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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 12:41:36 PM
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Is celibacy absolutely necessary for kundalini awakening?
Today i watched a gopi krishna film and he said that the sexual energy acts like a biological radiation.
Also, swami Vivekananda lays a lot of stress on celibacy. Basically his whole teaching is about non-attachment, which means giving up personal desires, sex seemingly one of the biggest ones.
I have found that if i release my fluid i am not bothered by sexual thoughts for the rest of the day and i certainly don't think about sex when i meditate. I just wondered if maybe i have an abnormal libido, in which case repression for extended periods of time would probably cause me to think about sex while meditating and i don't want that to happen. Slow and steady gradual celibacy seems like a good idea.
Also, celibacy is good for memory because the semen gets reabsorbed back into the blood, which obviously gets carried to the brain. A celibate person is said to have tremendous will power too. |
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 3:57:53 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Celibacy is definitely not a absolute requirement for kundalini awakening since so many have had their kundalini awakened without lifestyle changes. However, I was actually going to start a thread about possible changes to make or practices to add if a person feels they are not making progress after atleast one year of consistent practices and I think yogani's recommendations concerning bramacharya would be the first thing that I would advise such people to heed. Especially if the practitioner is male.
The problem is that when this is forced (especially celibacy) or when the person becomes over preoccupied with this ( oh no, there was nocturnal emission, all is lost!!!!) the progression can be retarded instead of creating newer openings.
Personally, I have seen super results the last couple of months and have been celibate for the last month and a half. Previously, I tried controlling the sexual impulses through yogani's tantric techniques. This did keep me from the significant drops in energy that I would have if I ejaculated more than once a couple of weeks. Well, over a period of several months, this evolved to the point now where there is marked diminishment of sexual impulses.
It feels like the energy has left the genital area and moved onto the higher centers. Along with this has come much more energy, even greater clarity of mind and yes, my memory is the sharpest that it has ever been (I've been in school for most of my life so I have a clear reference point). Also, the recovery periods after heavy purification have been shortened to hours or a couple of days.
I'm cognizant of the fact that the energy might come back to the lower centers so I have not proclaimed an end to sexual relations or neither do I ever intend to, but also there is no doubt that recent progress is definitely related to my exponentially decreased fascination with sex.
I think the best approach is as you have suggested above, slow and steady. Meditation and pranayama are essential and once (or at the same time) those are a part of a stable routine, attention can be paid to the sexual issues.
The reason meditation and pranayama are so essential are two fold. The first part is that once you have some inner silence and energy coming up, the impact of actually ejaculating on energy levels and silence are crystal clear. Secondly, the meditation and pranayama are going to be the main catalysts for the purification and cleaning out of the different centers. This, in my experience, makes them control levers (not talking about full blown kundalini) over the sexual energy. Believe me, once the path for the energy is cleared and it leaves the lower centers (for however long) the whole preoccupation with sex tumbles down like a house of cards.
It is so amazingly freeing that I started laughing hysterically (its actually sad) at the fact that we spend our whole lives preoccupied with sex or lack of it, when it is really so much less important. The amount of focus on sex in our media and society then appears ludicrous. I also started laughing at the fact that as teenagers we are occupied with the idea of sex and i'm sure most of us would just gravitate towards normal intercourse (can't speak about the current generation because what construes sex has definitely changed). Then, once we have normal missionary style sex, we are obviously not satiated. We then start with oral, anal, and only the Good Lord knows what else. It just shows to me that sex is not fulfilling our deeper needs and these other sexual practices are a kin to our conspicuous consumption as a society (basic needs and even luxury items not filling that emptiness so we must get the newest and shiniest type of everything).
Sex is becoming so much more (providing the energy for transformation) and at the same time so much less (I can pay attention now - even in a library full of coed's). I invite you to read the tantra lesson for the training wheels and sooner or later, sex is just something so different than most of us have ever imagined.
take care,
eitheway
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Edited by - Eitherway on Sep 27 2008 4:17:48 PM |
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newpov
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 5:58:03 PM
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| thanks for this informative post, Eitherway |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 12:37:57 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
I don't think celibacy is necessary for the K awakening, but to the enlightenment, it can help. I agree with Swami Vivekananda that the non-attachment attitude is the best way. The enlightenment process includes giving up desires, and this includes sex, but it has to be natural not forced. It takes a long time to be a celibate. For a woman is easier but for a man is harder. If you look at the big masters like Jesus or Vivekananda, or the saints, they were all celibates. But its dangerous if not carried on properly as said by Gopi Krishna cause it can lead to worst things (like sexual deviations). Its very important that celibacy can be a natural process, a detachment of desires, not a forced celibacy. If a man can control his seed, his will power can increase a lot, as he is not anymore a slave of the biological and chemical processes of his body. But our society doesn't helps too much cause its focused only in sex, and sexual propaganda, and sees the celibates as abnormal people, not regarding that Jesus was a celibate, and the saints. But I think its very important that celibacy has to be a natural and desired process, not forced.
Sat Nam
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Is celibacy absolutely necessary for kundalini awakening?
Today i watched a gopi krishna film and he said that the sexual energy acts like a biological radiation.
Also, swami Vivekananda lays a lot of stress on celibacy. Basically his whole teaching is about non-attachment, which means giving up personal desires, sex seemingly one of the biggest ones.
I have found that if i release my fluid i am not bothered by sexual thoughts for the rest of the day and i certainly don't think about sex when i meditate. I just wondered if maybe i have an abnormal libido, in which case repression for extended periods of time would probably cause me to think about sex while meditating and i don't want that to happen. Slow and steady gradual celibacy seems like a good idea.
Also, celibacy is good for memory because the semen gets reabsorbed back into the blood, which obviously gets carried to the brain. A celibate person is said to have tremendous will power too.
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Michael Beloved
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 08:59:06 AM
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Is celibacy absolutely necessary for kundalini awakening?
Kundalini is necessary for physical life. Without it there cannot be any kind of physical life, nor any kind of lower subtle body which could be the basis for physical life. One of the big misunderstandings about kundalini is this: That it is something other than the force which is presently the main energy keeping the body alive. When we speak of awakening kundalini, we are actually talking about causing it to increase its interest in the spine and brain. If kundalini was not awakened already none of us would have life in these physical bodies, nor any animals nor any physical life forms for that matter, insects, bacteria or anything.
When kundalini is not awake in this body, we say that the body is dead. Thus celibacy is not absolutely necessary for kundalini to operate, because kundalini is itself a co-sponsor of sexual interests or the lack of it. In addition in a child’s body before puberty, there is no sexual interest in the sense of adult sexual relations. Even if a child tries to indulge sexually before his or her body reaches puberty, there will be no adult sexual response. The same kundalini is in the body during infancy as it is during adult status, but its interest in sex is absent during infancy.
Kundalini itself is interested in all experience, including sexual indulgence and celibacy. In many animal forms, a person using an animal body is prohibited by kundalini from expressing much interest in sex. In such forms, celibacy is enforced by kundalini itself. In some other forms there is increased interest in sex, which is enforced by kundalini. Therefore both sex interest and sex disinterest is sponsored by kundalini.
When there is a sexual orgasm, that itself is the awakening of kundalini. Sex expression itself is an arousal of kundalini. But traditionally, we say, that when kundalini moves up the spine into the brain, it is awakened. Actually the same kundalini is experienced in its awakened state in the genitals and elsewhere during sexual intercourse. When the arousal of kundalini focuses in the direction of the genitals we call it sexual orgasm and when that arousal focuses into the spine and brain, we call it awakening of kundalini.
Celibacy is not absolutely necessary for kundalini to increase its energy up the spine into the brain but it is necessary for this to happen on a consistent basis and for this to become the habitual and natural method for kundalini.
The natural method of arousal is the sexual one, because the focus of kundalini is survival of the species, which can occur only through sexual interplay.
Kundalini’s interest in that survival through reproduction will not decrease unless there is a shift towards celibacy.
It is a matter of interest. Can a yogi divert from sexual interest? Just as the mind and emotions habitually move towards development and involvement of sexual interest, can the psyche be reoriented towards meditation and higher dimensional experiences instead? If the interest can be adjusted, so will the focus of kundalini. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 11:31:19 AM
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That is all very interesting but there are people saying celibacy is not needed on the one hand and other people saying it is.
I am pretty certain that people who have no knowledge or experience of kundalini do not experience it when they have sex. So it seems misleading to even speak of kundalini at all. It doesn't seem to have a proper definition. It is all kinds of things!
Personally i think that 99% of the experiences posted on these forums are simply the product of self-hypnosis, hypnosis and the placebo effect. I don't see any evidence which suggests otherwise.
Bear in mind that i don't say these things to put down anyone here or as an excuse to indulge in sex. I just find the whole concept of kundalini and "spinal breathing" completely unscientific with zero evidence for its existence.
What i DO know is that habitually focussing on the spine in this way can create sensations in it like warmth. Over time i am sure people "feel" things there but it is one thing to go from that to some type of spiritual astral body energy that eludes scientific detection.
Why don't people give each other experiences over AYP? Why can't someone here show me the spiritual eye or give me shaktipat or kundalini experiences? And supposing they tried to do it and nothing happened - well then that is my fault right? |
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 12:16:48 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Truly, the only evidence that will convince a person is what they gathered or were exposed to themselves. This is especially true in the case of yoga practices. You are right, thus far science can't vouch for the existence of prana much the less other esoteric phenomenon. Hopefully, this time will come soon but no one can say for sure.
The reason most of the people here continue their practices is that they see changes in their life as well as experiences that are of a spiritual nature. I, myself, can say that I have improved in every relationship, every role, have become a better student, a better human and honestly I can't attribute it to anything but ayp. I would love to know scientifically (I'm a medical student) how this is happening but for now the framework of purification and energy centers will have to suffice.
You may say that this is self-hypnosis, hypnosis, or the placebo effect and I would say ok, gumpi I can't disprove that 100% but honestly I'm not too bothered by this. Why?? Lets say that ayp leads to a hypnotic state in which you can have some unexplainable experiences. Ok, this isn't hard to imagine because there are literally hundred of drugs (legal and otherwise) that can give you such experiences in literally minutes. The important thing, the true measure of ayp or any other spiritual system is the impact on daily life. I'm calmer, more alert, and there is a silence that I seem to be a bigger part of than prior to ayp. I take things less personally, I am able to concentrate easier, I am more emphathetic and understanding of my family, friends, and people in general. Most importantly, I think, there is a drastic decrease in effort (read mind effort) than before in all walks of life.
Oh, by the way, the only esoteric or unusual experience I have are some buzzes up and down the spine/body and a feeling of silence in which I know that this chattering voice is not really me. I know it is a part of this body/mind and it can be helpful in certain situations but it is also easy to see that it is so persistenly out of control. It wants to be active above all else. But I see that its activity is largely a waste of energy and a distraction from the silence that is surrounding it.
All these changes are as real as the sun for me. If hypnosis or the placebo effect can lead to these changes in the lives of people, I'm all for it.
I know this won't convince you, and I'm sure if I were in your shoes, it wouldn't be enough for me either. The only thing I can say is Dear Gumpi, see if you can commit yourself to twice daily practice of meditation and pranayama ayp style for a year. Hold your judgements and queries for this time. I'm not saying get rid of them, just put them on the back burner for this time. Also please heed the general advice towards recreational substances (alcahol, marijuana.....) as well as bramacharya (not celibacy but the techniques that yogani recommends). Then see what develops. This way you can be true to yourself.
take care,
eitherway |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 1:08:01 PM
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Gumpi,
How do you explain the ability that DM and SBP have given me to get clean from methadone as quickly as I have? I am the only one who truely KNOWS that what I say is happening is truely happening, but it is. I was a heroin and methamphetamine addict for many years before switching to methadone from heroin for over 3 years now. On August 1rst I started downdosing from my daily dosage of 90mg. Today, Sept 28th I am on 5mg a day. In 11 days I will be completely clean. This is unheard of in both the medical and the addict communities. The average downdose time that a doctor will give a patient trying to get off of methadone is usually 36 months per 60 mg. This is how long it is generally accepted it will take for someone on 60mg's to get clean without "major" withdrawl symptoms. Compare that timeframe to mine now. According to mordern medicine I should not be able to do ANYTHING except squirm while in extreme bone and muscular pain, and puke. Not sleep, not eat, nothing but lay in pain and puke. I have not missed a single day of work, I have thrown up only once (the day after drinking 3 beer) and I have never felt better in my whole life. (literally) My doctors, my pharmacist, and my addict friends all think that I am either selling my doses and supplementing with heroin again, or that I am some kind of wierd alien or something. I guess I should also mention that this is not my first time trying to get off of methadone or heroin. The addiction to opiates has been with me for over 6 years now, and I have tried numerous times on both heroin and methadone to get clean. None even remotely successful. This is hard medical proof, to me, to my doctor, and to a couple or researchers who are trying to help me set up an AYP methadone addict study group to verify and quantify my personal results with AYP assisted methadone reduction. You can deny this all you want, but someday soon there WILL be medical proof of some of the positive medical verifiable effects of AYP meditation practices. What will it take to convince you? Obviously the only thing that will convince you of the effectiveness and truth behind AYP is what eitherway said, Your own personal experience. You won't get that if you don't practice. All the doubts and questions in the world are fine as long as you keep up with your practices. If you aren't, then you are compaining just for the sake of complaining and that benefits noone. Especially not you. So question away Gumpi, just make sure that you take the time to do your practices twice a day, because if you half-ass your way through the process then you aren't verifying OR debunking anything.
In Love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 28 2008 1:54:24 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 1:25:19 PM
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Hi eitherway, i enjoyed your post.
To be honest with you, everything you have described applies to me also. I have the exact same experiences as you pretty much. And you are right about placebo or not, it does work. However, what you describe and what other people on this forum describe are radically different - such as levitation! Such as the spiritual eye, kundalini, chakras, and Om sounds! These are the things i am trying to experience and failing to. All it does is make me believe that when people are describing those things it is simply due to hypnosis and placebo.
I experience stuff in my spine aswell, but i don't call it some mysterious new-age energy "kundalini", which, let's be honest, has so many different ways of manifesting it could literally be ANYTHING unusual. You see, there really is no difference between thinking of your right big toe and focussing on it intently to feel it more, and spinal breathing effects. It stands to reason that if you concentrate on your spine a lot it becomes a conditioned response and you feel activity there. But a coiled serpent at the base of the spine rising through the chakras to the head and making people God - that just isn't the case.
So while i agree with all you say and i also experience the same, there are just some things i do not buy into.
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Eitherway
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 2:17:32 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Believe me, before starting ayp I didn't buy into the esoteric either. And even now, I don't believe these things in the sense that they are necessary or even definitely "real". What do I think of them then? Well, I think these practices start a process in the body and this results in these experiences. I am apt to believe the process is one of purification or dropping baggage that we have either accumulated or have been born with.
I think the kind of experiences we have is related to where the purification is taking place. So, for example if the part of the brain that is being worked on is the occipital lobe (back of head-visual center) then the experiences might include what would be termed illusions or hallucinations. Now, if the purification is happening in a area where we have for example a strong emotional connection to a diety or ishta and that is stimulated along with the visual cortex, we can easily have dramatic visions of our chosen savior, etc...... Similarily, if the vestibular area (balance) along with proprioception (ability to sense our position in space) is affected, the feeling of levitation might arise.
The thing is that the brain and its processes are so complex that multiple ares (each responsible for different things such as emotions, thoughts, motor control, perception, vision,......)are involved and thus it really isn't as simple to say that a purification in this part will cause certain "perceptual experiences". This type of reductive thinking is easy for those involved in the sciences (including me) but we have to just be comfortable with knowing that we cannot completely know the mystery.
I have never been a visual person and I think those that are, are more likely to experience these phenomena. I have been practicing for almost two years now, and honestly I cannot visualize the sushmna one iota. But the silence, oh there is no doubt about the silence.
So some of us will have dramatically different types of experiences and honestly, I think it might be possible to go far without seeing many "visual" fireworks. Heck, we (you and I) might have purified these areas in previous lifetimes or might just be born lucky!(honestly, now I think it is a blessing because it would be so easy to go overboard or into ego fantasy land if I can do something or see something that almost all other humans cannot).
Just the same, I don't doubt these experiences can actually happen. For a second think about the fact that we are on this big watery planet which is hurling through space and orbiting the sun, etc.... and dang the illusion that we should know everything should come crashing down. Again the brain and its abilities are so vast that you simply cannot deny that almost anything is possible. Though we do see the rarity of these things lately It seems there is more talk of siddhi's etc... although I don't hear too many people claiming complete mastery and control over it. Rather, it seems like a occurrence that is only somewhat in their control.
So, the experiences are more signposts in the sense that they confirm that the purification process is active. I don't think the experiences are related or necessary in the sense that they are mostly the dust of a room that is kicked up during the cleaning process.
Truly, the only experience I care about is happiness. Now, a lot of people say they are happy so you can't trust even your mental interpretation. So how do you know ? As Jesus said, Ye shall know them by their fruits. So I implore you to pay less attention to levitation etc.... and instead pay more attention to how do you spend each moment of this existence. Keep practicing, and by God, the results will speak for themselves. The truth/happiness have to be the greatest Siddhi of all.
take care,
eitheway
p.s If along the way we start levitating or gain other siddhi's, we can discuss it then. Until then I think it is just fodder for the mind. |
Edited by - Eitherway on Sep 28 2008 2:39:16 PM |
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neli
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2008 : 7:32:24 PM
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Eitherway,
Your post was great ! and very true, Happiness is the only Siddhi that we must attain, and is the bigger one, others are just little things (in comparison)
Neli
quote:
Originally posted by Eitherway
Hi Gumpi,
Believe me, before starting ayp I didn't buy into the esoteric either. And even now, I don't believe these things in the sense that they are necessary or even definitely "real". What do I think of them then? Well, I think these practices start a process in the body and this results in these experiences. I am apt to believe the process is one of purification or dropping baggage that we have either accumulated or have been born with.
I think the kind of experiences we have is related to where the purification is taking place. So, for example if the part of the brain that is being worked on is the occipital lobe (back of head-visual center) then the experiences might include what would be termed illusions or hallucinations. Now, if the purification is happening in a area where we have for example a strong emotional connection to a diety or ishta and that is stimulated along with the visual cortex, we can easily have dramatic visions of our chosen savior, etc...... Similarily, if the vestibular area (balance) along with proprioception (ability to sense our position in space) is affected, the feeling of levitation might arise.
The thing is that the brain and its processes are so complex that multiple ares (each responsible for different things such as emotions, thoughts, motor control, perception, vision,......)are involved and thus it really isn't as simple to say that a purification in this part will cause certain "perceptual experiences". This type of reductive thinking is easy for those involved in the sciences (including me) but we have to just be comfortable with knowing that we cannot completely know the mystery.
I have never been a visual person and I think those that are, are more likely to experience these phenomena. I have been practicing for almost two years now, and honestly I cannot visualize the sushmna one iota. But the silence, oh there is no doubt about the silence.
So some of us will have dramatically different types of experiences and honestly, I think it might be possible to go far without seeing many "visual" fireworks. Heck, we (you and I) might have purified these areas in previous lifetimes or might just be born lucky!(honestly, now I think it is a blessing because it would be so easy to go overboard or into ego fantasy land if I can do something or see something that almost all other humans cannot).
Just the same, I don't doubt these experiences can actually happen. For a second think about the fact that we are on this big watery planet which is hurling through space and orbiting the sun, etc.... and dang the illusion that we should know everything should come crashing down. Again the brain and its abilities are so vast that you simply cannot deny that almost anything is possible. Though we do see the rarity of these things lately It seems there is more talk of siddhi's etc... although I don't hear too many people claiming complete mastery and control over it. Rather, it seems like a occurrence that is only somewhat in their control.
So, the experiences are more signposts in the sense that they confirm that the purification process is active. I don't think the experiences are related or necessary in the sense that they are mostly the dust of a room that is kicked up during the cleaning process.
Truly, the only experience I care about is happiness. Now, a lot of people say they are happy so you can't trust even your mental interpretation. So how do you know ? As Jesus said, Ye shall know them by their fruits. So I implore you to pay less attention to levitation etc.... and instead pay more attention to how do you spend each moment of this existence. Keep practicing, and by God, the results will speak for themselves. The truth/happiness have to be the greatest Siddhi of all.
take care,
eitheway
p.s If along the way we start levitating or gain other siddhi's, we can discuss it then. Until then I think it is just fodder for the mind.
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slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2008 : 2:03:14 PM
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gumpi,
celibacy is not necessary for kundalini awakening. consistent practice is necessary to cultivate it. in my case, i was using a variant of vipassana meditation which brought up ecstatic energy like bolts of orgasmic energy all the way up my spine. it is not imaginary. one can learn to manipulate one's energy and consciousness. practice is more important than trying to wrestle with the sexual urge. eventually, the control you gain through tenacious practice will extend to sex and you can chose when to enjoy it and when to let it go. and when you chose to enjoy it from silence it will take on a wonderful new dimension.
find freedom!
slenten. |
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celibacy and kundalini
