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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - May 18 2009 : 4:59:59 PM
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this weekend I was eating dinner with a homeless man, Joe. Joe got pistol whipped by three guys and then they proceeded to take his wallet. He told me his story and I had no words of encouragement or hope, or consolation. I just listened to him and let it sit. after a couple minutes I looked at how ungreatful I have been at many moments in life. God has Given me so much, time and time again, my only struggles were not letting go if things, never struggled much for money or a Job, I struggled only because I kept myself isolated and alone. However all that leads me to a greater personal understanding of Neil.
Anyways, I thought of Karma, cause and effect, "what goes around comes around". Joe is humble, joe says thanks and says grace when I feed him. Joe does not take as much food as the others, he is always nice to me, unless I pry too much when asking questions, done that a couple times, LOL. Joe always dresses himself well, keeps his clothes clean. Why is he homeless? he has not shared that with me and that is ok.
This got me thinking about Karma, Joe is as nice as they come yet this "bad" thing happened to him. It changed my thoughts about karma. I believe that for the most part if you do good, good will come back to you. If you do bad, the same. Some may want to tell me of what Joe did in some past life and how he does deserve this, but past lives dont exist, the only things that exist are right now and then maybe the future. I believe the past is gone forever. However I believe that in life there is uncertainty, and it is this uncertainty that makes life worth living, makes life unsure of what will happen. Part of me is scared of accepting that, and that is ok too. A+B=C sometimes, someties it equals P or D or K I believe GOd is that which is above and beyond Karma, for God has not made me pay for all the bad I have done and I am thankful for that.
Just an experience and afterthoughts
my best to all
Brother Neil |
Edited by - AYPforum on May 24 2009 03:23:30 AM |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2009 : 8:14:38 PM
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| Maybe this was not a punishment so much as it was a challenge, or learning experience for him. It sounds like he is living very gracefully with the circumstances he has--in that case, maybe it is to teach *us*? Not necessarily in a literal sense... but it sounds like it can serve that purpose for us. It certainly reminds me to be grateful, and to live life with dignity no matter what (in the children's story A Little Princess, the rich girl says being a princess is being respectful and kind no matter what the circumstances, and continues acting "like a princess" even as a pauper). |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 01:19:38 AM
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I was reading the latest Robin Cook novel and in it one of the characters is asked about the homeless and poor kids in the streets of Mumbai and she responds, disinterestedly, its karma. Thats it; not history, social forces, over population, corrupt political economics, education, etc.
"Karma" is one of those words that I think should be stricken from use, at least in the west. It doesn't really answer anything or lead to action. Its just a nothing, like 'synchronicity' or 'fate'. Can't point to it, can't refute it, can't argue with it. It's like conventional religion, learned fixed inflexible behaviors that no longer mean anything. In place of titan jealous gods who maneuver one's life and ultimately weigh our soul when we drop, we have Newtonian cosmic spiritual laws that dispassionately crush and devour. And to curry favor, we do things so later we can get something good, like a religious see-saw. Who needs it?
Now it could be that "reality" is governed by cosmic karma mathematics of soul maturation, but we don't really know this (we could accept as faith that some dusty book is correct) and so what? We are still responsible for present action. Besides, reality may be much more complex and mysterious. Just look at how weird modern physics is defining the world (multiple universes, quantum spookiness, etc.) action could create multiverses of divergent reactions and we could simultaneous follow each world line. Who knows? I don't. Even in the Rig Veda there is a phrase about even the rishis may not even know.
Note that I'm not critiquing Karma Yoga, just the overuse of the term Karma. Lets leave it for the hollywood set, maybe they can work it into party smalltalk along with trendy Kabbalah, Tantra, and EFT Pranic Healing. javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
Sorry for the Enteric Brain rant. Please delete if this is odious.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 01:48:54 AM
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namaste friends, i might seem dull but i do personally think that there is smthg such as karma bcz everyone is different and some are born with certain advantages or disadvantages..
but the problem is that we lay it all on smthg or smone, on let's say God for example "why did you do this or that and why is this guy sick and dying of hunger."
and the simple truth is that God created certain people like me and you to help others and instead we of helping we are running around chasing riches and spending like crazy on totally unnecessary luxuries.
let's take for example the money spent on pet foods in the west while there are children dying of hunger in Africa and on weaponry in the east while the people are in lack of some of their basic needs..
the simple truth is that we are all one and we should act from that stand point, and this is what should be realized our true identity bcz from their working for others is like working for ourselves.
like the example when Jesus said everything you do to your brothers is like you are doing it to me; like giving alms for the hungry and clothing for the poor.. in my personal opinion the man was talking here from a place of unity and a lot of the suffi mystics as well speak the same.
and our dear old Yogani does so as well, by his saying that there is no true enlightenment but in the enlightenment of everyone...
so let's do good now and at the same time do our practices in order of helping globally at the same time
light and love,
Ananda |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 11:46:24 AM
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Hi Neil....
As you may remember, I spent several months in the not to distant past, working with the homeless/addicted in my city.....this was a HUGE learning experience for me. I learned a lot about karma, a lot about stigma and a lot about humanity in general.
In my opinion, everything happens for a reason, and God doesn't give us challenges we can't handle. I could very well be wrong, but this is my current opinion. Your friend Joe is where he is for a reason. He may not know it, you may not know it, we may NEVER know, but there is a reason he is where he is. Even if it is just to teach YOU a lesson. I worked at the shelter because I wanted to help these people, but what ended up happening I think is that these people helped ME much more then I ever helped them. And I guess that was the way it was meant to be. I agree with Ananada that karma does exist, I just think that we never know in what form that karma will come. Your friend may be paying off some deep karmic debts right now, and because of this his future will be very bright. It may not happen that way at all, who knows..... We can't. I agree that it seems that if you do good, good will revisit itself upon you and vice versa....but time is a funny thing. I don't think karma flows evenly over the course of time. We may get bursts of good karma (or bad) every once in a while, depending on how things are. We may get bursts of great karma despite being a terrible person in the past week. I don't think karma pays much attention to linear time. I DO think it exists though.
On a side note....one of the wierdest things I found working at the shelter was the kinds of issues the homeless had. Obviously there are physical issues like blistered, gangreneous feet, frostbitten extrememties etc etc, but what I found was the biggest cause of suffering amongst these people were relationship issues. I hardly ever had someone complain about anything physical. Almost everyone who was suffering was suffering due to some sort of relationship/friendship issue (not necessarily romantic relationships/friendships). People didn't even really complain about being homeless. It was almost all suffering caused by personal perception and expectations. Pretty much the same among the non-homeless population. Just some food for thought.
Love,
Carson |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 4:44:47 PM
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""On a side note....one of the wierdest things I found working at the shelter was the kinds of issues the homeless had. Obviously there are physical issues like blistered, gangreneous feet, frostbitten extrememties etc etc, but what I found was the biggest cause of suffering amongst these people were relationship issues. I hardly ever had someone complain about anything physical. Almost everyone who was suffering was suffering due to some sort of relationship/friendship issue (not necessarily romantic relationships/friendships). People didn't even really complain about being homeless. It was almost all suffering caused by personal perception and expectations. Pretty much the same among the non-homeless population. Just some food for thought.""
thanks carson |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2009 : 7:01:57 PM
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| Cause and result is a fact. The retributive effects of wrongdoing in this life may not happen to you until your next life. When you continue to experience comfort while doing wrong, then you are burning up your past life good karmic accumulation. Joe's paying for what he's done in past lives. This is the Buddhist view. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2009 : 08:19:34 AM
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Hi Brother Neil and all,
The Buddha once said that it is not possible to understand karma until you are enlightened. So until then, there is little point discussing it. We can hold "views" about it, and hold views about future lives and past lives, and they may be useful, or they may not, to the extent that they inspire us to practice yoga.
In the end, the transcendence of all views will come at the same time as the transcendence of karma... as the two go hand in hand.
Karma isn't really about what happens to people, it's about the way in which they respond to what happens. Three men could be beaten up in separate incidents. The first one might feel anger and resentment about what happened and seek to get his revenge as soon as possible. The second may see the incident as an opportunity to practice love and compassion towards his assailants. The third may see that his attacker needed to learn something, and that he was simply playing a role in a divine dance. He might just quietly thank God that he was able to serve by playing the role, and think nothing more of the incident.
The response of each person is determined more by the level of purification that has already occurred (also called merit) than by anything else. So by practicing yoga every day we are accumulating merit and clearing our own karma, caused by past actions. We are not guaranteeing that we will never be beaten up, but we are helping to make sure that we will respond to all events from a place of love, compassion and divine peace.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on May 24 2009 03:20:22 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2009 : 11:45:53 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2009 : 8:51:31 PM
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The Buddha taught that the only real faith necessary is faith in cause and result. Cause and result is absolutely central to Buddhist teaching.
The Buddha's teachings are summed up by karma, the suffering of samsara and impermanence. These are summed up by emptiness.
There is no buddhism without karma. To understand karma you simply must know cause and result.
Karma and reincarnation are the same teaching. Why do bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? Past life karma.
This is the buddhist view, and it is not a view you transcend. This is why a Buddhist is careful to guard their merit by practicing virtuous deeds with body, speech and mind, and all merit is dedicated to all. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 24 2009 11:02:09 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2009 : 7:13:12 PM
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Hi Konchok,
quote:
This is the buddhist view, and it is not a view you transcend.
All labels are transcended in the end. Ultimately there are no Buddhists, and no Buddhas. Labels are just creations of the mind, and are as fleeting as the morning dew in the light of the rising sun.
In the meantime, performing good deeds leads to good merit, and good karma in this lifetime, and future lifetimes for those who return.
Wishing you all the best on your path.
Christi |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 09:44:45 AM
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| Sure buddhism is a label. I thought you meant karma is a label. Causation, impermanence, void and compassion are physical facts of nature. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 11:18:18 AM
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Hi Konchok,
quote:
Sure buddhism is a label. I thought you meant karma is a label. Causation, impermanence, void and compassion are physical facts of nature.
Yes, I did also mean that.. karma is a label. In reality there is no such thing as karma. It is a useful way for us to see the world, and the relationship between actions and the causes of those actions from this side of the enlightenment equation. But ultimately the idea of karma depends on seperation, not on unity. It relies on the existence of apparent idividuals, and of the layering of name and form (nama rupa) on top of reality. Transcend any of these things (individual/ seperate existence or name and form) and you transcend both time and karma. Karma is then seen for what it is... part of the dream... a label... a creation of the mind.
No more real than the dreamer of the dream.
Christi |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2009 : 10:30:20 PM
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There is a unity of conventional and ultimate reality. If what you say is true, then one could commit a harmful act while one's mind is "transcending karma."
Enlightenment depends on the union of merit and wisdom. If one has the the merit to attain wisdom, it is because of carefully abiding by faith in cause and result.
If one "transcends karma" it is a meditative state, but in one's daily activities, one must abide by strict faith in the truth of karma. Otherwise, one's merit would be exhausted.
For example, telling people that karma is not real and it must be transcended like any other name and form is misleading. There is no act that's not karmic, just like there's no body that's not impermanent.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2009 : 09:55:38 AM
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| Buddhism in a nutshell: Not to do evil, to do whatever is good and to purify the mind. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2009 : 5:49:20 PM
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Hi Konchok,
I am glad you raised those points as it gives us a chance to look at the heart of the Buddha’s teachings which is really the point where an understanding of karma, co-dependent origination, freedom and enlightenment come together.
Co-dependent origination is really a breakdown of the way in which karmic reactions apply to the human experience. For the majority of people, desire colours our experience of the world. Desire to not experience the things that we don’t like is aversion, and desire to experience the things we like is craving. Both forms of desire lead to identification, the creation of the egoic self, and to suffering. This is the way in which action leads to re-action (or karmic repercussions) and the perpetuation of suffering.
When the chain is broken, and the process of delusion is seen through, desire no longer colours our experiences, and the world is seen, as if for the first time, as it really is... crystalline, pure, unfettered, sublime. The karmic chain is broken, and this is the transcendence of the desire mind, which is nirvana. At first this is seen only during formal meditation sittings in states of samadhi. Gradually samadhi becomes spontaneous outside of meditation time, and periods of awakening become longer, and deeper during normal life, even whilst chopping wood and carrying water.
There is no danger that someone who transcends karma will harm others because the very process of transcendence is morally self-regulating. This happens because the experience of coming into the perception of the world as it really is, is characterised by joy and bliss. There is a sublime acceptance of everything as it is, and that acceptance is the first stage of divine love. Someone who responds purely from a state of divine love, and who is at peace with all things, would never harm another being.
Christi
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2009 : 9:56:57 PM
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Praise to the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.
According to what you say, transcendence is automatic and self-regulating. I agree. Then, why talk about it? Samsara and Nirvana come from the same mind.
The teaching is very simple: Every thought is both caused and is a cause.
Abide mindfully by the law of karma and one will automatically transcend. But, one must take refuge.
Ösel Dorje |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 31 2009 12:21:24 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2009 : 07:15:41 AM
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Hi Konchok,
quote:
According to what you say, transcendence is automatic and self-regulating. I agree. Then, why talk about it? Samsara and Nirvana come from the same mind.
Nothing I said implied that transcendence is automatic. It may be, or it may not... the truth is that we don't know. Sharing information about the path helps others to awaken. Taking refuge can be helpful for some as it strengthens resolve, but it is not a path that everybody needs to take.
There are as many roads to the divine as there are people on the earth. 
Wishing you all the best.
Christi |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2009 : 10:03:56 AM
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quote:
There is no danger that someone who transcends karma will harm others because the very process of transcendence is morally self-regulating.
I bow to the glorious Kagyupa masters.
I see "morally self-regulating." Choices are not self-regulating. Karma is self-regulating. Karma is a force and we are all subject to it. From the perspective of meditation, karma is thought and thoughts are emptiness. Every appearance of the mind is karma. An awakened being is naturally virtuous and compassionate, but that being is a result of a long path of struggle against afflictive emotions. Dharma is an inner war with destructive habits.
What I was describing is that transcendence is an automatic byproduct of a teacher, teaching and student's diligent practice. Deep discussions of the nature of ultimate reality serve no purpose. Karma is the most important teaching and is interdependent with the teachings of impermanence, suffering and compassion.
Everyone takes refuge somewhere. You have taken refuge in some teacher(s), teaching(s) and you have implemented those. You didn't invent what you are saying. The inner teacher, wisdom, is developed. Your encounter with teachers and teachings is interdependent cause with your path. There are ordinary teachers and ordinary teachings that meet ordinary students, and there are super-teachers and super-teachings that meet super students, due to karma.
There are as many paths to awakening as there are beings in the myriad worlds. There is only one awakening. The interdependent causes are teacher, teaching and diligent and faithful pupil. Dharma is no Buddhist. The Buddha discovered the Dharma. The Dharma is just the way it is. Teachers either teach according to the Dharma or they don't. Dharma teachings are either complete or incomplete. Even incomplete Dharma teachings are helpful. There's no problem. The problem is ignorance, and that problem never changes.
Ösel Dorje |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 02 2009 10:15:29 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2009 : 10:53:08 AM
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Hi Osel:
Karma may be immutable, but its outcome is not. Outcome is dependent on the state of consciousness of the individual, as is how it is seen -- being "positive" or "negative." For the sage-in-the-oven, all karma is positive. The AYP Bhakti and Karma Yoga book goes into this in some detail. It will be showing up in the online lessons soon too.
War? What war? It is all in the mind. Is cleaning the windshield of the soul a war? If so, now there are two things to do -- clean the windshield and get over the war mentality. Maybe better to clean without making war. Just clean and let go...
I don't have much background in Buddhism, but do know that the idea isn't the thing. The more we get stuck in the idea, the further we are from the thing itself. It is like looking in the mirror and not seeing ourselves. How silly is that?
How many layers of ideology does one need to be "spiritual?"
None. Less is more. None is All.
If I had to pick a Buddhist teacher, it would be Adyashanti. He may be off the beaten track of traditional (idea encumbered) Buddhism, but he has got it right. And he happens to be sitting in your backyard. Whoa!
But ya gotta be ripe for it... You will know when it is time.
The guru is in you.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2009 : 9:37:00 PM
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In terms of Buddhist teachers, Garchen Rinpoche is top notch, a living treasure and great yogi. He says karma is the most important topic of exploration and is more important than talking about concepts. Karma is universally recognized.
War is metaphoric of course. There's no need to conduct textual analysis.
Dharma is where we "take on" our afflictive emotions and our six senses. We "take them on" by relaxing into non-attachment. Attachments are obstacles which we must overcome by letting go.
Karma is a simple topic, yet profound. In the ultimate reality sense, one observes one's thoughts and feelings and recognizes their causal nature, their impermanence and their interdependence with circumstances.
Then those are used as objects of practice. It's not layers. I don't know what your comment about ideology is referring to. I'm not espousing ideology.
The Dharma is not ideology, it is nature of mind. Nature abides without conceptual focus.
Your comment about ripeness is about karma. The body-mind becomes ripe, because the karma ripens.
When one's balance of bad/good ripens in favor of practice, then one will encounter the teacher and the teaching, just like you say.
My karma brought me into the Vajrayana path. Adyashanti encountered the Mahayana path. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 02 2009 10:19:16 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2009 : 11:22:58 PM
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Hi Osel:
With respect, truth is surrendering our deepest questions and longings in stillness, which then blossom from within. Ideology is being satisfied to provide someone else's answers.
Karma does not rule our heart or our will. In this way karma is transformed. Perhaps this is what you are talking about. But is it your own discovery? Until it is, it will be second hand information, no matter how venerable the source.
The greatest compliment we can pay our teacher is not to create a web with their ideas, but to unfold the truth from within ourselves. Then the divine love will be pouring out.
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:12:08 AM
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PS: Not intending to give you a hard time, Osel, but there is hazard in advising others to inquire about karma if it is not based in stillness. In AYP, this is what we call "non-relational self-inquiry," and it can lead to hopelessness and despair. It is easy to fall into victim mode if we get caught in the karma mind trap.
Presumably the prerequisite stillness cultivation aspect is covered on your path, but I see no clear emphasis on that here. For everyone's sake, it is best not to be putting the cart in front of the horse. Karma is transcended and transformed in stillness, not in any other way. The same goes for self-inquiry of any flavor.
And, of course, it is best to speak from our own experience rather than someone else's. That is not only a heads up for you, but for everyone who is utilizing AYP. Two cents worth of our own experience is worth $10 of anyone else's. The two cents of honest sharing on our inner condition is spiritual technique. The $10 on someone else's stuff is ideology. I will take the two cents over the $10 any day.
The guru is in you.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:32:05 AM
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I bow to the Kagyu masters,
Yogani, With respect, perhaps you are only interested in criticizing me.
Call it stillness, silence, emptiness, the witness state or whatever. It doesn't matter. Stillness is en vogue at the moment.
There are thousands of methods to awaken to that. Meditation on karma is one. This thread is about karma.
I'm not going to belabor my own experience. Examination of karma is a way to go from conventional truth to ultimate truth.
The nature of mind illuminates all teachings.
Karma opens into "that." Why? Because all causes result in suffering. The fruit of ignorance is always dissatisfaction. The root of ignorance is not knowing "that."
Knowing "that" ignorance is forever gone. When the root is cut, the branches of attachment don't grow.
Where do you start? Attachments. How do you recognize attachments? Look at your circumstances. How did the circumstances arise? Look at your thoughts and feelings.
When the anger arises, look. What is the cause? When the pleasure arises, look. What is the cause?
The outward grasping is the cause. When looking within, there is nothing to find. Then, letting go happens at the moment. Stay with that. Continuing with "that" is practice.
Looking within "that," conceptual focus ceases. In time, "that" becomes luminous, beyond words.
You won't know if "that" is my experience, unless you see me.
Ösel Dorje |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 03 2009 10:43:14 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:37:32 AM
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| The antidote to hopelessness is compassion for all beings, and a vow to serve. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:41:02 AM
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| PS. I'm not saying mantra is not a valid way. Different strokes for different folks. |
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Karma
