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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 03:16:07 AM
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*taking a seat in the satsang café, sipping a green tea*
Woke up with a paradox in my head, and felt like chatting about it lightly as a breakfast entertainment. Please join in if you feel like it! If you want to tell me to rest my mind and stop thinking about it because I will never solve it with my mind anyway - please join in as well and repeat what I just said but in other words!  *yes, that was irony*
Here's the paradox:
- Life happens spontaneously, effortlessly! In the Flow, in the Now, everything takes care of itself. The witness enjoys the show, right?
- The mind is a bad master, but a great servant. The mind is used as a tool. It's good for planning and taking care of certain stuff.
Hm...  
What in particular would the effortless Flow need the mind for, that it can't unfold spontaneously by itself anyway? THAT needs the mind as a tool? For what?
When in Flow - what is your mind used for, as that serving tool? What would NOT happen by itself if you never used your mind as a tool? Would the bills not be paid? Would the kids not be picked up after school? Would there be no vacuumcleaning or food made? Would there be no vacation because the idea to go to Ibiza next month was never born by the mind and the flight was therefore never booked?
And are we talking about the personal little mind as a servant, or are we talking big here - THAT using the ONE BIG MIND to create Existence? Now, that would be another thing alltogether... 
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 09:28:00 AM
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| Maybe the thought arises in mind and charms a focus on a temporary illusion that there is a separate "I" who exists in its world and takes care of all of the things that actually already happen without any fuss whatsoever? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 11:06:28 AM
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The mind plays god by abstract thought; i.e. imaginary building of what doesn't exist.
The un-enlightened mind works against God (hence the concept of Satan trying to emulate God),
becuase it follows the ego.
The enlightened mind can work WITH God for the betterment of other beings, because it replaces the ego with the inner guru, which is a connection to God. |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 12:10:53 PM
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Our perception of life vs. 'ourself' in that picture, or movie experiencing itself against the movement of life's happenings trying, and non-trying to figure it all out! 
... and the wheels keep turning.
is there difference between doing and perceiving? Isn't perceiving and not-perceiving also ways for guiding the energy and shaping it? Maybe doing and perceiving are words used to express different subleties of the same process... We are used to identify with the external movement (and lack of it), but not maybe that much internally.
Anyway the machine (the matrix) is our teacher  |
Edited by - atena on Oct 25 2009 12:52:31 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 5:01:38 PM
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Hm, interesting Balance! That would be a type of continuous wobbling in and out of misidentification when using the mind as a tool... Could it be so, when sages say the mind will be a servant?
Etherfish - what does the enlightened mind work WITH? Any idea?
atena, something about that moving and perceiving thing is working itself through here..."Maybe doing and perceiving are words used to express different subleties of the same process..." The two sides of the coin somehow. It's both personal and Oneness. It's both no-mind and mind working.
When thoughts are seen as absolutely untrue... and the mind is a servant... is it a servant by using thoughts? Or can there be a mind without thoughts working in some other way? What way would that be? I don't know why I write these questions. I enjoy it for some reason. Those moments I have sort of "been in the Flow" (lacking other words) I don't recall having a servant there... For me, the perception is that it's ALL automatic, unfolding spontaneously. What would the servant do? I don't have a clue! Do you? Anyone having a servant out there?
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 5:22:29 PM
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| When your mind is in accord with its true nature all will take care of itself. When your mind is not all the problems arise. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 5:43:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
When your mind is in accord with its true nature all will take care of itself. When your mind is not all the problems arise.
Nicely put.
Agreed ....
.... Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 5:47:47 PM
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Hi emc
quote:
What would the servant do? I don't have a clue! Do you? Anyone having a servant out there?
LOL......
That was just very.....thanks for that sweet question emc......
No. Have no servant
As it is seen here.......it is all about being available. Open. Non-sticked.
Open mind is heart. Open heart is mind.
Heart serves relentlessly. Mind reflects...that's its expression. Were it not for the bodymind...nothing could be experienced....it is wonderful..mind is.
And when mind is open (not identified with particulars)...... it reflects the serving which is the flow of the open heart. It is now that the true potential of the mind comes into being.....coupled with heart (one with heart)...who knows what can come of wonders......when it is all so wonderous already....
When not still....heart identifies with minds projections. Then calmness is "lost". And the flow is veiled.....it's manifistation is less....intelligent.....?......less alligned.....yes....less intelligent...if you say that intelligence is the sum total of....all capacities......compassion is one such capacity....
Yet all the time.....no doer exists......only service in itself.
No servant....no master
Only Love.
PS So yes....calmness is all
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 5:56:59 PM
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Hi Ösel
quote:
When your mind is in accord with its true nature all will take care of itself. When your mind is not all the problems arise
Thanks for being so clear and simple |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 7:11:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
...
And are we talking about the personal little mind as a servant, or are we talking big here - THAT using the ONE BIG MIND to create Existence? Now, that would be another thing alltogether...
Hi emc :)
Long time no see!~ I've really enjoyed reading your posts through the years. You have given me deep perspectives about the Goddess and I greatly thank you for that. :)
Your topic this time caught my eye because it resonated with something I read from "I AM THAT" by Nisargadatta. It is a fascinating topic for me and I believe this quote will shed some light on your topic. Thank you for bringing it up. Here is the quote:
quote:
Q: Are awareness and love one and the same?
M: Of course. Awareness is dynamic, love is being. Awareness is love in action. By itself the mind can actualise any number of possibilities, but unless they are prompted by love, they are valueless. Love precedes creation. Without it there is only chaos.
Q: Where is the action in awareness?
M: You are so incurably operational! Unless there is movement, restlessness, turmoil, you do not call it action. Chaos is movement for movement's sake. True action does not displace; it transforms. A change of place is mere transportation; a change of heart is action. Just remember, nothing perceivable is real. Activity is not action. Action is hidden, unknown, unknowable. You can only know the fruit.
Q: Is not God the all-doer?
M: Why do you bring in an outer doer? The world recreates itself out of itself. It is an endless process, the transitory begetting the transitory. It is your ego that makes you think that there must be a doer. You create a God to your own Image, however dismal the image. Through the film of your mind you project a world and also a God to give it cause and purpose. It is all imagination -- step out of it.
Q: How difficult it is to see the world as purely mental! The tangible reality of it seems so very convincing.
M: This is the mystery of imagination, that it seems to be so real. You may be celibate or married, a monk or a family man; that is not the point. Are you a slave of your imagination, or are you not? Whatever decision you take, whatever work you do, it will be invariably based on imagination, on assumptions parading as facts.
Q: Here I am sitting in front of you. What part of it is imagination?
M: The whole of it. Even space and time are imagined.
Q: Does it mean that I don't exist?
M: I too do not exist. All existence is imaginary.
Q: Is being too imaginary?
M: Pure being, filling all and beyond all, is not existence which is limited. All limitation is imaginary, only the unlimited is real.
Q: When you look at me, what do you see?
M: I see you imagining yourself to be.
Q: There are many like me. Yet each is different.
M: The totality of all projections is what is called maha-maya, the Great Illusion.
Q: But when you look at yourself, what do you see?
M: It depends how I look. When I look through the mind, I see numberless people. When I look beyond the mind, I see the witness. Beyond the witness there is the infinite intensity of emptiness and silence.
Q: How to deal with people?
M: Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxiety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody.
realise that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters. Human relationship cannot be planned, it is too rich and varied. Just be understanding and compassionate, free of all self seeking.
Q: Surely, I am not the master of what happens. Its slave rather.
M: Be neither master, nor slave. Stand aloof.
Q: Does it imply avoidance of action?
M: You cannot avoid action. It happens, like everything else.
Q: My actions, surely, I can control.
M: Try. You will soon see that you do what you must.
Q: I can act according to my will.
M: You know your will only after you have acted.
Q: I remember my desires, the choices made, the decisions taken and act accordingly.
M: Then your memory decides, not you.
Q: Where do I come in?
M: You make it possible by giving it attention.
Q: Is there no such thing as free will? Am I not free to desire?
M: Oh no, you are compelled to desire. In Hinduism the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage.
Q: I am free to choose my limitations.
M: You must be free first. To be free in the world you must be free of the world. Otherwise your past decides for you and your future. Between what had happened and what must happen you are caught. Call it destiny or karma, but never -- freedom. First return to your true being and then act from the heart of love.
:)
TI |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 9:29:25 PM
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Hi emc & All,
emc - thanks for starting this thread; it's got a pleasantly light "satsang cafe-y" kinda vibe to it; cool.
And, non-coincidentally ... I had just literally taken my first sip of a cup of tea, a moment before I started reading this thread .... ("it's always tea time, somewhere!" ).
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Hm, interesting Balance! That would be a type of continuous wobbling in and out of misidentification when using the mind as a tool... Could it be so, when sages say the mind will be a servant?
It's actually not a matter of misidentification; more one of focus.
Mind is a sense that has been mistaken for a self.
Just as the focus of eyes when reading is different than when taking in a panoramic vista, so "one minute a Buddha, one minute a sentient being", as the Buddhists say.
Nisargadatta sums it up nicely, in I AM THAT:
"My actual experience is not different. It is my evaluation and attitude that differ. I see the same world as you do, but not the same way. There is nothing mysterious about it. Everybody sees the world through the idea he has of himself. As you think yourself to be, so you think the world to be. If you imagine yourself as separate from the world, the world will appear as separate from you and you will experience desire and fear. I do not see the world as separate from me and so there is nothing for me to desire, or fear."
quote:
Etherfish - what does the enlightened mind work WITH? Any idea?
I'm hoping anyone is welcome to comment, here ... and I'd say:
.....No.
*Not* any idea.
Exactly "not any idea".
One of the fundamental illusions is that mind requires discursive thought, and that they (mind and thinking) are somehow synonymous.
Discursive thought actually blocks the power of the pure light of mind ... which is pure intuitive flow.
There's a false idea of a separate "me", and the separate me thinks it needs to think in order to get what it thinks it needs to have, and to keep what it thinks it needs to keep, and so on.
When this dream-idea is released, awareness is consciously whole, and the intuitive flowing of awareness runs (the part of itself colloquially called) the show ... more easily, clearly and completely than thinking mind could ever imagine.
"Life knows what it's doing", as Adyashanti says.
quote:
atena, something about that moving and perceiving thing is working itself through here..."Maybe doing and perceiving are words used to express different subleties of the same process..." The two sides of the coin somehow. It's both personal and Oneness. It's both no-mind and mind working.
Infinite awareness flows-dissolves into objectivity which flows-dissolves into infinite awareness (aka actual subjectivity) .... continuously arising-displaying-dissolving .... out-and-back .... emanation and return .... every moment, every perception, every life ..... infinitely here, eternally now.
As In:
What is the sound of One Heart Beating?
_/\_
quote:
When thoughts are seen as absolutely untrue... and the mind is a servant... is it a servant by using thoughts?
Not so much.
Intuition .... the natural flowing of the wholeness from beyond thought is the true operating power; thinking is more the foam splashing off the tops of waves, dissolving back into the wholeness; not noticed by the wholeness.
Thinking is foam trying to understand foam and waves; intuitive awareness is the ebb and flow of the tides.
quote:
Or can there be a mind without thoughts working in some other way?
Thoughtless awareness is the pinnacle state of every spiritual path; relaxing into thoughtless awareness stops the distortions of the light made by thinking.
Does thinking continue? This varies from body-mind to body-mind; some more, some less.
Thinking may or may not largely subside .... but the release that "makes all the unity" (instead of "makes all the difference" ) is the release of the concept that thinking has value ... and that it has anything to do with you.
Conceptual thinking - obscuring the present with memory and imagination -- is a reaction of the body-mind; it has nothing to do with you.
It's usually helpful, I've found, to take thinking as a signal to let attention return to resting in presence, now.
Thinking and presence are mutually exclusive.
If, for any reason "cognitive calculation" (remembering street directions, or calculating a tip on a restaurant bill, or whatever) is needed, that will emanate as needed, in and from presence.
However, thinking is almost universally an agitation of conceptual memory-reaction that blocks and/or distorts the light of presence-awareness we each-all actually are, now.
There's only the stillness of awareness and its oscillation as consciousness, now.
There is nothing else.
Every memory, every imagination ... every bit of conditioning ... is only a form in consciousness, now.
Who and what we each and all are is One, Entire, Now.
The seven-billion faceted Jewel of Indra, shining as Now ... out of Now-Here!
"Presence so bright, I've gotta wear shades ....!"
Turning to thinking to try to figure this out (and thinking that figuring anything out matters) is literally like turning to a character in a dream at night, and asking that character to tell you about the waking state, and/or awareness (the answer you get could be pretty much anything .... and may or may not have anything to do with reality).
Thinking just isn't the means for the answers to shine through; form alone isn't capable of understanding ... let alone knowing and being ... the infinite ever-present flow of form-nonform that we each and all are ever the flowing of (as) here-now.
quote:
What way would that be?
Pratibha - the pure light of intuition.
When it's noticed-realized that mind is a sense and not a self ... and that awareness can be aware of an infinite span of the spectrum of itself ... ranging from infinite, aware silent void-self ... to man or woman going about his or her day, focusing on the reactions of the body-mind called "thinking" ... and back again ... and any point in-between, any given moment, now ...
... it's noticed-realized that just as there's a natural resting state of hearing ... and a natural resting state of touch; a natural resting state of sight, a natural resting sense of taste, a natural resting sense of smell ...
... so, there is a natural resting sense of mind ....
... and thinking isn't it.
Thinking is the mind equivalent of squinting for your entire life.
Good for headaches, and not much else.
quote:
I don't know why I write these questions. I enjoy it for some reason. Those moments I have sort of "been in the Flow" (lacking other words) I don't recall having a servant there... For me, the perception is that it's ALL automatic, unfolding spontaneously. What would the servant do? I don't have a clue! Do you? Anyone having a servant out there?
Not here.
Automatic unfolding is much more the feel here, too -- as opposed to "having a servant", for sure.
Saying "Mind is a terrible master but a wonderful servant" is much more a figure of speech than a pointer to any kind of actuality, I'd say.
Basically, I just take that phrase to mean that when mind is occluded with conceptual-memory based thinking, and there's imagined-remembered identification with the "thought called me", and all its agitations ... that the "thought called me", and the attention-energy it's given .... invariably suffers.
When attention-awareness is allowed to simply and naturally rest in presence, all that cloud-cover of thought naturally dissipates.
Mind itself is then enjoyed as a consciously creative sense ... in the same way the other senses are:
*Not* as an individual (this is only the case if thoughts like "but I'm still an individual" arise and are indulged, in order to occlude the natural experiencing of the moment) ... but rather .... as simple and complete experiencing; open, flowing .... living unbound.
The awareness of being the wholeness of awareness is always already here.
It's not-known with thought; not even known in experience; what we each and all are is infinitely beyond all that, now.
And yet, is all this, too.
Thinking conceives that it must be "this way or that".
Knowing self doesn't mean thinking never arises; thinking is just known to be a reaction of the body mind; body itches, body scratches; thinking is psychic itching; more thinking is psychic scratching that makes more itching.
Relaxing into natural whole awareness is healing ... "whole-ing" ... "holy-ing" (all three words ... healing/health, whole and holy have the same root ... to be complete).
Itching happens.
Thinking happens.
Nature acting upon nature, as the Bhagavad-Gita says.
When this is known-accepted .... the irritation of the itching ceases, and whatever happens is part of the whatever's-happening wholeness, now.
Thinking mind tries to conceive of how it "will be" ... and that's not even pertinent, now.
Per the Nisargadatta quote above .... it's always already here, now (where else could it be? When?) ... it's just dropping pre-conceptions and the pre-conceived need for new conceptions ...and the ideas that any of this is about ideas.
And I hope the flow of these comments is as enjoyed as the flow of the questions is enjoyed.
This is all so very beautiful.
All we have to do is relax/let go and enjoy.
Peace is what's already here, until thinking occludes it.
The "bad news" ..... we all get exactly *one* chance to do this.
The "good news"?
It's now.
Always.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2009 : 11:50:40 PM
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I'm confused... where did the servant analogy come from
Maybe the servant is directly perceiving, being one with- , and expressing itself in action. |
Edited by - atena on Oct 26 2009 01:40:48 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 02:58:28 AM
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Ah, what a wonderful chat we are having! Continuing the next breakfast! Thanks all for joining in!
Katrine, thank you SO MUCH for being able to read my humour! No servant, huh? Good to know! Thanks for your lovely input!
Kirtanman, as usual, your posts are great and I truly appreciate them... in the beginning , then you lose me, I feel like a cow chewing when reading... so I start jumping around searching for key words instead. But you seem to agree with Katrine - no servant! (Two polarities on the post length scale as shown in this topic: Kirtanman - Ösel! Thank you Ösel for your compact contribution. )
It's just a semantic expression the master/servant, it seems (Atena, the metaphore is widely used by eastern sages, just google it and you will see). It seems more generally meant to point at the body-mind being the current vehicle for consciousness, and as such work as "a tool" or "a servant" for perception.
So far, so good...
Tibetan_Ice, thank you very much! I'm glad to see you back here as well! Always interesting to read about your progress! The quote from Nisargadatta is great. However, suddenly it comes from him too:
quote:
Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxiety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody.
realise that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters.
It's those "technical matters" I'm interested in... the exception!
Kirtanman also writes:
quote:
Thinking and presence are mutually exclusive.
If, for any reason "cognitive calculation" (remembering street directions, or calculating a tip on a restaurant bill, or whatever) is needed, that will emanate as needed, in and from presence.
See??? This is where I sort of stumble... Doesn't sound like Nisargadatta is speaking metaphorically about the mind in a general aspect as above - a body-mind vehicle functioning as a tool for THAT to be THIS in Existence. On the contrary, it sounds very concrete! Don't know if Nisargadatta and Kirtanman speaks of the same type of operations, but I take it to be similar.
Is that cognitive calculation or planning purely technical matters happening OUTSIDE of thought, without thought? There is a little somthing still itching here...
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 04:44:56 AM
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Example of technical matter: tie your shoelaces.
When you where a child you needed to learn and study how
to tie the shoelaces, and you used your mind (and body) to do that.
Then when the mind has learned how to do that
it becomes an automatic thing. Your question then may be:
"Is this happening without thought, outside of thought?"
Well, at least for starting to tie your shoelaces there was
the thought: "Oh, I should/need to tie my laces"
and that thought directed the mind to do what is necessary.
Now, let's see what is still itching you
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 06:25:57 AM
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Kirtanman wrote: "Mind is a sense that has been mistaken for a self."
That's one of the most helpful statements I've come across. Thank you so much |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 10:42:36 AM
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quote:
Thinking is the mind equivalent of squinting for your entire life.
Indeed. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 8:38:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
The quote from Nisargadatta is great. However, suddenly it comes from him too:
quote:
Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxiety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody. realise that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters.
It's those "technical matters" I'm interested in... the exception!
Kirtanman also writes:
quote:
Thinking and presence are mutually exclusive.
If, for any reason "cognitive calculation" (remembering street directions, or calculating a tip on a restaurant bill, or whatever) is needed, that will emanate as needed, in and from presence.
See??? This is where I sort of stumble... Doesn't sound like Nisargadatta is speaking metaphorically about the mind in a general aspect as above - a body-mind vehicle functioning as a tool for THAT to be THIS in Existence. On the contrary, it sounds very concrete! Don't know if Nisargadatta and Kirtanman speaks of the same type of operations, but I take it to be similar.
Is that cognitive calculation or planning purely technical matters happening OUTSIDE of thought, without thought? There is a little somthing still itching here...
Ah, I *think* (figure of speech ) I get what you're "itching" about, now ... and hopefully how to answer.
And yes, by the way ... I'd say Nisargadatta and I are both referring to the same dynamic, which is:
It's not *all* thinking that obscures reality; it's *conceptual* thinking (the reactions of the body-mind, based on stored memories of the fallacious ego-idea known as "me").
Non-conceptual memory-thinking (adding a column of figures, driving a car, logging onto a yoga forum, etc. ) is natural use of mind .... and just as seeing is used as needed, and so is hearing ... so is mind.
Conceptual thinking, including the memory-thoughts we call ego and/or conditioning .... is where suffering (all of it) comes from.
Liberation is liberation from conceptual thinking.
I hope this helps clear things up!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Oct 26 2009 11:01:07 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 01:15:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
However, suddenly it comes from him too:
quote:
Why make plans and what for? Such questions show anxiety. Relationship is a living thing. Be at peace with your inner self and you will be at peace with everybody.
realise that you are not the master of what happens, you cannot control the future except in purely technical matters.
It's those "technical matters" I'm interested in... the exception!
Hi emc
How's this: "Technical matters are the prisms that split light into rainbows. They are the transformers of energy. They are the alchemistic pathways that are part of creation. They are those little universal laws of creation that our little self discovers and uses for enjoyment, entertainment, necessity, sustenance, self agrandizement, destruction and fulfillment. Technical matters are actions performed by dreamers dreaming the dream." :)
:)
TI |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 01:38:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Etherfish - what does the enlightened mind work WITH? Any idea?
It works with God, which is to say the entire universe. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 4:39:18 PM
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Mmm. *enjoying this conversation* Thanks guys, it's great!
Wolfgang, as I see it, you give an example of a learned thing that becomes automatic, as tying the shoe laces. I'm not so sure, though, if it is a thought like "I need to tie my shoes" that starts the action.
Kirtanman you mention the difference between conceptual and "Non-conceptual memory-thinking (adding a column of figures, driving a car, logging onto a yoga forum, etc" I definitely agree that it's the "identified-with" thoughts (conceptual) that cause suffering. But then, the examples you give, and also the example Wolfgang gives... are mainly that kind of stuff that my mind amazingly finds happens automatically when in Flow... I have written many posts on driving a car in particular... My mind freaks when my hand lifts and a big smile takes place in my face and there is just car driving itself, without me having to do anything! My mind can protest wildly when fingers tap automatically and log on to the forum and writes posts it would NEVER write if it was in control! On those occasions, if the mind is not silenced, it goes "What the f... what am I doing? What am I DOING? What's happening?" And life takes care of itself with a huge joy and the mind goes obnoxious.
I guess that's why I have this itching... I've experienced that life takes care of itself ALWAYS! And get bewildered by sages saying "oh, no, you sometimes have to use your mind as a tool to plan certain stuff for the future"...
Beautiful quote, Tibetan. Who is it from? Is it your words?
Haha, Ether! That's the easy way to get around this paradox... Thank you!
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 4:57:18 PM
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I tried to use mind like a hammer once. All it did was give me a headache!
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 6:44:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
...
Beautiful quote, Tibetan. Who is it from? Is it your words?
...
Hi emc :)
Thanks. They are my words..
I think of it like this:
We are the infinite sky.
When the conditions are right, a cloud forms.
The cloud floats over the ocean, sees it's reflection and thinks "I am a cloud".
We are the infinite sky.
A wind arises and blows the cloud towards land.
The cloud thinks, I'm going to float over to that land.
We are the infinite sky.
More moisture arises in the atmosphere, the cloud gets bigger.
The cloud, still not over the land, looks down at it's reflection on the waters and thinks "I've got to go on a diet!".
We are the infinite sky.
Then the sun rises higher in the sky and the cloud, warmed by the heat, dissipates and disappears. Another life has passed.
But, we are the infinite sky.
:)
TI |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 8:29:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I guess that's why I have this itching... I've experienced that life takes care of itself ALWAYS! And get bewildered by sages saying "oh, no, you sometimes have to use your mind as a tool to plan certain stuff for the future"...
Hi emc,
As always .... you're ever actually the answer, now!
And the thinking-me's "freakouts" highlight what several of us (including you) are saying:
Flow is natural.
Conceptual thinking is decidely *not* ... as you've noticed.
All of us have "flowed" with things like driving a car, etc., which highlights how nicely flow actually works.
It's only when we start artificially thinking about stuff that it all goes kerwhacketty (technical term ....).
Because we were conditioned that we *are* the me-thought(s) from before we can speak/think on "our own", via the enslavement to words and concepts helpfully passed on by parents and society (two of ego's more popular concepts .... ) ....
In a nutshell: if something *needs* to be thought about, thinking will happen naturally ..... in exactly the same way that seeing and hearing happen naturally.
There's actually nothing to worry about .... and no one to worry about it.
The concept of partiality *is* the distortion of Maya (Illusion).
Enlightenment is essentially the liberation of an infinite amount of awareness-energy, trapped/frozen in all those conceptual memories.
Yoga liberates this energy all the way into *THIS* right now ....... simple, easy, joyful presence-awareness .... filling this moment .... gently, perfectly, completely.
You know ....
e = mc2
Enlightenment = memory-cancellation-squared
Practices help liberate energy neurobiologically, so body-mind "kicks up" conceptual memory-reactions, less.
Inquiry/presence helps to neutralize the memory-concepts when/after they arise.
(Sitting-type) practices, combined with inquiry-presence ... help to thaw out all that trapped energy .... into the flowing we each and all actually are, now.
No matter how much thought-me kicks and screams ... it's gonna melt into this beautiful peaceful presence we each and all are now, too .... this beautiful loving light melts everything.
And oh, what a relief it is!!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 10:45:02 PM
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quote:
Enlightenment is essentially the liberation of an infinite amount of awareness-energy, trapped/frozen in all those conceptual memories.
Yoga liberates this energy all the way into *THIS* right now ....... simple, easy, joyful presence-awareness .... filling this moment .... gently, perfectly, completely.
I see liberating the mind this way too, freeing up energy trapped in emotional reactions to thoughts. The freed energy intensifies awareness, making the now appear more vivid and ecstatic through the senses. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 02:35:59 AM
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"There's actually nothing to worry about .... and no one to worry about it." /Kirtanman
That's so great to hear! And I'm so glad I'm in this nice chat without any worries and without need to solve the paradox! I'm here for the interesting chat in this beautiful café and I enjoy it fully!
Kirtanman, I managed to read your two latest posts from top to toe! Congratulations! I'm so looking forward to this "natural planning of future concerning purely technical matters" taking place while in Flow! I will report the first time there's an experience of that happening here!
I woke up with a parallell paradox today, that it's also a double sense around the fact that THAT is always unknown, which makes us very humble and we bow in awe of THAT which is presenting this Flow of Life for us every Now in mysterious ways - The Great Mystery. Our hearts are filled with gratefulness and somehow - there's a sense of The Mystery being LARGER than... ________ (me? An ego-identification?) . I think about he "Father"-sensation that Katrine writes about sometimes for example. On the other hand - there's a realization I AM THAT and there's a "knowing" there's nothing else but THAT here (as THIS) - no separation! But the humble attitude remains (at least here), as if it was towards something else, something bigger...? Or do you sense that humble sensation vanishes after a while, when growing into the knowing "I AM THAT"?
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 11:00:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
"There's actually nothing to worry about .... and no one to worry about it." /Kirtanman
That's so great to hear!
And I'm so glad I'm in this nice chat without any worries and without need to solve the paradox! I'm here for the interesting chat in this beautiful café and I enjoy it fully!
I can tell!
quote:
Kirtanman, I managed to read your two latest posts from top to toe! Congratulations! I'm so looking forward to this "natural planning of future concerning purely technical matters" taking place while in Flow! I will report the first time there's an experience of that happening here!
I seem to recall you did report that (driving, etc.) .... but with mind's editorial comments added in, after-the-fact.
So, you do know the experiencing of the flow, yes? .... the editorial comment doesn't change that happy actuality, at all.
Thinking mind can convince us all of some very crazy stuff ..... hence the recommendations to just be flow .... which seems to be as natural for you as for anyone, until the thinking kicks in again.
So it goes for us all, until we finally give up all that thinking as a bad idea.
"Easier said than done", says thinking mind; believe me, I know.
However, continuous intention toward awareness comes from awareness itself; thinking mind finally dissolves into the light it originally is, as well.
Not fighting that process just helps the experiencing of peace to happen more quickly, that's all.
And in the meantime .... hey, we're all greatly enjoying our casual chat, and that's a beautiful thing!
quote:
I woke up with a parallell paradox today, that it's also a double sense around the fact that THAT is always unknown, which makes us very humble and we bow in awe of THAT which is presenting this Flow of Life for us every Now in mysterious ways - The Great Mystery. Our hearts are filled with gratefulness and somehow - there's a sense of The Mystery being LARGER than... ________ (me? An ego-identification?) . I think about he "Father"-sensation that Katrine writes about sometimes for example. On the other hand - there's a realization I AM THAT and there's a "knowing" there's nothing else but THAT here (as THIS) - no separation! But the humble attitude remains (at least here), as if it was towards something else, something bigger...? Or do you sense that humble sensation vanishes after a while, when growing into the knowing "I AM THAT"?
What humble sensation?
(Hey .. this is FUN ...!! )
Okay, so ....... you want my serious (real) answer?
Presuming so, here it is - prefaced by two quotes from Adyashanti:
"The mystery is: only the mystery is."
"I am both the source, and its servant."
My experiencing feels very much like that, truly ..... an apparent paradox from one angle, and a simple sense of harmony with the fact that the one mystery is indeed mysterious.
I often say that I feel "blessed", or "grateful" ... fully knowing that there's not actually anything other .... but rather, from the perspective of the focus of the human one ... it feels that way, and it's a beautiful feeling.
Inversely, there's often expansiveness ... with an attendant sense of being infinitely blessing .... which isn't a non-humility thing .... nor is it a humility thing ... it's actually just a loving thing .... loving is the breathing of the One we each and all are, now.
That loving, that shining, that inherent intention to bless-uplift-love is just the way That (aka This) feels without any mental division or augmentation.
The reason that's even pertinent to mention is that reality is often described in the sacred writings of India as "Satchidananda" .... Reality-Consciousness-Bliss.
Mind thinks of bliss as something positive it experiences .... that the me experiences .... but it's actually a key to the great secret:
Bliss and Blessing are the *same* ...... awareness naturally uplifts/gives; form naturally receives .... hence the well-known analogy of Shiva and Shakti and their eternal union.
Uplifting-giving is nothing without receiving; receiving is nothing without uplifting-giving.
Their Union, however ..... is everything.
And none of us can be anything different than this.
We can only think we are something different than this, until the we dissolves into this that we each and all actually are, now.
Answers truly aren't found in the direction of focus on form (specifically idea form) ... it all really is right here, right now ... as all of us.
If my experiencing seems any different than anyone else's .... the only reason for that is that I finally ascertained/was blessed with ... awareness that it all boils down to letting go of thinking .... or, more accurately not picking up thinking any longer .... that nothing is to be gained from thinking.
Yes, thinking still arises .... but it's largely ignored.
This frees a LOT of energy for presence, which is where the peace has been hiding, the whole time.
And there's really no difference here .... none; difference is a matter of perspective, not actuality.
Simply Put: 1. If I can do it, *anyone* can, and 2. The *reason* this is true, is that we're each and all the underlying awareness; the one awareness .... and when we finally let go into it, and stop looking to dualistic thinking for confirmation of how that's going ..... we're Home.
It can't be otherwise; it can only be This; only what we each and all are, now.
There really is only one.
I hope this is helpful!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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