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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
 Posted - May 24 2008 : 5:35:16 PM
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I have been meditating for years now. My friends often ask me what I hope to achieve when I meditate. Does it lead to a glimpse of the Atman (Soul) or Brahman (The Supreme)? When I tell them that it is no more useful to attaining Moksha (Deliverence) than getting stoned, they look surprised. Didn't all the great ones past and present meditate? Didn't Buddha attain enlightenment by sitting under the fabled Bodhi tree for years on end and meditating on the nature of life and the causes of suffering?
I believe in what Adi Sankara pointed out. The Upanishads state categorically: "Tat tvam asi" - That thou art.
It is a mere statement. Not a commandment. The verd is in the simple, indicative mood. "That thou art.
Which basically means that we are all part of Brahman, the infinite, imperishable, The One and the Only. It expresses the non-duality of creation. It abolishes any notion of the external world and the I. It does not leave room for God being separate from us.
There are those, who on the other hand, contend that the only way to attain Moksha is through meditation. They quote Veda segments that say, for example, "This Atman which is free from all stain, deserves to be sought after and striven to be known."
This is a classic example of how Jnana is seen to be the be-all and end-all and meditating upon the Ultimate the pathway to this knowledge or Jnana.
But Sankara was pretty clear about this: But taking this interpretation, Moksha will become the effect of an action. For meditation is a mental action. And like any action, it can be done, or not done, or done in a counter-productive manner. In meditation you impose one entity on another by the imposition of the will of the mind and generate a new effect which did not exist before. Brahma Vidya (knowledge of the Ultimate) is self-awareness. It is attained neither through knowledge nor meditation. (Here I am going one step further from Sankara who called it knowledge, because I feel the use of the English word 'knowlege' here detracts from the spirit of what he meant by using the Sanskrit term 'Jnana'.I prefer to use the term self-awareness for 'Jnana').
Self-awareness is a mental state of 'being what one has always been' and not 'becoming into something that was not before'. The latter can be called meditation - it is an action. Along with rituals, meditation may lead to what we commonly call Jnana or knowledge. But Such Jnana (call it action of the mind, if you will), is only by way of removing obstacles, and not about bringing a new condition or effect.
When the obstacles are removed, the truth that 'the Atman (Soul) has always been Brahman (the Ultimate)stands revealed.
This is not an effect. It does not come via blinding lights or revelations or during epiletic fits. It is not something 'new' that did not exist before the revelation. It was and has always been in that state.
It is not knowledge (by definition, knowledge has to be sought after, acquired, codified and may be passed on). Neither can it be revealed through Bhakti. Because then it would mean that it can be gained through grace, or equally, withheld. Nor can it be via Karma. That would negate the fact that it is not the effect of something that you do or don't do.
It is simply the nature of things. Tat tvam asi. That thou art.
NOTE: The Vedas are divided into two: The Karma section, consisting of 4 principal texts that contain instructions for rituals. There there are the Jnana sections, commonly known as the Upanishads. These are the crown jewels of the Vedas, also called Vedanta, or the philosophic section of the Vedas. Along with the Brahma Sutras, they constitute the full canon of philosophical reflections on the nature of our existence and the existential questions we have been faced with from times ancient. |
Edited by - shankar on May 24 2008 6:05:44 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2008 : 04:39:23 AM
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Hi Shankar
And welcome to the forum!
quote:
When I tell them that it is no more useful to attaining Moksha (Deliverence) than getting stoned, they look surprised.
Well.....I never practised getting stoned.... .....so I wouldn't know. Although....ecstatic conductivity definitely gives me an idea of the feeling :-)
I agree that it is not about attaining anything. But after more than 20 years of regular meditation, I definitely perceive the facticity og life in a different way. It is one thing to intellectually "know" that Brahman is all and that "that thou art".....it is a whole other ballgame to actually perceive it.
In my experience deep meditation quiets the mind......and some of the silence lingers after practise. In this space....it is possible to taste life in a deeper way. Or rather.....life influences me in a different way. It is like an inner teaching.
Until I joined this forum two years ago I never knew anything about Jnana, Bakhti and Karma. I still don't. I agree that no idea....no theory...can substitute Being (Brahman).
On the other hand - in retrospect reading about Jnana, Bakhti and Karma brought order to my intellect concerning the different perceptions I had already experienced. It was more like a validation than a crutch.
What is your take on the subject of "purification", Shankar? The nervous system goes through a process....before it is possible to permanently percieve Reality. I know mine does....it is very factual.....
Meditating....or rather.....perceiving life with a quiet mind is very profund. Great calmness is always with me.....even in moments of stress.
And I am not even enlightened
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2008 : 12:11:17 AM
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Shankar, I agree. Isness definetly is, and I am what I am haha. hehe, it seems so silly to put it that way, here we are arguing about what or who we are. And in the argument is found the answer :o, deep.
haha
But, I like being anti deep, not shallow, but anti deep, and I really like how you stated the above, so I might have to steal some of your info and such.
As for meditation being needed for enlightenment... I wouldn't say it's needed, one can practice being in tune with themselves and their surroundings any place any time, just in society nowadays, probably all days, I reckon it just kinda helps to have that time to "go in" and then... to later "go out", and party :), or something along those lines haha.
I forgot the name of the guy who said it, supposodly a "realised being" though, but he said "you can't avoid your Self for over". So... I guess the question is, does meditation speed things up? Does karma need to be "burned" before the self is realised? Does "self awareness" somehow need to "outweigh" this karmah if indeed enlightened folks still hold some form of karma? What is karma? If what it's tied down to is illusif as they say... well once you see that as illusif, wouldn't it all just poof, blow away in the wind and just kind of linger on as the sound of leafs rustling.
Instant enlightenment vs. ermm... that other path that involves many years of purification, who wins? heh, win. "hey guys, I'm me!" haha. Seriously though, it's a question I dig, instant vs purification, is one a more "real" enlightenment? Shall we even try and define enlightenment to answer this one haha? |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2008 : 5:31:55 PM
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Hi Katrina!
Good to hear from you. There is no real disconnet between us. My point was that we should not mistake the various efforts we make to achieve peace of mind to the reality of awareness itself. We all seek a "safe haven" from time to time from the intrusiveness of Maya or the perceived reality, which too, is a reflection of Brahman. Meditation is an excellent excercise to achieve this silence. But I just meant that this or any other action of the mind or body, should not become an end in itself. I know in fact, of some who look upon meditation and different forms of spiritual activities as ends in themselves.
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What is your take on the subject of "purification" Shankar?
Purification is a complex topic. Are we talking about purifying our thoughts and actions? Then I am with you. "No one can know Brahman who is not true and pure".
But I do hope we don't fall into the trap of thinking that we need to purify the Atman (Soul) itself in order to perceive Brahman. This is not necessary. This follows from the fact that the Atman and the Brahman are one and the same. Or to put it more correctly, the Atman is the manifestation of the Brahman. Purifying the one would amount to cleansing the other. Now, when Brahman is an infinite, immanent reality it would do us no good to even attempt to "purify" the soul. How are we to clean that which cannot be seen or even defined or beyond our imagination?
There is another aspect to the "Atman" which is well worth remembering. Just like Brahman is always singular, so is Atman. There are no "souls" (plural). Each one of us does not have a soul or Atman separate from the other souls in the Universe. All the souls are simply reflections of the single Atman, like multiple reflections of our face on a body of water with many bubbles in it. Think of this body of water as the world of Maya. So once again, since one does not have an individual Soul, with a unique registration number to look after, there is no case for "purifying" it:). But one can contribute to keeping the jointly-held Atamn is good order through good karma.
So to me, "purification" is too strong a word. At most, it refers to controlling the processes of the body and mind and I prefer not to think of my mental and physical processes as so "dirty" that they must undergo "purification". But what I do need is to focus my energies, reign in my mind which has a tendency to wander in all sorts of directions, try and enter a state of "nothingness" from time to time. This is exactly what I am attempting when I enter into meditation.
Even this state of "nothingness" is debatable because it exists in my memory. If it exists in my memory, is it really "nothingness?. Only the rarest of the rare have attained the fourth state of consciousness where the mind is detached and is a spectator to its own thoughts. Most of us have to be content with either being Awake (Jagrata), Dreaming (Swapna) or Dreamless Sleep (Susupti).
To end, here's an anectode from the Prasnopanishad, one of the oldest and most interesting of the Upanishads. In it, six guys turn up at the residence of a sage, each with a question of the sort we all have from time to time: "Where does the Universe come from?", "What is the relation between our sensory organs and the vital life force in our body?", and so forth. The entire Upanishad is in the form of answers to six questions - one from each of these six guys.
But before answering the questions, the sage told the fellows to practise celibacy and simple living for a year and then get back to him. They did, and he answered their questions.
Now, these were pretty tough questions. Very basic, yet the sort of stuff that we think we should spend years moping about. But the sage only asked them to "purify" themselves for a year. He did not ask them to spend years punishing their bodies, undergoing complicated rituals or whatever. Just be good for a year and he was ready to reveal all.
The story tells us something. Pretty much everybody is fit for awareness almost right away. At most, we need to prepare ourselves by making some course corrections, much like a sailship turning to take advantage of a good wind. Adopt some good practices in our daily life. And then we can be off and away! Of course, we need to make sure that we keep up the good habits.
But nevertheless, the two are not interdependent. You can start being Aware right away while you keep working to improve your thoughts and actions.
I suspect the sage told those six fellows to come back after staying sober for a year because they looked like six kids straight from spring break.
Thanks for making me reflect over this! You made me think about these things. I haven't done that for a while:) |
Edited by - shankar on May 26 2008 6:00:47 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 06:15:45 AM
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Hi Shankar
quote:
Purification is a complex topic. Are we talking about purifying our thoughts and actions? Then I am with you. "No one can know Brahman who is not true and pure".
The way I see it .....purification is that which removes the obstacles to the perception of Clarity, Love, Joy and Peace. These are not emotions.......but aspects of the singular reality we are all reflections of. I know I am not capable of purifying anything....but when surrendered to the inner calmness.... purification takes place in spite of me. It is not I that purify thoughts and actions......but when I listen to the inner wordless teaching, the result is a lessening of actions that contribute to further effort and striving. And in this let go.....in this relaxation.....the Clarity, Love and Joy is a fact that perceives itself....
However - I can only speak for myself. It is very obvious that the nervous system undergoes changes. The ecstatic conductivity (or Kundalini if you will...) is definitely doing something with the body. And the spinal chord is definitely linked with this process. There is constant activity from root to brow to crown and above....always. Even in sleep. And all the chakras can be felt clearly (also the smaller ones....in fingers and feet) This was not the case a few years ago.....so something must have made this perception possible. Whether to call it purification or not is of lesser importance.....but it seems an ok discription.....since the result is clear sight and broader perception.
I never think about Atman....the soul....or any of the theories concerning these. It is more than enough for me to digest the life that is here now. So no.....I don't at all consider the necessity of purification of the Atman. There is so much purity in Life as it is! Nothing needs improvement......
The felt singularity is always stunning.......most of all the fact that it is not something separate....it is the fact of everything. It is also shining......I perceive it as a colorless, stunning, loving clarity that emanates from everything I am aware of.
quote:
Self-awareness is a mental state of 'being what one has always been' and not 'becoming into something that was not before'. The latter can be called meditation - it is an action.
Meditation is both. It is a little "doing" that leads to a lot of "non-doing".....which is why "being what one has always been" has a possibility to stand out as that which is most clearly perceived. The repeating of the mantra is a "doing".....while the silence contacted....is just that. The silence contacted renders the mind in a meditative (quiet) state. Which - to me - is simply a totally quiet openness. Some may enter this openness without "doing" meditation.....but most people cannot. We need some kind of tool.....and deep meditation is one such tool. It is not it...as you say. But for me it is a great help on the way.
Outside "meditation time" I spontaniously fall into long intervals of this silence. In my experience the silence cannot be remembered. It is impossible to store. The depth and fullness of the emptiness cannot be explained...not even to myself. I have to be here to know it.
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Now, when Brahman is an infinite, immanent reality it would do us no good to even attempt to "purify" the soul
I completely agree, Shankar. In fact.....no striving; no taking the wheel in our own hands; can ever lead to Brahman....only take us away from it. But staying comfortable in ignorance is not an option either. So.....to do as little as possible - with a devoted intention - so that life can influence and mould us with its own wisdom.....seems to me to be a way of growing towards the understanding that "that thou art".
You say it right here:
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Pretty much everybody is fit for awareness almost right away. At most, we need to prepare ourselves by making some course corrections, much like a sailship turning to take advantage of a good wind. Adopt some good practices in our daily life. And then we can be off and away! Of course, we need to make sure that we keep up the good habits.
This is it!
And the "at most" may very for every individual.....we all walk different tracks......but not to take advantage of the good wind when it is available is foolish. Meditation is one such allignment. There are many others, but deep meditation works for me.
And to be off and away is such great fun, is it not!
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You can start being Aware right away while you keep working to improve your thoughts and actions.
I would say to be Aware right away is all. I don't bother improving thoughts or actions......I've been striving at that for eons. My intention is to understand. If ignorance and the thoughts and actions that follow in its wake don't drop away of itself; then simply be more aware. Stay awake to each moment as it presents itself.....flaws and all. I feel the very fact of life has so much to teach me.....be I only willing to truly look at it. That is why I meditate. It helps me to be aware.
And nothing compares to the joy of understanding.
Se this post:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3782
It is great talking to you Shankar 
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 5:51:30 PM
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Hi Katrine!
some beautiful thoughts here. love the way you are able to express them. i have over the years trained myself not to respond too quickly to verbalisations. these are expressions of our individual feelings. at the same time, they are often the result of deeply-felt experiences and sometimes, desires too.
there is therefore, no objective interpretations of what is expressed through words. so i would rather internalise the "feelings" projected by your posting, and try and assimilate all the good vibrations that i can take away from them. it's a beautiful feeling...
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The way I see it .....purification is that which removes the obstacles to the perception of Clarity, Love, Joy and Peace. These are not emotions.......but aspects of the singular reality we are all reflections of.
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Sankara talked about this - SatChitAnanda (BeingConsciousnessBliss). The state one is when the Atman is at one with the Brahman. But to get there, one has to be in a state of nothingness mentally. A state in which the mind is a spectator to its own thoughts, as I mentioned earlier.
But even in the perceived world, when one is dealing with the reflections of the singular reality, which you speak of, it is perfectly possible to feel these emotions. But to deny that this happy state is unrelated to our senses would not be totally accurate, nor is it necessary. The ecstasy of being part of Life itself, as you say, is enough to permeate ourselves with Joy, and as long as we have to spend most of our time in this perceived world, we might as well look upon our sensory perceptions - physical as well as emotional ones - as our allies, helping us to achieve balance and bliss while we go about our daily lives.
Maya has got a bad rap, and some of it quite unjustified. Remember that what we call Maya is a reflection of the true divinity at a temporal level. Like looking at yourself in the mirror when you are all dressed up and liking what you see. The trick here is not to be fooled into thinking that this mirror image is the true you. Neither is there a need to get grossed out over your own reflection either. It is hot, and well worth appreciating. We thank our sensory perceptions - in this case the eyes; or our emotions, in this case a pleasant feeling over having done a great job of matching our shoes to the top.
In this way, our emotions play along with us in the world, and help us make the best of the reflected reality. Hence, our emotions are valuable and worth appreciating for those reasons. Without our emotions we would not feel Love nor Bliss.
This is when our emotions are at their positive. But when we go down the path of destructiveness and Avidya, we can generate emotions that are quite capable of harming us pretty badly.
But for all that, the higher reality is not about any of these things. This is why, the few enlightened ones who have entered that state, talk about an emptiness. No emotions. No light. No Joy or Love. These are only possible at the level of the perceived reality, filtered through the prisms of the senses. Hence the term Maya - Illusion. That is because Brahman is a void where no such things exist. Where there is Brahman, no Illusion exists. (Again, I use the term Illusion here without attaching any of the negatives to it, which is so common).
For all of us, me included, we can merely strive to reach the higher levels of bliss and contentment generated by our senses and emotions. Not a bad deal, compared to remaining ignorant or not trying at all, as you rightly point out.
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However - I can only speak for myself. It is very obvious that the nervous system undergoes changes. The ecstatic conductivity (or Kundalini if you will...) is definitely doing something with the body. Whether to call it purification or not is of lesser importance.....but it seems an ok discription.....since the result is clear sight and broader perception.
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You said it! It is perception. The mind is a powerful tool. It is also constantly trying to give us what we want. For those who are unaware, it leads them. To those who are consciously trying to harness it, it gives them what they expect it to give them.
The Mind can be both suggestive and subtle. Very few of us know when the Mind ends and Consciousness begins.
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Meditation is both. It is a little "doing" that leads to a lot of "non-doing".....and deep meditation is one such tool. It is not it...as you say. But for me it is a great help on the way.
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I think we agree on this. Meditation cannot be both. Just like the road cannot be the destination.
However, as long as we remain on the road, being dazzled by the sights that pass us by, stopping at every wayside diner and taking diversions to places that sound interesting that are just " a few miles away, we can easily be back on the freeway by sundown", we are simply postponing our arrival at our real destination. The same if we are never satisfied with the car we are driving and keep changing it for something "better".
In this case, our destination is inner peace and emptiness. Meditation is the road. The vehicle you are sitting in is the techniques you use to meditate.
Try to get to your destination without getting too distracted along the way and you will find the journey simpler. Not necessarily faster. You will have breakdowns, accidents, log-jams, bad-weather, maybe even drop dead before you get to your final stop. But at least you are being sincere.
While in the earlier scenario, you have only yourself to blame if you don't get where you want to be. You say you want to get there, but along the way you get bamboozled by your own ego and stay on the road forever.
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And to be off and away is such great fun, is it not!
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And you know what? You don't need a driver's license to get on the road. Just a trainer's license will do. And as you keep driving you will keep getting better at it. All this while, your destination will remain where it has always been. Waiting for you.
Happy driving!
p.s. Please disregard all the times I use "you" in the above. It is a figure of speech and not meant to address you directly. |
Edited by - shankar on May 28 2008 04:14:46 AM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2008 : 12:37:47 AM
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Shankar, thank you for your posts, I really enjoy the way you put things. I know I tend to be a little silly and wayward in my manner of speaking, though enlightenment is something I take seriously (sometimes... by my lack of seriousness haha. I'm really not a fan of "boxing things in" and such, but... it happens haha). I dunno, I tend to take a very much "it's all right in front of you" approach, it just seems more "right" for most everyday situations.
bah anyway... this is my long winded Thank you for being you :) hehe.
There's just one thing though, it seems no matter how "right" it sounds when someone is speaking of enlightenment and consciousness and such, there's always that feeling of "something's missing".
...
and then he was enlightened. haha
I think that's where I'm at right now. My current path towards "enlightenment". Good or bad, it's all good, it feels a little head heavy and almost too happy for no reason at times haha, I've got some grounding work to do, but again, thank you, posts like yours keep me in touch with this spiritual path and sharing it with others.
Anyway, peace out, Namaste, and happy driving to you my friend :). (ughh, im 20 and still don't have my license though haha).
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2008 : 05:43:36 AM
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Hi Shankar
I really enjoyed your post
quote:
But even in the perceived world, when one is dealing with the reflections of the singular reality, which you speak of, it is perfectly possible to feel these emotions. But to deny that this happy state is unrelated to our senses would not be totally accurate, nor is it necessary. The ecstasy of being part of Life itself, as you say, is enough to permeate ourselves with Joy, and as long as we have to spend most of our time in this perceived world, we might as well look upon our sensory perceptions - physical as well as emotional ones - as our allies, helping us to achieve balance and bliss while we go about our daily lives.
I hope I am not "denying that this happy state is unrelated to our senses"......what I tried to communicate was the fact that the senses (nervous system) are able to perceive that which is subtle. And there seems to be no end to that...finer and finer the deeper I sink into it. It is a great joy to me to be able to "taste" - in broad daylight - the deeper significance of the fact of life. It is completely fulfilling I guess that is why I still don't feel like mentally occupying myself with what the different scriptures say about it. I don't want the space I treasure so to fill up....then the taste suddenly diminishes. However.....I enjoy immensley reading what you say. I read.....absorbe.....and then off it goes......I do feel both empty and nourished - I just don't want to hang on to the words
quote:
there is therefore, no objective interpretations of what is expressed through words. so i would rather internalise the "feelings" projected by your posting, and try and assimilate all the good vibrations that i can take away from them. it's a beautiful feeling...
I feel just like you.....thanks for expressing it!
I still don't feel like calling the clarity, love and joy emotions though.....I wonder why the word doesn't resonate as true? It could be the fact that to me, an emotion is a movement....something that wells up from somewhere......while as the joy and clarity is allencompassing and instant. It is litterally all over the place....and yet it is dynamic...it is vibrant. It doesn't "come and go" as an emotion, though. It is I (the mind) that move if "it" disappears....(in the beginning glimpses I thought it left me.....but this is not so.....it is when I move that I "lose" it)
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In this way, our emotions play along with us in the world, and help us make the best of the reflected reality. Hence, our emotions are valuable and worth appreciating for those reasons. Without our emotions we would not feel Love nor Bliss.
The emotions are a gift! Without them ....no understanding would have been possible for me. If I am untrue.....or supress....they immediately tell on me. So yes......I could not have navigated without them.
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But for all that, the higher reality is not about any of these things. This is why, the few enlightened ones who have entered that state, talk about an emptiness. No emotions. No light. No Joy or Love. These are only possible at the level of the perceived reality, filtered through the prisms of the senses. Hence the term Maya - Illusion. That is because Brahman is a void where no such things exist. Where there is Brahman, no Illusion exists. (Again, I use the term Illusion here without attaching any of the negatives to it, which is so common).
Reminding myself of this.....remembering this.....would still just be a mental set up.....a controlled filling. And no theory nourishes.....I can't feel the vibrancy of life in this statement, Shankar. The void is what makes everything possible........it is here. I may think i don't perceive it.....but surely....it still perceives itself?
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Very few of us know when the Mind ends and Consciousness begins.
Are they not simultanious?
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I think we agree on this. Meditation cannot be both. Just like the road cannot be the destination.
Logically speaking, no. But still......meditation is helping me accept that my destination is always exactly where I am at...no matter where I am. There is nothing ahead. There seems to be so much inner peace.....and so little of an action.....
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And as you keep driving you will keep getting better at it. All this while, your destination will remain where it has always been. Waiting for you.
Right here
Thanks again, Shankar
PS do you use the icon with the red arrow when you paste the quotes? |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2008 : 8:47:57 PM
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Hi Divineis!
I am not much of a believer in "it was meant to be". I know I am here because I have somehow expressed a wish to spend time with all the wonderful folks on this site, and here I am. So no need to thank me
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Divineis: There's just one thing though, it seems no matter how "right" it sounds when someone is speaking of enlightenment and consciousness and such, there's always that feeling of "something's missing".
I see perfectly where you are headed. When you say that you have a feeling of "something's missing", it's a sure sign that you are awakening. There is no need to push it, to force it to appear. Your longing will take you there. A lot of people never even get to the point of missing something. So, no worries:)
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Divineis: Good or bad, it's all good, it feels a little head heavy and almost too happy for no reason at times...
Makes me feel I could "show" you how happy I am for you. Happiness for "no reason" and not "being able" to separate the "good from the bad" are sure signs that you are in the Moment, not distracted by what might be. Keep at it. What feels good is good.
And don't get hung up about Enlightenment. Just enjoy the ride and be amazed at where you end up.
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Edited by - shankar on May 29 2008 12:10:12 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 08:12:03 AM
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Welcome, shankar.
Brahman is a generic/absolute term and some say it means "ever growing" or "ever expanding" or "to grow" and is used both as a representation of personal self awareness and this relational aspect to the Universal Unknowable Aspect.
We can call brahman the personal self and atman the physical, mental, spiritual/dream expression. Also, Brahman the Absolute Self, which expresses and Atman through the Universal Physical, Mental, Spiritual. First, we get to know the personal self and when the witness is established we move outward into cosmic samyama or yoga nidra dependent on the person and understand our connectedness to this Universal Consciousness through knowledge, understanding and experience.
To use your analogy on emotion, we see ourselves with clothes on, get naked, and then are able to dress for any occasion. But there's a difference between a person donning a suit and tie calling him/herself a business person, to observers passing by, compared to a person who wears the clothes accompanied by knowledge, understanding and experience who knows how to run a business. So when it's mentioned that Brahman is beyond knowledge, it's not that knowledge is unneccesary, but is spoken from a universal perspective and not that other people are considered less without Jnana or Bhakti or are incapabable of grasping a universal perspective, but it's limited without meditative purification. Just as the light of the sun isn't going to shine as brighty as a dust covered mirror.
quote:
shankar: But I do hope we don't fall into the trap of thinking that we need to purify the Atman (Soul) itself in order to perceive Brahman. This is not necessary. This follows from the fact that the Atman and the Brahman are one and the same. Or to put it more correctly, the Atman is the manifestation of the Brahman. Purifying the one would amount to cleansing the other. Now, when Brahman is an infinite, immanent reality it would do us no good to even attempt to "purify" the soul. How are we to clean that which cannot be seen or even defined or beyond our imagination?
The personal physical, mental, and causal dream worlds all need purification and are interconnected so that the universal Brahman can be expressed through the Atman; which utilizes, again, the universal physical, mental and dream expressions through meditation (Maya) to understand inclusiveness and oneness.
There is the physical, such as a person perceiving interaction within daily life and the universal physical of the world around us in relation to this expression. To use the clothing analogy, it's understanding mentally that the clothing may be from a sheep that got it's nourishment from a plant, which got it's growth from the soil, which mirrors this internal spiritual trans-formative quality within the person that is brought to awareness in the form of intuition, insight or whatever; to use a metaphor.
With that said, I believe that with God/The Unknowable anything is possible, so I just wanted to add my pennies worth to this discussion.
Namaste:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on May 29 2008 09:24:19 AM |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 2:49:44 PM
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Thanks Shankar (I don't care about what you said. Thank you :P ). I'm not a believer of fate either, I just know I have a certain pull towards some people. Like the dude who owns my local convenience store. I swear, he's been like... my guru for a little without even knowing it. Without even talking about enlightenment or meditation or any of that. I guess I appreciate that sort of trust in the universe, that things usually come to you when you need em, good or bad. Ok, I take back my thank you to you... it's now "thank you universe" (which you are part of :P) for being generous and letting me grow and figure stuff out :-D.
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 8:04:33 PM
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Hi Kristine!
I have been internalising your post for the last couple of days. Not chewing over it, just letting it condense into dew drops on the flower of my heart. Just content to let it freshen my inner petals up. There was so much "felt" experience in that post that I had to allow it permeate me for a while. So thank you
I was packing my books today because I'm moving house this weekend, and one little paperback, only a few inches x a few inches fell out and insisted on being attended to. I haven't touched this collection of quotes from Ramana Maharshi for a long, long time. But today, it want to be part of the post. I didn't ask for it out loud. It just happened.
So excuse me if I get "quoty" in today's post. I would just like to say that I don't quote unless I have felt or experienced what the quotation is about. Being intellectually convinced is not enough. Not when it comes to spiritual matters.
quote:
Katrine wrote: It is I (the mind) that move if "it" disappears....(in the beginning glimpses I thought it left me.....but this is not so.....it is when I move that I "lose" it)
"Grace is within you. If it is external, it is useless. Grace is the Self. All that is necessary is to know its operation in you. You are never out of its operation. Grace is ever there."- Ramana Maharshi
Just as you are there when you are in dreamless sleep, even though you have no recollection of it when you awake, there is no way you could have "removed" yourself out of the Shine. The Shine is always there, you are always in it.
The Mind is telling you that the Shine is gone, or that you have "moved yourself" and therefore it is gone, because it is the nature of the Mind to play with us (see my earlier entry on how the Mind gives us what we want).
And you know that already Katrine, because here is what you wrote in another context, in another thread, some months ago:
quote:
Katrine wrote: But the mind makes it it's own need. The mind wants to own the shine.....not knowing that it itself is a product of it. The mind wants this more than its own death (understandable...isn't it?).
Marvellously put
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shankar wrote: But for all that, the higher reality is not about any of these things. This is why, the few enlightened ones who have entered that state, talk about an emptiness. No emotions. No light. No Joy or Love. These are only possible at the level of the perceived reality, filtered through the prisms of the senses. Hence the term Maya - Illusion. That is because Brahman is a void where no such things exist. Where there is Brahman, no Illusion exists. (Again, I use the term Illusion here without attaching any of the negatives to it, which is so common).
quote:
Katrine wrote: Reminding myself of this.....remembering this.....would still just be a mental set up.....a controlled filling. And no theory nourishes.....I can't feel the vibrancy of life in this statement, Shankar. The void is what makes everything possible........it is here. I may think i don't perceive it.....but surely....it still perceives itself?
I can see you rolling your eyes, "There he goes again, spouting spricture". I agree with you, no theory nourishes.
Again, to quote Ramana Maharshi:
" The sastras(scriptures/theories) become useless when their essence is realised. The scriptures are useful to indicate the existence of the Higher Power and the way to gain it. That is all."
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shankar wrote: Very few of us know when the Mind ends and Consciousness begins.
quote:
Katrine wrote: Are they not simultanious?
The mind is nothing but the stream of thoughts that passes through Consciousness. So yes, they are simultaneous, but they are not the same. The Mind need not be aware of the Consciousness. Becoming aware of one's Consciousness and letting go of the Mind is pretty much worth trying for
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shankar wrote: I think we agree on this. Meditation cannot be both. Just like the road cannot be the destination.
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Katrine wrote: Logically speaking, no. But still......meditation is helping me accept that my destination is always exactly where I am at...no matter where I am. There is nothing ahead. There seems to be so much inner peace.....and so little of an action.....
Ramana Maharshi again: "Meditation requires an object to meditate upon, whereas in vichara or introspection, there is only the subject without the object. Meditation differs from introspection in this way".
This goes back to my first post where I wrote about Self Awareness.
What a wonderful way to remind ourselves of who we are. Thank you for keeping me on track with these reflections!
quote:
Katrine wrote: PS do you use the icon with the red arrow when you paste the quotes?
PPS: Initially I had a hard time using the red arrow, but I seem to be getting the hang of it |
Edited by - shankar on May 29 2008 8:32:56 PM |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 8:39:56 PM
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Hi Divineis!
quote:
Divineis wrote...I just know I have a certain pull towards some people. Like the dude who owns my local convenience store. I swear, he's been like... my guru for a little without even knowing it. Without even talking about enlightenment or meditation or any of that. I guess I appreciate that sort of trust in the universe, that things usually come to you when you need em, good or bad.
Dude, you reminded me of an anecdote from the life of Sankara. Once, he and his hangers-on were walking along a street, when a beggar and his four dogs blocked their way. His mates told the begger to move aside. To which the latter replied "Do you want me to move my eternal Atman, or this body made of flesh?" Sankara realised immediately that the beggar was Siva and the four mangy mongrels the four Vedas, in civvies
So, if your store guy throws some inspiration along your way when you are there to pick up a quart of milk, no need to be surprised. A guru is anybody who can inspire others to take a second look at their existence. I envy you. My grocery store owner is a multi-millionaire owner of a chain, who couldn't care less...and the stuff is expensive too...
Have a good one |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 04:19:34 AM
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Hello VIL
I awoke early this morning feeling refreshed and quite at ease with myself.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the relationship between the Brahman and the Atman. There is much to internalise in what you write.
I guess what i am reacting to is the use of the term "purification". First on the level of semantics, but even more importantly, questioning its relevance vis-a-vis the Atman. In order to "purify" something, that which we seek to purify must have impurities. That is not the case with the Atman. In my earlier post, I tried to make this distinction between controlling our mind and perceptions, and adopting good practices that would set us on the path to Consciousness; and trying to cleanse the Atman.
quote:
VLL wrote: Just as the light of the sun isn't going to shine as brighty as a dust covered mirror.
quote:
VLL The personal physical, mental, and causal dream worlds all need purification...
Your analogy of the dust-covered mirror is a good example. The mirror here is the Atman. The dust covering it is either lack of awareness or the accumulation of our acts, omissions, indifference and so on. When we meditate, we remove the accumulations of "the personal physical, mental and causal dream worlds" i.e, the dust.
But note carefully, we are only removing the dust, an act akin to brushing it off. We are not in any way, "purifying" the dust. Neither is the mirror behind the dust being "purified". It was always pure, before and after the dust is removed.
Thus, I would rather say that meditation is an act that helps us remove obstacles, or it is a set of good practises that helps us remove tendencies or delusions (dust in this analogy) that prevent us from freely seeing the mirror (Atman).
This is also why I like to emphasise that it is all right, even essential to have faith in the existence of the mirror, even if you just starting out on your task of removing the dust. At first you may not see the mirror, just dust. But the mirror is still there, no matter what your Mind is telling you. Slowly, as you meditate, some of this dust gets removed, but the Mind is not yet willing to give up its attempt at "the tail wagging the dog number". So the moment you have finished dusting and turn your back, the dust of our delusions will start settling on the mirror again. But even if the dust settles again and again, the mirror is always there, it does not lose its purity. Sometimes this leads to compulsive dusting, in the belief that dusting is the be-all and end-all, but this is, of course, foolish. The dust never stops settling and we get trapped in a compulsive dusting fetish.
Your eternal Atman (mirror) is always reflecting the Brahman and it is always pure. How clean or dust-covered it "appears", is up to you
But there will come a time in your development when you will "see through" the dust. It won't impede your vision anymore, and you will see the mirror through the dust. That's Self Awareness. You might still want to meditate, just as we keep dusting our own mirrors at home, not because we are compulsive but because we like to keep tidy. This is what I meant when I wrote "In the meantime, we should adopt some good practices. Of course, it is important to keep up these good practices" (see my earlier posting).
The very doubt " Can I realize" or ""Have I realized?", are obstacles to Realization. Realization is nothing to be gained afresh. The Self is already realized. All that is necessary is to get rid of the thought "I have not realized."
Ramana Maharshi
Namaste and enjoy the dusting, but please don't get compulsive about it
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Edited by - shankar on May 30 2008 05:01:20 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 04:54:19 AM
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Well, thank you for outshining me, shankar. I kind of knew you would.
Namaste:
VIL |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 05:57:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Well, thank you for outshining me, shankar. I kind of knew you would.
Namaste:
VIL
Hi Vil,
This is not a medal-event. Your post inspired and motivated me to introspect. I owe you!
Take care |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 08:06:55 AM
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Shankar wrote: quote:
The very doubt " Can I realize" or ""Have I realized?", are obstacles to Realization. Realization is nothing to be gained afresh. The Self is already realized. All that is necessary is to get rid of the thought "I have not realized."
Ramana Maharshi
While this is an important concept, i have to disagree with his wording. Yes, getting rid of the concept "i have not realized" is important, otherwise it is a block.
While that is all that is necessary to get rid of that one block, assumes that you will believe something just by saying it, which is rarely true. That's why affirmations don't work. Sometimes you can believe an affirmation by saying it with feeling at least three times a day for three months!
But worse, his wording "all that is necessary" makes it look like that would cover everything you need for realization, which is very misleading to a beginner, and likely to lead them astray for a while. Sort of like a homeless man walking around saying "i am rich" all day long. I'm afraid there is more to it than that.
Fortunately the people in this forum know enough to take his words with the first meaning though which is good.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 1:09:34 PM
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Etherfish said:
Sort of like a homeless man walking around saying "i am rich" all day long. I'm afraid there is more to it than that.
Yup. These instructions are really more useful when they are working out more like a rich man walking around saying "I am rich", or even "Hey, I am not poor after all".
All Self-Inquiry work has developmental pre-requisites. If that is forgotten, then the havoc starts. To teach Self-Inquiry or Advaita without understanding that is like telling people they can be a Formula 1 racer by just getting into the right car RIGHT NOW.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 1:14:18 PM
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Hi Shankar
quote:
I have been internalising your post for the last couple of days. Not chewing over it, just letting it condense into dew drops on the flower of my heart. Just content to let it freshen my inner petals up. There was so much "felt" experience in that post that I had to allow it permeate me for a while. So thank you
.....That is beautiful, Shankar.
quote:
was packing my books today because I'm moving house this weekend, and one little paperback, only a few inches x a few inches fell out and insisted on being attended to. I haven't touched this collection of quotes from Ramana Maharshi for a long, long time. But today, it want to be part of the post. I didn't ask for it out loud. It just happened.
Yes....I love the way life speaks to us silently
quote:
"Grace is within you. If it is external, it is useless. Grace is the Self. All that is necessary is to know its operation in you. You are never out of its operation. Grace is ever there."- Ramana Maharshi
I love Ramana Maharshi.....thanks for sharing these quotes!
He is so utterly direct.......he is all gap to me. I really have to self-pace around him. Or else I pass out.
I litterally see the Shine, Shankar. But still....it is not external......it is not outside of something. I can stand in the middle of the street (I mean on the side walk )....cars going by......buildings creating so called walls......the pavement being just as alive as the people rushing by.......everything is seething with this vibrant clarity.....this crystal clear lightheartedness. It is not even correct to say it is within.....it just is. It is what makes all the objects possible....yet the object itself is also it.......I may look at a car, and every inch of the car is awake....it is "looking back at me"......Some of the time it is laughing.....it is such a contagious laugh (and yet......not a sound is heard) .....just writing about it makes me bubble inside
Imagine......all this......and I STILL forget myself ......*laughing*....it is so hilarious!!!!!
quote:
The Mind is telling you that the Shine is gone, or that you have "moved yourself" and therefore it is gone, because it is the nature of the Mind to play with us (see my earlier entry on how the Mind gives us what we want).
See! I did it again.....*laughing so hard i can hardly breathe*....the problem is not that I forget myself......it is that I do not!
But Shankar......if the Mind gives us what we want.....then who are we...? You agree that the mind and the wanting is the same? I could never find this "entity" you see......To me, there is no difference between the mind and myself (the me). But when quiet.....there is never any wanting...... When in union with the shine......nothing is ever the matter.......on the contrary.....it is all love and joy.....all over the place. And there is no bodyreference either....
So.....when the mind is still.....is there such a thing as mind then? Is not a still mind simply an opening......that allows for the direct taste of consciousness? Just like the pupil is simply an opening that allows for the light? And yet - it is not the eye that sees, is it? So it cannot be the mind that tastes consciousness either......But it definitely is tasted.
quote:
Katrine wrote: But the mind makes it it's own need. The mind wants to own the shine.....not knowing that it itself is a product of it. The mind wants this more than its own death (understandable...isn't it?).
Thanks for reminding me ......*laughing*........it is true!
It is a very relaxing quote (almost like putting a needle to a baloon....*laughing*....)......not much to do, is there.....*still laughing*.....
.......a few minutes later........
Oh....you really had me in stitches there, Shankar. Thank you so much!......."still bubbling"......
quote:
I can see you rolling your eyes, "There he goes again, spouting spricture". I agree with you, no theory nourishes.
*......*........*.......*.......yessir......*
quote:
The mind is nothing but the stream of thoughts that passes through Consciousness. So yes, they are simultaneous, but they are not the same. The Mind need not be aware of the Consciousness
Yes....you say it! The mind is the stream of thoughts....
Do you think it is possible that the mind cannot be aware of consciousness?
That it is only light that can understand itself? The most the mind can do is to stop the willfull activity.....like the pupil stopping the contraction.....relaxing.....so that the light can shine through? Of course....in order to relax...it cannot be too bright....
Oh.....no....I see.....they are appearantly not the same, the mind and the consciousness......and yet they are. Just as I see the shine in the pebble......the consciousness is not different from the stream of thoughts. This is just it.....the consciousness is. It is not the thought in itself that is the illusion......it only is illusory when mind insists that it is "stripped" of consciousness....that it exists in and of itself!.......*laughing*......It is so simple! And we complicate it so.....*laughing*....
It is consciousness that is illuminitating everything......and yet....no thing exists prior to.....and separate from it. The illusion and the illumination is as such the same life....simulatanious life on every level.
And yet....the Absolute....is beyond even consciousness.....not knowable as a concept....but still our nature......and the source of the illumination that makes the illusion what it is....
No wonder I feel like bowing to every pebble.......when I see.....
There is such sacredness absolutely everywhere....
quote:
Ramana Maharshi again: "Meditation requires an object to meditate upon, whereas in vichara or introspection, there is only the subject without the object. Meditation differs from introspection in this way".
You know......introspection/vichara/self-inquiry is my favorite practise. It is not even a practise......it is a way of life. The feeling of self........and the feeling of existence. I remember doing it when I was very, very small.....always inquiring inside......always looking to see....
But it wasn't until I begun meditating at the age of about 24 that I started to discover the space inside.......and I always used a mantra.....(First from TM, then from an Indian guru that a homeopath collegue used to visit in India).
The funny thing is that I discovered the space outside of meditation time - not during it. It is still like that. I meditate....and ......*pling*.......the understanding come during normal activity. It is the relaxation of seeing....as opposed to the effort of looking.....
So gradually the feeling of self.....the feeling of existence changes into the understanding of self......the understanding of existence.
And I understand so little.....yet it gives me such immense joy!
And it is not a kind of understanding that I can transmit in words......it is just a precious inner teaching. That is why I love to be with those who also treasure silence the most.....like all the wonderful people in here!
Luckily - I also love talking (as you can see!!......*laughing*...)
No logic to it......just a mystery.....but it seems that meditation (especially as in deep meditation ....i am....) - for me - is a fertilizer.
And understanding is what blooms.......
Shankar.......I am so glad I met you
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 4:26:09 PM
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Hi Etherfish!
Welcome and good to "meet you".
quote:
Etherfish wrote:While that is all that is necessary to get rid of that one block, assumes that you will believe something just by saying it, which is rarely true.
I am afraid I am not privy to every utterance ever made by Ramana Maharshi and I would definitely not take it upon myself to speak on his behalf
But I read the statement of his you are commenting upon very differently. He does say that it is necessary to remove self-doubt, but nowhere is it mentioned that merely making affirmations removes such doubts.
In fact, Ramana Maharshi has spoken extensively of the way in which we successively ascend higher up the scale.
Namaste |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 6:50:50 PM
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Hi Katrine
quote:
Katrine wrote: Oh....you really had me in stitches there, Shankar. Thank you so much!......."still bubbling"......
Right now, I'm just basking in your laughter. It's really the purest of emotions. It's one of the first ones we learn to express where we drop our inhibitions. So, this time, I'm just going to join in
And thank you!
Shankar
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 9:06:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by shankar
Hi Etherfish!
Welcome and good to "meet you".
quote:
Etherfish wrote:While that is all that is necessary to get rid of that one block, assumes that you will believe something just by saying it, which is rarely true.
I am afraid I am not privy to every utterance ever made by Ramana Maharshi and I would definitely not take it upon myself to speak on his behalf
But I read the statement of his you are commenting upon very differently. He does say that it is necessary to remove self-doubt, but nowhere is it mentioned that merely making affirmations removes such doubts.
In fact, Ramana Maharshi has spoken extensively of the way in which we successively ascend higher up the scale.
Namaste
hi Shankar, good to meet you too.
Yes I suspect that Maharshi understands much more than this quote.
However, i feel it is dangerous to say things like "all that is necessary is to remove the thought".
I have a couple reasons for this:
I have been studying on how to change beliefs in our subconscious mind. Two of the most important principles I have learned are:
1) The subconscious is very limited in understanding, and it doesn't understand negatives. If you tell it to "remove the thought", it actually reinforces that thought. it's the same principle as saying "don't think of the color blue". The only way to remove a thought is to replace it with something else that is positive.
It is possible to replace "I have not realized" with the belief "I HAVE realized", but not by removing the negative thought.
2) The subconscious mind (which holds all our beliefs) usually has a lot of beliefs interwoven together. Once you are able to change one belief (to get rid of the negative), you will find that there are a number of other beliefs that need to be changed also to complete the job.
In other words, someone who believes "I have not realized",
most likely also believes "My life is not perfect", and "I am not complete", and "Someday I will be happier", and "I need to gather more information to complete my goal", and a hundred other similar beliefs.
So if he succeeds in changing the belief "I am not realized", it does not change the other supporting beliefs. Therefore, my proposal follows that "all that is necessary" is an oversimplified and misleading concept. You may not think this way, but I assure you many people do including me.
Finding inner silence is a much more comprehensive goal, because it doesn't encompass trying to change thoughts, as Maharshi suggests.
Of course, someone who has a lot of inner silence could find a lot of truth in Maharshi's quotes. But also that person could find a lot of truth in everything!
---------------------------------
Katrine wrote:
quote:
the pavement being just as alive as the people rushing by.......everything is seething with this vibrant clarity.....this crystal clear lightheartedness. It is not even correct to say it is within.....it just is. It is what makes all the objects possible....yet the object itself is also it.......I may look at a car, and every inch of the car is awake....it is "looking back at me"......Some of the time it is laughing.....it is such a contagious laugh (and yet......not a sound is heard) .....just writing about it makes me bubble inside
Wow, Katrine,
this is very helpful for me.
i have been fighting those feeling for years, thinking i was a little crazy, and making up excuses for why I thought everything was watching me, and sometimes laughing at me. I guess I don't need to do that anymore! i can just accept it as normal.
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2008 : 06:50:37 AM
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Dear Etherfish!
Your reflections are very heartening. At least for me, because it tells me you are thinking through the issues. It makes me feel light-hearted to be able to open up in satsang with a fellow traveller.
I want us to leave Maharshi's side now, we should not get too hung up in an individual quote, and besides, we are now face to face
quote:
Etherfish wrote: The subconscious mind (which holds all our beliefs) usually has a lot of beliefs interwoven together. Once you are able to change one belief (to get rid of the negative), you will find that there are a number of other beliefs that need to be changed also to complete the job.
I am totally with you on this. In fact, please see my entry to VIL on the 30th a bit higher up in which I use the analogy of the mirror and the dust. Removing a single doubt or negative thought is certainly not enough to reach inner silence. Because, as you say, these are interconnected to further doubts. But essentially, we are talking about reaching a state where we affirm our Self Awareness, not about how many steps we take to reach that state or about how many doubts that need to be cleared. This varies from person to person. In addition, even if we reach a state of Self Awareness, we do from time to time, again slip into doubts and have to retrace our steps, reclimb the same incline in order to reach those very same heights that we had previously attained.
In some of my previous entries I have tried to focus on how it is still essential to not lose sight of the Truth, even though we temporarily lose sight of it. It is a bit like when you are out on a hike, go around a bend and lose sight of a peak. It is still there, even though you cannot see it.
Another point I have stressed is that it is important to differentiate between our actions and our Self Awareness. Actions by themselves are not the goal. They are means to the goal. Meditation is a tool that we use to help us reset our thoughts and preconceptions. But that in itself cannot be the goal. The goal is the peak itself.
Have a good day
Namaste |
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shankar
Norway
35 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2008 : 09:09:06 AM
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My thanks to all those who have stopped by.
It's nearly been a week since I first appeared here, and not counting the day the site was down for maintenance, the thread has been up for six days. In this time, over 800 "hits" have been received.
Less than half a dozen of you have posted replies. The vast, vast majority have visited, perhaps read some or all of the posts; some have possibly taken a cursory glance and rapidly retreated, to rejoin their journey in other parts of the Forum.
I have engaged in satsang with those who have left their footprints on the sand, as best as I could.
But today, I want to say a big "thank you" to all of you out there who came in and left without leaving any footprints. You are like the ocean with its eternal waves that wash in and out of the sand. Endlessly. And every time you do so, you change the sand. It is not immediately visible to passersby or those on the beach, but the waves are nevertheless doing their work.
So to all of you: I hear you. And I feel blessed by your presence. I am aware of it, and I know that I am being formed by you too. You who wash over me everyday but don't leave a mark that is immediately visible |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2008 : 6:12:35 PM
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Shankar,
Yes, I agree with your post above.
There are a number of ways for us to move along the path.
Yogani's methods are particularly effective, and don't require trying to change thoughts.
Personally I use other methods to change my subconscious beliefs also, which speeds me along with the AYP methods. As I change beliefs that conflict with each other it leaves me feeling less attached, and meditation works better. But each person finds their own way through their inner guru.
As the spiritual energy increases, many more methods will be found by each person, each of them effective.
I am fortunate that I have a life completely separate from spirituality where people don't talk about it,
and it is just as compelling as my spiritual life. Ironically this helps me spiritually, to step back, and forget, and return to it later.
I seem to move along without frustrating plateaus because of this.
Godspeed. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2008 : 03:25:04 AM
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Hello everyone what great delights to have for breakfast, i just wanted to drop by and tell everyone thk you for the great thoughts and breakthroughs :)
and if i had to add anything to this post other than the thk yous, well i would like to say that everything is meditating when people read words like ade shankara or maharshi they are meditating on the meaning of these words and from there comes realization from meditating on the meaning and relating to it.
which means there is a purification of thought structure happening here :)
and the same way when we practice meditations like the ones here in ayp there is that self realization happening but in a more ecstatic way the person gets to experience more fun on the way and you should give it a try shankar you have nothing to lose.
and to tell you the truth about the truth :) it's just emptiness only vast emptyness with euphoria.
now i wouldn't rely on my own experiences so that i wouldn't go into muddy waters.
but i've spoke with suffis jnanis yogis all the works and all of them realized the same thing emptyness with a state of ecstacy.
but when they come back to the normal state there is that smthg that i'm sure some of you here experienced that sound which gives you advice and sometimes tells you sometimes i am god when you are meditating (hope this didn't seem crazy heheheh)
so to say which is best which is not, it doesn't matter they all work to each his path.
and speaking for myself i've been through most of the methodologies that has been undertaken toward reaching enlightenment and found that yogic practice is great as a stand alone practice as well as jnana as well as praying or al zeker that's for suffis.
but out of my experience i found it best if one practices all that stuff together in a methodology that suits him where he takes which he finds most effective and puts it in his system of practice.
and dear shankar it's me Ananda from facebook, i must say these are some great posts you are sharing with us and i see the teachings of sages like sri atmananda krishna menon in them.
and again i thk all of you guys for these great posts and for just being who you are :)
just relax now and be it's just that easy and thinking and practice makes it so.
Namaste
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Bhakti, Jnana, Karma, Meditation - Crutches all?
