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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 08:33:38 AM
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Hi Team,
I'm hoping you all can help me clear some things up. Different people say they have the one and only way, but I can't figure out who's right.
For example, Yogani doesn't say that he has the one and only way, but this path of yoga states that without an awakened Kundalini (or at least some bliss consciousness), there's no enlightenment (bliss + stillness?)
The Buddha says that his way is the "one and only way," namely shamatha and vipassana, AKA, concentration meditation (like mantra) and insight into emptiness meditation (observing the mind as emptiness). In the Sutras, the Buddha describes Nirvana simply as "the end of stress." The Sutra group states that kundalini is a distraction, leading to imbalance.
Then, the Tibetans say that the Sutra path didn't receive the whispered teachings of the Buddha, that without (1) kundalini bliss + a dharma trained sexual consort, (2) seeing the mind as emptiness according to Nagarjuna and (3) the conjuring of an illusory body (or a rainbow body) there is no enlightenment. The Vajra group says that the Sutra group misunderstands enlightenment to mean gross consciousness apprehending emptiness. The Vajra group holds enlightenment is really the subtle mind of "meaning clear light" apprehending emptiness (and this can only be accomplished with a sexual consort or at death).
So who's right? And before we jump to the conclusion that they are all right in different ways (which is what I would like to be able to do very much), is it possible to reconcile the FACT that the Sutra people and the Yoga/Vajra people say the other is WRONG about what each describes as an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT of the path to enlightenment?
Thank you.
Respect and blessings,
TMS
P.S., The Vajra people specifically say that the Sutra people don't get it, and the Sutra people say that the Yoga/Vajra people don't get it. I've been reading from Lama Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tsonghapa, the Sutrayana, Theravada writers like Bikkhu Buddhadasa and Jack Kornfield, Yogani and other Yoga writers. I'm not talking about the views of one teacher versus another; I'm talking about one system versus another.
You all are a very serious group, well versed and learned. Please help. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Dec 16 2008 08:48:20 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 08:44:02 AM
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Wow, your name is appropriate.
There is no "correct" way.
Jesus said he was the only way. For the people he was talking to, he was right. They didn't have the internet and vast libraries like we do.
There is only one way for certain people, at certain times.
But never for everyone, always.
This is self evident by enlightened people coming from a multitude of different traditions. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 08:52:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Wow, your name is appropriate.
There is no "correct" way.
Jesus said he was the only way. For the people he was talking to, he was right. They didn't have the internet and vast libraries like we do.
There is only one way for certain people, at certain times.
But never for everyone, always.
This is self evident by enlightened people coming from a multitude of different traditions.
Hi Etherfish, Okay. I'm aware of the "no one way," which is another way of saying everyone is right. So I take it that according to you kundalini is not required for enlightenment? Because if there is no one way, then the Sutra people could also be right?
BTW I'm not saying there is only one way, I'm saying that other enlightened people like the Buddha are saying that.
I only believe that there is one commonality. That's another topic.
Thanks,
TMS |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Dec 16 2008 09:13:39 AM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 09:28:40 AM
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I think different practices, different paths bring about different symptoms. Maybe somebody won't have any dramatic kundalini symptoms at all. But the englightenment process continues towards refinement of sensory perception, which is understanding identified perception on all levels and which is also kundalini. So it's mostly how you divide up the development of the person, of perception, nervous system.
The AYP approach to this is that you will find the truth inside your own nervous system - in other words, the guru is in you. Why do you need anyone's opinion on these matters? Isn't it best to look within yourself? Not project the guru that is within you outwards. And if you do as we all do when we need to, at least do it with awareness that any final decision that you make about anything is ultimately made within you.
All these paths are valid to the degree their practitioners can benefit from them and to the degree these systems facilitate their own transformation. Why bother with analyzing all these differences? It may be useful, but only if you use this knowledge creatively, to do some good.
These things won't be resolved until the person has lived them through and has known the truth of them in their own experience.
:) |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 09:48:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tadeas
I think different practices, different paths bring about different symptoms. Maybe somebody won't have any dramatic kundalini symptoms at all. But the englightenment process continues towards refinement of sensory perception, which is understanding identified perception on all levels and which is also kundalini. So it's mostly how you divide up the development of the person, of perception, nervous system.
The AYP approach to this is that you will find the truth inside your own nervous system - in other words, the guru is in you. Why do you need anyone's opinion on these matters? Isn't it best to look within yourself? Not project the guru that is within you outwards. And if you do as we all do when we need to, at least do it with awareness that any final decision that you make about anything is ultimately made within you.
All these paths are valid to the degree their practitioners can benefit from them and to the degree these systems facilitate their own transformation. Why bother with analyzing all these differences? It may be useful, but only if you use this knowledge creatively, to do some good.
These things won't be resolved until the person has lived them through and has known the truth of them in their own experience.
:)
Hi Tadeas, Thank you for commenting. I understand look within for the truth and judge from my own experience. I appreciate that.
I don't understand what you mean by enlightenment. "englightenment process continues towards refinement of sensory perception, which is understanding identified perception on all levels and which is also kundalini..."
Do I take you to mean that bliss consciousness of kundalini is not required? Because that is not the AYP approach. AYP is tantric and bliss/kundalini is part of the process. Unless, I'm missing something. I'm looking here http://www.aypsite.org/35.html.
Thank you.
TMS |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 10:39:27 AM
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Hi TMS,
I don't have the "answer" (personally I don't think anyone really has THE answer) but I would like to state for the record that kundalini/bliss is not a "cause" but an "effect". Just incase that wasn't clear. And I don't think that kundalini (which is basically just "kundalini symptoms" because once there are no obstructions left in the nervous system kundalini is refined to a point where you don't get "symptoms" anymore persay) is a prerequisite for "enlightenment"...at least not "kundalini symptoms" anyways. Hope this helps a little.
Love,
Carson |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 10:46:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TMS,
I don't have the "answer" (personally I don't think anyone really has THE answer) but I would like to state for the record that kundalini/bliss is not a "cause" but an "effect". Just incase that wasn't clear. And I don't think that kundalini (which is basically just "kundalini symptoms" because once there are no obstructions left in the nervous system kundalini is refined to a point where you don't get "symptoms" anymore persay) is a prerequisite for "enlightenment"...at least not "kundalini symptoms" anyways. Hope this helps a little.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson! Thank you, Carson. Indeed this does help. So bliss consciousness is the result of enlightenment? What is the cause of enlightenment?
TMS |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 11:39:38 AM
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Practices |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 11:45:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Practices
I understand you to mean views are not required. Which practices are required? Are all AYP practices required? |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 12:05:04 PM
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I was thinking about this after I wrote my above posting knowing that you would ask this, and my answer is: whatever practices resonate with you at the time. At one point it was Kriya practices that were doing it for me...then they weren't and I found AYP and AYP DM and SBP were "it" for me....then samyama was added to the list of needed practices....then it was taken off...then SBP was taken off and all I was resonating with was DM. Then I was deeply resonating with the Tantra practices for a while. I think it is important to feel for yourself which practices are necessary, and I feel it is important to stay somewhat focused on this as what practices are necessary can change rapidly at any time. Or at least this is my experience. This is why the concept of AYP "SELF"-pacing is so stressed here. Because only YOU can know what practices you are resonating deeply with and which ones are "pushing you over the top" at any given time. And it is always changing. So in my opinion TMS, stop thinking about this with you mind...stop trying to find the right process with your mind, and follow your heart. YOU will know which practices are necessary, not me. Love you man.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 16 2008 12:07:35 PM |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 12:06:46 PM
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quote:
I understand you to mean views are not required. Which practices are required? Are all AYP practices required?
Hi, I think views are again more of an effect of the practices, something that will adjust itself as you practice. Technically the only "required" practice in AYP is deep meditation as everything else is built on that. The other practices are for greatly speeding up and balancing the purification process. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 12:32:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I was thinking about this after I wrote my above posting knowing that you would ask this, and my answer is: whatever practices resonate with you at the time. At one point it was Kriya practices that were doing it for me...then they weren't and I found AYP and AYP DM and SBP were "it" for me....then samyama was added to the list of needed practices....then it was taken off...then SBP was taken off and all I was resonating with was DM. Then I was deeply resonating with the Tantra practices for a while. I think it is important to feel for yourself which practices are necessary, and I feel it is important to stay somewhat focused on this as what practices are necessary can change rapidly at any time. Or at least this is my experience. This is why the concept of AYP "SELF"-pacing is so stressed here. Because only YOU can know what practices you are resonating deeply with and which ones are "pushing you over the top" at any given time. And it is always changing. So in my opinion TMS, stop thinking about this with you mind...stop trying to find the right process with your mind, and follow your heart. YOU will know which practices are necessary, not me. Love you man.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson, Indeed my heart is guiding me deeper into esoteric tantra. I believe my next step is to remain aware during subtle appearances to directly perceive emptiness with all the kundalini withdrawn into the heart drop. I love you too, Carson.
TMS |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 12:32:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tadeas
quote:
I understand you to mean views are not required. Which practices are required? Are all AYP practices required?
Hi, I think views are again more of an effect of the practices, something that will adjust itself as you practice. Technically the only "required" practice in AYP is deep meditation as everything else is built on that. The other practices are for greatly speeding up and balancing the purification process.
HI Tadeas, Yes. This is so. Thank you.
TMS |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 1:11:14 PM
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Hi TMS,
quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
Indeed my heart is guiding me deeper into esoteric tantra. I believe my next step is to remain aware during subtle appearances to directly perceive emptiness with all the kundalini withdrawn into the heart drop.
Sounds like you got this all sewn up then! Dare I say....problem solved?
Love,
Carson
P.S. I think when the Buddha said his way is the "one and only way," he was meaning "the one and only way for him". Who knows for sure? |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 16 2008 1:14:41 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 1:37:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi TMS,
quote:
Originally posted by themysticseeker
Indeed my heart is guiding me deeper into esoteric tantra. I believe my next step is to remain aware during subtle appearances to directly perceive emptiness with all the kundalini withdrawn into the heart drop.
Sounds like you got this all sewn up then! Dare I say....problem solved?
Love,
Carson
P.S. I think when the Buddha said his way is the "one and only way," he was meaning "the one and only way for him". Who knows for sure?
Hi Carson, More like door opened. I don't think the Buddha meant that; he meant that emptiness and dependent arising together for the one correct view, and samatha and vipassana form the way to see it. AYP meditation suffices to form both samatha (mantra) and vipassana (DM).
Love,
TMS |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 2:03:30 PM
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Hi TMS,
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I think when the Buddha said his way is the "one and only way," he was meaning "the one and only way for him".
Maybe if the Buddha knew everything (like me, haha) he would have said this! Just kidding.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 16 2008 2:09:40 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 2:35:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tadeas
quote:
I understand you to mean views are not required. Which practices are required? Are all AYP practices required?
Hi, I think views are again more of an effect of the practices, something that will adjust itself as you practice. Technically the only "required" practice in AYP is deep meditation as everything else is built on that. The other practices are for greatly speeding up and balancing the purification process.
What is caused by the practice of meditation sped up by the purification process?
Vajra group states that bliss is caused by the wisdom of emptiness. I think this comports with AYP where bliss and stillness are composite?
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 6:22:01 PM
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TMS: It's all one process of purification and opening. Meditation is at the core of this process, with other practices supporting it. In time purification leads to the merging of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity (energy, kundalini) resulting in as yogani calls it "outpouring divine love" - stillness in action. This means knowing who we are at the deepest level of reality and acting from this place, it also means understanding identified perception.
In AYP bliss is considered a natural aspect of inner silence (emptiness). The process of kundalini and the refining of perception allows you to experience everything, everything manifest, every movement to be an expression of yourself, of That which you are... and that's joy :) |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2008 : 7:18:21 PM
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From these exchanges, have gathered that cultivation of bliss consciousness is co-extensive with the apprehension of emptiness or 'stillness in action' as we say here.
The One & Only Way is meditation, and meditation is the apprehension of emptiness, stillness.
Kundalini enhances the clarity of the cognition of emptiness. It allows one to remain alert even during the subtlest states of consciousness, like dreaming, deep sleep, orgasm or death, giving one control when the mind is gathered deep into the body. <--This I gathered from other reading by Tsongkhapa.
Then there would be a great transition of one's "I-ness" One gains the power to manifest the consciousness of anyone, including buddhas or enlightened deities, which is the greatest of the siddhis.
TMS
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 02:07:07 AM
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Hi TMS,
I always learn and gain so much from your questions. Keep asking them here please.
Steve |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 02:17:26 AM
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A wonderful lesson related to the current discussion.
Lesson 113 - Q&A – Bliss, ecstasy, and divine love
http://www.aypsite.org/113.html
Love and Light,
Steve |
Edited by - Steve on Dec 17 2008 04:13:25 AM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 12:49:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Hi TMS,
I always learn and gain so much from your questions. Keep asking them here please.
Steve
Thank you, Steven. I will. -TMS |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 4:59:26 PM
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There is no conflict between the sutra group and the "vajra" group.
You have much to learn...
But to answer your question from the point of view of your thinking, the vajra group is correct |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 5:02:39 PM
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| To people unfamilar with Buddhism, these types of questions pertain to Mahayana Buddhism. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 10:34:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
There is no conflict between the sutra group and the "vajra" group.
You have much to learn...
But to answer your question from the point of view of your thinking, the vajra group is correct
Hi Alwayson, Apparently I can learn it from you. --TMS |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 10:38:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
There is no conflict between the sutra group and the "vajra" group.
You have much to learn...
But to answer your question from the point of view of your thinking, the vajra group is correct
Alwayson, The Theravada group rejects the Mahayana additions to the Pali Canon. According to the Theravada group, the four foundations of mindfulness is the be all and end all of the Buddha's meditation teaching. At least, that's what I learned from Theravada. Perhaps, you can correct me with your correct view. Thanks.
-TMS |
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The One & Only Way
