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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 12:23:40 AM
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| It is good to understand all Indian philosophies. The greatest masters knew all contradicting philosophies. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 04:29:35 AM
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Hi TMS
quote:
I have to say Christi, well said. You appear to have solidly asserted your point that the Buddha was influenced by the Upanishads and not the other way around.
Actually I was saying that the Buddha seems to have been influenced by the Vedas and early Upanishads, and that the Buddha’s teachings influenced later Indian spiritual thought including the later Upanishads. It’s a two-way trip. And here at AYP we have a lot to be grateful for because much of the Yogic tradition has also grown out of Vedic, Vedantic and Buddhist teachings.
quote:
Actually, you continue to assert that the so-called Krishna's words and the Upanishads came first. But that has not been established. In fact, there is no record that any person named Krishna actually lived. Krishna was a colloquial figure, like Shiva. No one knows if they really lived or not. No one knows when the Ramayan and the Mahabharat were written or orally composed. No one knows who authored the writings attributed to Rama or Krishna. And no Upanishad has any known author. So you cannot authoritatively assert that the Buddha was influenced by these writings, nor that he developed his ideas from them. No one even knows when the Buddha actually lived. You can only speculate as such.
There are more than 200 Upanishads in existance today, only 13 of which are considered classical. Of these, scholars date 6 to between 800 and 600 BCE, another 5 to between 400 and 500 BCE and the remainder to around 300 to 400 BCE. This dating is based on historical evidence.
Historians put the dates of the life of Krishna at either circa 3100 BCE or circa 1500 BCE. This is also based on historical evidence, some of which is found in the Buddhist Pali Cannon. The Buddha was believed to have lived around 500 BCE.
The Mahabarata can be dated because it refers to wars that can be verified by historians, and because it refers to people who are recorded in India's history.
quote:
Is it possible that you are wrong? Or is it a fixed view to which you cannot relent?
Of course I could be wrong. If we are to accept the evidence of historians, it is still possible that the Buddha was not influenced at all by the religious thought that existed in India during his lifetime. There are a number of possibilities. One is that it is purely coincidental that there are similarities between the Buddha's teachings and earlier religious thought. Another possibility is that the Buddha recieved his wisdom from higher beings, which was the same way in which the authors of the Vedas and the Upanishads recieved their wisdom. This should not be ruled out as a possibility as it is written in the Pali Cannon that when the Buddha attained enlightenment, hundreds of beings decended from the heavenly realms simply to watch and marvel at the sight.
To be honest, it doesn’t matter much. What is important is that we have access to the teachings today, and we can apply them in our lives. In that sense, it doesn’t matter at all what chronological order the teachings appeared in, or who was influenced by who.
quote:
In some traditions, the realization of emptiness and compassion is bodhichitta and is the equal to enlightenment.
That’s right. One of the nimittas that arises spontaneously with the realization of emptiness is bliss. Gradually, through meditation, bliss becomes established as the natural condition of our consciousness. Compassion, or divine love is the culmination of that realization as radiant awareness takes its seat in the heart and illuminates the world from there. This is the whole purpose of living the holy life, and is the meaning of enlightenment.
Christi
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 09:37:22 AM
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Then, you have the final word.
P.S. I find it very interesting that the ancient Taoists also have a concept of emptiness and the ancient Hopi also rely on a heart, throat, forehead and crown chakra. Ultimate truth is independent. It is all that is independent. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 4:10:59 PM
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| Hard to call any of that authoritative. My mind boggles at all the theistic beliefs. Non-theistic non-idealistic systems are just more relevant to real life. From the point of meditation practice, theism just doesn't add anything useful. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 30 2009 6:09:59 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 12:51:36 AM
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I only posted it because of the historical info |
Edited by - alwayson on Jan 31 2009 03:28:13 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 04:02:37 AM
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Hi Alwayson,
quote:
It is good to understand all Indian philosophies. The greatest masters knew all contradicting philosophies.
Absolutely.
Personally I find that understanding different traditions helps my own practice in many ways. Not only do I incorporate practices from different traditions, but understanding that they are all heading in the same direction is very beneficial. As Yogani says above, it all starts to look more and more like the same elephant.
I don't think it is a coincidence at all that many of the masters have a good knowledge of different traditions. One of the best books I have read on Christianity was written by Paramahansa Yogananda, entitled "The second coming of Christ". Some of the stories that Jesus told and which are recorded in the New Testament come straight out of the Buddhist Pali Cannon. Yogani seems to have a very good knowledge of Taoism, and a pretty good knowledge of Zen Buddhism. And so on.
The more we understand of different traditions, the more the walls between them fall away into emptiness. 
Christi
p.s. Thanks for the link to the Agama site. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 06:51:32 AM
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hi all, great discussions keep it going.
and i just would like to add the Chrsitian point of view to the subject that of Teresa of Avila to be precise.
this is a quote of her experiences from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila
quote:
"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." - St. Theresa of AvilaThe kernel of Teresa's mystical thought throughout all her writings is the ascent of the soul in four stages ("The Autobiography," Chs. 10-22):
The first, or "heart's devotion," is that of devout contemplation or concentration, the withdrawal of the soul from without and specially the devout observance of the passion of Christ and penitence.
The second is the "devotion of peace," in which at least the human will is lost in that of God by virtue of a charismatic, supernatural state given of God, while the other faculties, such as memory, reason, and imagination, are not yet secure from worldly distraction. While a partial distraction is due to outer performances such as repetition of prayers and writing down spiritual things, yet the prevailing state is one of quietude.
The "devotion of union" is not only a supernatural but an essentially ecstatic state. Here there is also an absorption of the reason in God, and only the memory and imagination are left to ramble. This state is characterized by a blissful peace, a sweet slumber of at least the higher soul faculties, a conscious rapture in the love of God.
The fourth is the "devotion of ecstasy or rapture," a passive state, in which the consciousness of being in the body disappears (2 Corinthians 12:2-3). Sense activity ceases; memory and imagination are also absorbed in God or intoxicated. Body and spirit are in the throes of a sweet, happy pain, alternating between a fearful fiery glow, a complete impotence and unconsciousness, and a spell of strangulation, intermitted sometimes by such an ecstatic flight that the body is literally lifted into space. This after half an hour is followed by a reactionary relaxation of a few hours in a swoon-like weakness, attended by a negation of all the faculties in the union with God. From this the subject awakens in tears; it is the climax of mystical experience, productive of the trance. (Indeed, St. Theresa herself was said to have been observed levitating during Mass on more than one occasion.)
Teresa is one of the foremost writers on mental prayer. Her definition was used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "Mental prayer [oración mental] is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."
light and love,
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 06:55:43 AM
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| by the way, it's a lot similar to the description which yogani gives to the journey ;) |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 08:45:12 AM
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Parahamsa Yoganada definitely presented yog in a way to appeal to the Christian mind.
The rapture, ecstasy and bliss referenced by Christi and Ananda is also mentioned by the Buddha.
The Buddha refers to bliss and Great Bliss. The first arises as one of the stages of contemplation, a step along the path. (the four dhyan, the four formless attainments, the five super-knowledges); (the union of emptiness and compassion).
Great Bliss is the same as nirvana which really is not a kind of bliss, it is an analogy for an awareness devoid of attachments. It is more like a Great Big Relief, when one realizes that one no longer has any more karma, good or bad, to worry about.
The full awakening then arises by realizing that everyone else needs to get through this process and the means of guiding people arises within innate wisdom.
Contrary to what Alwayson has been saying, the rainbow body is not the ultimate goal. There are many low and high rainbow bodies, but these are not indicative of no more birth. When the Buddha died there was no rainbow body.
Those who achieve buddhahood in this life display supernormal powers, of knowledge, wisdom, sense perceptions, clairvoyance, the ability to appear in multiple places at once, flying, walking on water, etc. etc. These powers are the side effects of the perfection of wisdom (of no desire and no attachment) and are only used to guide others onto the path.
Guidance is the mission of a buddha. The "highest buddhist practice" is emanating compassionate wisdom for the countless sentient beings. Rather, bodhichitta.
Love,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 31 2009 09:29:39 AM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 10:41:33 AM
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Actually, this side discussion about sources of teachings and eldest vs. youngest view, theist/atheist is non-sense, not helpful, not important.
"The One and Only Way" is meditation. The right method of meditation is non-attachment, non-desire. We are distracting ourselves here and forming attachments.
The ideas and concepts are sources of attachment. Lineage and history are sources of attachment. We are self-governed sadhakas here, so we must coax ourselves to relinquish our grasp of these things.
Our views arise in dependence on the entire world of teachings. We are to develop these with pure hearts. Everyone agrees with the Buddhas teaching about "Right view... Right Concentration," which is meditation. Everyone agrees with the Buddha's view that desire is suffering and meditation is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. Everyone agrees that the middle way of not adhering to views is correct.
That's the whole pizza pie. There's no need to quibble about the toppings. We'll order the Supreme with everything. And each person can decide what to pick off and what to leave on. Bonissimo.
Love,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 31 2009 11:57:03 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 1:22:00 PM
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Jesus going to India has many facts to support it in certain areas of the himalayas and other parts of India. He was known as Isha there and was initiated into Yoga by a Nath guru of the Himalayas, who is connected with Babaji. He learned some of the Buddhist teachings while he was there and that is why you see correllations in the New Testament with Buddhist thought. Paramahansa Yogananda's book goes into a few details of this and is an excellent source of information.
I don't think it is that the rainbow body isn't the highest state, i just think that those that achieve it can choose to reincarnate again. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 4:57:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
Contrary to what Alwayson has been saying, the rainbow body is not the ultimate goal. There are many low and high rainbow bodies, but these are not indicative of no more birth. When the Buddha died there was no rainbow body.
TMS
As a supreme nirmankaya, Shakyamuni would not display rainbow body.
Ask your lama. Are you a buddhist student? Next thing you will tell me is that Buddha did not talk about the rainbow body in the Pali canon. lol |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 5:05:04 PM
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and gumpi, you can believe whatever you want
I suggest you stop trying to combine Christianity with Eastern systems. It is disrespectful to both systems.
Believe me, I wasted years doing this so I know where you guys come from.
http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutor...concept.html |
Edited by - alwayson on Jan 31 2009 7:15:11 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 7:09:06 PM
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Hey everyone,
Very interesting discussion! TMS I would echo your sentiment as well as Yogani's from a few posts ago; the back and forth about eldest/youngest, who influenced who, who said what first etc is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but at the end of the day doesn't much matter in terms of advancing on the spiritual path. After awhile starts to resonate a little bit of the my religion is more authentic than yours disagreements 
Christi I absolutely agree with your statement "The more we understand of different traditions, the more the walls between them fall away into emptiness." Personally, I enjoy drinking from the best of all traditions for ideas that provide additional insights that will be useful along the journey. And have been influenced strongly by a number of different masters in different traditions.
IMHO there is no One and Only Way. Just look at the fact that there are Self-Realized souls that have emerged out of many many of the great traditions, Hindu, Buddist, Sufi, Jewish, Christian, etc etc. If there were One and Only Way, this would not be the case. In fact, I don't even know if meditation is the One and Only Way. Personally, I find it to be an exceptionally helpful practice to accelerate my spiritual progress and think it is not given nearly the level of importance it should have in some traditions. But I'm sure there are many practices that lead to Self-Realization. In my view, Mother Teresa was an amazing example of a Self-Realized soul, but I'm not aware of her spending a lot of time focusing on meditative practices (daily prayer yes). But hers was a life of Karma Yoga. For others, it might be intense Bhakti and longing for God that results in illumination (the Sufi expression to the effect of if you desire enlightment as much as a drowning person desires air to will have it). I also seem to recall a story (but don't remember it exactly) of a woman that achieved enlightment, even though she spent most of her time as a cook in a Buddhist monestary. How? "I was very mindful stirring the rice".
So I don't think there is a One and Only Way; but I DO believe there are practices that dramatically accelerate our progress toward realization; which is why we are all here (I presume). For me personally, it has been the integrated methods of the AYP system. But for others it will clearly be different, depending on a variety of factors.
Hopefully didn't offend anyone in the string; just trying to pass along another viewpoint. 
Peace & Namaste,
Matt
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 8:21:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Jesus going to India has many facts to support it in certain areas of the himalayas and other parts of India. He was known as Isha there and was initiated into Yoga by a Nath guru of the Himalayas, who is connected with Babaji. He learned some of the Buddhist teachings while he was there and that is why you see correllations in the New Testament with Buddhist thought. Paramahansa Yogananda's book goes into a few details of this and is an excellent source of information.
I don't think it is that the rainbow body isn't the highest state, i just think that those that achieve it can choose to reincarnate again.
I met a monk who went to Ladakh to the monastery where these records were alleged to exist, and they don't. There is absolutely no proof that Jesus went to India. This is pure rumor. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 8:30:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
Contrary to what Alwayson has been saying, the rainbow body is not the ultimate goal. There are many low and high rainbow bodies, but these are not indicative of no more birth. When the Buddha died there was no rainbow body.
TMS
As a supreme nirmankaya, Shakyamuni would not display rainbow body.
Ask your lama. Are you a buddhist student? Next thing you will tell me is that Buddha did not talk about the rainbow body in the Pali canon. lol
Apparently, you are my lama. My lama said that the rainbow body is not equivalent to enlightenment. He said there are high and low rainbow bodies. Not everything is written in a book. You should consult a lama before making proclamations. Translations don't always convey the correct meanings. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Jan 31 2009 8:48:38 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 9:30:24 PM
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Hey AlwaysOn,
In defense of gumpi, I don't think combining Christianity with Eastern Systems necessarily disrespects either. Jesus is my "ishta" and the AYP practices appear to be "Eastern" in origin. Not sure who gets disrespected in that equation, although I'm sure someone will 
All spiritual truths are ultimately coming from the Source, the I AM, the Truth...maybe in the next thread we can spend a lot of time discussing who God learned it all from 
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2009 : 10:12:54 PM
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TMS,
Everyone knows there is two types of rainbow bodies (actually there are more than two). I said the same thing many times in the thogal thread months ago. I don't understand your point at all, so I cannot respond. |
Edited by - alwayson on Jan 31 2009 10:33:55 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 01:07:35 AM
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| Everyone knows that? I keep forgetting you are omniscient. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 01:09:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parallax
Hey AlwaysOn,
In defense of gumpi, I don't think combining Christianity with Eastern Systems necessarily disrespects either. Jesus is my "ishta" and the AYP practices appear to be "Eastern" in origin. Not sure who gets disrespected in that equation, although I'm sure someone will
All spiritual truths are ultimately coming from the Source, the I AM, the Truth...maybe in the next thread we can spend a lot of time discussing who God learned it all from
God? What's that? Never heard of it... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 04:55:38 AM
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Hi Parallax,
quote:
Very interesting discussion! TMS I would echo your sentiment as well as Yogani's from a few posts ago; the back and forth about eldest/youngest, who influenced who, who said what first etc is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but at the end of the day doesn't much matter in terms of advancing on the spiritual path. After awhile starts to resonate a little bit of the my religion is more authentic than yours disagreements
Yes, it is a useful discussion as an intellectual exercise, and also from a historical academic point of view. But much more importantly than that, it gives us the chance to see how many attachments we still have to certain views and concepts.
Attachments to conceptual formations (samskaras) are one of the major stumbling blocks on the spiritual path and one of the primary causes of suffering in the world. It does not matter if it is the attachment to the idea that meditation is the only path to divine realization, or attachment to the idea that one religion is better than another, or whatever. The object of the attachment is of little importance and can constantly change. It is the attachment itself which is the cause of suffering, or rather, identification with the attachment to the conceptualization.
This is one of the four Noble Truths in Buddhism and forms the basis of all the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha would have said that this form of suffering (dukkha) is caused by attachment (tanha) to mental formations (samskharas) due to ignorance (avidya).
Non-identification with the objects of the mind is freedom and is the beginning of a greater journey.
Christi
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 10:44:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Parallax,
quote:
Very interesting discussion! TMS I would echo your sentiment as well as Yogani's from a few posts ago; the back and forth about eldest/youngest, who influenced who, who said what first etc is interesting as an intellectual exercise, but at the end of the day doesn't much matter in terms of advancing on the spiritual path. After awhile starts to resonate a little bit of the my religion is more authentic than yours disagreements
Yes, it is a useful discussion as an intellectual exercise, and also from a historical academic point of view. But much more importantly than that, it gives us the chance to see how many attachments we still have to certain views and concepts.
Attachments to conceptual formations (samskaras) are one of the major stumbling blocks on the spiritual path and one of the primary causes of suffering in the world. It does not matter if it is the attachment to the idea that meditation is the only path to divine realization, or attachment to the idea that one religion is better than another, or whatever. The object of the attachment is of little importance and can constantly change. It is the attachment itself which is the cause of suffering, or rather, identification with the attachment to the conceptualization.
This is one of the four Noble Truths in Buddhism and forms the basis of all the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha would have said that this form of suffering (dukkha) is caused by attachment (tanha) to mental formations (samskharas) due to ignorance (avidya).
Non-identification with the objects of the mind is freedom and is the beginning of a greater journey.
Christi
Yes, indeed. Though it is not attachment or ignorance to say that meditation is the way. Meditation is the method to alleviate attachment to thought forms. Meditation is not a thought form.
[correction] Meditation/post-meditation are also thoughtforms and extremes to be transcended. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Feb 02 2009 3:53:31 PM |
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 11:55:59 AM
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TMS!
Haven't heard of God? Perhaps you've heard of No-Thing, the Void, Silence, The Now ...different names trying to describe the same thing
By the way my Mama's a Llama...but I'm not sure that's really helped me very much 
All of you are great! Love all of the viewpoints, but more importantly everyone's Bhakti is truly impressive!!
Peace!! |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2009 : 2:59:03 PM
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TMS,
you never replied to my last email regarding lama referral
Also I did find out about the deal with the gold writing on dark blue paper. Seems to be a common practice amongst all four schools in "amulet" creation |
Edited by - alwayson on Feb 01 2009 3:53:11 PM |
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The One & Only Way
