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Anthem
1608 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 17 2009 : 12:28:49 PM
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One thing that troubles me about some long term yoga practitioners is the apparent disconnect between their claimed spiritual condition and their conduct in the world.
From my perspective, the way a person conducts themselves in terms of behaviour on a daily basis, in other words their actions into the world, speaks most accurately to their internal spiritual condition. Yet I observe often with many gurus, that they speak of their spiritual symptoms and yet clearly struggle with some of the basic tenants of the eightfold path as put forth by the Buddha. Am I observing this incorrectly?
I truly hope there is a deep correlation between spiritual experiences and right action into the world. I believe that right action is the most important part of the equation here as it permeates everything going forward. |
Edited by - Anthem on Jan 18 2009 4:42:49 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2009 : 12:48:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I truly hope there is a deep correlation between spiritual experiences and right action into the world. I believe that right action is the most important part of the equation here as it permeates everything going forward.
What is your definition of right action Andrew?
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2009 : 4:28:13 PM
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In this regard I would be referring to non-violent communication or not acting or reacting from ignorance with anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc. From my perspective, the ultimate manifestation of life in the human body is about acting in the world from a place of love, compassion and understanding. I am starting to suspect that doing particular breathing exercises or practices over many years brings about some of the physical "enlightenment symptoms" pre-maturely for some people without the corresponding conduct based in love and understanding. It appears to be an acceleration in some of these regards without the corresponding balanced growth in other areas like day-to-day behaviour, open-mindedness, etc.
There appear to be numerous examples of gurus who have years of practice under their belts and fairly profound realizations of some symptoms like ecstasy, bliss or unity consciousness, but don't seem to exemplify the yamas and niyamas. |
Edited by - Anthem on Jan 18 2009 11:09:05 AM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2009 : 6:02:26 PM
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| Anthem, I agree. Nevertheless, you can never know how the experience is for the person, whether it is with attachment and identification or without it. It probably comes down to how far one's taken the self-inquiry process in the later stages. If it is worked on, then the obstructions that prevent effective communication (for example) will be dissolved. But it's really not possible to judge anyone's journey. The process has it's own course and nobody can know whether any advanced stages of unity will manifest in a person's life or not. You can only provide assistance and hope for the best :) |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2009 : 8:24:54 PM
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True and good point Tadeas, we can't know the internal experience of a person, we can only know for ourselves. I think that here at AYP we would be better served by using measures on conduct and action in the world to assess our own spiritual condition and that of others, rather than the typical enlightenment milestones that seem so entrenched in yoga culture. Unity consciousness, ecstasy, bliss etc. aren't the entire picture or so it seems, one doesn't need to look very far to see that. I recall Yogani talking about a guru he spent time with who was exceptionally blissful yet through a "hissy-fit" if someone moved his salt shaker or something to that effect.
I haven't thought it out to any degree, but from my perspective a better way to measure our own condition and the condition of others in really the only meaningful way, would be noting some distinct progressions from the extremes of action born of violence and destructive behavior to actions based in love, compassion, understanding until the latter is established 24/7. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 06:42:31 AM
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Hi Andrew
I have been struggling with this one myself recently. Dave(riptiz) spoke about this yesterday as follows:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4639#43666
Hi,
I personally feel that no practices are enough on their own without embracing the yamas and niyamas.Interaction with others will govern your progress and test you constantly.When we find purification symptoms affecting our moods we have to be on guard how we treat others and try to ignore their negative interactions with us.It's not easy but in my experience it gives you progress.
Treat others how we wish to be treated and try to ignore their weaknesses when they don't treat you in the same way.Even when one fails to observe these principles, realising that we have slipped will still give you progress.It's when we don't realise we have slipped that we aren't making progress.
L&L
Dave
For me its been a process of unlearning the Catholic conditioning imposed on me by my surroundings to date. So I have a natural aversion to rules like the yamas and niyamas. In Buddhism there are the 5 precepts and in the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition he calls them the 5 mindfulness trainings, he also developed the 14 mindfulness trainings as a further step.
The idea being that in taking on these trainings one reads them at least once every two weeks along with the practice of meditation and mindfulness. So it becomes like samyama, the more inner silence that is developed the more the trainings penetrate in a real way. It is like the old conditioned habits that even the very advanced practitioner may have, are constantly getting looked at and challenged by contemplating the mindfulness trainings or whatever guidlines one wishes to embrace.
Being awakened to non-duality is just another stepping stone, it then has to be taken into society and we still have all our conditioning to work through, it may be from a different perspective but nevertheless the work and integration still has to be done.
Personally I like the 14 mindfulness trainings, they don't say you should do anything, they say "be aware of the suffering caused by..."
to give you a flavour the first one is:
"Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, I am determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist teachings are guiding means to help me learn to look deeply and to develop my understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill or die for."
Of course the whole problem is - who do you believe when it comes to rules for ourselves. In contemplating these things I suppose one always has to look deeply and not accept anything on face value. Perhaps make our own rules when we are in a particularly balanced state and see how they compare to the yamas and niyamas for instance.
In fact that's a good idea - I think I will have a go at that myself.
I think also that NVC (non-violent communication) offers a good way of working with it. One advantage of this system is that Mitchell came at this approach purely from his observations and with no spiritual background or baggage in that regard. It was developed simply from what worked and what didn't work - very scientific.
enough rambling |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 4:42:49 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 12:57:12 AM
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Through my latest experiences I have to admit I am beginning to drop this idea. It's only an idea that someone realized would suddenly be loving and nice to everybody. On the contrary... it's the ordinary human life that goes on, including everything. THIS! It's only THIS! You will see your body continue to act as normal. And if you were not a very nice person when the shift comes... you will continue for a while - perhaps for a life time - to behave as usual, but being very aware that the YOU you thought were doing it is gone.
See Yogani's take on this: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4743#40738
The old ancient scriptures talks about a guy who was a soldier and became realized. He was confused and asked the God (Krishna? I don't know the source, just heard this by someone): What now? And Krishna said: You are a soldier in this lifetime. Go do what you're doing.
It's is a lie that Stillness does not kill. Since Death is actually Life, it's a perfectly necessary part of this play. Who's sending all the diseases and nature catastrophes? Stillness in action. Stillness kills, and keeps the show running.
What is the pain we inflict upon eachother with "unethical behaviour"? It's only evolution. Without the pain we would not grow. Do you wish now that some of your pain had not happened? Haven't ALL small tyrants you have met on your path served you very, very well??? I know mine have!
Just talked about this with a friend yesterday. Knowing this, it's easier to think:
"What if ALL people around me actually already are realized beings, right NOW, and I'm the last one on Earth to realize. They are ALL here to help me on my path of awakening by doing what they are doing. They are big loving hearts, seeing the show going on, and are just waiting for me to join them!" 
See here for Yogani's next take on it:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=4743#40743 |
Edited by - emc on Jan 19 2009 01:08:51 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 08:23:38 AM
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I agree. We always retain the freedom of choice. Knowing the right thing to do doesn't make us do it. One reason for not putting anyone on a pedestal.
It's funny how people imagine enlightenment making them into some kind of holy person who does no wrong. You can choose to do the right thing today; no need to wait. Of course there will always be disagreement as to what is right because we can't always know what is best for someone else. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 09:12:23 AM
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quote:
Through my latest experiences I have to admit I am beginning to drop this idea. It's only an idea that someone realized would suddenly be loving and nice to everybody.
Who said anything about realized people being nice to everybody or holy?
There actions will however be born from love, even if they are hard to understand from the outside and may not appear that way. It is after all, the way life handles us, an act of love to deliver the pain we need to grow in the moment. It was an act of love for Clint Eastwood to kill his boxing student in Million Dollar Baby, but from other eyes it may not have appeared that way. You do what you have to do in the moment, action based in love and compassion instead of born from ignorance and related emotional reactions. Deep down in our hearts we can observe where the action is born.
quote:
Without the pain we would not grow.
Couldn't agree more. |
Edited by - Anthem on Jan 19 2009 10:49:12 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 11:15:22 AM
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Possibly a good measure is how one's actions will pan out if you live in a community of reasonably aware people.
The notion of inflicting pain out of love is very valid but it is quite a skillful thing if it to be done with compassion, and with some concern for the harmony of the community.
It can be quite a "cop out" and a trap, to write off one's pain infliction on someone as "doing them a favour", when in fact it has been done out of malice or anger and not out of true love or compassion.
For me a set of good rules which have been put together for the hormonious welfare of both people and the environment, whether one is enlightened or not, can only help.
How one takes these in is another matter. As has been said many times on the forum, it is necessary to develop inner silence to make the integration relational.
If we have a blind spot for instance, contemplating a good set of rules is quite likely to bring it before us for consideration. Perhaps we won't see it at first and might think that rule is ridiculous, but as inner silence develops we begin to see. Without the rules we would likely continue to have that blind spot.
One simple rule of NVC is "don't speak out of anger", first take the anger and process it into something else and speak when we are back in touch with ourselves. This is a very useful rule to know, it makes a lot of sense, but when in a situation where we are angry it can get lost unless we have visited and considered that rule many times. It eventually becomes habit and part of our nature.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 12:39:06 PM
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Hi All:
Interesting discussion.
Ruiz's "Four Agreements" are useful guidelines for conduct too.
However, having such guidelines for conduct is not the whole answer. If it were, the world would be a much better place, because the spiritual traditions and religions have had plenty of guidelines for conduct in place for centuries.
Since codes of conduct (yama and niyama) are already part of many spiritual traditions, they alone having limited effect on the course of human spiritual evolution, then we have to ask ourselves what might be missing.
I believe the lack of fully-integrated systems of spiritual practice is the greatest shortcoming in the traditions, not necessarily a lack of guidelines for conduct. Ironically, it seems most traditions reach a limit in the scope of spiritual practices they are able to offer because they become preoccupied with matters of conduct. In that sense, too much attention on yama/niyama can be a pitfall, like the many other pitfalls of the mind.
With many of the later practices we have presented in AYP (samyama, self-inquiry, karma yoga, etc.), having them become "relational in stillness" is the key. This is the direction we want to go in approaching yama/niyama -- moving steadily toward "stillness in action" in all aspects of our practice and our life. This places sitting practices, especially meditation and pranayama, at the center. From such a foundation in practice, all the rest can flower naturally, as these discussions indicate.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 2:14:49 PM
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Anthem wrote: quote:
...some distinct progressions from the extremes of action born of violence and destructive behavior to actions based in love, compassion, understanding...
- - -
You do what you have to do in the moment, action based in love and compassion instead of born from ignorance and related emotional reactions. Deep down in our hearts we can observe where the action is born.
I'm sorry, Anthem, but I interpreted this as if there's a difference we can notice in the moving towards a more kind and nice way to behave. Perhaps a quick conclusion. Do you mean that we could "know in our hearts" whether a parent who angrily yells at his child would do that from a place of Love or emotional unawareness? I don't think so, not even deep down in our hearts, because even if it would be those unaware, emotional actions that are seemingly destructive... are the very same love! That is also stillness in action, just a little distorted with mind interference. The Love loves the Unaware mind distortions! It loves the violence and the destruction. It created it itself for God's sake! (LOL!) It's only our interpretations that says destructiveness from mind is any less than the "acts of love and compassion", whatever that is in your picture. I just take it they are not of equal value and that "progressing" towards love is desirable in your view from your quotes above, but I might be wrong... |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 2:21:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
However, having such guidelines for conduct is not the whole answer.
Hi Yogani,
I am not referring to having guidelines for conduct, I agree with you about that having limited effect. Yoga has long used enlightenment symptoms as a measure for a person's level of realization. The followers of a guru often look to said reports to validate a teacher's level of realization. Some teachers themselves view such symptoms or certain realizations to meaure their own progress and make claims of enlightenment often pre-maturely as some have later admitted.
I am suggesting that the roots of the action that people take (verbal, physical) are a more accurate and more meaningful measures of a person's inner condition and spiritual progress. If there are still actions based in ignorance which are reactions to emotions such as anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc., then there is still work to be done despite levels of ecstasy, bliss or understanding of the unity of all things. Action born from love, compassion and understanding being the other end of the spectrum and only the one acting can know if their actions truly stem from these sources even if they appear otherwise from the outside.
Yoga holds inner energy development, ecstasy, bliss and unity consciousness as sign-posts and no doubt there are strong correlations to overall inner condition but these can be very misleading when certain practices accelerate certain experiences. I think we have seen this often and from the experiencer's perspective they can be misleading too, how much, how often etc., I must be enlightened, I had bliss, I saw the unity of it all etc. From my perspective it appears to me the root of action doesn't lie and is a more accurate measure.
Of course all of the measures rely on self-truth but yoga practitioners would be better served in many ways from my perspective focusing on the degree to which they act in the world from a place of love, understanding and true service.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 2:36:33 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Do you mean that we could "know in our hearts" whether a parent who angrily yells at his child would do that from a place of Love or emotional unawareness?
Not really trying to join the conversation here just wanted to point out that ANY angry (or annoyed/frustrated as these emotions only differ in degrees) reaction is not a loving reaction...Any discipline or "steering" done by a parent, employer, anyone, that is done with anger or anything other then pure love for the person's happiness is a reaction not made in silence and therefor cannot come from a place of Real Love. When we get angry it is because an expectation we have had is not met and we have no right to "expect" anything from anyone. Just my 2 cents.
Love,
Carson
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 3:30:57 PM
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We all have rules and guidlines for conduct whether we like it or not. We live in a world of boundries and people and dangerous things. Our whole life in the world of duality is a matrix of rules and guidlines, often so automatic we don't think of them as such.
We can talk about looking at things from the perspective of non-duality and discard everything, but unless we also include duality we are only fooling ourselves, in my opinion.
In Buddhism they talk of the Two Truths. These are the truth of the relative or historical dimension and the truth of the ultimate or absolute - basically duality and non-duality. It is when the two are embraced and experienced together and integrated that a person can be balanced.
Rules and guidlines for conduct are clearly within the realm of duality and have nothing to do with non-duality. If we discuss rules from a perspective of non-duality we are missing the point.
It's about the practical application of spirituality within the boundries of time space, and I think that is what you are referring to Andrew.
As Yogani often says, without inner silence these things have limited effect and the development of inner silence through deep meditation etc. will provide the balance between the Two Truths.
So I would propose that a set of guidlines which are used in conjunction with inner silence becomes samyama and might accelerate ones navigation through the complex maize of the boundries of duality.
Just a suggestion
Rule 1 - there are no rules
Rule 2 - when you decide to put your hand in the fire, you make a rule
Don't put my hand in the fire.
Rule 3 - Wear clothes in public, or you will get put in prison.
Rule 4 - Don't chop your head off, because it will make a mess on the carpet.
Rule 5 - Treat others like you would like to be treated yourself, because if you do you will be happier.
Rule 6 - Don't think badly of anyone because this is like bashing yourself over the head with a hammer.
etc etc.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 3:33:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I am suggesting that the roots of the action that people take (verbal, physical) are a more accurate and more meaningful measures of a person's inner condition and spiritual progress. If there are still actions based in ignorance which are reactions to emotions such as anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc., then there is still work to be done despite levels of ecstasy, bliss or understanding of the unity of all things. Action born from love, compassion and understanding being the other end of the spectrum and only the one acting can know if their actions truly stem from these sources even if they appear otherwise from the outside.
Yoga holds inner energy development, ecstasy, bliss and unity consciousness as sign-posts and no doubt there are strong correlations to overall inner condition but these can be very misleading when certain practices accelerate certain experiences. I think we have seen this often and from the experiencer's perspective they can be misleading too, how much, how often etc., I must be enlightened, I had bliss, I saw the unity of it all etc. From my perspective it appears to me the root of action doesn't lie and is a more accurate measure.
Of course all of the measures rely on self-truth but yoga practitioners would be better served in many ways from my perspective focusing on the degree to which they act in the world from a place of love, understanding and true service.
Hi Anthem:
No disagreement there. However, as you point out, this kind of measurement is ultimately internal. While our external behavior may seem to be improving, the real dynamic is occurring inside. Perhaps, in time, science will develop objective ways for measuring this.
Meanwhile, the further we go in cultivating inner silence and ecstatic conductivity/radiance, the more acute our awareness of evolutionary and non-evolutionary action becomes, and our actions are affected accordingly. When our actions are in disharmony, we will feel the pain of it to the end of the earth. And when our actions are in harmony, we will feel the joy far out into the cosmic regions. So our choices become relatively easy, and codes of conduct may become somewhat incidental, but not necessarily to be ignored.
Because of the internal dynamics, it is difficult to measure external acts as being evolutionary or non-evolutionary. Nevertheless, there must be some measurement by someone to limit the ignorant abuses that happen in this world. That is what the law is for.
As for the internal fireworks and other experiences associated with the purification and opening of spiritual development, we have been calling these things "scenery" for a long time around here, haven't we? We acknowledge such experiences, and enjoy them if they come, but...
Spiritual development is about improving the quality of everyday living. Those who think it is a thrill ride will get over it eventually. The more effective the system of practices we are using, the sooner we will get over the thrill ride aspect of it, which is not a prerequisite for enlightenment. Going off on tangents tends to delay the process, as many here know.
We will know we are making progress as we become less concerned about our own spiritual condition, and more concerned about helping others. That's the bottom line.
The guru is in you.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2009 : 04:02:47 AM
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The Four Agreements
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....C_ID=466#466
1. BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD - Speak with integrity. Say what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
2. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
3. DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.
4. ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgement, self-abuse, and regret.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guess I have a problem with the second of these agreements
2. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
Maybe this is one of the core issues in this discussion.
And whilst it is completely true in one sense, it is very untrue in another, in my view.
It also shows the danger in making rules or agreements or whatever you want to call them. It implies we can do anything we want and accept no personal responsability for the outcome with others. For me that flies in the face of what I understand as compassion.
It's only saving grace is that when bundled along with the other agreements, so that the four of them are taken into consideration as a unit, it doesn't look so bad.
I know I'm out on a limb here from the status quo, but so be it |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2009 : 09:26:01 AM
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Hi Louis,
I'm not too worried about establishing codes of conduct. I do love the 4 Agreements by Ruiz and I think the Noble 8 Fold Path and yoga's yamas and niyamas probably cover most of what is needed. I prefer to see improving conduct spring from stillness.
The primary points I am trying to make are that for those of us on the spiritual path, we would be better served by using the amount or the frequency in which our actions in the world are initiated from a source of unconditional love, compassion and understanding and manifest in a form of service rather than from a source of ignorance manifesting as reactions to anger, hate, greed, fear, jealousy, sadness, lust etc. Our emotions don't lie, we feel the way we feel and I love how Yogani puts it above:
quote:
When our actions are in disharmony, we will feel the pain of it to the end of the earth. And when our actions are in harmony, we will feel the joy far out into the cosmic regions. So our choices become relatively easy,
I have certainly noticed this dynamic evolving internally in this direction and it would make a an excellent milestone if we are going to use them.
I regard these as better measures of our internal spiritual condition than some of the enlightenment symptoms traditionally used in yoga culture which can be very misleading for some of the reasons I cited above. In general I see it as being far more meaningful and beneficial for spiritual practitioners to focus on improving their conduct and actions in the world than on achieving said enlightenment milestones for themselves. One is a selfish pursuit, that only serves to perpetuate the "I" the other is giving it all away and benefits the whole.
I think yoga could take a page out of traditional Buddhism here and I think AYP is way ahead of the curve in this regard too. We are practice oriented here and scenery that comes up as Yogani mentions above, is seen as just that and then we go back and practice. Having enlightenment milestones on the horizon, and/ or any siddhis can actually cause blocks for practitioners as they wonder why their internal reality doesn't match their expectations derived from what they have heard from others or read about. Enlightenment milestones reported in some practitioners and not experienced by others can be discouraging for people on the path or create jealousy etc. By focusing on our own conduct and our actions in the world as the important part of the equation, we are doing ourselves a lot more good and not to mention the world around us. It becomes less about what "I" is achieving and more about what we can do for others and make our small part of the world (meaning for everyone we interact with) a more enjoyable place to be.
Here at AYP, so far we have milestones for silence, ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness, out-pouring divine love (this one does definitely cover action) and in the self-inquiry book there are some for the evolution of the mind. I think only a small percentage of spiritual seekers can relate to many of these. I would love to see some for the evolution of behavior, emotion and actions in the world that lead up to the outpouring of divine love. I think these touch every one of us. We do talk about them often, how emotional turmoil becomes shorter and shorter, how our personal relationships improve, overall increasing happiness, increased service to others, more unconditional love and understanding etc. As we improve ourselves in these areas the world becomes a better place and it is a more selfless pursuit. |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2009 : 11:08:47 AM
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Hi Anthem and All:
It is important to acknowledge all experiences that may come up along the path, so there can be understanding of them, and so they can be used to fuel bhakti for daily practice. All experiences are valid for the person who is having them. If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming. Whatever experiences we are having today will suffice to help us stay motivated on our path. The flashy experiences of purification and opening are as valid as any other. We can acknowledge them, enjoy them, and move on.
Along the way on the path of daily practices, a gradual shift occurs from small self (me) to big Self (we), and our motivations in action naturally shift to a service mode. The indicators for this latter stage are covered in the AYP Bhakti and Karma Yoga book.
The thing is, every stage has its own signature, its own milestones, its own validity, and it is not appropriate to measure one stage with another stage's milestones. This is the same issue we run into when "enlightened" teachers tell us that we should be seeing the world as non-dual now rather than later. If the milestones are not geared to the experience of the practitioner, then the teaching will be lacking in that time and place, creating expectations that are not reasonable or practical. We should be careful about this.
So, I don't think we can come up with a single set of criteria that can be applied to all practitioners. One size does not fit all. Broadly speaking, there is the inner silence stage, the ecstatic conductivity stage, and the unity stage. Each has it own characteristics. Shades of all three stages may be occurring at the same time to one degree or other. So, as we move along on our path, we may be noticing the presence of inner silence (witness), having waves of ecstasy or other energy events, and wanting to serve others, all at the same time. This mixture can be a normal experience for us as we move along on the path of practices. One part of the experience is not superior to another part. Any or all of these characteristics can be acknowledged as progress. The feedback is very useful for sustaining our motivation to go on with practices.
This is a very interesting topic, and an opportunity to clear up misunderstandings about what the enlightenment process is. It is a continuum, with many characteristics that we may experience along the way. Or we may not experience much that is dramatic, and only find life gradually getting better in ordinary ways. This too is rising enlightenment. All experiences we have are milestones, but not conditions to be clung to by us or anyone else. There is always a next stage, and we will be wise to continue beyond the inner adventures of the moment.
Hanging on will hold us back. Moving on is living in the now. That is why we always favor the practice over the experience.
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 08:32:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Anthem and All:
It is important to acknowledge all experiences that may come up along the path, so there can be understanding of them, and so they can be used to fuel bhakti for daily practice. All experiences are valid for the person who is having them. If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming. Whatever experiences we are having today will suffice to help us stay motivated on our path. The flashy experiences of purification and opening are as valid as any other. We can acknowledge them, enjoy them, and move on.
Agreed, good points. Nothing wrong with our own scenery being motivation though progress can be slowed for practitioners and sometimes for long periods of time if "I" identifies with said experiences, so the moving on part of the equation is very important. Trouble can start for seekers also when they begin looking to scenery that others have and measuring their own experience with creating expectations for the future and/ or feeling short-comings in their experiences to date.
quote:
The thing is, every stage has its own signature, its own milestones, its own validity, and it is not appropriate to measure one stage with another stage's milestones. This is the same issue we run into when "enlightened" teachers tell us that we should be seeing the world as non-dual now rather than later. If the milestones are not geared to the experience of the practitioner, then the teaching will be lacking in that time and place, creating expectations that are not reasonable or practical. We should be careful about this.
Good points, I think milestones in behavior and actions with the rise of inner-silence would cover the continuum of enlightenment pretty effectively. From the gradual distancing between thoughts, emotional reactions and action, to the gradual increase in equanimity, decrease in subtle violence, to the gradual shift in action from self-serving to win-win, to service to others. From the gradual shift from abundant and long lasting experiences of anger, hate, greed, fear, jealousy, sadness, lust etc. to decreasing time spent in each and increasing periods of equanimity between each, to the gradual increase of unconditional love until it is outpouring everywhere in daily action.
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So, I don't think we can come up with a single set of criteria that can be applied to all practitioners. One size does not fit all. Broadly speaking, there is the inner silence stage, the ecstatic conductivity stage, and the unity stage. Each has it own characteristics. Shades of all three stages may be occurring at the same time to one degree or other. So, as we move along on our path, we may be noticing the presence of inner silence (witness), having waves of ecstasy or other energy events, and wanting to serve others, all at the same time. This mixture can be a normal experience for us as we move along on the path of practices. One part of the experience is not superior to another part. Any or all of these characteristics can be acknowledged as progress. The feedback is very useful for sustaining our motivation to go on with practices.
Good points. I don't know the answer, I just see that a habit of looking at our own actions, how we are getting along with others, how our morals and ethics are evolving or improving, the increasing love in our daily lives would be pretty hands-on experiences for all practitioners at all stages of the journey and also prior to the time when energy experiences start and silence is still an ambiguous concept.
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Or we may not experience much that is dramatic, and only find life gradually getting better in ordinary ways. This too is rising enlightenment.
This is the crux of my reason for posting this. From my perspective, I see the "ordinary ways" that things are improving to be a better place to focus measuring progress that would touch the broadest spectrum of practitioners. From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".
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All experiences we have are milestones, but not conditions to be clung to by us or anyone else. There is always a next stage, and we will be wise to continue beyond the inner adventures of the moment. Hanging on will hold us back. Moving on is living in the now. That is why we always favor the practice over the experience.
Wise words.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 09:15:03 AM
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- Bah, humbug! No sign of enlightenment here if that is a milestone!
/emcenezer Scrooge who enjoyed the following: quote:
If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming.
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 10:13:54 AM
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Hi Anthem:
There is much to be said for the "life improving in ordinary ways" approach for assessing our spiritual progress. All things being equal, it is a good way to view our path, with the least distraction.
However, when inner experiences (symptoms) occur involving the rise of inner silence (witness), or dramatic energy events (ecstatic or not, sometimes physical), then practitioners will ask about these. I don't think it is an effective approach to push them off, as many traditions do. This does not resolve whatever concerns a practitioner may have. As long as there are unresolved concerns, then there will tend to be a focus on the experience. That is a distraction, and can reduce motivation to practice.
This is also tied in with self-pacing in practices. If we understand the general nature of the excesses in purification that can occur within us, and know how to regulate our practices to mitigate such excesses, then maximum progress on our path can be sustained in a balanced way over the long term. We can acknowledge experiences for what they are, and then favor our practice over them, including self-pacing as needed.
So there are several reasons why we would like to have an understanding about anything that might happen, and that is a difference between AYP and other approaches.
If we can understand the process of human spiritual transformation as a whole, it can help us to be less fixated on the various experiences we may encounter along the way. That goes for service (karma yoga) also, which is largely an effect of abiding inner silence and its movement outward through us into the environment.
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 12:10:35 PM
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Interesting thread.
Andrew said:
It was an act of love for Clint Eastwood to [SPOILER REMOVED] but from other eyes it may not have appeared that way.
Aaaaah! Andrew, I was looking forward to watching that movie and what you have written has spoiled it for me pretty badly. Are you aware of the concept of movie spoilers and why not to write them on online forums without a warning?
From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".
I'm inclined to agree. There are people who experience any given Yogic milestone and who are still in bad levels of behavior at some level. Maybe most of them?
Is it time to go back to the drawing-board about what enlightenment is?
At some level, there is some sort of status-hierarchy/achievement-hierarchy/admiration-hierarchy operating in the minds of people here with 'enlightenment' on the top of the ladder.
At the social level, and the cultural-guidance level, it's probably a bad idea to create a admiration-hierarchy based on 'enlightenment' for the problems you mention. I've often talked about this problem before. Really, a jerk is not a big deal -- a jerk who is believed to be a perfect saint or a great wise one is a big deal to those who get close and BELIEVE.
Given that it is not good to create an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy based on yogic enlightenment, the question arises whether we should live with any admiration-hierarchy at all? But for most of us, it's almost inevitable that we have an admiration-hierarchy because we strive for something, so those we admire will be on some sort of 'hierarchy' in our minds.
Is enlightenment too big a thing in our minds? Do we have undue expectations of it? Are the 'enlightened' therefore in an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy in our minds?
Maybe it's just better to put people who behave well at the top of the biggest and most important admiration-hierarchy we operate with. It's as simple as that. Our admiration for the 'enlightened' should perhaps parallel our admiration for, say, a great diver or dancer or musician. It should come down a notch.
Yogic 'enlightenment' seems to be something other than what the traditions tell us it is. It has some connection with behaving well, but I can't see much evidence that the connection is that strong or powerful.
Are you Yogis all ready to put up with that right-sizing of your admiration for the 'enlightened'? With Yogic Enlightenment not being considered to be the culmination of human existence? Are y'all ready to have your own Yogic achievement brought down a notch or two?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 21 2009 12:28:07 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 12:43:53 PM
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I agree with you David/Andrew....I think it would be more advantageous to everyone if we put people who act out of Unconditional Love towards everyone on the top of the admiration-hierarchy then those who display the classic "enlightenment symptoms". This way there is less of an issue with people asking questions like "How can this guru be enlightened and still be such an ass to everyone?"
Love,
Carson |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 12:57:49 PM
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Hi Andrewquote:
I'm not too worried about establishing codes of conduct. I do love the 4 Agreements by Ruiz and I think the Noble 8 Fold Path and yoga's yamas and niyamas probably cover most of what is needed. I prefer to see improving conduct spring from stillness.
Yes, I agree that the only real lasting way that conduct will improve is out of stillness, in whichever way that is manifest in a particular path.
I do have a special interest in this at the moment as some of us here are looking at implementing a program in Ireland to deepen people's practice in the Buddhist tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. This involves using the 14 Mindfulness Trainings as part of the process.
I am keen from my perspective to understand the best way to utilise this tool and in fact to determine for myself whether it is a good idea in the first place.
I'm not suggesting a code of conduct be developed for AYP, as you say there are lots to choose from if people want to go that route.
Something I am interested in is how useful, or not, are codes of conduct.
One disadvantage in introducing a code is that people might look to the code for their direction, whereas, looking to stay in inner silence or presence and act from there is where it's at from our perspective.
Advantages are that they can act as Milestones to indicate to a person how they are getting on. As they develop they can see themselves manifesting the codes within.
They can also serve as tools of samyama as people develop inner silence and the codes become naturally manifest.
I think though, that the emphasis should always be placed, as AYP does it, on the development of inner silence and returning to that space, whenever possible, and especially before speaking or taking action.
quote:
From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".
Yes, we have several people in our AYP group who feel little or nothing when it comes to acstacy or bliss or even a slight tickle in the spine. However some of these people still come to the group and get a lot out of it.
They do get something, they feel the peace, joy and love in the group and ultimately this is all one needs.
Personally, I would put the experiencing of greater peace, love and joy at the top of the milestones list. These are very basic things that anyone can tap into at any stage and are in fact the essential ingredients of enlightenment, in my view. Things also that can be experienced without any ecsatacy or fireworks.
I agree also that understanding the nature of the journey by talking about and exploring the fireworks of the journey can be very valuable and becomes particularly so when running an AYP group. It means that people can have their experiences validated and as long as the reminder of scenary is there, it can be great fun also.
People feeling envy and jealousy can be a double edged sword perhaps. Whilst some may walk from the practice through frustration, others will be spurned on to keep a regular twice daily practice, which in itself is no mean thing.
The people who walk would probably be better in a Buddhist setting where these things are not generally discussed much.
Maybe it's my age, but in fact most of the people I know have not much interest in the fireworks end of the journey, they recognise that simple peace and joy are what they want in their lives.
Where it is very useful is when someone comes in experiencing ecstacy etc. and needs to be in a place where it is recognised and validated as being ok.
However though, even without ecstacy and fireworks I still promote AYP as a very effective and efficient method. It does produce the results even without the fireworks.
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Actions as the measure for spiritual progress
