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ab25
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 12:02:54 PM
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I have been on another forum for a while and was surprised to find out many of them had been on spirtual paths and quit. Now they preach against it. One guy rants about how chakras don't exist, then I found out he spent time in an ashram. Another one says there is no god but he used to teach "A Course in Miracles".
I asked them and they said they woke up and realized it was a scam. I think they expected too much or didn't have the patience.
Does anybody have any insight on this topic?
Alan |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 12:25:54 PM
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Selling a course in miracles and then suddenly realising it was a scam  'Twasant me yer 'onor, big lads did it and ran away 
Hmmm, well I think it's just a matter of deciding for yourself really. Bit like religion really, you partake in it if you feel you get something back. If you then decide it's not for you than that's also fine as there are many roads to our own personal goals. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 12:28:14 PM
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It's because they don't get answers that their mind is looking for. Or maybe they were getting close to the truth and the mind got scared of losing it's identity and labeled it a scam and ran as far away from it as possible.
That is why it is important to cultivate some inner silence.. then our inner guru will guide us to take what we need form a path and move on, rather than call it a scam. There are millions of spiritual paths out there.. and if one path helps even one person.. it's purpose is served. If one path takes you even one step closer to the truth, then it's purpose is served.
Every person is different, one path may take someone all the way.. but for most.. we need to pick out what works for us and move on... instead of getting caught up in the faults of the system or people in the system.
Yogani has done a wonderful job of picking the best flowers and making a beautiful AYP bouquet. We all need to do the same. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 12:50:05 PM
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I'm not surprised that the guy had a problems with A Course in Miracles. That book teaches people that everything that happens in the entire world is their doing and responsibility, and when people do wrong to you that is also your fault.
Chakras are real but i can understand why many people don't believe they exist. A person i know who knew Paramahansa Yogananda told me that he believes the chakras are physical physiological phenomena and not spiritual (but i don't agree with him). So you see, even people who experience chakras can claim they don't exist.
The internet is probably responsible for a lot of doubt too. It is so easy to find dirt on almost anything with the internet. So i would say keep that in mind.
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ab25
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 1:41:58 PM
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I don't agree that "A course in miracles" is a scam. Higher beings lead me to it and are teaching it to me. I don't get the same message you do. That is not the point. I think all spiritual teachings have diamonds amid the dust.
I guess if you consider scientific skepticism a religion, maybe they found their path in that. The guy who lived in an ashram and now says chakras do not exist is perplexing. They also harbor a lot of hate for religion and spirituality. I guess this comes from feeling scammed. |
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ab25
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 2:05:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
maybe they were getting close to the truth and the mind got scared of losing it's identity.
I think this is happening to me. Are there any teachings on the site about this? |
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Lacinato
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 2:51:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ab25
I guess if you consider scientific skepticism a religion, maybe they found their path in that.
For the person who is looking for something "out there" to tell them what to do, skepticism could be a good counter-balance to their disposition. Maybe people fall off the path because they were afraid, but for some, it's probably just a different path. Different strokes and all. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 3:11:48 PM
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i can tell you a lot of reasons: your normal kind of fear, the fear of the ego which Shanti mentioned, suffering, overloading symptoms, not knowing what's going on, rush of emotions, higher states for a short while than lower states for a long while, not getting what was expected, little patience.....
it's a long list as you see, i'm sorry about what happened to these guys but this stuff just happens and it doesn't have to let others on the path down.
the way i see it, in a spiritual life one needs good "guidance" and a hell lot of "bhakti" and "patience" to pull through and in the end there's no doubt about it he'll get more rewards than what he bargened for.
Ananda |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 3:13:27 PM
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People quit the spiritual path for a common sequence of reasons, but if you don't trigger this sequence, then disillusionment need not always happen, or to ultimately lead to abandonment of the path. When one has accepted spiritual teachings very uncritically or has abandoned intellectual evaluation of spiritual teachings, then the cornerstone of later disillusionment is set. Knowledge is gained through many different mechanisms--intellectual study, direct experience, cognition, revelation, implantation, etc. When we take all of our spiritual knowledge from only one channel, we put all of our eggs in one basket, so to speak. No matter how "into" the path we may be for a time, it is a house of cards and something will eventually make it fall, leaving us on a path that may appear either stupid, or even dangerous. So we run away and bad-mouth it. I was on such a potential path many decades ago as a youth--ran away and joined what many now say was a cult--the TM Movement of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. I "joined" as a full-time devotee of the guru, living in an ashram and studying and working for him 24/7 for two years, 1974-76. But, I kept my intellectual doubt engaged, and that enabled me to still tell truth from bullsh*t, or at least take the diamonds which Maharishi dished out and toss away the dung that surrounded much of the rest of his organization. The knowledge was always valuable, but he was not a flawless or perfect man and he ended up surrounded by a bunch of sycophants and fools, so that MUCH of the stuff that came down was NOT truth, or even sensible, but only one side (and often a badly misinterpreted version) of things they thought the Master meant. When you follow blindly, you will eventually hit some wall, and end up with a bloody nose.
As with any spiritual practice, I advise moderation, careful scrutiny, and validation of whatever anybody tells you by a trusted person or by your own personal experiences. I've been "following" my spiritual path for 40 years now--sometimes I need to take a turn one way or the other because things change--I changed, my family and career changed, my life changes all the time. Our paths must adapt to change, otherwise we risk loosing the path entirely.
Michael |
Edited by - mikkiji on Jan 18 2009 3:16:49 PM |
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Shredder
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 9:42:10 PM
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| I was on a certain path some years ago and quit because of a relationship. I recently felt the need to get back into it and found I no longer felt comfortable with that path, Internet info was a big factor, I kept reading and researching but did not jump in. Then somehow I stumbled in here, and everything felt "right". I think there is a lot of chaff with the wheat, and like an old friend of mine said, "keep an open mind, but don't let your brains fall out".....Shredder |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2009 : 11:03:07 PM
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A very interesting topic. I hope the discussion continues :-)
I was just proposing the question earlier to a fellow AYPer I know in person, "What if you just stopped?". No sadhana, no books, no forums, no nothing spiritual! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 04:59:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by anthony574
A very interesting topic. I hope the discussion continues :-)
I was just proposing the question earlier to a fellow AYPer I know in person, "What if you just stopped?". No sadhana, no books, no forums, no nothing spiritual!
It's a good point. There again, at one time we were all stopped as we had not tried to find anything. It's a bit like "why do anything?". I think there is an inbuilt drive to discover and learn and just because what we do now seems important does not mean that it will always be so.
What are we if we do nothing at all? Well then do we accept life as it is ? Thats difficult when everything is in a state of constant change, even a mountain is weathering away from a physical point of view (and is in constant motion on a quantum level). |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 07:33:27 AM
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Stooooop thinking!!!!!
Anyone who has doubts about (his) spirituality, let him quit for a while. One day, one week...and let him watch what happens.
Just listen to your heart..
When someone eats everyday the same dish, it might be
the best nutritious dish ever, if this person is not NEW everyday, better eat McDonald's garbage!
(Sorry! Goddess ate a lion today! She cannot wrap her words in cotton anymore ) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 1:09:15 PM
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I think your right about thinking too much.
My take on it is to consider that if I had half an hour to spare during the morning and evenings then that time would be wasted on watching the news or something equally wasteful. So, half an hour spent on some quiet time coupled with some diaphragm practise to get some fresh air into my lungs is hardly a chore and it does seem to be doing something useful(even if that was to just a sequence of weird experiences and sensations) so I keep at it.
Spritual enlightenment? Chakras? Nirvana? Well if it happens, it happens and while I do the practise I carry on having an open mind, studying and learning, while keeping some degree of skepticism about all subjects. |
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Goddessinside
158 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2009 : 3:10:38 PM
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I know nothing, I read the minimum...but there is a voice inside...
this voice talks to us, each moment, but we rarely listen...
rather we listen to others, we are OUTSIDE...
it's good to read, to understand, to communicate, to share...
but comes a moment the INSIDE calls for us, and this INSIDE is our truth, it's Existence itself calling for us.
So "I believe", "I don't believe", "I think", "I don't think", "I've heard" "they said" etc... are all excuses for us to occupy ourselves, WHY? maybe to avoid BEING with our SELF. And I am the first victim of those traps! The thing is I try to watch as much as possible my thoughts/emotions/body.
If I want to go to the extreme: all that I wrote above, throw it to the trash, cause if I were truely meditative, in THIS moment, I wouldn't have even written a word!
But let's me just say: go inside.....all the questions and answers will simply drop. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2009 : 08:59:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ab25
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
maybe they were getting close to the truth and the mind got scared of losing it's identity.
I think this is happening to me. Are there any teachings on the site about this?
What do you practice AB? Do you practice meditation or do you follow any other spiritual techniques?
Self Inquiry helps a lot with fears like losing oneself and/or losing the mind. You can look at the FAQ on What is Self-Inquiry or Jnana Yoga ?
However at AYP we don't recommend starting off with Self Inquiry before you have some inner silence (cultivated through a daily routine of twice a day meditation).. because then self inquiry becomes very mindy or as Yogani calls it "non-relational". Another technique that helps is Samyama. This too works better once you have cultivated some inner silence through meditation.
If you can talk a bit more about what you fear your fears maybe.. we could help you some more.
Wish you all the best.  |
Edited by - Shanti on Jan 20 2009 09:11:42 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 08:49:20 AM
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Hi ab,
Direct experience is the surest cure for doubts about whether or not the "spiritual path" is a scam. Once you have it, there is no denying it. In fact, everybody is on "THE PATH." These people that "fall off" really haven't fallen off. You can't fall off. If you are alive, you are on it. You are always on it. Every one is evolving in all respects, at their own pace and in their own way, even if it appears as if they are not. We are all learning our lessons in the perfect sequence and at the right time according to our own unique karma and our won unique inclination.
There is only one way to obtain direct experience and that is thru practice. Direct experience strengthens your sense of self and destroys all doubt. That is how I think about it.
Welcome to the forum ab and all the best, yb. |
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ab25
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 10:39:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
What do you practice AB? Do you practice meditation or do you follow any other spiritual techniques?
I do a lot of reading spiritual material and do various energy work. I do root contractions, spinal breathing and meditation. I think that my problems are coming from integrating my changing world view into my everyday life.
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Edited by - ab25 on Jan 21 2009 1:05:12 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 1:05:52 PM
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It depends upon what exactly you mean by "direct experience". What are you talking about?
I think people fall off the spiritual path precisely because of lack of these supposed experiences everyone else talks about. I personally think spiritual experiences are self hypnosis these days. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 21 2009 : 2:15:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ab25
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
What do you practice AB? Do you practice meditation or do you follow any other spiritual techniques?
I do a lot of reading spiritual material and do various energy work. I do root contractions, spinal breathing and meditation. I think that my problems are coming from integrating my changing world view into my everyday life.
So you do follow AYP spinal breathing and meditation right?
The confusion you are feeling is good. It shows something is happening. We have all gone through it.. and it has been talked about a lot here at the AYP forums. When I went through it, and people said "don't worry it's just a phase, just keep practicing and all will become clear to you".. I found it very hard to believe them.. and yet I did practice and many of the fears just dissolved away. So I will tell you the same. It's a phase. It's a phase of unlearning what you have known to be true for a long time. You can never satisfy the mind with answers. Even if you do find answers to its fears right now, the mind may be satisfied for a few days, mins and then be back with more questions. So it helps to have faith and practice and let the knowing flow from the silence. Then you will know, what you need to know, when you need to know it. Keep up with your practice AB.. and let your silence guide you.
Do you practice samyama? If not, maybe you can try it. Once you get the hang of it.. you can take any question you have and let it go in silence.. not looking for an answer, but knowing your silence will give you the right answer, not necessarily in the form your mind thinks it should be, but in the form that is right for that moment.
Self Inquiry is another great tool. Since you love reading, you may like to get Yogani's Self Inquiry book. It is a real treasure.
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apachechief
Ireland
65 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2009 : 11:36:14 AM
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| People quit because they sometimes don't realise that they are responsible for their own spiritual evolution. That a lot of people cram their lives with new age nonsense doesn't really help. I did all that myself and it was only by letting it go and looking at things more internally rather than externally that I began to see things in a more honest way; not expecting things to happen but just being open to the possibilities and riding the waves when they eventually come along. |
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ab25
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2009 : 2:14:30 PM
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| I tried Samyama a little a while ago. I didn't go with that very long. I will look into the self inquiry. It is good to hear you say the confusion is a sign of progress. I don't doubt the path myself, but I have had few signs that I am making progress. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2009 : 2:34:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ab25
I tried Samyama a little a while ago. I didn't go with that very long. I will look into the self inquiry. It is good to hear you say the confusion is a sign of progress. I don't doubt the path myself, but I have had few signs that I am making progress.
Yes.. it is very hard to see the progress "we" have made because it does not match up with the image "our" minds have made of what progress should look like.
Funny when we hear the wonderful experiences people have and wonder why it does not happen to us.. well actually it does happen to us every time we meditate or feel the silence.. even for a fleeting moment.. but the mind dismisses it 'cause it is nothing like the image it made in it's head of what the experience was like in the other person.  Oh well the mind will do its thing and we will have to find a way to go beyond the mind.. then progress and scenery wont matter.
Self Inquiry can be very interesting when you do have some silence. And you definitely do have some.. else you would not be asking this question here. Enjoy AB.
These topics may be of some help:
Self-Inquiry -- A Practice Between our Meditations
In the sky of your mind you are the sun. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2009 : 4:52:03 PM
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why quit searching, frankly, searching all the time sucks. we either accept that we exist or we dont. There is no path to God, we are because of God, and we are part of God, therefore we are. What do we have to do to realize this?
Guess that depends on the person. are there other state of consciousness, seems so as I have experienced unexplainable things my whole life. Then again existence is unexplainable. I know people will say we are stillness, etc.... Why must we know how stillness existing came to be? We are already what we are, we can do practices to try and get to our core being, or we can understand we are are core being and experience out from that space. We also search, some of us anyway, because we believe life in its current state is not good enough and we want something better. Life is as it is and once we can accept that we can move from there. Kind of like first step in AA meetings. We are not human beings trying to experience God, We are god having a human experience. Doing practices to try and find god gets old for some after a while. Just my take on it since you asked. SOmetimes I get irratated from all the philosphies of how to come to this understanding, but in my heart i am very accepting of the spiritual path. I wish everyone the best on theirs.
with love
Brother Neil
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2009 : 09:37:27 AM
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Hi gumpi,
"Sometimes you gotta mine a ton a dirt............to find an ounce of gold." But it is there.
A yogi can only show you where to dig. But you have to do the digging.
You have to have your own bhakti and deal with your own past and generate your own future karma.
If you have a direct experience you will know it. No one, including yourself, can invalidate it. In fact it is the opposite of hypnosis. It is self gnosis.
It will be something along the lines of:
"You, yourself, in your essential being, nature and entity, are spirit and nothing but spirit, in and of spirit, spiritual and not material."
You can and do have this experience right now in varying degrees. It is called the witness. At some point in time, it might become extraordinarily more distinct and obvious to you. It might become stabilized at this extraordinary level. It might not.
Regardless. You are no longer operating on the basis of faith or belief. You are operating on the basis of direct experience.
That is what direct experience means to me. Hope that makes it clear gumpi.
Best, yb. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2009 : 10:03:30 AM
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Hi Yogibear,
Just read your last two posts I thought they were amazing.
quote:
In fact, everybody is on "THE PATH." These people that "fall off" really haven't fallen off. You can't fall off. If you are alive, you are on it. You are always on it. Every one is evolving in all respects, at their own pace and in their own way, even if it appears as if they are not. We are all learning our lessons in the perfect sequence and at the right time according to our own unique karma and our won unique inclination.
I agree with this as well in this and it's very nicely put. I wrote something along the same lines elsewhere, that if God is everything (and it is) then there is no escaping it right? So, like you say, we never really "fall off the path" We might take it slower or something like that but that's ok. Thanks for the beautiful reminder and motivation for more direct experience. |
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why do people quit the spiritual path?
