great cause it confirmed what I tried to ask here, but didn't get any answer to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#59993
And T_I, I'm glad you are discovering the Blackness! The Light is sometimes called "the light of consciousness". Consciousness manifests as Light, it moves with the speed of light. That's the Shiva-Shakti dance of Existence, where everything is energy/light/consciousness/I AM-ness. The sense of "I am everything" and "I am nothing - I'm consciousness" simultaneously. Unity consciousness.
Beyond the light and I AM-ness is Pure Awareness. Awareness doesn't move. It's instant. It's beyond both form and non-form (shakti and shiva). It doesn't have an I/eye - that's consciousness! (The I that everybody uses to point to themselves is the same I/eye - it's consciousness.) Beyond consciousness is what enables the dance of the One coin with two sides: shiva-shakti, stillness-movement.
The sucking into that black hole is really fearful to the MIND - the mind cannot go there, as you have discovered. It will definitely die passing that hole. And it will make you feel sick if your body is not purified enough to go there. It's the point BEFORE the big bang. The Source. The Absolute. That. The unnamable, the undescribable.
I'm not quite sure about this. From my understanding (according to the teachings of Aziz Kristof) and limited experience the absolute is energetically located at the hara. As far as the brain stem area, it is said that the zero point of one's consciousness is located in between the pineal and pituitary gland... right around the brain stem area. |
|
|
|
alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2010 : 10:46:20 PM
|
| Real nondualism for yogis involves distinguishing purity and mind from each other. This distinction comes from the Mahasiddhas. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
Advaita for Yogis
