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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 26 2020 : 07:50:53 AM
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Again, passing judgements (cultivating attachment) is not the point. If a vegetarian diet is not different for you than a diet that includes meat, or if eating meat is more helpful to deal with increased energy, then choose what works for you at this stage (skillful practice). The yoga principles are enlivened by practice and they transform along the path.  |
Edited by - Blanche on Dec 26 2020 07:53:13 AM |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2020 : 08:33:43 AM
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Yes, no need to judge, this will not do any good to anyone.
It's our own path to find out what is our dharma and what this means regarding what we do in relation to ourselves and our environment and both aspects are one and the same.
Neither is the goal to inwardly be blissful while outwardly do harm and misery, nor is it to play the preaching messiah with attachment and inner misery.
By surrendering to our dharma we find divine bliss in ourselves and it will pour out through us to all. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2020 : 09:13:43 AM
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| lightandlove your are truly a beautiful human being may your path guide you to all the best choices ,when you stop inquiring or changing stagnation sets in ,i think it was a true master that said we are like coral when it stops growing its dead ,there are many platitudes and quotes from every possible source the bible the gita ,the news papers ,depending on your take of 'thou shall not kill' ,in the end i suppose its down to us given all the information and evidence we decide ,rainforest or beef ,clean air or more carbon based transport ,and so on, its disappointing that so many of us humans continue to live in complete denial about how are habits are destroying the world around us ,but its because we can, at the moment for many its power without responsibility but as the proverbs states 'when the rain falls it wont fall on one mans house' but then again its a platitude well used and could mean anything ,global crises we face for many reasons not just the meat issue ,its always all about us where we are going what feels good for us at any given moment ,the truth is ironic and understanding irony is anther level of human understanding . |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2020 : 06:14:03 AM
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Thank you for sharing kumar ul islam  |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 08:28:48 AM
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Hi,
I would like to make one more point, and I understand that many will not agree with it. Please take it as "food for thoughts."
Ahimsa (non-violence) is the first principle in yama, literally opening the practice of yoga. There are many aspects of non-violence, and not harming animals is one of them. We do have a choice, assuming that we have access to veggies and fruit. At the beginning of this thread one of the arguments made was that veggies suffer just as much as animals. Clearly there is a big difference between eating a tomato and eating cow meat. The tomato evolved to be eaten and spread its seeds. Have you seen a cow and her calf? Have you seen its level of awareness? It is hard to justify our habit of eating meat.
It may be challenging to give up our habits, but there is always a choice. Maybe we decide to eat vegetarian for one day a week. Maybe we offer to cook a vegetarian meal for our family once a week. Each path starts with a step.
It is not random that yoga starts with ethical principles. Without ethics, we do not stand a chance. Is eating meat acceptable? Can we make real progress while we still eat meat? Yes, if we do not have a choice, but it will be harder. We always have more freedom than we think.
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 10:55:27 AM
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Hello Friends,
Great discussion.
Like with all things,this choice seems to depend on circumstance: whether one is born in privilege/privileged part of the world where you have choices versus in the remote areas of the world where eating Yak meat is the way one is going to survive in the frigid temperatures.
Of course, I'm typing in an internet forum so we can count ourselves as privileged. The lessons are here to guide us. But to move from other forms of dogmatism to spiritual dogmatism is probably another pitfall of being identified as a "spiritual practitioner".
Perhaps, the invitation with spiritual practices is how much can we " Love" and Be "Love" while honoring everyone's choices and evolution. As Yogani says "The Guru is in You".
Much Love,
Sunyata
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Edited by - sunyata on Dec 28 2020 11:02:31 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 11:16:26 AM
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Just be merry and do whatever you want, no one cares.And maybe if you get the understanding there will be no need for that thread.
A little quote:
Knowing when the dualism of things done and undone has been put to rest, or the person for whom they occur has,then you can here and now go beyond renunciation and obligations by indifference to such things
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Ashtavakra Gita 9~1 |
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 12:02:00 PM
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Maheswari, Being a dualist(i.e. having not yet achieved a nondual awareness) your response registers with me as flipant. I have struggled with the idea nonduality and in my present state of awareness it feels like one can't carry on in the practical real world living from a nondualistic perspective. A friend of mine, who embraces this nondualistic perspective was trying to convince me a couple years ago there are no actors just actions. After buying my son a treat he inadvertently started to choke on it. As I performed the Heimlich manuever I was very aware of his physical reality. If I just stood there watching he may have died. Maheswari, I suspect your message is being more playful and I'm taking it too literally but I felt compelled to respond as the written word can easily be misunderstood.
Blanche, What you say resonates with me. Although I did bring up the concept of panpsychism, it was more to consider the range of consciousness that seems to exist in the world. I do not agree with the idea that plants suffer as much as animals. There does seem to be a consciousness heirachy. Sunyata's point about privelege is very relevant. In the absence of a world in which one can select an impossible burger, a garden burger, a tofu burger etc. some people do not have the luxury to ponder these issues and are forced to eat meat to survive. On my personal journey I have yet been able to completely commit to a vegetarian diet but I did give up eating all mammals and am working in the direction of least harm.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 1:36:32 PM
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quote:
I have struggled with the idea nonduality and in my present state of awareness it feels like one can't carry on in the practical real world living from a nondualistic perspective. A friend of mine, who embraces this nondualistic perspective was trying to convince me a couple years ago there are no actors just actions. After buying my son a treat he inadvertently started to choke on it. As I performed the Heimlich manuever I was very aware of his physical reality. If I just stood there watching he may have died.
Hi Interpaul,
Non-duality is not a state of indifference, where we would stand by and watch someone experience pain and die, believing that there is no one who is experiencing pain or dying. Non-duality means literally, "not two", no separation. So, when you see someone in pain and dying, you would know that it is you who is in pain and dying. So, you would act to help them, not in order to help someone else, out of kindness, but because they are you. This is the condition of Divine love and the true meaning of non-duality. It is the condition of profound connectedness that is love.
See lesson 327:
Lesson 327 - The Evolutionary Stages of Mind
"Is dispassion a state of indifference, a state of uncaring? Does it mean we do not act or react in the world? It does not mean that. It is just the opposite - the rise of dispassion corresponds with the rise of compassion. Much of spiritual development is paradoxical like that, with less becoming much more.
The gradual emergence of dispassion means we are becoming more free to act for the good of all. Inner silence will move to do this through us more and more, the further we travel along the path. It is the paradox of enlightenment. The more we have gone beyond, the more engaged we will become for the benefit of others. This is the nature of divine consciousness." [Yogani]
And from the same lesson:
"It is an unending outpouring of divine love, whose fundamental nature and ultimate fruition is life everywhere residing in the Oneness of unity. It has always been That and will always be That." [Yogani]
And this from lesson 330:
Lesson 330 - Self-Inquiry and the Limbs of Yoga
"It takes a flexible integration of methods to penetrate the veil of ideas, emotions and perceived materiality in front of us, to permanently realize the eternal luminous reality underlying it all, which is our true Self....
We are That which is beyond the mind and all the identified (enmeshed) perceptions of our awareness. When we are able to let go into our abiding inner silence, we will know what it is. Our awareness is That." [Yogani]
Non-duality is not something that can be understood from the perspective of duality. It is only something that can be experienced directly through practice. This is one of the reasons that many teachers will not talk about non-duality, because developing ideas about non-duality can be counterproductive. But if we are releasing into stillness, then we are moving in that direction, so meditation, samyama, self-inquiry and the other limbs of yoga will take us there.
Christi |
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 4:16:42 PM
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| Christi, Thank you for your response. I just started my journey into self inquiry. I am on lesson 322 right now! I have held off on explorations into self inquire and non duality as it has been made clear in the teachings one needs to experience inner silence to start down the path of relational inquiry. Since I am experiecing a new deepness/stillness in my DM and in moments of quiet during the day, I believe these ideas may transition from ideas to experiences. Thank you for your ongoing support and all that you do to keep this community vibrant. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2020 : 5:20:16 PM
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I think
Therefore
I
The sharper I am the deeper i go
The darkness of habit the lightness of being
Desires set in one at a Time
Decieving the eternal revealing the parts but not the whole
When you can choose the feeling your there,
somewhere
Not in the rush but just on the verge pre empting the outcome from beginning to end
Seeing the thought behind the thoughts
Transcending the slow feeling the fast
It all comes back to me now, you know, the enjoyer who needs a little tempting now and then
As little as we know the taste leads to appetite the windows of the temple to small for all the light
A weary body a tiresome soul the experience devoured then seldom ate again, the budds present holding onto the previous tastes in the mirror of reflection
Samskaras indentured held without doubt by someone something I once knew somewhere sometime need more be said
As for the words they are just passing terms platitudes plenitudes how similar thay seem to be
Like bubbles in a stream, dew on the grass a bolt from the blue a famous friend once said
Writing because I can needing the ear of others when whispered in words maybe lost in translation
Conveyed from a place a time that was a passing muse a highlight a state the maya with all the yogas |
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 12:16:29 AM
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| Kumar ul islam, Another beautiful and deeply evocative poem. Your words speak to my soul and challenge my thinking mind in a delightful way. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 02:40:50 AM
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Hello Interpaul and all
I don't know if your friend duality is rooted in silence or not.Practicality is the aim of non dualism meaning action without chaotic mind narrative.This means you help your child, your elderly parent, go to work etc...
I prefer not to use cliché answers but here we go.Hitler was a vegetarian and all the dalai lamas are meat eaters.The current one lives I India, plenty of veggies there but still he eats meat
Ayp says and that was my experience that our diet fluctuates from light vegetarian one to a more heavy one according to kundalini.Ayp is very practical and there is no talk about who has consciousness more or less, a tomato or a cow, so we can eat it.
Byron Katie, a practical enquiry teacher divides issues in 3 things: my business, your business and God's business
.If I want to tell people what to eat I would be clearly in their business.Reality is what it is, denying it is a sure recipe to make yourself miserable. So spare yourself that, mind your own business and be merry.There is no mission to save others or the world.Just save yourself and that is consistent with Ramana Maharishi teachings.
History is full of good vegetarian people but very few of them are enlightened.
Going beyond rigidity of classical spiritual ideas and leave room to new possibilities.
Adyashanti ( another advaita meat eater haha) says
"Spiritual people can be some of the most violent people.Mostly they are violent to themselves.Why is that so few people are free?Because they try to confirm to ideas concepts and beliefs in their heads.But freedom is about the natural state, the spontaneous expression of being"
So do whatever you want , eat meat or not, but know that liberation is not about that. |
Edited by - maheswari on Dec 29 2020 02:45:02 AM |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 07:27:39 AM
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Again, choosing a diet is not about making judgements about others. There is a difference between cultivating attachment through judgement of others and practicing discrimination on the path. Choosing to move in the direction of a lighter and more nutritious diet is supporting the practice. Choosing to practice ahimsa (non-violence) to our ability is supporting the practice. To practice ahimsa means to act with less violence toward others, including animals, and less violence toward ourselves. There is little use to be vegetarian if we hurt consciously others and ourselves. We may have to eat meat if we live in a place where veggies and fruit are not easily available, if our body is depleted and needs more sustenance, if we have considerable kundalini symptoms (even though yoga texts disagree on this point).
Ahimsa is a evolving practice. Interpaul summarizes this attitude concisely:
quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
am working in the direction of least harm.
Maybe a perfect being can eat meat and drink heavy alcohol without experiencing any effect, but I need all the help I can get and it makes a big difference here if I keep these things out of my diet. There are many people who read the posts in this forum and it is our responsibility to offer clear guidance. Deep gratitude to all who practice |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 3:28:31 PM
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| Are we still not all slaves and not free beings when we reward ourselves with the virtue of enlightenment? |
Edited by - kumar ul islam on Dec 29 2020 3:37:34 PM |
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 6:05:52 PM
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Maheswari, Thank you for your follow up to my comments. I appreciate your perspective more clearly now. When you say "Byron Katie, a practical enquiry teacher divides issues in 3 things: my business, your business and God's business" I think that is helpful. We each need to deal with our own business. Having said that I also feel Blanche is pointing out a broader perspective in mentioning Ahimsa. I personally feel it is good to have some guidelines to focus one's actions in life. I'm not a big believer in dogma and certainly do not feel we should get into other people's business, but I see nothing wrong with sharing one's vision of how one can live a meaningful and fulfilling life in service to others, especially on this type of forum.
Kumar ul islam, A very brief but powerful question. Are you referring here to virtue signaling or our attachment to the concept of enlightenment? Either way it is true escaping the dualistic world is a tough one for us mortals. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2020 : 11:28:31 PM
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I still want to speak on behalf of the vegetable...  And not only because I am a meat eater. Yes, there appears to be a hierarchy of Consciousness and I would place plants at the very top. Way, way above humans. My argument: They make use of the very basic elements - sunlight, water, nutrients from the soil - you cannot be more non-violent than that. They do not argue with reality and do not judge. A mango tree will yield its mangoes to the good, the bad and the ugly. It does not care. It is there to give joy and of course ensure its propagation. However, cut down that mango tree and you would have to be deaf not to hear the its wailing of pain. It's a horrible sound. So does the lettuce - more subtly.
A cow produces more milk than its calf needs and it too yields that milk happily to all and it too is very distressed when killed.
All forms of life cling to life. It is our nature to do so.
Sey
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 03:13:45 AM
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The whole Bhagavad-Gita Gita was about dropping the notions of good and bad which will open the door to dropping I , Me and Mine.Arjuna did not hurt anyone yet he did his duty as a warrior.He did not sit and do nothing.
If some meat and alcohol still makes us feel confused then the issue is that we still believe thoughts emotions and that we are an individual.That is the issue that needs to be addressed and that will happen only if we go through a direct approach of knowing ourselves which is only possible if we have solid unshakable silence.
But usually seekers instead of working on themselves in a way that cut their ignorance fully ( seekers work partially ex: if today i eat clean then i might think straight,if I do all my sitting practices then i might feel good...superficial work that is blown up whenever life tests you) give themselves the permission to tell others what to eat or to find them excuses.And seekers want to save the world.
Back to Byron Katie, telling others is stepping into their business and saving the world is stepping into God business.Whereas you are still way behind in your own business.
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Edited by - maheswari on Dec 30 2020 03:45:11 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 04:23:46 AM
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| Are we still not slaves and not free beings when we reward ourselves with the virtue of unshakeable silence? |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 04:54:03 AM
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| The gita is many things with a multitude of questions as well as answers, it does not tell us to drop right or wrong or good or evil but to show us they exist and that the free choice we have through this knowledge gives us choice, when arjuna is shown in cosmic form krishna he then sees the whole from great creation to destruction all played out by a fragment of krishnas power or business this is momentary for arjuna and wishes to return to the friend of before, arjuna is shown that whatever he sacrifices for the greater good is the path of dharma in his time and place and that indeed krishna business is his own but we also yeald a power in part due to him and have a responsibility not just for our own enlightenenment but for the rest of future humanity, this of course has many precepts the rule of law ect but we live within these boundaries and make choices within them just like arjuna did on his own battlefield, our battlefield is the planet with all its diversity and beauty and stark decisions need to made or will be made for us it's rather ironic that we make the temple of silence or enlightenment our place of refuge when we are supported by a planet that gives us room for this fluctuating experience we sweep inside next to the altar and maintain the grounds while outside its walls its attachments the earth burns. |
Edited by - kumar ul islam on Dec 30 2020 06:17:38 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 10:22:17 AM
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That will be my last post in that thread.
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At Kumar: i am sorry to say you did not get my point about the Gita.
In fact all the replies from everyone have been repetitions without providing any solid base coming from the practical diet advices in ayp lessons .Also none was interested to acknowledge the quotes from Ashtavakra or the enquiry and advaita teachers mentioned above. The new posts were only répétitions and that is okay
Arjuna was identified as Arjuna that is why he did not want to kill his relatives.Only when Krishna explained to him the relativity of good and bad , and that Arjuna is not doing the killing although he is killing, only then Arjuna was able to do his dharma as warrior.Only then he dropped the duality that was making him sit and do nothing and judge good and bad.Only then he stepped out from his I stories.
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Preaching about vegetarianism implies a persona that has many beliefs, a duality that involves a person who judges an act to be good or bad.It is not good nor bad.It is what it is and others and the world will never be the way a vegetarian would like them to be.
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Now if you don't mind i have a burger to eat and a cigarette  to share with Nisargadata, another meat eater teacher and chain smoker.Oh and maybe i will offer some meat to Mother Kali , cause that is Her prasad in Bangalore, a place full of veggies but yet She and her devotees are not much interested about them.
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Edited by - maheswari on Dec 30 2020 10:33:44 AM |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 11:51:57 AM
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Hello Friends,
Great and Interesting points.
I’m a vegetarian and don’t drink because it has been the natural evolution of this body mind. However, I cook meat for my family and friends. In doing so it feels like it is my swadharma.
It's funny because a question that I often get asked by friends and family is when I start meditating do I need to stop eating meat and drinking? I always say of course not.Don't think you're doing anything special when you're meditating. Think of it as you're brushing your mind. And who knows, may be down the road you may be inclined to quit. It's not mandatory or a requirement.
When people ask me why I don’t eat meat and drink. I respond to their inquiry. Other than that, I don’t harp on vegetarianism, veganism so on and so forth. Of course, if a family member or a friend shows natural inclination to stop eating meat then I happily encourage them.
Preaching and forcing diet or anything for that matter is not sustainable in the long run. I am reminded of the caste system in the East. A certain caste that does not eat meat, some will not even eat vegetables cooked in the same pan as meat was cooked, can chant the Vedas verbatim but won't allow people from certain caste to enter in their home because they are lower caste. Or, the notion women cannot get enlightened in certain spiritual lineages.Have humans need to control and authority creeped into spirituality?
In AYP, there are no shoulds and musts in the lessons. There is only gentle pointing with the approach of do your practices and things will fall away on its own or it will not. Instead of the rigidity of what a perfect yogic diet should look like. Openness, tolerance, inclusiveness, acceptance is the flavor of Enlightenment I seem to gravitate towards. I think I’ve talked enough about myself.
Much Love,
Sunyata
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Edited by - sunyata on Dec 30 2020 3:32:31 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 12:01:18 PM
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quote:
I personally feel it is good to have some guidelines to focus one's actions in life. I'm not a big believer in dogma and certainly do not feel we should get into other people's business, but I see nothing wrong with sharing one's vision of how one can live a meaningful and fulfilling life in service to others, especially on this type of forum.
Hi Interpaul and all,
As you are probably aware, AYP does not begin with ethical guidelines. And in fact, ethical guidelines do not come in at any stage from a proscriptive standpoint. How we decide to enact our conduct in the world is something that is left to evolve naturally from within, as we develop on the path. And it can be different for everyone. This is done quite deliberately, to avoid some of the pitfalls that can come from having a proscriptive set of ethics.
One of the obvious dangers of proscriptive ethical standards, is that people can become attached to them, for their own sake, which can then become a fixed point of view. Another danger, which is almost the opposite, is that people may fail to follow them, and then end up feeling guilty for not living up to the standards that are laid down. But when things arise from within, especially as a result of the cultivation of inner silence and of love, then there is less chance that they will become an attachment within the mind (fixed point of view), or that guilt will arise. When our conduct changes naturally, as a result of the process of inner spiritual transformation, then it quickly becomes our new normal way of being and we will think little of it.
See here from lesson 228:
"Going inward first is the approach to yama and niyama (codes of conduct) in the lessons - purify and open first, and then let's go share our bubbling bliss with the world. That kind of service never burns out. Enforced service behavior does burn out, because it has a limited spiritual foundation underneath." [Yogani]
See also here from lesson 149:
"Traditionally, the eight limbs have been taken in sequence. The rationale has been that people have to learn to behave themselves and prepare through strict codes of conduct and self-discipline before they can begin doing more direct spiritual practices. Once they know how to behave rightly, they can begin with the body (asanas), and, later, work their way in through the breath (pranayama), and, finally, be ready for concentration (dharana), meditation (dhyana) and pure bliss consciousness (samadhi). With a traditional approach like this it can be a long road to hoe, especially if a guru (in the flesh) holds his disciples to the highest standards of performance each step along the way. Even Patanjali had this sequence of practice in mind when he wrote the Yoga Sutras.
That part of it (going through the eight limbs in sequence over a long period of time) doesn't work very well. This has become widely recognized in the yoga community, and Patanjali must have known it too. Maybe in his time it wasn't so easy to be jump-starting people with advanced yoga practices like deep meditation and spinal breathing the way we can do it today." [Yogani]
AYP is neither pro-vegetarian, or pro-meat eating. It is left up to each practitioner. The same goes for eating fish, or eggs, or smoking, or drinking alcohol. Our approach to these things changes over time, with a tendency towards a lighter and more nutritious diet.
See here from lesson 305:
Lesson 305 - Must We Become Vegetarians?
"Is it necessary to become a strict vegetarian to achieve good health, and be suitably prepared for yoga practices such as deep meditation? No, it isn't. All of the suggestions given above can be acted upon within a diet regimen that includes meat and dairy products. It is only a matter of eating in moderation, and favoring the basic guidelines as best we can without throwing our personal preferences out the window. There is no black or white in this. While it seems to be human nature to believe it is so, few things in life are all or nothing. So, good health can certainly be maintained by eating a wide range of foods in moderation. For those who have an aversion to fresh fruits and vegetables, try compromising and eating some of these - only a little bit on a regular basis. It won't kill you. If you are a heavy meat eater, favor eating less meat, and see how much better you feel. It can be as simple as favoring lighter meats (like fish or fowl) over heavier meats. These tendencies will come up by themselves if you are practicing deep meditation. It happens like that. Nothing is all or nothing. We just favor what we know will be good for our health and well being. It is logical, yes?" [Yogani]
So, the advice is to practice, and go out and live your life fully, and see what arises from within.
Christi |
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Dogboy
USA
2294 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2020 : 6:38:39 PM
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quote:
So, the advice is to practice, and go out and live your life fully, and see what arises from within.
Count me in! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 12:00:52 AM
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This forum thread sounds exactly like my family - everyone talking, no-one listening. I love it. 
Sey |
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Alcohol, Meat and the New Age
