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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 27 2009 : 11:55:43 AM
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There are so many reasons to give up. But i think the chief reason is that spiritual experiences seem to happen to people arbitrarily. In other words, i could meditate for the rest of my life and nothing much will happen. It isn't reliable at all.
On the other hand, my tongue only seems to move backwards by itself when i do Yogananda's techniques and think of God while meditating. I simply do not believe the people on this forum who think God has got nothing to do with their spiritual experiences inside, sounds and lights etc. They earned it from past lives. I do not have any inner visions or sounds, never have. THERE MUST BE A REASON FOR THIS. It has something to do with God. THat is the bottom line.
I am not going to meditate as a matter of chore, like brushing my teeth. That doesn't work. I am going to think non-stop about God from now on, even if nothing happens, i am going to keep on. Until the day i die if need be. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2009 : 12:36:56 PM
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Hi gumpi. What happened to your recent realisations?
In another thread you said:
quote:
I think for the first 5 years i was meditating i expected too much and it used to cause me complete frustration. That is most of the problem. It seems almost everyone goes through those dry spells. What i have learned is that i can use my devotion or bhakti exactly as Yogani says, which is outside of practices. If i feel upset i can channel that into inspiring me to reach for God more instead of getting down and wanting to give up. And while i am meditating i do it as a matter of course like they say, brushing teeth. Then i take a couple of minutes rest after meditating and think calmly about the fact that when i get up and go about my day i am not going to be frustrated because nothing seemed to happen in meditation, that God didn't show up this time etc. Because ultimately i think that grace descends when you AREN'T expecting it to.
You said then "And while i am meditating i do it as a matter of course like they say, brushing teeth." and now you say "I am not going to meditate as a matter of chore, like brushing my teeth.". Within a day difference or so?! What happened? Are you the same person yet?  Or are you being a puppet of your own frustrations? Either you have expectations, or you don't. I bet you have desire, a strong desire, but you expect too much. The ideal, I think, is to have a desire and love of God yes, but not expectations of anything. If you have faith you don't need expectations. Thy will be done, no? You can worship God every moment of your life, he/she is ALWAYS there, so why struggle to achieve anything? Just do your meditation if you feel that helps - like you seemed to feel - and let it all hang loose 
Just throwing this out there for you... |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 09:58:10 AM
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| I think you are wrong. Expectation is desire. The idea is to have desire only for God as opposed to the senses. So there is no way i am going to act as if i am meditating like brushing my teeth. No way! That won't bring much. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 10:53:41 AM
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But how do you seperate your desire for God from expectations? Desire For God seems a vague term to me because what exactly is your desire? God? Well, how? Does that mean you want to move closer to or experience God?
I'm assuming because you are on a yoga website that you feel that practices will bring you closer to this goal. So how do you desire God all the time without expecting something to happen to prove to you that you are experiencing this (ie Samadhi, silence, ect)?
What I'm asking is how do you seperate your desire from expectations? I believe, as a chronic sufferer of expecting, that expectations do get in the way of practice. But desire is Bhakti, which is obviously ok.
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 11:02:19 AM
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Hi Gumpi.
Funny. I was congratulating you before on your achieved realisation of the benefits of meditation and how you would do it as if brushing your teeth, and how you were not going to be mad because God "did not show up" during a meditation session. Now it is all over. For me it looks like you are being a puppet of your passions, your frustrations and emotions. Desire can be such an emotion, and more a hindrance than a benefit in this cases, just in my opinion. Self-pacing even (or especially) in desire is very important sometimes.
Desire is ok if it's well managed. Desire is fire and can get you burned even before starting. I have been there. Forcing your way into God (or anything worthwhile for that matter) won't work. You can waste your life "seeking" God, only to find out, at the end, that you wasted your life and did not enjoy all the wonderful moments life already delivers every second. You were too much being clouded by your passions, in other words. Do you want to appreciate every moments better? Then use methods that enable you to do so, that open you inside, like meditation. To force a method to work is the same as to force God to show itself. God couldn't care less for what your egoic mind thinks it wants. I think surrender and acceptance, humility, apprecition and gratitude (all connected) are the key, these open the doors to the wonders that are already happening in every moment. God is not going anywhere. Either you can fight it and think you need to struggle to "achieve" seeing "it" or you can relax to each moment and use methods that enable you to open up inside and enjoy and then you see. It is a paradox.
Meditation is for the spirit as sound sleep is for the body and mind. Life would be pretty miserable without sleep wouldn't it? You enjoy it more when you have had a good sound rest don't you? I think meditation works pretty much the same way with the spirit - it cleans and regenerates your spirit, so then you can see everything better, although nothing has changed, just your insides. Tehn again, everything changed.
Of course, at the end, it is your own choice and responsability. You have the choice to surrender or to struggle. I personally think that the first one, although seldom easier, usually brings the best and fastest results. And I don't struggle when I brush my teeth
All the very best my friend. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 11:06:31 AM
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I have the same problem as you. I asked it in this way before, "how can you have no expectations in meditation and desire God at the same time?" There was no answer to that. So it can only be that you only desire God to the exclusion of everything else or you give up the idea of experiencing anything metaphysical and just behave yourself, which doesn't tally with other people's experiences of the Divine, like Sri Ramakrishna.
I do not want to muck around with some kind of arbitrary "grace" that might or might not come regardless of what i do. This is the real problem that hasn't been addressed at these forums.
By the way, did you say you take drugs? I'm sure that won't help. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 11:27:15 AM
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Hi Anthony, my dear ardent and young (I presume!) seeker 
quote:
But how do you seperate your desire for God from expectations?
Desire can come from different sources - a yearning from your spirit, or something your egoic mind wants to achieve. The first one brings results faster then the second. They could be intermingled of course as well, maybe they always are. But expectations are always from your egoic mind. Your spirit already knows it is and what it is. It just wants to experience it. A huge difference. Your mind knows nothing and always tries to make sense of everything, it is always worried, with problems to solve etc. This being said expectations can also serve as motivation and inspiration to move further so there is a delicate balance here. I admit this is more of an art then a science but one that also refines over time, so don't worry. Or do, maybe it's your time for that!
quote:
So how do you desire God all the time without expecting something to happen to prove to you that you are experiencing this (ie Samadhi, silence, ect)?
Easy. Either you know or not. Either you feel it or not. Either you have faith or not. Either you believe in it or you don't. If you don't believe in it then why bother? But have this in mind - God is not a concept that you can hold in your mind. God is much much bigger than your mind, God is everything. So, how can your have expectations?? What kind of expectations if you are about to realise the biggest mystery of all? It has much more to do with feelings inside, an intuition, a calling maybe...either you have that or you don't. I believe you do have it, and everybody will, sooner or later.
From the beggining I noticed meditation worked for example but I expected nothing. Well, a better word is actually demand - I never demanded anything. Is ok to expect stuff and be aware of changed and effects of practices in you, but is not ok to demand them or change your mood because it did not work. You just move on then. Your desire - that is strong in you - will bring you, sooner or later - to the truth. Hope this helps somehow.
quote:
I believe, as a chronic sufferer of expecting, that expectations do get in the way of practice. But desire is Bhakti, which is obviously ok.
Even expectations and the frustrations you expericne from them can be a part of your path. Feel them, be aware of them, don't supress them. Like in everything just observe and be aware of them. There is great power in this. Don't expect not to have expectations Each person has their own path and I think this is part of yours. Relax into them, observe them. They can be your best friends, even if they don't seem like it at first.
About desire, please see my previous reply to Gumpi. Desire can be a hindrance as well in my view and also Yogani says you need to self-pace it at some point. For me desire is fire and it can burn you up inside if not well managed. You seem to have plenty of it which is not a bad thing at all! Just need to be managed. I guess the best is to have desire that enables you to practice everyday but enough faith to know that your desire you always get you there no matter what. Like that your fire keeps tamed. If it is not through meditation taht you get there, so be it. Be at ease my friend, be patient. You have the fire so you will get there sooner or later |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 11:33:37 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
So it can only be that you only desire God to the exclusion of everything else or you give up the idea of experiencing anything metaphysical and just behave yourself, which doesn't tally with other people's experiences of the Divine, like Sri Ramakrishna.
How can you desire God to the exclusion of everythign else if everything IS God?
quote:
I do not want to muck around with some kind of arbitrary "grace" that might or might not come regardless of what i do. This is the real problem that hasn't been addressed at these forums.
Grace is not arbitrary. I believe all is as it should be and everyone is, in the path, where they should. All comes to your life when you are ready, as long as you desire it enough, and are ready to accept it and appreciate it. Patience and faith ARE grace. Faith is the key here. And Trust. Be inspired. Have faith. Trust. All will be added unto you
Easy into it my friend. I see you demanding too much of God and Life. You are missing it by doing that. Be humble. Accept that you might not arrive in this lifetime, who knwos? Is God less merciful or Pure Love because of that? Of course not! |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Jan 28 2009 11:38:50 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 12:04:22 PM
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Dear Gumpi,
"
I do not want to muck around with some kind of arbitrary "grace" that might or might not come regardless of what i do."
Do I take it you want guarantees that if you do sadhana or anything else for that matter,that you will have experiences or receive grace.Wow some expectations!
Perhaps you need to look at some other practices also that resonate with you or some guidance.
L&L
Dave |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 12:25:28 PM
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| Very good Dave, concise and precise It took me a lot more words to try to say that! HAHAHA |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 5:25:20 PM
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I expect yoga to be like a science. That is all i can ask. If it isn't then it shouldn't be called a science, it should be called an art.
I've pretty much had it with all this God business now. I don't believe in God any more. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 6:14:34 PM
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| Oh Gumpi, you put a smile on my face |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 6:37:29 PM
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Hi gumpi.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi on Jan 27 2009 : 11:55:43 AM
I am going to think non-stop about God from now on, even if nothing happens, i am going to keep on.
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi on Jan 28 2009 : 5:25:20 PM
I've pretty much had it with all this God business now. I don't believe in God any more.
It only took you 29.5 hours to go from the first post quoted to the second.....don't you think you are being a little impatient with things?
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 28 2009 7:10:30 PM |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2009 : 8:45:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
By the way, did you say you take drugs? I'm sure that won't help.
I took psycadelics before I ever did yoga. If not for doing them I would not be doing yoga now. They had me sitting in cross-legged positions and feeling prana and doing asanas and meditation back when I thought yoga was an exercise and Buddhism was what Middle Eastern people do. For some people I believe they can break down barriers that may be there otherwise unless something drastic happens (near-death experience, disease, ect). I also used marijuana on and off and it helped tremendously with realizing obstructive thought patterns and with realizing the nature of certain aspects of yoga. I believe they have a time and place for some, but I also believe they don't mix well in my case with practice which is why I don't use them anymore. Like Yogani says, eventually the nature and use of drugs will come into light automatically through favoring the practice. They did what they did, and I don't regret it. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 10:16:05 AM
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Dear Gumpi,
My post was sent in all sincerity and was not a slight against you.I understand where you are coming from and but for the grace of God many more of us might feel as you do.For myself I was brought up as a Christian and attended Sunday school every week.My dad was a sergeant in the Royal Signals of the British army and brought us up to respect others,etc.He was strict but not a bully and I thank him for the moral standards I encompass in my life.
Even with this childhood I have been an agnostic for most of my life until my experiences on this path forced me to revisit my beliefs.even during my many years of martial arts i was still an agnostic.
Now my beliefs may have been altered but I still don't look for God in ways that have me going to church and praying, expecting things to happen because I believe that I deserve something for my efforts.I mention this because maybe your concept of worshipping God might need looking at again. I don't know, I simply mention it as another option for you.
Myself personally I don't get up in a morning and think 'how can I worship the lord today?' nor do I believe it is necessary.Now my teacher who is a high level yogini thinks of nothing but God. That is her method and just as correct as anyone else's.
For me I get up in a morning normally in a good mood with smiles and pleasant greetings for all.My worship of God is finding ways to make another person's day brighter, to treat others with respect, be courteous and helpful.I don't get up in the morning thinking God will reward me for this, I simply know that every individual(including animals and plants) on this earth is entitled by birthright to be treated in the way that I wish to be treated.My teacher summed it up for me a few years ago by telling me to try to have no ill thoughts, words or actions towards others for every waking moment.Now that is real sadhana.
I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for, but I don't believe you have yet, and I sincerely invite you to mail me privately if you wish for support or guidance.
L&L
Dave
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 11:02:14 AM
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A quote was expounded upon at my meditation group last night and I would like to share the general jist of it as it is plenty applicable to what we are talking about here in this thread...
Pema Chodron said something along the lines of this:
We often come to meditation or any spiritual discipline with the expectation that it will make us a better person...Very similar to our way of thinking when we set out to start a new physical exercise or buy something new....We may start a new regiment of jogging every morning with the expectation that this will make us a better person...this is the same way we think when we say for example, go buy a new house....we expect that this new house will make us feel better about ourselves...same thing with meditation. If we sit down to meditate with the expectation of it making us a better person we are trapping ourselves in expectations that are not realistic. It is wrong to think that if you could only get along with your boss at work that you would be a happier person....same with meditation...if you meditate with the expectation that it will make you a happier person you are again trapped by your own expectations and are really just setting yourself up for disappointment. Meditation is to be done without expectations, for when it is done like this, and only when it is done like this, can you truly experience the joy of simply being.
This is not a direct quote, and should be seen as my interpretation of what Pema said, but this is the general idea he was putting forward.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 29 2009 2:38:07 PM |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 11:14:19 AM
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And a good quote at that Carson.
Comparing with jogging for example: if you don't enjoy jogging and only do it because you expect to get fitter and stronger from it, then you are being counter-productive (straining yourself and not really enjoying the moment) and trapping yourself for potential future disapointment. On the contrary, if you do it because you enjoy the moment (i.e. makes you feel better at the moment and afterwards) then that is ok, I'd say.
Meditation is a very simple exercise, and it does not seem demanding at all and, at least for me, it is a very pleaseant time that I take out just for myself. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 11:22:58 AM
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| I like that quote Carson. It is a wake-up call for me, personally. I think, in non-spiritual terms and what can be expected in normal life, that what can be hoped for is not to be made a better person, but to be a better person because you no longer care about being made into anything. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 1:07:34 PM
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Hi YIL...Anthony,
Glad you enjoyed the quote/my interpretation of the quote. I found it very revealing and quite appropriate. I know I still have some expectations that I need to get over....for example I expect that if I am drug free I will be happier. This is hard for me. I want to be clean, but I feel (physically) better when at least slightly under the influence (of marijuana). I know I need to let go of this expectation (and the expectation that physical comfort is necessary for spiritual liberation) and just let myself be me, but sometimes it is hard. I just wanted to say that I am no better off then anyone else here. I understand what is necessary for pure bliss consciousness now I just need to allow it to happen.
Love,
Carson
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 1:34:14 PM
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Hi Carson,
I appreciate your struggle. I believe you are in the right track though. We all have our struggles, but for me, as long as I keep meditating, I seem to be more "protected" and "aligned" than if not so I have faith that everything is going to be ok if I keep on having courage, faith and keep being aware of my insides.
Regarding Marijuana, I used it for a little while and I wouldnn't enjoy it for the long term. I can understand it can cloud the mind, so, for your own well being, I'd say it is better to be able to quit. I had great experiences but also some very bad ones. In short, I was not in control, it was clouding my mind. For me, that was a bad thing. But I do understand its appeal and only you can tell if you find it somehow beneficial or a hindrance. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2009 : 1:44:16 PM
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Hi YIL,
Just FYI, I quit smoking weed on Jan 10th this year, so I am clean and not using. BUT, I still occasionally feel that I would be better off using (a little) because it will make me more "comfortable" and allow me easier access to "peace of mind". But I also know that if I give these feelings time and space and can let go of them I will be much better off in the end for it. This is what I am doing. I just wanted you all to know that I am struggling the same as everyone else. I have gotten a sense lately that some here may think I am further along then I am and I don't want people to build up any biases on where I may be at in my journey. I am on the journey same as everyone else, but I am struggling right alongside you all. We all have expectations, me included. I am hopefully getting to a time in my life though where I can more easily release these expectations as I can see them now as the root of all suffering (IMO).
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 29 2009 2:36:15 PM |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 12:37:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I expect yoga to be like a science. That is all i can ask. If it isn't then it shouldn't be called a science, it should be called an art.
I've pretty much had it with all this God business now. I don't believe in God any more.
Because of God being the unexplainable variable that superceeds all that exists, in actuality there are no sciences, only arts. Life is art and Yogani has put together a pretty nice practice for those who enjoy that art which he speaks of.
just thoughts
Neil |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Feb 09 2009 : 07:56:38 AM
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Hi gumpi,
I meditate for one basic reason: pleasure. I take pleasure in stillness or relative stillness and quiet awareness that occurs in meditation since it is the tumoil in the mind which is the primary source of pain. And I look forward to more and more pleasure and god doesn't really enter into the equation for me so much.
Sometimes you have to mine a ton of dirt to find an ounce of gold but it is there and it is worth it. This is a science and an art and a philosophy. A yogi can only show you were to dig. If you keep digging there, you will strike it rich, sooner or later.
Have you read Yogani's book on Bhakti and Karma Yoga? It addresses these issues.
From my point of view, grace is karma.
Best, yb. |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Feb 09 2009 : 09:07:10 AM
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| You would like Timothy Leary's take on meditation and Dharma practice, yogibear. He said something along the lines of "Why do people do yoga and meditation? To get high!" |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 09 2009 : 1:14:32 PM
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Yes sure, the side effects of yoga and meditation are pleasurable feelings of relaxation and some good feelings. But to me this is not enough. I want to know if there is a God. Everything else pails in comparison to that. I mean, what is the point in talking about auotmatic yogas and kundalini if God doesn't exist? You must know that the vast majority of the global population simply know nothing about kundalini and perhaps if they did know they wouldn't seperate it from God?
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why do people quit the spiritual path?
