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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 27 2009 : 10:38:50 PM
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Most important thing, without which rainbow body is not possible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_(Buddhism)
The mahayana version, because it includes refuge, merit dedication and bodhicitta which are the 3 minimum requirements for rainbow body
You just need to visualize the Buddha is standing in front of you.
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2009 : 4:33:08 PM
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| Practice staring into the blue sky from one of the above postures, and then tackle SQUINTING into the sun. |
Edited by - alwayson on Jan 30 2009 4:59:27 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 6:29:29 PM
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Okay, I'm more up to speed on completion stage in Mahamudra, and it involves the appearances of lights, like in Dzogchen. What's not clear to me is where the rainbow body fits in in Mahamudra. It is not emphasized, and is described as having been attained by those who are not Nirmanakaya buddhas, like Milarepa. It is seems to be described as spontaneously arising before one achieves buddhahood.
Now the lights (which have varying names), black, red, yellow, blue and white-Clear Light, are what arise at death or deep sleep. So after one has gone through guru yoga and generation stage, clearly able to visualize one's self as the deity, one takes a karmamudra (a sex partner) and holds the winds in the central channel, manipulating them up and down and around the body. Finally, when the vision of the clear light arises, one "arises as the deity" and the deity transforms from a vision into a real thing.
It is this deity body which one becomes a buddha.
So, alwayson, you're correct, about Phowa. If one is not able to accomplish the clear light vision with a karmamudra, because of karmic impurities, the fallback move is to accomplish the clear light vision in the bardo. This is where you get the idea that the focus of mahamudra is on Phowa. But that is not correct, the primary focus of completion stage is the clear light vision in which to manifest the deity where the light and bliss coincide.
So, since we are experimenters here; perhaps the sought after "union of mahamudra and dzogchen" is about which practice or mix of practices gives rise to a clear light vision in this life, the kundalini practice of mahamudra or the thogal practice in dzogchen. Perhaps it is either depending on the propensities of the practitioners. But this is a worthy question to mull over, since the clear light vision is so important to both traditions.
I read in Heartdrops that with Thogal one doesn't visualize the deity, that one spontaneously appears as the deity with the sambogakaya visions that naturally arise.
My eyes are open here; I'm curious. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Feb 13 2009 7:00:41 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 7:01:23 PM
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| BTW, alwayson, I saw your arguments on Tao Bums. Try to relax and not argue with them; if they had a karmic connect with dzogchen or mahamudra they would seek a lama. I know you are looking for one. I'm still looking into it. Don't you want a dzogchen lama? That is your fascination. |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 7:24:11 PM
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One point of distinction in Clear Light vis a vis mahamudra vs dzogchen is that in mahamudra the clear light is experienced as bliss, whereas I've read Heartdrops that it is "bliss or whatever." This indicates to me possibly that bliss is not really experienced as such. Or that the clear light is a "union of bliss and empty awareness" in mahamudra, but perhaps in dzogchen it is experienced merely as emptiness and awareness, where awareness encompasses bliss. I bring this up, because mahamudra uses the karmamudra which is sexual and therefore a powerful feeling of pleasure coincides. Milarepa also describes his tummo practice as what satisfies his body so that he can meditate all the time in the snow without eating or wearing any clothes.
It occurs to me now as I write this that mahamudra claims to produce nirmanakaya buddhas. Perhaps dzogchen produces sambogakaya buddhas. I'm not sure what the claim they have is. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 7:26:22 PM
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I never said phowa was the focus of mahamudra.
I said wikipedia referenced that your drikung kagyu lineage focuses on phowa
And then I asked whether this was correct |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 8:02:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
I never said phowa was the focus of mahamudra.
I said wikipedia referenced that your drikung kagyu lineage focuses on phowa
And then I asked whether this was correct
okee dokee |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2009 : 10:50:41 PM
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regarding your question, Mahamudra also results in rainbow body.
The reason you are confused, is that you read "Clear Light of Bliss."
Get some good completion stage books from your own lineage.
This whole illusory body nonsense is only in the Gelug school |
Edited by - alwayson on Feb 13 2009 11:32:51 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 09:10:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
regarding your question, Mahamudra also results in rainbow body.
The reason you are confused, is that you read "Clear Light of Bliss."
Get some good completion stage books from your own lineage.
This whole illusory body nonsense is only in the Gelug school
You are wrong. Read "The Life and Teaching of Naropa." Read "The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa" or "The Life of Milarepa." Milarepa is most revered, and his accomplishments are an example of the fruit. What I'm discussing has nothing to do with the book you mentioned, which is not authoritative and is written by a monk who left his order.
Actually, what I'm saying has nothing to do with any book. The Clear Light and illusory body is not nonsense. The Kagyu tradition has produced several nirmanakaya buddhas. The illusory body brings the siddhis. The Buddha himself mentions this fruit.
Actually, the real fruit of buddhahood is wisdom, which, foremost, is kindness and compassion. Another way of saying it is that the fruit is the View: To relax and rest your mind in its natural innate state of awareness, without hope or fear. The fruit of siddhis is when ego-clinging self-liberates in the fire of mindfulness. I have to say, my practice of mahamudra view, which is identical to dzogchen, has provided me with great joy and peacefulness in my extremely action-packed and high-risk work life. I'm actually not a scholar.
I can see that discussing things with you is not very fruitful. Your tone rings with hostility. That is unfortunate. We are not to argue and quibble over points which only results in the slander of good teaching. It's not appropriate. I won't be addressing dharma here any longer. I will let you know when I find a lama near you, but I suggest you join with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, as I have. There is a retreat in Cabo where you can practice thogal.
At some point, you will have to stop reading, and start practicing. Fare well. |
Edited by - themysticseeker on Feb 14 2009 10:10:30 AM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 1:45:35 PM
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I did not think my tone was hostile at all. Sorry if came out like that.
I thought Milarepa attained Complete Perfect rainbow body(Buddhahood) through Mahamudra during his lifetime, not an inferior nirmankaya illusory body.
Anyway good luck |
Edited by - alwayson on Feb 14 2009 4:39:25 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 2:37:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
I did not think my tone was hostile at all. Sorry if came out like that.
I thought Milarepa attained Complete Perfect rainbow body(Buddhahood) through Mahamudra during his lifetime, not an inferior nirmankaya illusory body.
Anyway good luck
Rainbow body is not important. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2009 : 9:06:29 PM
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| The Sambhogakaya is synonymous with Buddhahood, so I do not see how you repeatedley assert it is not important. |
Edited by - alwayson on Feb 15 2009 9:39:47 PM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2009 : 03:21:43 AM
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| whoops, wrong thread. |
Edited by - stevenbhow on Feb 22 2009 05:51:50 AM |
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elusive
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 04:48:42 AM
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i didn't read this whole thread because it seemed to be heading in a different direction to the original post but i just wanted to say that the same sky-gazing practice as well as dark retreat practice are mentioned in kashmir shaivism's vijnana bhairava tantra
however there is no mention of the rainbow body, just realization of the luminous empty mind
i've had various experiences with both practices
in blue sky gazing my mind emptied quickly and merged in the emptiness of the perception of the sky and there was a deep residual effect that lasted hours - like being enveloped by emptiness, moved by the spirit of sunyata if you like
in dark retreat the brain seems to flood with melatonin and visionary experiences occur quickly, much like as reported in john lilly's floatation tank experiences and of course the tradition of the tibetans with their dark retreat sessions and the visionary states they experience
dark retreat can lead to a very strange state of mind especially if one falls asleep and then awakens into the total darkness - it's like plunging directly into the deepest recesses of your mind with no boundaries, unconscious bubbles start floating to the surface for you to witness
i am very fond of sky-gazing and dark retreat though, they appeal to me greatly
when i was a child i had a spontaneous experience of sky-gazing that was quite significant
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Panthau
Austria
149 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 05:17:42 AM
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I believe that this is all nonsense and correct at the same time. Its our pure intention, that leads us to where we want to be.
I believe theres nothing like an objective truth. We´re all part of the one big nothing and have therefore the power of the one big nothing,
and our intention leads us to what we imagine. Thats why i believe that nearly every path leads to the same mountain, as long as your intention
and willpower is strong.
I tried one of these Kunlun courses, and found that the movement in the Kunlun position originates from the heartbeat. Still, if one believes in it,
and practices without interruption, it will lead to what he desires. Thats my believe system, thanks for reading :)
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Edited by - Panthau on Jun 30 2010 06:04:03 AM |
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May I introduce the highest Buddhist practice?
