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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 18 2008 : 4:50:45 PM
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My answer is only from the Mahayana point of view.
For even within Mahayana there is sutra and tantra.
If you talk about Theravada, that is a whole other sotry |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2008 : 5:06:26 PM
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| I thought you were talking about Mahayana Sutra versus Mahayana tantra.....no Theravada anywhere |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2008 : 10:56:04 AM
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Okay I'm at the point of "Tantric Grounds and Paths" where the author describes the subtle wind as the subtle self that the Sutra people don't know about. It is described as eternal. p. 181.
This goes back to what I've been arguing with everyone about. This is a snag in the Mahayana and Vajra teachings and makes them more yogic than buddhist. According to the Buddha in the Sutras, nothing is eternal except emptiness, all phenomena are temporary and selfless (without an inherent nature due to interdependent causes), and there is no eternal self or soul.
However, based on the belief in this subtle self or soul, the vajra practitioner transforms into a deity, and that deity never dies.
Now I can understand the subtle winds, subtle minds and the clear light. I can also understand using a sexual consort to bypass conceptual thought, to turbo charge the process. I can also understand transforming into an idealized person or "deity" in this life to assist others with superior skill.
I must say that holding on to the worries of the next life is the wrong idea. The author says that it is because this subtle wind carries the imprints of our karma that we descend into hells or Pure Lands. I've certainly never worried about Hell or cared for Heaven. According to little stupid me, this is it. Whatever karmic imprints we cast into the world are born by others in the future.
The author describes Yogis who instead of taking a sexual consort as a means to obtain bliss and clear light mind, remain celibate, so they can obtain the clear light at death, and achieve godhood in the "intermediate state." Why? For me this is a highly sophisticated rendition of Judeo-Islamo-Christian superstition all over again.
The principle realization of enlightenment is that there is no distinction between self and other. We feel a single body since the beginning of time. I feel the hurt and delusions of pleasure I spin others into. I feel them; I feel hurt; I feel deluded and lost from stupid acts.
The worry and concern about past and future lives is a delusion, just like a soul, God, Heaven and Hell. Whatever threads and contents of what we are now that are passed on into the future and whatever are left behind are not who we are. What we are is much bigger than that. We are the stillness, the emptiness, the void. It is the source of creativity, that which makes us human.
I'll be going to the local Rinpoche who has just arrived from India. I'll see what he can help me understand. I may take up vajra practice, because it is a very sophisticated means of kundalini control. I also see the transformational practices as powerful and useful. The path of meditational creation of an ideal self in the simulated process of birth, death and rebirth feels like the path of the siddhas. I can see that using the subtlest aspect of mind to grasp emptiness is what overcomes the obstacles to omniscience. So this is worthwhile.
However, I'm wary, because like all of you have advised, I trust my heart and my experience in meditation. I KNOW from my experience that there is no self, no Self, no Purusha and no Ishvara. Maybe now there is, but not ultimately, not at the beginning or the end. I've seen Indra's Net. Consciousness subtle or otherwise is an emergent property of a vast number of elements and aggregates.
The author proclaims the folly of self-grasping, but then on p. 181 grasps at a subtle self to grasp at a deity self.
So far my realizations about methods are limited to those that lead to a direct experience of emptiness where the experience of selflessness causes an expanded identification will all as a co-creator. I would like to explore expanding my notion of co-creator using methods found in Highest Yoga Tantra.
Making another salad.
Ahh...
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Dec 20 2008 11:01:32 AM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2008 : 4:15:33 PM
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Answering myself: This Geshe Kelsang Gyatso turns out to be a rebel Tibetan who rejects the Dalai Lama and is basically excommunicated from the Gelug school. Not that that matters, other than this guy sees himself as an authority to himself. That's okay too, except instead of taking a syncretic approach, he takes a divergent approach. Clearly, on p. 181 of Tantric Grounds and Paths, his assertion that there is an eternal subtle self is unsupported anywhere else in Buddhist or tantric buddhist literature.
Whatever the subtle wind is that supports the clear light mind apprehending emptiness, it is not eternal, not a god self. It's a wind. What is wind? Moving air. Motion is not a thing; it's a state, an event, temporary. Whatever the clear light mind is, it is also not eternal, because it apparently depends on the subtle wind.
The very subtle "self" described here is an aggregate of a life force (a wind), and a subtle cognitive capacity (subtle mind) oriented to emptiness (while also contained within emptiness).
In direct opposition to what this so-called Geshe says, it is not because of future lives in heaven or hell that we must grasp a deity self in this life or at death; rather, we must do anything necessary to overcome grasping at any self to extinguish the root of suffering. Clearly, conjuring a deity or buddha self is an antidote to conjuring a deluded ordinary self. It's just a game to coax one into taking the leap through difficult meditative mental states similar to death.
Ultimately, the goal is non-grasping of any self. The goal being perfect clarity.
--TMS |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 01:38:12 AM
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Hi TMS,
I'm not sure if another book to read is what you are after, but "Secret of the Vajra World" by Reginald Ray is very good. From what I understood from it the Vajrayana path is like a refinement of enlightenment not something separate from Hinayana, Theravada, or Mahayana paths. It seems to have a lot in common with the Hindu Guru Kundalini system at least from what I could understand. Hope this is helpful.
Steve |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2008 : 08:37:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Hi TMS,
I'm not sure if another book to read is what you are after, but "Secret of the Vajra World" by Reginald Ray is very good. From what I understood from it the Vajrayana path is like a refinement of enlightenment not something separate from Hinayana, Theravada, or Mahayana paths. It seems to have a lot in common with the Hindu Guru Kundalini system at least from what I could understand. Hope this is helpful.
Steve
Hi Steven, Yes indeed another book read is not what I need. I've completed an in depth study into a Vajrayana. Today I go to a Rinpoche and ask some questions. If satisfied, I'll ask to start the "generation stage." Vajrayana is a set of tantric systems. What they describe as Highest Yoga Tantra involves kundalini yoga, specifically their "vase breathing" technique is similar to bastrika. It is modified to involve a fairly complex visualization process to get one "into" the chakras. Here on AYP, people describe seeing from inside the sushumna nadi, in Vajra people describe seeing from inside the chakras.
The "completion stage" involves loosing the "knot" at the heart chakra and simulating a death experience with the force of meditation. One should see various "lights" that from the meditator's perspective resemble vastness. Finally, there is a swoon in a blackness, and one awakens in a "clear light." One can only see this light so long as one has become aware of the "indestructible wind." This is the wind that remains in tact between lives, according to them. It's also known as the "subtle wind" upon which the subtle mind rides. When one has this experience, one can simulate rebirth by seeing emptiness as the "clear light." Non-duality arises because the "clear light" is both the emptiness and the awareness. When one rises from meditation, the fruits of repetitive visualization of an enlightened deity during the "generation stage" allows one to conjure an immortal spirit body of a buddha through which all beings everywhere will reach enlightenment. It also fixes the meditators deep seated tendency to grasp for inherent and permanent existence, one sees everything as "illusion-like" and such vision provides the basis for siddhis.
My debate arose because some Vajra writer who is well published and writes clearly stated that the subtle wind in this final meditative act is the "subtle self" that never dies. That struck me as deal-breaker from me and this tradition. Such a statement contradicts not only my experience, but would render all the statements of other vajra writers that everything is emptiness, impermanent and lacks inherent existence. I can't tolerate such clear contradictions.
Anyway, I read the "Guhuyasamaja Tantra" which is seen as a "root tantra" by everyone in this tradition, and what it said, essentially, was that all the three winds gather the three minds due to craving. These three winds and three minds are the three visions of light that the vajra yogi experiences in this process of simulating life, death and rebirth on the path of the "illusory body." It describes these winds and minds not as "selves" but I got the impression from the poetic language that the emptiness in moving in such and such fashion due to such and such craving causes the gathering capacity of mind.
In the subtlest function of mind, all that is gathered is light, blackness, redness and whiteness (from which a rainbow of all lights emanates).
quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
I think this is the beginning and the end. In the end God said, let the lights go out, and there was darkness, the earth was formless and empty. And God took a deep dreamless sleep in the waters, his mind was formless and empty, and his body was the deep.
Then God woke up and said, "I am I." The countless generations of this process have refined the initial craving into pure compassion, the selfless love of all possible beings who may experience the mind of enlightenment.
Ahh...
TMS
P.S. Did anyone else know about a species of lotus that can regulate it's own temperature like a mammal? It does so apparently to protect the insects that feed from it (which also pollinates it and allows it to grow). Also the seed of the lotus remains viable for thousands of years? This is an amazing fact; there is an enlightened flower. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Dec 21 2008 09:11:52 AM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2008 : 09:12:41 AM
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Hi TMS,
Just curious, but have you taken the bodhisattva vows as well? Also, I read in Reginald Ray's book that in the Tibetan monastic systems they required the monks to study the Hinayana and Mahayana systems for 25 years or so before they allowed to follow the Vajrayana path, which usually takes at least another 10-12 years as well. I'm not writing this to try and discourage you of course, but I was pretty amazed at the commitment required. I greatly admire your efforts.
Steve |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2008 : 8:58:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Hi TMS,
Just curious, but have you taken the bodhisattva vows as well? Also, I read in Reginald Ray's book that in the Tibetan monastic systems they required the monks to study the Hinayana and Mahayana systems for 25 years or so before they allowed to follow the Vajrayana path, which usually takes at least another 10-12 years as well. I'm not writing this to try and discourage you of course, but I was pretty amazed at the commitment required. I greatly admire your efforts.
Steve
Hi Steve,
I met the Lama and he just wanted me to take three weeks before deciding whether to "take refuge" and whether I would request him to be my lama. He seemed to be happy with my level of knowledge. In fact, he wants me to move beyond knowledge. He's a Kagyu Mahamudra meditation master up to the Six Yogas of Naropa which is a variant of kundalini yoga.
It's very similar to Dzogchen. There's an incredible beauty to this world; it resonates deeply. There's a de-emphasis on book learning. He has little respect for vast reading. He says that the practice of forming this relationship has been greatly liberalized, but he is not for that much liberalization. He believes in a strict course of practice.
He told me to become acquainted only with the book "The Jewel Ornament of Liberation" by Gampopa and poem Tilopa by the Ganga which I found online here --> http://www.dharmafellowship.org/lib...ganga-ma.htm. These are the only preparatory books he requires.
During the short time I meditated with him I could sense chakra activity in a different way than what I was used to. It's very soft and subtle energy.
He guides meditation according to some mantras and visualizations; then, he says to relax in emptiness with no attachment; then, he prodded to ask questions. There were only three others in the group.
Apparently he is one of the few Lamas in the US who is certified to guide a 3 year retreat.
He's just arrived in the US. He's basically offering me to be his pupil and in exchange I will be charged with transcribing his teachings, his curriculum, I suppose. He also wants help developing a retreat location in California; which wild because I had already been scoping out a site near Mt. Shasta.
It turns out that this tradition originates in the region of India where my father is from, what was once called Ghandara. I've studied recently also about the Greek kings in western India who were the early teachers of buddhism. Very cool.
I love the flow and uncertainty of life. It's like being on a ride.
Ahhh...
TMS |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2008 : 08:32:04 AM
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| That's fantastic. I've been around Mt. Shasta many times and I think it would make a great location for a meditation retreat. It is a very sacred area for the Native Americans as you probably already know. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 01:02:02 AM
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Hi TMS,
quote:
Okay I'm at the point of "Tantric Grounds and Paths" where the author describes the subtle wind as the subtle self that the Sutra people don't know about. It is described as eternal. p. 181.
This goes back to what I've been arguing with everyone about. This is a snag in the Mahayana and Vajra teachings and makes them more yogic than buddhist. According to the Buddha in the Sutras, nothing is eternal except emptiness, all phenomena are temporary and selfless (without an inherent nature due to interdependent causes), and there is no eternal self or soul.
The Buddha encouraged direct perception of reality. He said that if you watch everything very carefully, either with the external senses, or with the mind alone, you would see that nothing has the inherent nature of a lasting self. In other words, he said that there is nothing in the phenomenal universe that can be called a permanent self. This is the teaching of anatta, as taught by the Buddha. When the Buddha was talking about the nature of all phenomena as being inherently devoid of self, he was talking about the universe of the senses and the mind. The Buddha said that beyond the mind lies the unconditioned, the unborn, the undying, the uncreated... that which is eternal.... our true nature. Our true nature is the Self of all.
Realization of That which is beyond the mind, is the realization of Dharma (truth). This is one aspect of enlightenment, which results in bliss, and the perception of the unity of all things. Another aspect of enlightenment is the transformation of the physical body, of which the awakening of kundalini is one aspect. The awakening of kundalini leads to the rise of ecstatic conductivity within the body, and eventually to whole body ecstasy, ecstatic radiance, and the merging of bliss and ecstasy in the heart. Divine love is the creation of this merging of bliss and ecstasy as it flows out into the world in all directions.
It is possible to experience the unity of all existence beyond the mind, and to experience our true nature without kundalini being awakened. But if that happened, the resting of our Self in our true nature for some time will bring about the awakening of kundalini anyway. Then the process of transformation will continue.
Even the creation of divine love in the heart is not the end of the enlightenment process. This is simply because it is not possible for one person to become fully enlightened until everyone in the world is enlightened. Just as we realize that we are not separate from everyone else, so we realize that our fates are intimately connected. This is why the Tibetan Buddhists take the Bodhisattva vow. They vow to continue taking birth after birth in order to continue working for the emancipation of all beings until every last person is free from suffering.
Theravadan Buddhism does not have a well developed understanding of the higher levels of enlightenment. It goes as far as the realization of emptiness, the transcendence of the separate self, and the realization of pure bliss consciousness. This is why Mahayana Buddhism was developed, to take over from where Theravada Buddhism left off. Mahayana Buddhism covers the role that the winds play in the transformation process. In Yoga we call the winds prana (which literally means wind in Sanskrit). Mahayana Buddhism also covers the merging of the drops in the heart (the creation of the pure light of bliss and of divine love), the transformation of the body into light (the vajra body), and the understanding that enlightenment beyond the realization of transendental consciousness is not an individual process but a collective process.
Personally I find that the more time I spend in silence (internal silence) the more I find that philosophical arguments between different Buddhist schools begin to lose their importance. It is simply a play of the mind, which the mind can use to send us in circles that never end. I agree with Carson, practices are the key, because it is only spiritual practices, which can take us beyond the mind.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 31 2008 05:50:10 AM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2008 : 09:48:47 AM
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I really enjoyed your post, Christi.
Thank you 
quote:
Even the creation of divine love in the heart is not the end of the enlightenment process. This is simply because it is not possible for one person to become fully enlightened until everyone in the world is enlightened.
Yes....and the inner pull towards service....is all about this. Self addressing Self in all. And service is expressed in so many ways.....there are so many ways to touch the heart of "another". Every time this touch happens we are enlightened - person or no person, ego or no ego, young or old, experienced or not. There is no difference between the one receiving and the one seemingly giving. We are both receiving the Joy and the Love of Self - which is enlightenment.
A few days before Christmas....I was sitting at work, restoring some lists and getting some invoicing done....and a grandmother (who does not work there) came in with her grandchild....a girl about 3 years old. She was due at a meeting....and had nowhere to "park" the child. She told the girl to sit outside the office down the hall, and then she left....
Many people walked by.....some spoke to the girl....she said nothing. After about 7 min she was bored stiff *laughing*....I was watching her from my seat about 20 meters away (I am in an open landscape at work)....I (the mind:-) knew that the instant I spoke to her, I would have no peace for the next hour or two.....and I had so much to do!  So I kept quiet...*laughing*....and stopped looking at her (difficult...because she was so cute:-)
It took the girl 10 min to work up the courage to come to where I was sitting. None of us spoke. We just looked at each other - going about our business (basically "my business" that is :-) And then finally she started talking.....a hundred questions just poured out of her....*laughing*....anyway, to make a long story short (maybe too late for that already... )I ended up taking her to the bathroom...and then...seeing how tired she was (you know...pulling her ear....finger in eye)....I offered to put her on a bench down the hall...covering her with a blanket and her little "Puddle" (the toy sheep she had with her). She politely declined, saying she wanted her "trolley" (I don't know what you call it....the thing with wheels that you transport children in). Her grandmother came just then, and got it for her....I could hear her sternly telling the girl to sleep outside the office door down the hall. Grandmother gone ...the girl spent 10 min (a few centimeters at a time) to finally park the "pram" about one inch off my right hand by the computer *laughing*. Neither of us spoke. Then she finally sat down, and I very softly sang "Shivoham Shivoham" to her (you know...the song Shanti recently gave us in a topic here)
She looked at me with big, big eyes....(she interrupted only once...to inquire the name of the song)......repeating "Shivoham" to herself once in a while so as not to forget. People kept walking buy in the perifery, she and I were one in the song....it went on for a long, long time.....a long time after she fell asleep.......
And I came out of it having received the most wonderful healing ever. That little 3 year old was the best satguru....
Totally her Self. Totally present. Totally self-less, and though questions were there, totally silent inside. And the Peace of "her" is still here. It never left
Enlightenment and Service is one and the same - non ending - in all directions. Fathomless.....bottomless....limitless
quote:
Personally I find that the more time I spend in silence (internal silence) the more I find that philosophical arguments between different Buddhist schools begin to lose their importance.
Yes.......philosophical viewpoints is not what it boils down to..is it....
To be quiet is everything in a nutshell....
To let what comes come and what goes go. To speak or move when called and to stay still when not.
All the time staying here...in the Silence that always is
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 06:27:23 AM
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Hi TMS
Thank you for all your contributions
My knowledge of spiritual scriptures is very thin, so I cannot engage in this debate on these terms....but:
quote:
it is not because of future lives in heaven or hell that we must grasp a deity self in this life or at death; rather, we must do anything necessary to overcome grasping at any self to extinguish the root of suffering.
Well....the way I experience it......what I call Self.....is that which is completely still at all times, yet as this stillnes at the same time enjoying everything that is taking place. Loving absolutely everything. But this....that is the same as the enjoying itself........is not itself doing anything. For years and years I thought that I was the doer. That what I thought "i" was.....this identity....this identification.....was the doer.
Then - gradually - as the meditation practise and the self-inquiry went on and on....it became more and more evident that "i" was not the doer. And I concluded therefore....that something else was. Something that was much bigger than "i".
But this conclusion was a mental.....deduction. It was the best the mind could do. To acknowledge its own limit.
Whenever "forgotten".....the mind rises again to make sense of it all.
But.....experiencing....... as the clarity of consciousness is all there is......when this....loving-enjoying is all there is.......when the smiling inside comes out as a sparkle through the eyes....well, THIS is not doing anything either.
Noone ever did anything!
It is all a spontanious outflow.....or "happening", if you like.
This is Self.
Or you could say: THIS is THIS. Same same. Name matters not.
It resembles not at all any kind of previously experienced self. Simply because there is no experiencer. There is noone here. And yet: Iam
It is not an experience of anything. It is just loving-enjoying.
quote:
we must do anything necessary to overcome grasping at any self to extinguish the root of suffering.
........the only thing necessary is to realize that nothing can be grasped by that which thinks itself into existence. The self ("i") is itself a thought from which the whole kostebinderi (sorry......Norwegian word.....meaning..."the whole party"...or "all content in the house") rises....... to be lost in - if not aware.
Nothing can be done to overcome self. The instant this misconception/volition....... is acted out....the Self/THIS.....is obscured. Noone can extinguish the root of suffering. There is noone here to do that. The only extinguisher is that of Silence itself:
Self
And it is never doing anything - yet the whole wonderful world comes from it. Not to be lost in......simply to be enjoyed. If not manipulated with....it is perceived as Beauty itself.
So....
The crux is to be Quiet.
Meditation is a gem for This. In my experience...the only "doing" that made me quiet was meditation. If your experience is different....go by whatever makes you Quiet. To be Quiet is It.
And - like you say - the rise of Kundalini (ecstatic conductivity) enables greater perception of This. That too dissolves doubts. (Which is the main reason why mind is always active beyond its own good )
And when Silence emerges within to stay between sittings....then self-inquiry will "do" the rest. Released into Self.....all is still.....
As it is
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2008 : 07:40:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Even the creation of divine love in the heart is not the end of the enlightenment process. This is simply because it is not possible for one person to become fully enlightened until everyone in the world is enlightened. Just as we realize that we are not separate from everyone else, so we realize that our fates are intimately connected. This is why the Tibetan Buddhists take the Bodhisattva vow. They vow to continue taking birth after birth in order to continue working for the emancipation of all beings until every last person is free from suffering.
Christy
the entire post is very beautiful. Makes me understand... It feels rarely natural to follow your thoughts.
Thank you for your guidance,
Roman |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2008 : 12:35:22 AM
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TMS
The cause of enlightenment *can be* (no one knows for sure) your strong bhakti, or devotion, you can practice meditation here, or in the Siddha Yoga or wherever, I mean is not the AYP, but your bhakti, or devotion that causes the process (very long) of enlightenment.
Carson,
Kundalini symptoms are known since a short time ago, maybe we are labelling the symptoms, and creating something that doesn't exist, I mean look at the saints, they haven't felt any symptoms,(at least recorded) and if you look at Theresa d'Avila, the levitation was a fruit, not a symptom of the K energy. the enlightenment has another symptoms as you call them, but are not physical, are from the self.
(just my humble opinion)
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TMS,
I don't have the "answer" (personally I don't think anyone really has THE answer) but I would like to state for the record that kundalini/bliss is not a "cause" but an "effect". Just incase that wasn't clear. And I don't think that kundalini (which is basically just "kundalini symptoms" because once there are no obstructions left in the nervous system kundalini is refined to a point where you don't get "symptoms" anymore persay) is a prerequisite for "enlightenment"...at least not "kundalini symptoms" anyways. Hope this helps a little.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson! Thank you, Carson. Indeed this does help. So bliss consciousness is the result of enlightenment? What is the cause of enlightenment?
TMS
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2008 : 10:20:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by neli
Carson,
Kundalini symptoms are known since a short time ago, maybe we are labelling the symptoms, and creating something that doesn't exist, I mean look at the saints, they haven't felt any symptoms,(at least recorded) and if you look at Theresa d'Avila, the levitation was a fruit, not a symptom of the K energy. the enlightenment has another symptoms as you call them, but are not physical, are from the self.
(just my humble opinion)
Hi Neli,
Actually Theresa d'Avila had LOTS of kundalini symptoms as far asI understand it. In fact she thought that if anyone knew what was happening to her she would be labelled as crazy and be persecuted for what she was experiencing. At least that is what I have read, but that isn't a ton so...take it for what it is. All I was saying Neli is that kundalini symptoms are not necessary in order to progress along the "enlightenment path". I'm sure there have been many "enlightened" people who never exerienced "kundalini symptoms".
Love,
Carson |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2008 : 02:15:30 AM
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Carson,
What I understand of what I have read, is that Theresa d'Avila had a lot of fruits of enlighenment, one of them was levitation, ecstasies, but I don't consider them kundalini symptoms, unless these "symptoms" are part of the enlightenment path. I mean what you call symptoms I call them *fruits*, and we enjoy the fruits, we don't reject fruits, cause a tree without fruits is a death tree.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by neli
Carson,
Kundalini symptoms are known since a short time ago, maybe we are labelling the symptoms, and creating something that doesn't exist, I mean look at the saints, they haven't felt any symptoms,(at least recorded) and if you look at Theresa d'Avila, the levitation was a fruit, not a symptom of the K energy. the enlightenment has another symptoms as you call them, but are not physical, are from the self.
(just my humble opinion)
Hi Neli,
Actually Theresa d'Avila had LOTS of kundalini symptoms as far asI understand it. In fact she thought that if anyone knew what was happening to her she would be labelled as crazy and be persecuted for what she was experiencing. At least that is what I have read, but that isn't a ton so...take it for what it is. All I was saying Neli is that kundalini symptoms are not necessary in order to progress along the "enlightenment path". I'm sure there have been many "enlightened" people who never exerienced "kundalini symptoms".
Love,
Carson
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2009 : 05:49:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The Buddha encouraged direct perception of reality. He said that if you watch everything very carefully, either with the external senses, or with the mind alone, you would see that nothing has the inherent nature of a lasting self. In other words, he said that there is nothing in the phenomenal universe that can be called a permanent self. This is the teaching of anatta, as taught by the Buddha. When the Buddha was talking about the nature of all phenomena as being inherently devoid of self, he was talking about the universe of the senses and the mind. The Buddha said that beyond the mind lies the unconditioned, the unborn, the undying, the uncreated... that which is eternal.... our true nature. Our true nature is the Self of all.
Realization of That which is beyond the mind, is the realization of Dharma (truth). This is one aspect of enlightenment, which results in bliss, and the perception of the unity of all things. Another aspect of enlightenment is the transformation of the physical body, of which the awakening of kundalini is one aspect. The awakening of kundalini leads to the rise of ecstatic conductivity within the body, and eventually to whole body ecstasy, ecstatic radiance, and the merging of bliss and ecstasy in the heart. Divine love is the creation of this merging of bliss and ecstasy as it flows out into the world in all directions.
It is possible to experience the unity of all existence beyond the mind, and to experience our true nature without kundalini being awakened. But if that happened, the resting of our Self in our true nature for some time will bring about the awakening of kundalini anyway. Then the process of transformation will continue.
Even the creation of divine love in the heart is not the end of the enlightenment process. This is simply because it is not possible for one person to become fully enlightened until everyone in the world is enlightened. Just as we realize that we are not separate from everyone else, so we realize that our fates are intimately connected. This is why the Tibetan Buddhists take the Bodhisattva vow. They vow to continue taking birth after birth in order to continue working for the emancipation of all beings until every last person is free from suffering.
Theravadan Buddhism does not have a well developed understanding of the higher levels of enlightenment. It goes as far as the realization of emptiness, the transcendence of the separate self, and the realization of pure bliss consciousness. This is why Mahayana Buddhism was developed, to take over from where Theravada Buddhism left off. Mahayana Buddhism covers the role that the winds play in the transformation process. In Yoga we call the winds prana (which literally means wind in Sanskrit). Mahayana Buddhism also covers the merging of the drops in the heart (the creation of the pure light of bliss and of divine love), the transformation of the body into light (the vajra body), and the understanding that enlightenment beyond the realization of transendental consciousness is not an individual process but a collective process.
Personally I find that the more time I spend in silence (internal silence) the more I find that philosophical arguments between different Buddhist schools begin to lose their importance. It is simply a play of the mind, which the mind can use to send us in circles that never end. I agree with Carson, practices are the key, because it is only spiritual practices, which can take us beyond the mind.
Christi
Hi Christi,
I like your analysis and would like to believe you are correct.
I have a further question for you that has bothered me for some time about The Buddha's teachings, if I understand what his instructions were. It's my impression that The Buddha said mantras and all yoga practices like pranayama, mudras, asanas, shatkarmas,etc were irrelevant. Why did The Buddha steer people away from these practices that we clearly find so useful? The spiritual task that we face as human beings would seem almost impossible without using any and all methods we might benefit from, like advanced yoga practices. Was he just so advanced that to him, these practices were irrelevant? Besides, he practiced yoga for a number of years, prior to his Bodhi tree experiences, so what does that say? |
Edited by - Neptune on Jan 01 2009 10:30:29 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2009 : 07:40:33 AM
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quote:
Hi Christi,
I like your analysis and would like to believe you are correct.
I have a further question for you that has bothered me for some time about The Buddha's teachings, if I understand what his instructions were. It's my impression that The Buddha said mantras and all yoga practices like pranayama, mudras, asanas, shatkarmas,etc were irrelevant. Why did The Buddha steer people away from these practices that we clearly find so useful? The spiritual task that we face as human beings would seem almost impossible without using any and all methods we might benefit from, like advanced yoga practices. Was he just so advanced that to him, these practices were irrelevant? Besides, he practiced yoga for a number of years, prior to his Bodhi tree experiences, so what does that say?
Hi Neptune,
Yes, you are right. The Buddha did practice Yoga for many years before his enlightenment. He had several teachers and did many austere practices to purify his body and mind. Amongst these he did periods of long fasting. He reached a point where he felt that the practices he and his fellow ascetics were doing were not bringing him to the place of peace, and to the ending of suffering that he sought. At this point he gave up most of his practices and practiced only meditation (dyana yoga) and self-inquiry (jnyana yoga), which he called vipassana. He also practiced a very rigid code of conduct (what we call yamas).
Through these two principle practices and his strong vinaya (code of conduct) he transcended egoic consciosness and found the bliss and peace that he had sought for so many years. It is very common for yogis to begin with strong purification practices (Hatha Yoga), and to end up practicing only Dyana yoga (meditation) and Jnyana yoga (self-inquiry) once much of the purification work is over. The Buddha was not alone in this respect.
Once he had reached this stage of enlightenment, he decided to go out and teach. He taught an open system of spiritual practice that was available to anyone who wanted to learn. This means that people who were taught it were then free to teach others. There was no vow of secrecy involved as there is with many yogic teachings in the East. In order to make the system safe for everyone, the Buddha left out many of the practices which could be dangerous energetically. This included the use of mantras as meditation objects, and all kinds of pranayama. He also did not include any chakra visualizations as these can also be dangerous if not taught properly.
Effectively, the Buddha was doing 2500 years ago what Yogani is doing today. He was creating an effective combination of spiritual practices which could be safely practiced by anybody, and which could be easily transmitted around the world. Jesus Christ did the same thing 500 years later.
Christi
p.s A smiley face from my daughter.
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2009 : 11:58:04 AM
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Christi,
Thanks for your reply. It seems to me that The Buddha was not preaching what he practiced. He did all the yogas, achieved transformation, then told the world to not do the practices that had been so effective at transforming him. He didn't realize that all the yogas he had done for years had been essential to get where he got. That what seems so obvious. There is always a delay between the yoga practices and their effects on our system. Even fasting is the same way. The effects energetically do not occur until one resumes eating again. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2009 : 11:59:01 AM
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Neptune said:
It's my impression that The Buddha said mantras and all yoga practices like pranayama, mudras, asanas, shatkarmas,etc were irrelevant.
Hello Neptune and any others interested,
I'm not even a minor scholar of Buddhism at all but I do like to pick up some interesting nuggets here and there. Did Buddha really say such a thing in the buddhist 'canon' and where? Would anyone be able to give me a reference to those writings?
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2009 : 12:28:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi TMS,
The Buddha encouraged direct perception of reality. He said that if you watch everything very carefully, either with the external senses, or with the mind alone, you would see that nothing has the inherent nature of a lasting self. In other words, he said that there is nothing in the phenomenal universe that can be called a permanent self. This is the teaching of anatta, as taught by the Buddha. When the Buddha was talking about the nature of all phenomena as being inherently devoid of self, he was talking about the universe of the senses and the mind. The Buddha said that beyond the mind lies the unconditioned, the unborn, the undying, the uncreated... that which is eternal.... our true nature. Our true nature is the Self of all.
Christi
This is so wrong!
Buddhist enlightenment means freedom from extremes, because there is NO REALITY.
You are suggesting there is a reality beyond where there is freedom from extremes, such as the Hindu concept of Brahman. This is a common error.
There is NO reality. There is NO ultimate.
The "ultimate" is awakening (through rainbow body).....that is all. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2009 : 12:21:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by neli
Carson,
What I understand of what I have read, is that Theresa d'Avila had a lot of fruits of enlighenment, one of them was levitation, ecstasies, but I don't consider them kundalini symptoms, unless these "symptoms" are part of the enlightenment path. I mean what you call symptoms I call them *fruits*, and we enjoy the fruits, we don't reject fruits, cause a tree without fruits is a death tree.
Neli
Hi Neli,
You say tomAto I say tomAHto. What you are talking about is sematics to me. (meaning I don't necessarily see "symptoms" as negative like you seem to.)
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 05 2009 3:07:05 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2009 : 5:43:14 PM
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Another thing I would like to mention is that
samsara = nirvana |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2009 : 11:33:15 AM
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alwayson, apart from the last bit, 'our true nature. Our true nature is the Self of all.', which is an interpretation which makes a bridge between Buddhism and Yoga (and a pretty solid one IMO), I think Christi is practically reading from the buddhist canon, up to the inevitable vaguaries of translation.
These other things you are saying, like there is 'NO reality', and 'samsara = nirvana', are I believe simply instructional strategies which developed in certain schools of buddhism at certain points; neither contradictory with anything Christi said when they are properly understood, nor even to be understood as propositions with logical meaning. (What does it mean that there is no reality? What does reality even mean if there is none?). Their meaning is motivational, not logical; they are psychological, not logical. The psychological effect they are supposed to produce is in the context of the instructional system in which they are developed. Their function is more like that of imperatives than of logical statements; samsara=nirvana has the same function as 'surrender, there is nothing to be gained!'. Indeed, it only has that psychological function after the meanings of samsara and nirvana are learned as distinct!
Having an cross-traditional discussion will always be difficult. One of the keys though is to, as far as possible, be aware of the contexts, meanings, semantics, and instructional strategies of your own tradition and perspective and understand that they are relative and can't be usefully imposed on anyone else.
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 06 2009 : 1:20:41 PM
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respectively, I am much more versed in Buddhism than you.
None, of what you say is accurate. |
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