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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:59:09 AM
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Re experience. Self validation is not credible. You cannot validate my experience from writings. You question my experience. I don't question yours. You cited Adyashanti. I cited Garchen Rinpoche. You say outpouring of divine love. I say compassion for all the mother sentient beings.
You say stillness and call it technique. I say karma and you call it ideology.
Karma is not ideology. Causation is not ideology. It is the nature of phenomena. Anyone can look and experience that.
The melieu arises. That is how I see dharma. Everything fits together. Every point is a window.
Karma is one window.
The gurus of my lineage recommend not discussing "that" in favor of discussing the windows from the conventional to the ultimate. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 03 2009 11:11:34 AM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 10:59:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Karma opens into "that." Why? Because all causes result in suffering. The fruit of ignorance is always dissatisfaction. The root of ignorance is not knowing "that."
Knowing "that" ignorance is forever gone. When the root is cut, the branches of attachment don't grow.
Where do you start? Attachments.
If you are trying to kill the tree of ignorance, why not start at the root (Stillness/That) instead of the attachments (branches)? Then you won't have to kill the tree (ignorance) by cutting each branch (attachment) off one by one until you finally get down to the root.
For me, I have found that systematic practices which have cultivated stillness (working on the root) have caused the branches to begin to fall off by themselves, without actually having focused on the attachments at all...the things that used to be attachments just aren't that interesting anymore...take 'em or leave 'em. I clearly have plenty more branches to go, so I plan to just keep hacking at the root until the tree is dead...
Just my humble experience...and I think its only fair to mention that I'm not an arborist...
Wishing you Divine Outpouring Love |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 11:30:35 AM
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Hi Osel:
Thanks for the clarifications. It is fair to request that if you are advising people to analyze their karma, then it should be made clear how it is done without undue risk to the psychology and motivation to practice over the long term.
What you call "letting go" is analogous to what we do in samyama in the AYP system. We do not attempt that until there is some abiding inner silence cultivated in deep meditation over a period of time. It doesn't take long to put in a basic foundation.
This is at the crux of it in comparing inquiry-style meditation with mantra-style meditation.
In inquiry-style meditation, transcendence is achieved through dissolving many objects, the numerous manifestations of karma as you call them. There is nothing wrong with this, assuming the practitioner has the where-with-all to weather the many vagaries of the mind through a long and arduous process. Few do. I see now where the word "war" comes from. 
In mantra-style meditation, one object (the mantra) is dissolved repeatedly for a couple of short sessions per day, whereby abiding inner silence is cultivated. Then that abiding inner silence can be used to transcend everything else with much greater ease (no war). In this case, it may not be called "meditation" anymore, but samyama, or self-inquiry, or devotion to ishta, depending on one's nature and inclination. It doesn't matter what it is called. Stillness, once present, has its own agenda in us, and "letting go" (surrender) in any system will be much easier.
In Buddhist methods, including Adyashanti's style of meditation which is similar to what you describe, and in advaita in general, it is assumed that the average practitioner can navigate the transcendence of many objects through inquiry without inner silence being brought to the abiding state beforehand by other more focused means. This is a huge assumption, and accounts for the small percentage of the population having access to self-realization through Buddhist/advaita methods alone.
One has to somehow become "ripe" beforehand for these methods to work, which is exactly what we talk about in AYP, whereby abiding inner silence is cultivated quickly and easily, and then all the methods of Buddhism, advaita, samyama, self-inquiry, bhakti, service, etc., become much more accessible.
So I don't see an either-or situation here. No competition at all. Only the potential for a better integration and sequencing of existing methods across the board, regardless of tradition, that can enable many more people to have rapid access to the liberation we all seek.
That's all. 
The guru is in you.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 11:36:48 AM
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| PS: Parallax and I cross-posted. He eloquently makes the same point. It is not a competition. Not an either-or. It is an efficient integration of methods coming from all sides for the benefit of all. May applied spiritual science continue to march forward. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 12:17:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Karma opens into "that." Why? Because all causes result in suffering. The fruit of ignorance is always dissatisfaction. The root of ignorance is not knowing "that."
Knowing "that" ignorance is forever gone. When the root is cut, the branches of attachment don't grow.
Where do you start? Attachments.
If you are trying to kill the tree of ignorance, why not start at the root (Stillness/That) instead of the attachments (branches)? Then you won't have to kill the tree (ignorance) by cutting each branch (attachment) off one by one until you finally get down to the root.
For me, I have found that systematic practices which have cultivated stillness (working on the root) have caused the branches to begin to fall off by themselves, without actually having focused on the attachments at all...the things that used to be attachments just aren't that interesting anymore...take 'em or leave 'em. I clearly have plenty more branches to go, so I plan to just keep hacking at the root until the tree is dead...
Just my humble experience...and I think its only fair to mention that I'm not an arborist...
Wishing you Divine Outpouring Love
I really agree with you. Cut the root means recognize "that." Once "that" is recognized the branches disappear. Recognize "that" at the moment a branch appears is hacking at the root.
There are different starting points for different practitioners. I'm not criticizing, only trying to illuminate karma as starting point. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 03 2009 12:24:23 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 12:28:18 PM
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| thk you Parallax. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 12:33:06 PM
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FYI, Vajrayana is the path of many methods. We also "ripen" practitioners with mantra, prostrations, deity (ishta) visualization, yogas, and many more. We say accumulate merit.
Wouldn't you agree that once the practitioner has "abiding inner silence" they can drop the mantra and just "abide"?
Then, the remnant karmic traces rise to the surface. When they arise, see them. Then, turn to "that" and abide. Abiding, the karmic traces evaporate (are transcended). The night of his enlightenment, the Buddha had to confront the armies of Mara, lusty devis, and the like.
Karma is the relevant issue whether one is ripening or transcending.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that a small percentage of the population has access to self-realization with buddhist methods. Rather, few are "ripe," and genuine masters are hard to find.
Even relatively few will practice mantra, which is also very high level. Anyone can access it though. One has to make the move. |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 12:59:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
thk you Parallax.
And thank YOU for all of your wonderful posts; have really enjoyed watching your unfolding 
Much love to you my Beirut Brother
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 1:38:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Wouldn't you agree that once the practitioner has "abiding inner silence" they can drop the mantra and just "abide"?
Hi Osel:
No, I would not agree, because this throws out the benefits of the advancing effects of mantra meditation, which have many subtle nuances. The cultivation of abiding inner silence is not a one time event. It is an endless continuum that is dependent on the ongoing use of a procedure. The expansion of abiding inner silence supports powerful additional methods of practice. So why on earth remove that support that clearly works?
We can "abide" for 23.33 hours per day, doing or not doing whatever we choose. Why throw out the 40 minutes (2 x 20) of structured practice that is forever increasing our presence as That? It makes no sense, even for someone who has been using mantra meditation for many years.
This does not preclude us from doing anything else in spiritual practice, coming from any source, assuming we use good common sense and are prudent in self-pacing. Besides the many additional methods within yoga, there is much in Buddhism (and other systems) that may be useful to one who has become the witness. The abiding witness is only the first stage after all.
The guru is in you.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 2:14:48 PM
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The guru in me is not reciting a mantra at the moment. Abiding inner silence is just the first stage. That is true. The second stage doesn't involve a mantra or maybe it does to you. Mantra is a path. Paths have their purpose. I don't care to argue with you if we cannot agree on whether one can eventually drop a mantra. You have your path and it is a good path. There are teachings leading to enlightenment that never deal with a mantra. I didn't think you would assert the "my way is the right way" argument, but you did.
I'm going to drift along my wave for a while. Enjoy.
Ösel Dorje |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jun 03 2009 2:21:40 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 2:38:26 PM
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Hi Osel:
Whatever cultivates abiding inner silence is good, mantra or no mantra.
But let's face it, multi-object self-inquiry is not the best place for most people to start. If it were, Eckhart Tolle would have millions of enlightened followers. He doesn't, though he is inspiring many on their path. No doubt about that. But how to get from inspiration to realization? That is the question.
Daily scheduled sit-down meditation with a specific procedure is a much better place to begin cultivating inner silence (abiding witness). Then the role of karma can be more easily known. There are a variety of styles of sit-down meditation found in all the traditions. Most people with some motivation can handle sit-down meditation if the instructions are simple, and the results noticeable.
Everything I am saying here is with the average seeking person in mind. Those who are already "ripe" are going to fall off the tree of illusion one way or another. It is everyone else that concerns me. The simpler we can make it, the better.
The guru is in you.
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2009 : 9:36:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Wouldn't you agree that once the practitioner has "abiding inner silence" they can drop the mantra and just "abide"?
Hi Osel:
No, I would not agree, because this throws out the benefits of the advancing effects of mantra meditation, which have many subtle nuances. The cultivation of abiding inner silence is not a one time event. It is an endless continuum that is dependent on the ongoing use of a procedure. The expansion of abiding inner silence supports powerful additional methods of practice. So why on earth remove that support that clearly works?
We can "abide" for 23.33 hours per day, doing or not doing whatever we choose. Why throw out the 40 minutes (2 x 20) of structured practice that is forever increasing our presence as That? It makes no sense, even for someone who has been using mantra meditation for many years.
This does not preclude us from doing anything else in spiritual practice, coming from any source, assuming we use good common sense and are prudent in self-pacing. Besides the many additional methods within yoga, there is much in Buddhism (and other systems) that may be useful to one who has become the witness. The abiding witness is only the first stage after all.
The guru is in you.
my take
for some it may even be beneficial to be more sporatic. Why? if we see the mantra as necessary then we may become too dependent on the mantra, too obsessed with it. Kind of like a coffee fix everyday. We may become scared of being without the mantra, and think, "uh oh, did not do meditation today for long enough" or something like that. We are what we already are.
Am i saying meditation is bad, nope
it is great for some people, maybe even harmful for others, some are best with a lot, some a little
I believe the most important part is for the individual person to have the courage to believe that the guru is in them as yogani says
my best to all
be happy and well
brother Neil
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 08:39:52 AM
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Hi Neil,Osel,Yogani And All,
I feel most people need the/a mantra( though my hunch is that most here don't doubt this that much), unless they come to meditation in an already pretty enlightened and pure state, so that rules out a great deal of people( like vast swathes of foklk on Times Square say on a busy day). I certainly needed a/ the mantra. If i was sitting like a zen monk ,mybones will still ache and those litte l zen parables rattling about in my head would still be interefering with my search for stillnes and quiet in the mind.
I think most people need the powerful tools yogani has provede but you are right,\Osel, and enlightenend enough yourself to question evrything and i really do like your emphasis on the role of karma in oureveryday lives and how it permeates our meditation, is the deeper causlity arissing underenath of it, if that makes any sense. Maybe alittle.
I suspect the mantra maybe a tool that may potentially allow us to give up the/a mantra once we are "switched on" with a good vibe 24/7. Most people are stuck in a deep pattern of grooves,endlessly repeating similar patterns of suffering borne our of illusions in their mind,and need whatever levers they can get . i am one of them,a mere pathetic mortal and am still tryin to live the reality of a good vibration,even if i just get glimpses of it,but through it,an appreciation of the realm of the infinite & the possible. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jun 04 2009 09:04:45 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2009 : 09:31:03 AM
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What is karma observation really? Mindfulness. Being aware. Staying awake and observing the mind. Taking note of it without judging. It is practice that comes up constantly. Also, it is self acceptance, self forgiveness, because you cannot observe passively while judging your condition. Slowly, one relaxes and may observe mind's nature. What is that? Thoughts, feelings, arise like stormy clouds, and subside, dissolve into the sky of mind's true nature which is unchanging, not impermanent. It is something you can do after sitting meditation, during walking or working, etc., the tantra the continuum of nature, the dharma.
Ösel Dorje |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2009 : 08:05:14 AM
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Hi Konchok,
quote:
Everyone takes refuge somewhere. You have taken refuge in some teacher(s), teaching(s) and you have implemented those. You didn't invent what you are saying. The inner teacher, wisdom, is developed. Your encounter with teachers and teachings is interdependent cause with your path.
Just to clarify... I didn’t say that I did not take refuge in anything as part of my path. As a Buddhist, I often take formal refuge in the triple jem. I said that it is not necessary for everyone. Teachers, teachings, refuges, are optional on the path to freedom.
quote:
For example, telling people that karma is not real and it must be transcended like any other name and form is misleading.
And just to clarify again... I didn’t say that karma was not real. Whilst we are suffering the effects of past karma, it is very real for us, just as when we are fighting the inner war with our own mind... it is very real for us too.
Ultimately, of course... there was never any war. We made it up.
Enjoy the wave.
Christi
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