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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 11:04:23 AM
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This is my understanding of Dzogchen. If you understand Dzogchen completely, you automatically understand the entirety of buddhism completely, atleast from the Mahayana viewpoint. Also, you cannot combine Dzogchen with any other system except hatha and pranayama.
First thing in Dzogchen is to repeat the following. You cannot skip this.
"I go for refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
By the merit I primordially have by abiding in the natural state, may I attain perfect Buddhahood to benefit infinite sentient beings."
Rigpa has two main wisdoms, Kadag and lhun grub. There is also a third wisdom, thugs rje (compassion), which is merely the inseparability of the other two.
Kadag (primordial purity) is simply how the highest Dzogchen view talks about emptiness.
Lhun grub (natural formation) is simply how Dzogchen talks about dependent origination.
And of course throughout Mahayana, emptiness and dependent origination are two sides of the same coin.
This is why I said earlier that if you understand Dzogchen, you understand buddhism.
The lhun grub aspect of rigpa should be ignored by everyone here. This has to do with secretive esoteric yogas that self-liberate the dependently originated human body into the Sambhogakaya (rainbow body phenomenon).
The symbol of Dzogchen is a Tibetan A wrapped in a rainbow thigle (google images "thigle"). The A represents kadag while the thigle represents lhun grub.
Ok so in Dzogchen, the fundamental point of the natural state/nonduality or what many of you call enlightenment is to distinguish rigpa from sems (mind). The distinguishing of rigpa and sems from each other is emphasized by Jigme Lingpa and goes back to the Seventeen Tantras.
Dzogchen is the only teaching that uses rigpa as the basis of the path. Other teachings take mind as the basis of the path. The mind ITSELF is considered an obscuration in Dzogchen. The Dalai Lama tries to reconcile Dzogchen with other buddhist teachings by sometimes considering rigpa an aspect of subtle mind, but this should be considered in context. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 26 2010 6:13:56 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 6:22:40 PM
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So how do you distinguish purity from the mind? The act of distinguishing sounds like an active process. What is doing the distinguishing, if not the mind?
Are you actually utilizing the mind in order to distinguish, or is there some other process beyond the operation of the mind that can distinguish? |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Jun 22 2010 6:37:32 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 10:43:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Dzogchen is the only teaching that uses kadag/emptiness/primordial purity as the basis of the path. Other teachings take mind as the path. The mind ITSELF is an obscuration.
Just distinguish crystal clear purity from the mind.
In Buddhism, this may be true (that only Dzogchen teaches primordial purity as the basis of the path).
However, Kashmir Shaivism teaches this, as well.
As Padmasambhava (founder of Dzogchen) wrote in one of his poems (which I quoted in the Awareness thread) did, Kashmir Shaivism uses the term "Awareness" for primordial purity.
Awareness doesn't imply mind.
Mind is partial and reflected.
Awareness is wholeness; awareness is original.
(Without Awareness, nothing else is.)
Just as Trikaya has Dharamakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, or the "three bodies" ...
Kashmir Shaivism (aka Trika Shaivism) has Shambhavobaya, Shaktopaya and Anavopaya, or the three means ...
... and Living Unbound has Awareness, Knowing and Living.
All three systems have Awareness/Primordial Purity as the original wholeness, which contains the mixed non-duality and duality of consciousness-mind (the second, or middle level), which contains the duality of form (manifestation).
These are all maps describing the same reality, which is all it's really all about, yes.
There are others, as well, of course.
It's not about a given system being "better" .... the best systems are the ones which help us know our own inherent liberation in ongoing experiencing.
Some systems, like AYP, don't focus on models, but rather on the practices and processes which can take us to the same place (all the way here, now).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Pranayama isn't a system, it's an activity, and one of the eight limbs of Patanjali's Ashtanga Yoga.
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 07:53:34 AM
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Hey guys!
Nice thread. alwayson2 can you tell us where to find good source of Dzogchen teaching, particularly meditative practice?
Kirtanman, thanks for your comments. Can you tell us where to find a good source of Kashmir Shaivism, particularly meditative practice? Since Swami Lakshmanjoo has long passed away, do you know if there are any active teaching realised masters from this tradition? If so, do they have an internet presence or if they are published?
Thanks guys!
Adam. |
Edited by - Adam West on Jun 23 2010 08:09:53 AM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 9:17:28 PM
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Hi Adam,
This is the Guru I follow. <http://www.shivayoga.org/> He has written an excellent introduction to Kashmir Shaivism. I have found his teachings to be very clear and useful. Hope this helps.
Steve |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 11:03:06 PM
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Hi Steve, your link didn't work for me. Is this it:
http://www.shivayoga.org
Love
cosmic |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 11:51:12 PM
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Yep, that's it. Thanks Cosmic. Much appreciated.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2010 : 4:44:52 PM
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| I edited my original post to make it more accurate. |
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Adam West
23 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2010 : 8:39:33 PM
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Thanks guys!
Adam. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 9:18:30 PM
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Hi Adam,
Out of respect for Alwayson's thread ... I'll plan to make some detailed recommendations in another thread (I'll link from here, when I do).
In short, anything by Swami Lakshmanjoo, Mark S.G. Dyckowski or Jaideva Singh, I recommend very highly.
I've only read a bit of Swami Shankarananda, but what I've read, I've liked.
And now, we will resume our regularly-scheduled Dzogchen discussion.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 9:28:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I edited my original post to make it more accurate.
Thanks, Alwayson.
I'm still not getting this:
"Dzogchen is the only teaching that uses rigpa as the basis of the path. Other teachings take mind as the basis of the path. The mind ITSELF is considered an obscuration in Dzogchen."
Again, this is true in Kashmir Shaivism, as well. In quite a few traditions, actually.
The Wikipedia article on Rigpa says that Rigpa is "is the primordial, nondual awareness advocated by the Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings."
Kashmir Shaivism uses the Sanskrit word Caitanya (inherently limitless non-dual awareness) to describe this same reality, and the Shiva Sutras begin with the statement Caitanyamatma (inherently limitless non-dual awareness is our true nature).
I'm not bringing this up to get into yet another comparison about traditions; I just think it's cool that this most important of truths is emphasized in such a primary, and identical way by both Dzogchen and Kashmir Shaivism.
I didn't know this, about Dzogchen, until this thread ... so, thanks for starting it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2010 : 9:39:28 PM
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Keep in mind rigpa is defined via the three wisdoms, not awareness as wikipedia suggests. Probably the one wisdom you should be focused on is primordial purity.
Also does kashmir shaivism distinguish between "That" and mind? |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 29 2010 08:50:27 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 9:07:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Keep in mind rigpa is defined via the three wisdoms, not awareness as wikipedia suggests. Probably the one wisdom you should be focused on is primordial purity.
Also does kashmir shaivism distinguish between "That" and mind?
I looked for some sources on the Three Wisdoms (via Google) per what you wrote above, and couldn't find any ... do you have any links to good sources?
And yes, Kashmir Shaivism distinguishes between That and mind more thoroughly than I've ever seen, anywhere.
Dzogchen may do so as well ... I've just never studied Dzogchen directly, so I don't know; that's one of the reasons I'm interested in discussing this.
Kashmir Shaivism, specifically Trika Shaivism, has several models which point to the reality of That (the "subject that can never be an object", aka Prakasa - the pure light of original awareness, aka {I'm pretty sure} Rigpa).
Anything reflective, i.e. consciousness-mind ... anything involving form, from the Universal and ultra-subtle, down to the specific and physically manifesting, is known via reflective awareness, Vimarsa.
Prakasa/Vimarsa.
Shiva/Shakti.
There are other models within Trika, but that's a start.
Simply put: Trika Shaivism is as emphatically clear about this distinction (between That and mind) as a system can be.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Trika Shaivism also distinguishes between actual consciousness-mind, and the pseudo-mind of the limited self-idea.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 29 2010 9:08:46 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 11:19:47 PM
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ka dag and lhun grub are in every Dzogchen book
Also I doubt kashmir shavaites take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 29 2010 11:39:06 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 2:58:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
ka dag and lhun grub are in every Dzogchen book
Thanks; I didn't know the Tibetan terms.
quote:
Also I doubt kashmir shavaites take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
You're right ..... but rumors of the essentiality of that step and that statement have been greatly exaggerated.
For Buddhists, I understand it's part of the program and I respect that.
However, it's of course not necessary to all systems.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 30 2010 6:31:08 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 3:14:52 PM
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| Refuge must be special, because I have never heard of a non-buddhist obtain rainbow body. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 4:39:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Refuge must be special, because I have never heard of a non-buddhist obtain rainbow body.
Just like there are different, equivalent terms for Rigpa, there are different, equivalent terms for Rainbow Body, and anything else.
If enlightenment, highest-Buddha-nature, etc. ... whatever terms one might wish to use for ultimately knowing our true nature was solely the domain of Buddhism, only Buddhists would have fully realized the truth of the fullness of being (aka enlightenment, highest-Buddha-nature, reality, this ... whatever you want to call it).
This is obviously not the case, and so, your emphasis here seems a bit superfluous.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 7:57:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
only Buddhists would have fully realized the truth of the fullness of being (aka enlightenment, highest-Buddha-nature, reality, this ... whatever you want to call it).
This is obviously not the case, and so, your emphasis here seems a bit superfluous.
But I submit that it is the case. Have you known any non-buddhist to gain rainbow body? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 8:50:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
only Buddhists would have fully realized the truth of the fullness of being (aka enlightenment, highest-Buddha-nature, reality, this ... whatever you want to call it).
This is obviously not the case, and so, your emphasis here seems a bit superfluous.
But I submit that it is the case. Have you known any non-buddhist to gain rainbow body?
I've never known anyone to gain rainbow body the way (if I recall correctly) that you've described it in the past (focused on the physical aspects and/or transformation).
My sense of it is: the rainbow body is yet another illustrative term (like resurrection, liberation from the cycle of birth and death, etc.) indicating the inherent limitlessness of our true nature.
As a bit of evidence for my hypothesis, please consider this:
The traditions which speak of the rainbow body are also traditions which emphasize that our true nature is not physical (i.e. we are not the body, etc. etc.)
Why would they point to an ultimate stage involving transformation of the physical?
It's enough to know we're not.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 9:06:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The traditions which speak of the rainbow body are also traditions which emphasize that our true nature is not physical (i.e. we are not the body, etc. etc.)
Thats not true. Rainbow body, Dzogchen and Vajrayana in general is based on esoteric anatomy i.e. channels, bindus etc.
Thus the thrust of the teachings is the opposite of what you suggest.
People a lot more knowledgeable than me, have emphasized the sooner you realize its about working with the esoteric anatomy of the body the better. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 9:39:46 PM
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| I would have used the phrase tantric anatomy instead of esoteric anatomy, but somehow people on this forum think tantra=sex. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 9:47:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
The traditions which speak of the rainbow body are also traditions which emphasize that our true nature is not physical (i.e. we are not the body, etc. etc.)
Thats not true. Rainbow body, Dzogchen and Vajrayana in general is based on esoteric anatomy i.e. channels, bindus etc.
Thus the thrust of the teachings is the opposite of what you suggest.
People a lot more knowledgeable than me, have emphasized the sooner you realize its about working with the esoteric anatomy of the body the better.
No, that's cool ... I just mis-remembered what you wrote before.
My point was mostly that the end-point (aka the beginning point, aka the *whole* point) of Dzogchen is the same as with all non-dual systems ... the primordial purity ever-preceding and superseding mind and manifestation.
Dzogchen teaches it; so does Kashmir Shaiviusm, so did Ramana Maharashi, so do all authentic non-dual systems.
Certain among them ... namely Dzogchen and Kashmir Shaivism, just seem to be much more explicit about it.
By the way: Mahamudra seems to be the linchpin connecting Dzogchen and Kashmir Shaivism. Both systems teach it; the Spandakarika is dedicated to it, as, I understand, are certain Dzogchen texts and teachings as well.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2010 : 10:00:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
My point was mostly that the end-point (aka the beginning point, aka the *whole* point) of Dzogchen is the same as with all non-dual systems ... the primordial purity ever-preceding and superseding mind and manifestation.
No the endpoint of Dzogchen is the rainbow body/Sambhogakaya. Its actually the whole thrust of Dzogchen, because Sambhogakaya=Buddhahood.
Realizing the nature of the mind is the START point, when you are directly introduced by the teacher.
So people master nonduality week one LOL
And I want to emphasize again, that Dzogchen works with various channels in the body. It is a very body based approach. This may be a connecting link with kashmir shaivism. Doesn't kashmir shaivism have sushumna, ida, pingala etc.?
Thats why they are both considered tantric. Tantric has nothing to do with sex. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 30 2010 11:02:50 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 2:41:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
My point was mostly that the end-point (aka the beginning point, aka the *whole* point) of Dzogchen is the same as with all non-dual systems ... the primordial purity ever-preceding and superseding mind and manifestation.
No the endpoint of Dzogchen is the rainbow body/Sambhogakaya. Its actually the whole thrust of Dzogchen, because Sambhogakaya=Buddhahood.
Interesting. It appears that Dharmakaya is higher that Sambhogakaya, yes?
Also, you are aware that Sambho (or Shambho) is a name of Shiva, yes?
quote:
So people master nonduality week one LOL
Good for them.  In scenarios like that, however, as some of us here know, sustaining it is the tough part, which sort of belies the term "master", a bit (LOL).
I recall reading somewhere that even the fast-track to enlightenment in Dzogchen is said to take about six years, at least.
quote:
And I want to emphasize again, that Dzogchen works with various channels in the body. It is a very body based approach.
Interesting, but - what about the clarity beyond mind, etc. etc.? That's kind of the other end of the spectrum from energy channels (the only thing more gross than energy channels is the physical body itself).
Are you saying that Dzogchen has a methodology which focuses on energy channels, which leads to enlightenment?
quote:
This may be a connecting link with kashmir shaivism. Doesn't kashmir shaivism have sushumna, ida, pingala etc.?
Yes, but they don't focus on Ida or Pingala at all, really.
Even pranayama and hatha-type practices are at the lowest (individual) level of Kashmir Shaivism.
Kashmir Shaivism's entire focus is creating conscious awareness of how awareness operates (see Vijnanabhairava, Spandakarika and Shiva Sutras for details), in order to, as Ksemaraja said, "Help the partially enlightened to become fully enlightened."
(And so, the focus regarding sushumna has to do with the consciousness-related aspects, more than the energy-related aspects, though obviously, pranayama practices can help to facilitate this.)
quote:
Thats why they are both considered tantric. Tantric has nothing to do with sex.
Correct; the term tantra and tantric are very misunderstood. I would have understood it in its more complete context, if you had used that term, though (just FYI).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 01 2010 3:24:50 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 4:46:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Interesting. It appears that Dharmakaya is higher that Sambhogakaya, yes?
No. All the kayas are inseperable.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Yes, but they don't focus on Ida or Pingala at all, really.
Even pranayama and hatha-type practices are at the lowest (individual) level of Kashmir Shaivism.
Shaivism is well known for kundalini practices involving ida, pingala, sushumna. And thats a good thing. I respect Shaivism for that. This stuff is important for rainbow body.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Are you saying that Dzogchen has a methodology which focuses on energy channels, which leads to enlightenment?
Yes of course. It was always in the first post. Read the bit about "esoteric yogas" leading to Sambhogakaya (Buddhahood). |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 9:53:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Interesting. It appears that Dharmakaya is higher that Sambhogakaya, yes?
No. All the kayas are inseperable.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Yes, but they don't focus on Ida or Pingala at all, really.
Even pranayama and hatha-type practices are at the lowest (individual) level of Kashmir Shaivism.
Shaivism is well known for kundalini practices involving ida, pingala, sushumna. And thats a good thing. I respect Shaivism for that. This stuff is important for rainbow body.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Are you saying that Dzogchen has a methodology which focuses on energy channels, which leads to enlightenment?
Yes of course. It was always in the first post. Read the bit about "esoteric yogas" leading to Sambhogakaya (Buddhahood).
Cool; good input and info; thanks.
I'll read up a bit more and then maybe we can discuss.
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Dzogchen Summarized
