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neli
USA
283 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 12 2008 : 01:16:13 AM
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Hi,
I don't know what is happening to me lately that this mantra is not working anymore, nor loud or inner, is Shakti testing me ?
I mean I can chant the shree Om and works perfectly, or the Om Shanti, but the "I am" is not working on me, what is happening ??
To make it work, I chant the SHREE OM SHREE OM I AM I AM, NAMAH, but I only feel it when I chant the Shree Om. Maybe its a blockage, but what I have felt again its problems with electronics, can it be a re-awakening of the energy ? even my crystal quartz jumped out of my silver chain, although this was a clash of energies, I suppose.
Why is this "I am" mantra so slow to work (on me) ? What am I doing wrong? I mean, it has been perfect, but I want to work with this mantra, and this mantra refuses to work with me. Is it normal ? Do I have to force it ? I've been doing this, but it rejects to work. Do I have to be unattached to this mantra ? Cause I've been like forcing it to work, and it doesn't work out or at least I don't feel anything. Is it because I'm using other mantras ? I use other mantras cause this one does not want to work with me.
Any advice ?
Thanks
Sat Nam
Neli |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2008 : 10:43:06 AM
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Hi Neli,
The signs of a fruitful meditation routine are not found in meditation but found in our everyday lives while in action. Even if you don't go deep everytime, or have plateaus of stagnancy during your journey, remember that this is normal. This is the ego trying to trick you into thinking that this isn't working. Stick with it a little while longer and I bet you will see that in time you will start to see progress again. It can't be straight up all the time eh!? Gotta have some valleys or you'll poop yourself out along the way and the progress times won't seem so special if you have nothing to compare them too! Maybe it would help to explain exactly HOW the mantra isn't working for you.
In Love,
CarsonZi |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2008 : 11:34:24 AM
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neli,
Maybe the problem is not selection of mantra. Have your repetitions become mechanical? Are they no longer devotional?
Said Richard Rolle, the English mystic who died in 1349, "Love is 'insuperable' when ... it endures patiently all confining obstacles..."
My experience is more limited than yours, so I cannot offer more than this. Thank you for the encouragement of your recent AJNA posting, neli.
newpov
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Edited by - newpov on Oct 12 2008 11:48:52 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2008 : 11:59:23 AM
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Hi Neli,
In my experience the Om, Shree and Namaha mantras have a much more obvious effect in the nervous system than I AM does. I AM is more subtle, and safer in the long run. That is why the mantra in AYP is only gradually extended over a period of time to include the other elements. I don't think it is a good idea to mess around with mantras until you "feel" that it is "working". By then you could already be on dangerous ground. This is why in India it is always said that you should not work with mantras without an experienced guide, and that you should follow their advice.
Well, we are lucky enough to have an experienced guide here, and Yogani has laid the lessons out as they are for very good reasons. I would simply follow them and not worry much about what is "working" or not. Some things are not as they seem! 
Christi |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2008 : 12:09:40 AM
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Hi CarsonZi,
You are very right, I think my ego is tricking me again, I think this kind of stagnancy is like Shakti testing us, and the ego always responds in a negative way. I'll stick to the mantra, even if I don't feel too much. Sometimes I don't know if I am feeling the energy outside of meditation, cause I was driving home when I began to see the trees and flowers, and then it was like if I were out of myself, I mean at two places at the same time, and an immense happiness invaded me, and I thouught " Humans are living in a paradise and they don't even know" and " what a beautiful civilization that one that man has created " I have never thought this way before, it was not me, maybe my soul or inner self.
I think a "sutra" began to work inside me, never have felt this happiness before while driving and watching the sky and trees or flowers at the same time. I was out of my body, but at the same time I was inside, driving my car. I don't know if this is a sutra, but felt so good this immense happiness, all was so beautiful, but it lasted just minutes. I was not thinking in anything it just happened. I think it was a gift of Shakti maybe cause I was kind of sad, cause this mantra was not working on me. I was very desperated, but Shakti gifted me with this immense happiness, hope this would last more time next time.
Thanks for your reply.
Be well,
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Neli,
The signs of a fruitful meditation routine are not found in meditation but found in our everyday lives while in action. Even if you don't go deep everytime, or have plateaus of stagnancy during your journey, remember that this is normal. This is the ego trying to trick you into thinking that this isn't working. Stick with it a little while longer and I bet you will see that in time you will start to see progress again. It can't be straight up all the time eh!? Gotta have some valleys or you'll poop yourself out along the way and the progress times won't seem so special if you have nothing to compare them too! Maybe it would help to explain exactly HOW the mantra isn't working for you.
In Love,
CarsonZi
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2008 : 12:26:45 AM
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newpov,
Thanks for your reply. I think you are correct, I have been doing the mantra as a repetition, but not all of them, only the I am, maybe that's the why it is not working, cause I have to do it with devotion. I forgot that, or maybe cause I need a strong meaning of the mantra as others have it. I know the meaning of the "I am" is I am, but I don't sense the point. I don't know where to focus while chanting this mantra. I don't get the point. I felt it just once, but not anymore. I feel stronger the SHREE OM, but I haven't let aside the "I am" mantra.
You are very welcome, hope the ajna experience will come again, it was so intense, as the one I had yesterday, the sutras are working on me and I don't even know ! I have to control this tricky ego of mine.
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by newpov
neli,
Maybe the problem is not selection of mantra. Have your repetitions become mechanical? Are they no longer devotional?
Said Richard Rolle, the English mystic who died in 1349, "Love is 'insuperable' when ... it endures patiently all confining obstacles..."
My experience is more limited than yours, so I cannot offer more than this. Thank you for the encouragement of your recent AJNA posting, neli.
newpov
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2008 : 01:08:55 AM
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Hi Christi,
You're right, some things are not as they seem.
I think the "I am" mantra is so subtle, and as I am used to the OM SHANTI, and the SHREE OM, I feel the "I am" so feeble. Maybe that's what I think and maybe its working more than the others, but the results are different (as the mystical experience that I have just felt). My body or inner self is used to the OM SHANTI mantra since long time ago, and the SHREE OM recently, the I AM is only chanted in my mind, maybe I need to focus on something while chanting this mantra, cause its true, I do it as a repetition, and can't get the point. Do you work only with the I AM mantra, or others ? I mean I can't use only one mantra, is like if something is missing, I need 3 or 4 mantras in each meditation, I begin with the Gayatri, 3 times, then chanting the usual OM SHANTI, (peace) then a little while the SHREE OM ( to lift the K energy )and then in my mind the I AM, this one is the only one that I do it in my mind, the others are chanted loud. Maybe I need some patience to try to feel it. Maybe I'm feeling it outside meditation, cause the others I can feel them "in" meditation but not outside. I have read the lessons about this mantra, but I can't get the feeling. Maybe the experience that I have had is a result of this mantra, but this was like a sutra (immense happiness) Or maybe I'm wrong cause I'm thinking that all kind of results or feelings have to be while in meditation.
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Neli,
In my experience the Om, Shree and Namaha mantras have a much more obvious effect in the nervous system than I AM does. I AM is more subtle, and safer in the long run. That is why the mantra in AYP is only gradually extended over a period of time to include the other elements. I don't think it is a good idea to mess around with mantras until you "feel" that it is "working". By then you could already be on dangerous ground. This is why in India it is always said that you should not work with mantras without an experienced guide, and that you should follow their advice.
Well, we are lucky enough to have an experienced guide here, and Yogani has laid the lessons out as they are for very good reasons. I would simply follow them and not worry much about what is "working" or not. Some things are not as they seem!
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2008 : 09:13:25 AM
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Hi Neli,
quote:
Or maybe I'm wrong cause I'm thinking that all kind of results or feelings have to be while in meditation.
Yes,
Having the idea that this or that should happen during meditation is going to be a recipe for disaster. Experiences in meditation change all the time, so how can the mind know what is supposed to happen. If we go down that road, we will be changing our mantra all the time depending on what we are expecting to experience. That's not meditation at all. Better to go deep with one mantra, and without any expectations!
quote:
Do you work only with the I AM mantra, or others ?
I use the mantra Sree Om Sree Om I am I am Namaha Namaha internally during meditation. I chant all sorts of mantras externally depending on who I am chanting (singing) with.
Christi |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2008 : 09:20:37 AM
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Neli,
Do you have a very restless mind? Because you need lots of mantras going at the same time?
Perhaps you have a resistence to I AM mantra?
I have found that the best way of repeating the mantra inside is to kind of befriend the mind while being a bit tough at the same time. And that when the body starts to fall asleep the thoughts quieten down and then i can favor the mantra easily. |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 01:18:33 AM
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Hi Christi,
Maybe that's my mistake, to expect something while in meditation, (a feeling of a chakra). I mean my "discipline" if it can be called that, its the first half hour, I sing first the Om Shanti, then the Shree Om, cause the Gayatri, I just say it 3 times, without chanting, as Gopi did in his time. but then the next hour I still quiet, with no chanting, inner or louder, I mean loud with voice, not so strong, but my body reacts, and the energy flows up immediately. But one hour I still like a stone, maybe following a little bit the state of the Jhanas, but is not Jhanas, sometimes ecstasies comes in this state.
I found the Shree Om, pretty strong, as when I sing it, my body reacts immediately, be it externally or internally.
Maybe I have only to sing (internally) the Shree Om Shree Om I am I am Namaha, and stick to this mantra.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Neli,
quote:
Or maybe I'm wrong cause I'm thinking that all kind of results or feelings have to be while in meditation.
Yes,
Having the idea that this or that should happen during meditation is going to be a recipe for disaster. Experiences in meditation change all the time, so how can the mind know what is supposed to happen. If we go down that road, we will be changing our mantra all the time depending on what we are expecting to experience. That's not meditation at all. Better to go deep with one mantra, and without any expectations!
quote:
Do you work only with the I AM mantra, or others ?
I use the mantra Sree Om Sree Om I am I am Namaha Namaha internally during meditation. I chant all sorts of mantras externally depending on who I am chanting (singing) with.
Christi
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 01:49:53 AM
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Gumpi,
Yes I have a very restless mind, I don't sing the mantras at the same time, but one by one, well, the I am, I do it internally, but I find this one very boring, maybe cause I want to feel it. And I don't feel the I am, at least in meditation, maybe outside, like the experience I just had. But I have noticed that when I sing internally the Shree Om I am, I feel the energy moving, I mean maybe I need something stronger, my body is used to strong experiences, like the Jhana's ecstasies, I mean if I take an aspirin, it doesn't work with me, I need several, two or three, cause my body is very reluctant to make changes.
I don't think I have resistance with the I am, but think that it needs like a boost like the Shree Om, at the beginning (at least in my body).
I never fall asleep while in meditation, not even if it lasts 3 hours. But I can quieten down my mind, I mean in one entire hour my mind is totally quiet, I only sing loud or inner for half an hour, or less, and its just at the beginning of the meditation.
It's like the Kunlun Nei Gung, its a boost to the energy. this really works, but I prefer to self-pace, cause I don't want to hit the wall.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Neli,
Do you have a very restless mind? Because you need lots of mantras going at the same time?
Perhaps you have a resistence to I AM mantra?
I have found that the best way of repeating the mantra inside is to kind of befriend the mind while being a bit tough at the same time. And that when the body starts to fall asleep the thoughts quieten down and then i can favor the mantra easily.
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 02:23:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by neli
Hi,
I don't know what is happening to me lately that this mantra is not working anymore, nor loud or inner, is Shakti testing me ?Any advice ?
Thanks
Sat Nam
Neli
My thoughts on this is that we all have an inner "Guide", or as Yogani says, "The guru is in you." Traditionally, the "guru" would bestow the mantra on the initiate. So, Neli, if your inner guru, tells you that the "I am" mantra is not working for you, this should be telling you something, right? Your inner being is telling you that this mantra is not right for you. We are all unique, and what is the sense in supposing that the same mantra is the best for everyone? And ultimately, we are our own best guide in these matters. I call that intuition, and have found that intuition can be a very definitive guide in this mystery of transformational unfolding. Following the herd instinct to do what a group says is best, is nonsense. Trust yourself to find the mantra that truly resonates with you. And never be intimidated by any group that think they know what is best for you, no matter what is the issue in your life. We are not here to follow herd instinct. We are here to follow our heart, and to find our own divinity. And to do that, frankly, we alone are the best judge of what to do next, and what mantra is our heart's desire and need. Good luck on your chosen path.
your brother, neptune. |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 08:55:31 AM
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neli,
From Chapter 8, Concerning Meditation, by Richard Rolle, in THE MENDING OF LIFE, translated by M.L. Del Mastro from the Latin and available from Amazon used books:
quote:
... Still others arrange their meditations so that they sound nothing but the praise and desire of the Creator, in order that they may love Him as much as may be possible to pilgrims... this meditation is more excellent than the others and most greatly forms the contemplative man. Therefore, just as the works and exercises of the elect are diverse, so their meditations are diverse.
Nevertheless, all meditations which come forth from one found tend toward one end, and arrive at one state of blessedness, or lead to it, bu by diverse roads through a single love, which is greater in one man than in another. “He guides me by paths of virtue,” Psalm 22, as if he said, “There is one justice, but many are the paths by which we are led to the glory of eternal life.”
... no man can establish himself on any of these paths unless he accepts the one for which God has chosen him. Sometimes people who seem to us to be on the high path are on the lower path, and vice-versa, for that condition only appears inwardly before God, within the soul, not outwardly before men, in any deed a man can do externally. But in truth men are directed according to their disposition, their meditation and their affection, to this path or to that one. By no exterior works can it be known who is the greater or who is the lesser in the sight of God.
Therefore it is foolish for people to make judgments concerning the chosen...
... thus the good thoughts and meditations of the chosen are from God... I might be able, therefore, to describe my meditations for you, but I do not know how to explain which kinds will be more fully effective for you, for I have not seen your interior affection.
... Nevertheless you will be able to make a beginning from the sayings of others, which I have experienced in my very self.
... if your meditations now desire the love of Christ, or now resound His praise, you have, as it seems to me, been well disposed... Exercise the meditations in which you experience the greater sweetness and delight in God, for these will more fully perfect you. For to meditate without sweetness produces little, except in that condition on account of which the sweetness is not felt.
Evidently the lessons of Yogani are only initial suggestions, they cannot and will not take any of us the entire distance.
Krishnamurti asserted that “Truth is a pathless land.” Saint Paul saw things only imperfectly, though he was no longer a spiritual child. Doubtless he would agree with Krishnamurti's statement.
We must be like Columbus, leaving the comfort of Isabella's (Yogani's) sighted land for uncharted waters. How often must Columbus have doubted his own compass? How often might he have had to face cautions and objections, and even mutiny, from his fellows?
Evidently the chosen people, the spiritual elect, are men and women who in courage and humility acknowledge their ongoing uncertainties, but nonetheless proceed to explore inner space with the temperament and expectations of Columbus.
newpov |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 09:17:42 AM
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Hi Neli,
It seems that you are putting your own system of practice together by taking bits from here and there. That's fine and it may well work for you, but you do need to be carefull. It is very difficult to put together a system of spiritual practices that will have the right outcome in the long run, and not be dangerous in the short term.
An added problem is that if you keep shifting practices, you won't go deep enough with any one system to make any genuine progress. You will always be swayed by what your mind thinks it needs at any given moment.
Remember Yogani's reply to TI?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=7#36136
Mixing 3 mantras, Jhana meditations, AYP mantra meditation and 3 hour sittings?
I really think you should decide on one system of spiritual practices and stick to it for a decent amount of time. And when you have, results should be judged over the long term, not by what you can feel in one meditation sitting.
Good luck
Christi |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 09:51:11 AM
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quote:
I really think you should decide on one system of spiritual practices and stick to it for a decent amount of time.
Hi all,
[1] What is the AYP "system" ? Who will sum it up most concisely for us? What is essential to the "system" and what is not? What is the "core" of this "system"? Is it just DM and SBP? Is there more to it than this?
[2] Who will suggest what is a "decent amount of time" ? Who can suggest when it is timely to modify ones personal approach?
 Which ought to be more authoritative, a "system of spiritual practices" or the "expectations, hopes, desire or devotion" which is the spiritual context within which any "system of spiritual practices" is undertaken?
[4] "I think you should decide..." We are not merely deciders. We are not merely shrewd shoppers for optimal spiritual methods. One the contrary, what we undertake is an extravagantly consequential gamble. We know death is around any corner and our time left for fulfillment is limited... All of which is to say, perhaps we would be advised to "select" or "decide" our individual approach to the Divine Self with rather more fear and trembling and utmost humility, lest we not experience unmerited grace.
Trust in the Divine is essential. Trust in any "system" is idolatry, in my opinion.
quote:
results should be judged over the long term, not by what you can feel in one meditation sitting.
Good luck
My impression is that neither Neli nor anyone else at this forum makes frivolous judgments based on what is felt in a sitting or two.
Rather arch lay downs of authority, ex cathedra, can undo whatever service we would offer others...
newpov |
Edited by - newpov on Oct 14 2008 6:39:16 PM |
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Neptune
99 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 5:47:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Neli,
In my experience the Om, Shree and Namaha mantras have a much more obvious effect in the nervous system than I AM does. I AM is more subtle, and safer in the long run. That is why the mantra in AYP is only gradually extended over a period of time to include the other elements. I don't think it is a good idea to mess around with mantras until you "feel" that it is "working". By then you could already be on dangerous ground. This is why in India it is always said that you should not work with mantras without an experienced guide, and that you should follow their advice.
Well, we are lucky enough to have an experienced guide here, and Yogani has laid the lessons out as they are for very good reasons. I would simply follow them and not worry much about what is "working" or not. Some things are not as they seem!
Christi
I have always liked your user name of Christi, because of the association with Christ. Many times I read your posts and think to myself, that you are Yogani himself. In any case, you are a person of tremendous experience in all things yogic and I have the greatest respect for your comments.
That said, I think a person can be overly dogmatic and doctrinal about advanced yoga practices and mantras. You know, the strength of Yogani's teachings, is that he has pulled together teachings from various traditional sources, including kriya yoga, hatha yoga, tantric yoga. Except for the "I am" mantra. That, he invented himself. And I have no problem with him inventing that mantra. But, of all the practices that he has organized into his program called AYP, the "I am" mantra" is the only wild card. That is, the only practice that did not originate in ancient times from the rishis in the hills of old India. Secondly, central to his teachings is that all of us have an inner Voice, purusha, that is the basis for his always ending teachings with the words "The guru is in you."
In other words, we have an inner wisdom to guide us in all things if we refine our perception of that. Of THAT. And for you to say that we must all use the "I am" mantra, is narrowminded, at best.
I say, try whatever mantra resonates with you. It will do no harm.
Lahiri Masaya of Kriya yoga fame, recommended Om namo bagavate vasudevi e Om. And he was indeed a great yogi.
As is Yogani, and no doubt yourself, one and the same.
But do try to be a little less dogmatic for the good of us all, because we all care about each other, and that is the reason we are speaking together, here. For the common good. Again I have the greatest admiration and respect for your advice, and enjoy all your posts immensely.
And as always, Christi, Good luck on your chosen path.
neptune |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 6:21:06 PM
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Hi Neptune,
This was an important post and a relevant discussion I think.
I always as well wondered about the I AM mantra. I understand that Yogani can feel its effect in the nervous system and from my limited experience (5 months) it works in calming the mind and bringing stability to daily life. But doesn't this mantra (different spelling, same sound) exist in other traditions? I think I read somewhere in these forums it did...in islamic traditions, etc.
On the other hand what you say it is also true: ultimately the guru is in us and no-one can tell us what ultimately we need. But of course everybody needs a teacher along the way, especially in the beggining. Yogani seems to be a good teacher for begginers such as myself and so I trust him. But, like himslef has written, as we evolve and become more sensitive ourselves we will be able to feel the effects of the mantras in our interiors, right? I long for that.
And, now that we are at it, a related question: how does a guru gives a mantra to a disciple in other traditions such as transcendental meditation? How does a guru knows what is best for the student at a given time? Can a guru be wrong about that? Is there such a thing as an universal mantra, suitable for everybody? I read something in a book (Mantra Meditation by Arya, Usharbudh) quite interesting: a mantra was given by this teacher to a very passive, depressed man. That mantra was designed to make the man release his anger/frustration and so he felt angry all the time. So, although it helped him overcome his depression and become more expressive (open up) it did so in an agressive manner. Later the same guru had to change the mantra to a balancing one for that person to stabilize. I found this a fascinating story. |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2008 : 7:01:08 PM
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Yogaislife,
Years ago I paid my $150 for TM initiation because I was curious about what these folks were offering that I did not have.
The man asked me a few questions about demographics and lifestyle, then told me to think the mantra AING repeatedly and go into the other room for 30 minutes, that we would talk about it later. I sat down and did what he said without any expectations, though I'm sure I must have been in a mood of great expectancy. In that very first session I was blessed and most surprised to experience one microsecond of lilting timeless inner EXPANSE.
I still suppose the AING mantra is dispensed to every TM beginner. I also believe that the expectancy that I brought to that session was everything. Why, then, couldn't OM SHREE AING work for everyone?
So far as I know, Yogani has never claimed to originate the AYAM mantra.
The Jews said, "I am I AM." Their meaning being, I am the Self. A recent yogi claimed that "I am" is the one and only absolutely true statement that any human being can possibly make. If that is the case, Yogani's selection of AYAM could represent his effort to combat illusion (remove obstructions) merely through the repeated assertion of Truth.
newpov |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 01:29:16 AM
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Neptune,
Thanks for your reply, You are very right in many things, our bodies know which mantra to follow, maybe our inner selves. In my case the mantra chanted loud makes my body resonates stronger, but I do it internally also, as I have found that the Shree Om is very intense, be it inner or outer. For example the SA TA NA MA doesn't work with me, its useless in my body. It helped me a lot the OM NAMAH SHIVAYA, but time ago, not now. You are very right one must listen to our bodies, maybe is not the time to work the I am alone, or maybe my body doesn't accept it like that one of the SA TA NA MA. I'll listen more to my intuition, its the best guide. thanks a lot for the reminder.
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
quote:
Originally posted by neli
Hi,
I don't know what is happening to me lately that this mantra is not working anymore, nor loud or inner, is Shakti testing me ?Any advice ?
Thanks
Sat Nam
Neli
My thoughts on this is that we all have an inner "Guide", or as Yogani says, "The guru is in you." Traditionally, the "guru" would bestow the mantra on the initiate. So, Neli, if your inner guru, tells you that the "I am" mantra is not working for you, this should be telling you something, right? Your inner being is telling you that this mantra is not right for you. We are all unique, and what is the sense in supposing that the same mantra is the best for everyone? And ultimately, we are our own best guide in these matters. I call that intuition, and have found that intuition can be a very definitive guide in this mystery of transformational unfolding. Following the herd instinct to do what a group says is best, is nonsense. Trust yourself to find the mantra that truly resonates with you. And never be intimidated by any group that think they know what is best for you, no matter what is the issue in your life. We are not here to follow herd instinct. We are here to follow our heart, and to find our own divinity. And to do that, frankly, we alone are the best judge of what to do next, and what mantra is our heart's desire and need. Good luck on your chosen path.
your brother, neptune.
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 01:50:03 AM
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Newpov,
Thanks for your quote. I really think that we have to be like Columbus, ohterwise we can get stuck into uncertainty. Krishnamurti was right "Truth is a pathless land". The truth for one is not the truth for the other. Our biggest mistake is to forget to listen to ourselves. Intuition plays a big role here.
Thanks for your advice.
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by newpov
neli,
From Chapter 8, Concerning Meditation, by Richard Rolle, in THE MENDING OF LIFE, translated by M.L. Del Mastro from the Latin and available from Amazon used books:
quote:
... Still others arrange their meditations so that they sound nothing but the praise and desire of the Creator, in order that they may love Him as much as may be possible to pilgrims... this meditation is more excellent than the others and most greatly forms the contemplative man. Therefore, just as the works and exercises of the elect are diverse, so their meditations are diverse.
Nevertheless, all meditations which come forth from one found tend toward one end, and arrive at one state of blessedness, or lead to it, bu by diverse roads through a single love, which is greater in one man than in another. “He guides me by paths of virtue,” Psalm 22, as if he said, “There is one justice, but many are the paths by which we are led to the glory of eternal life.”
... no man can establish himself on any of these paths unless he accepts the one for which God has chosen him. Sometimes people who seem to us to be on the high path are on the lower path, and vice-versa, for that condition only appears inwardly before God, within the soul, not outwardly before men, in any deed a man can do externally. But in truth men are directed according to their disposition, their meditation and their affection, to this path or to that one. By no exterior works can it be known who is the greater or who is the lesser in the sight of God.
Therefore it is foolish for people to make judgments concerning the chosen...
... thus the good thoughts and meditations of the chosen are from God... I might be able, therefore, to describe my meditations for you, but I do not know how to explain which kinds will be more fully effective for you, for I have not seen your interior affection.
... Nevertheless you will be able to make a beginning from the sayings of others, which I have experienced in my very self.
... if your meditations now desire the love of Christ, or now resound His praise, you have, as it seems to me, been well disposed... Exercise the meditations in which you experience the greater sweetness and delight in God, for these will more fully perfect you. For to meditate without sweetness produces little, except in that condition on account of which the sweetness is not felt.
Evidently the lessons of Yogani are only initial suggestions, they cannot and will not take any of us the entire distance.
Krishnamurti asserted that “Truth is a pathless land.” Saint Paul saw things only imperfectly, though he was no longer a spiritual child. Doubtless he would agree with Krishnamurti's statement.
We must be like Columbus, leaving the comfort of Isabella's (Yogani's) sighted land for uncharted waters. How often must Columbus have doubted his own compass? How often might he have had to face cautions and objections, and even mutiny, from his fellows?
Evidently the chosen people, the spiritual elect, are men and women who in courage and humility acknowledge their ongoing uncertainties, but nonetheless proceed to explore inner space with the temperament and expectations of Columbus.
newpov
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 03:09:49 AM
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Christi,
Before I get here, I was, for a long time in Jhanas, but now I have left this beautiful and wonderful Buddhist practice, cause I wanted to enter the world of "sensations". My meditations lasted 3 hours in Jhanas, but not in the K path, in this path I meditate one hour and a half, cause for me 20 minutes is not enough to quieten my mind. I need more time. half an hour of mantras, and one hour of stillness.
Its my body that beggs for this, not my mind.
Maybe cause I can't meditate twice a day, just once. My body is used to one meditation per day, maybe I have to change this, but is not that easy.
I was before in many things, but now I am only in the K path. For years I was in Siddha Yoga, then I moved to Jhanas, stood there for a long time also. and in this path I have more than a year, but let me say that Jhanas awakens the K path alone, without problems, its like a side effect of Jhanas,(so I think the K path had awakened alone while in Jhanas a couple of years ago). People in Jhanas does not put attention to Kundalini. I mean when I was in Jhanas I was feeling the K energy, but I never put attention to the crowling sensation and other things, till I read something about Kundalini, and I really like this path, its similar to Jhanas, "stillness" (absorption), nimittas, sensations of the energy. But I can say that the most wonderful ecstasies I have had, had been here, following some of Yogani's practices. I have practiced the I am maybe for 4 months, and my inner self is telling me that is not working, I have read the enhancements of the mantras, that's why I added the Shree Om at the beginning, to boost the energy. In Jhanas we don't use mantras, they are useless, the energy flows alone, no need for any mantra. I mean people thinks that Jhanas is nothing, but compared to the K path, is like comparing heaven with earth, but I wanted to be on earth, is not that one is bigger than the other, they are just different, but they complement each other. BaBa Muktananda used several mantras, the same as guru Mayi.
If a physician tells me to take a pill, and that pill is not working on my body,(and I need a pill) he cannot force me to take it, cause it can kills me. He immediately change the pill, many pills he can try on me till one can fits on my body. I remember a physician that gave me a pill time ago, and told me that I have to accept it, and wanted to give me other pill to accept the other, and I was feeling awful, till I told him that it was his responsability if something happened to me, then he changed the pill to another one. My body was rejecting that pill without reason, I don't know why, not even the doctor knew why.
many doctors studied my case and told me that I was one in a million that the pill caused the bad symptoms. It supposed to be a "harmless" pill for them, and a very good one for many people.
Thanks for your reply
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Neli,
It seems that you are putting your own system of practice together by taking bits from here and there. That's fine and it may well work for you, but you do need to be carefull. It is very difficult to put together a system of spiritual practices that will have the right outcome in the long run, and not be dangerous in the short term.
An added problem is that if you keep shifting practices, you won't go deep enough with any one system to make any genuine progress. You will always be swayed by what your mind thinks it needs at any given moment.
Remember Yogani's reply to TI?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=7#36136
Mixing 3 mantras, Jhana meditations, AYP mantra meditation and 3 hour sittings?
I really think you should decide on one system of spiritual practices and stick to it for a decent amount of time. And when you have, results should be judged over the long term, not by what you can feel in one meditation sitting.
Good luck
Christi
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 09:21:30 AM
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neli, you said that after one hour of meditation your mind quiets completely. Isn't that the goal of meditation? It must feel good! I think i know what it is like but i need to stop nodding off.
I think Neptune is right. Go with what feels right to you, use your intuition, the internal compass, to guide you. Only you can know what is best for you, especially now you have mentioned your reactions to medications. I was once on an anti-psychotic pill that really didn't bode well with me until it was changed and then the sun came out so to speak. You don't have to use I AM mantra. Besides, if you are doing the advanced version of it then that is even better. I would stick to that. Whatever brings YOU there, if you know what i mean.
Have you ever tried binaural beat or brain entrainment technology? Transparent do a free trial program called Neuroprogrammer and they have a nice forum. I found this program definitely worked for me but some people find it too powerful. I wouldn't suggest mixing too many practices at all, but i wondered about the goal of meditation being ultimately to still the mind and so whatever takes you there the best is something you have to work out.
The danger is in mixing too many practices. It is like what happens to people who lose faith in a religion or spiritual path only to go around to different churches etc ingesting everything and never sticking to one thing. Yogananda called it "spiritual indigestion". Definitely to be avoided. Think of it like learning to play the piano - it needs practice and dedication and if you keep trying out different styles (rock, blues, jazz etc) instead of mastering the basics it can lead to problems later on.
I don't agree that you have to use I AM mantra. Whoever said that was wrong. One shoe size doesn't fit all people. And lastly, it isn't about techniques, it is about love. |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 10:07:14 AM
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"And lastly, it isn't about techniques, it is about love."
YES ! ! ! ! YES ! ! ! ! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 11:34:06 AM
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Hi Neptune,
quote:
I have always liked your user name of Christi, because of the association with Christ. Many times I read your posts and think to myself, that you are Yogani himself. In any case, you are a person of tremendous experience in all things yogic and I have the greatest respect for your comments.
Thanks for the compliment.
Actually I am really just a beginner at Yoga and at AYP and have a great deal to learn. In the back of the Secrets of Wilder novel there is a chart of practices, showing typical practices for beginner, intermediate and advanced students, and when I checked my practices on the chart I am still at the beginner level. So I have a long way to go, but I am trying. I was probably a bit hard on Neli, but I will try and explain why.
quote:
That said, I think a person can be overly dogmatic and doctrinal about advanced yoga practices and mantras. You know, the strength of Yogani's teachings, is that he has pulled together teachings from various traditional sources, including kriya yoga, hatha yoga, tantric yoga. Except for the "I am" mantra. That, he invented himself. And I have no problem with him inventing that mantra. But, of all the practices that he has organized into his program called AYP, the "I am" mantra" is the only wild card. That is, the only practice that did not originate in ancient times from the rishis in the hills of old India. Secondly, central to his teachings is that all of us have an inner Voice, purusha, that is the basis for his always ending teachings with the words "The guru is in you."
In other words, we have an inner wisdom to guide us in all things if we refine our perception of that. Of THAT. And for you to say that we must all use the "I am" mantra, is narrowminded, at best.
First off, I don't think I have ever said that everyone should use the I AM mantra! I did not say that above. What I did say is that with spiritual practices it is important to work within a proven system (whatever that system may be). This is even more important when working with mantras, as they have effects on the subtle nervous system that we may not realize until later. (It is also important when working with pranayama)
As you know, in the lessons, Yogani lays out the method for working with the I AM mantra, and goes on to give instructions for how to expand the mantra in steps, and how to back off if necessary if we find out that we are not yet ready for the increase in power.
In the instructions for using the basic I AM mantra, it does not say, "if, after about four months you cannot feel the resonance of the I AM mantra in your body, then change to a different mantra, any one that feels right for you. Trust your inner guru."
There is a good reason why he didn't write that into the system, and that is because it would be madness.
I have seen many things over the years, and I have seen many "disaster cases"... people who went too far, too soon, and ended up in a mess. Being completely serious, I have met some who I think will never recover, at least not in this lifetime. Most do recover, fortunately, but it can be a long journey. The biggest causes of these cases are, in my experience, wrong use of visualizations (especially involving chakras), wrong use of pranayama, and wrong use of mantras.
People learn spiritual practices from here or there, as we all do these days, and they have an extremely strong devotion, a longing for God, and they practice every day using whatever practices they have learned. I have done this as well, without realizing how dangerous it was.
This summer I spent a lot of time helping a lady in England. She had learned a spiritual practice a few years ago which she called the "Sedona method". She had practiced it every day. Then one day it all went wrong. Her energy system went haywire and her emotions too. Last time I saw her she was almost blind, and suicidal.
Now, I'm not suggesting that the same would happen to Neli if she changed her mantra to Om Shanti, or just chanted Sri Om, and left the I AM part out. She would most likely be absolutely fine. But I am saying that we should not trifle with mantras, or change them simply because we feel that a different one would work better, or feels better in our body.
There seem to be a lot of people here saying that we can trust our inner Guru to tell us which mantra is right for us. If we have that degree of connectedness with our inner Guru, then maybe we can. But how many of us really do?
Yes, it is true that Yogani has assembled AYP from many different systems, and invented parts of it himself, but that doesn't mean that we all can do this (or should do this). He did a lot of experimentation, and paid the price in terms of energy overloads. To be able to put AYP together in a way that is safe and effective for thousands of people took an amazing degree of understanding of the workings of the human nervous system, which only comes from years of experience.
Chanting mantras aloud (Japa) is a different matter, but when it comes to using mantras internally as part of meditation, I would say (again) follow the guidance of an experienced teacher. Personally, I am quite happy for people to use all sorts of mantras (pretty much any mantra in fact ) as long as they are doing it under guidance from someone who knows how mantras work, and more importantly, how the process of spiritual transformation works at the deepest level.
All the best to you too.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Oct 15 2008 12:15:13 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 11:51:46 AM
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Hi Neli,
quote:
I have practiced the I am maybe for 4 months, and my inner self is telling me that is not working,
It sounds like you are doing really well. I agree with Gumpi, silence is the goal of meditation, not inner energy experiences which come and go.
It sounds to me as if you feel it is not working because you are looking for "sensations". But Kundalini yoga, and AYP are not designed to produce sensations. Sensations can be a by-product of yoga (just as they can in Jhana absorptions), but stillness and ecstatic love are the real goals. And ecstatic love comes as a result of surrendering into silence.
Four months is a very short time to be using a mantra for. I would stick with it and see how far you can go.
Christi |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2008 : 4:00:52 PM
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I felt i had to add something.
Love has no expectations. When you love a person you can expect them to hurt you, but that doesn't matter because you love them.
In the same way, love knows no expectations, so when you meditate, do it out of love and the time will fly and you will feel good. And loving without expecting a return for it gets registered in the spiritual karmic bank account. So, the more you meditate for the love of meditation rather than expecting anything from it, the more mature you are. And this maturity is the crown jewel of experience. Because when you expect nothing, suddenly everything is there. And you don't even have to work for it.
So love, to me, is the essence of bhakti, karma, jnana and kriya. The action of loving in meditation and every day life, being free from results, ie the end is not taken for the means, is real love, and it produces endeless results.
Sorry, i ranted. |
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I AM mantra
