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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 15 2020 : 4:43:55 PM
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Hi everyone :)
I want to start a discussion on a very specific topic.
From my experience, talking to many different people who would call themselves to "be on the jouney", I hear very different statements if alcohol and meat are good and OK on the spiritual path or not.
I know that in the AYP lessons the clear message is that this is something you don't have to care about and everything will come by itself when doing twice daily sitting practices. But it seems to me that there are still quite a lot "heavily meditated" people out there who would say that they still enjoy alcohol and meat.
Therefore I want to start the following discussion:
In our modern world and society...
...where we all know that meat production is mainly a horrible industry
...and we all know that alcohol is by far the worst drug one can use, not only for oneself, but especially for our social environment
...and we have strong rational evidence for that
...can someone engaging in spiritual practice, aiming to cultivate love and enlightenment, really ignore this and argue for its use?
I often hear from spiritual practitioners that they are "free" to do what they enjoy to do and that any kind of restraint in their live would be a constraint.
Isn't this a very egoistic statement?
For a liberated being, what would be the purpose of eating meat and drinking alcohol?
Happy to hear your thoughts on this :)
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zamolxes
Romania
93 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2020 : 5:24:00 PM
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Well hello :),
First, from my experience, meat is neither good nor bad, it depends or what do we need at certain times, it depends on our environment and activities too. But I wouldn't say we should all be vegans, not until a certain age and when our biology is ready for a light nutrition without straining.
Of course what is evil is the disregard towards nature and life in general economy has. It focuses on numbers, they want to produce as much as they can as fast as they can, so they torture and treat animals as products.
So in an ideal world, ahem, economy would work hand in hand with consciousness. And so, the production of meat would be lower, which wouldn't be a bad thing for us. And animals could grow naturally in a friendly enviroment. With happy animals we would have healthier food, another plus for our well being. So eating meat is not wrong, what is wrong well, is ignorance.
As for alcohol, I used to think that an ocasional beer once a week would do no harm, but as time passed on I found my inner silence affected even after two or three sips, so I left it out for good. For a true spiritual aspirant, nothing that gets in the way of their progress needs to be in their body.
That's why Yogani put it that way, is because you will actualy get to perceive every change in your body, mind and energies after whatever you consume. Then you will certainly know what is good amd what isn't.
As for who is free and who isn't? Many proclaim themselves as free, they are free to do as they like. But what about what they like and dislikes? Isn't that writing their life? In search for freedom they become their own slaves. So yeah, perhaps not egoistic, but surely unaware.
As for my advice, do as you feel. With time all will seem to change and transform so don't consume your emotions worrying. In the face of inner silence, there's no wrong or right. Between the yes and the no, Truth likes to dance.
Happy to tell my thoughts too :) |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 01:20:02 AM
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What I could never understand is why some people feel it is ok to eat vegetables but not ok to eat meat. Especially when they come from the perspective that eating animals is cruel but eating vegetables is not?? Why do they feel plants don’t matter?
Now coming from the perspective of vegetables being lighter and more nutritious, I am ok with... if the latter is indeed the case.
From the perspective of someone who meditates and can feel /see what kind of food does what to their energetic system, I find a good balance between the two is best. The point, however, is not about how animals are reared or vegetables planted (that is indeed a concern and a different topic of conversation) but how much do you let what you are eating worry you. I have a horror of people who micro-manage what they eat, all in the spirit of being “spiritual”.
Balance. balance. Balance.
Sey  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 02:08:03 AM
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| Well said Sey |
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k.cherry
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 1:22:41 PM
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More often than not, I have found the concept of "purity" to be a roadblock to understanding rather than a means of attaining enlightenment. I have met people who, wanting to be as spiritual as possible, focus on ridding themselves of all sorts of behaviors they deem impure. Somehow in the process, they also threw out their humanity and became exceptionally boring, dogmatic people. Their strict pursuit seems to have brought them farther from the truth and out of the land of the compassionate heart. How is this helpful? I personally think that "purity" is more genuinely revealed as a byproduct of deep embrace of reality rather than something achievable by being aimed at directly. I trust the earnest-hearted one who embraces vice before an ego seeking to rid themselves of spirit.
Besides, I think what we deem impure is more a reflection of what we're focusing on internally, and as such is a revelation of our own egos. You say meat and alcohol, but I could say fossil fuels and refined sugar. What's the difference? All is Self. Value judgements only exist in the mind.
-KC |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 2:44:48 PM
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Thanks a lot for your input. I very much agree with your points of view.
Still, what seems interesting to me and where I feel the discussion didn't lead to yet, is the role the above mentioned (and thanks to k.cherry for adding fossil fuels and refined sugar - this and much more is the very same topic) regarding the life outside our own spiritual progress.
While we seem to very much agree that neither one nor the other is good or bad per se, what about their role regarding us in relation to our society?
The Yamas and Niyamas aren't taken as a practice on itself in the AYP lessons, but rather as something that naturally occurs when getting closer to samadhi.
So if we as spiritual practitioners have strong bhakti to attain samadhi, isn't it that also living the yamas and niyamas in our everyday life should be something to aim for? Let's say we take saucha and non violence. Wouldn't it be important (but of course voluntary for the individual) to cultivate this by not living in a way that does promote the mass meat industry or pollutes the environment?
Happy to hear your thoughts on this :)
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k.cherry
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 3:49:27 PM
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The problem here is that violence is ultimately arbitrary. Life lives on life. Reality is unbroken through all transformations and knows nothing of the human concept of violence outside of human thought. Paraphrasing what Sey says, how is eating vegetables not violence? That poor broccoli on my cutting board every night!
I think it's more important to practice being still, and then do what comes naturally from that place. Who knows, it may end up being that not eating meat is what comes naturally, but it will certainly come from a different place than the mind that says, "Don't eat meat. Violence is bad."
-KC |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 4:10:40 PM
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| This is an interesting topic and I am enjoying the different points of view. I have come to accept some truth in the concept of panpsychism, that is there may be levels of consciousness in all life forms, and possibly even inanimate objects. I am familiar with the horrors in how animals are treated in most meat plants and do agree with your raising awareness around this issue. Since I have not yet been able to completely eliminate animals from my diet, I've chosen a middle ground. I stopped eating all mammals. There's no question in my mind chickens and fish have awareness but as with all things in the world it is difficult to live perfectly. Alcohol and caffiene in small doses can enhance life and avoiding them can cause others to feel uncomfortable in gatherings. A separate issue relates to how this all translates into our spiritual path. I like Yogani's teachings in this realm. He acknowledges human attachments and suggests we can let go of these as our energies are transformed through our practice, rather than through dogma and ego. Interestingly, during my early AYP practices, when I was experiencing energy overload, it was suggested to eat heavier foods such as meat. They do help ground us. I have been captivated by the show Alone, in which people compete in the wilderness to just survive off the land. There are gruesome aspects to living in a harsh environment without a super market. There is not one individual on that show that can survive as a vegetarian. Clearly that is a construct and I am not suggesting we need to eat meat just because our ancesters relied on it for survival. Seeing these individuals hunt for what they need and show appreciation to the animals for the sacrifice of their lives, feels at least more connected and responsible. Michael Pollen, wrote a book The Ominvores Dilemma, in which he explores these issues in depth and I found that an interesting exploration. |
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zamolxes
Romania
93 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2020 : 5:23:48 PM
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These sre really good topics of discussiom, and I feel it does concern us, yet a mere discussion amounts to nothing in the face of true experience. For instance, we may decide to avoid being part of the problem, stop eating meat, stop unconsciously promoting the excess of industry. But suchere actions, altough compassionate, are more of a hindrace than letting us flow through life. As k.cherry said, there's something natural and shiny about simple people, that those full of opinions and morality lack.
From my experience, the yamas and niyamas were a lesson I learned with my being by mixing fully with my ignorance. By actions of mine in regards with people's ways, by my thoughts that seemed full of truth, I have experienced a lot of chaos, misunderstandings and blockages in my spirituality, and yet if not for these experiences, I wouldn't have had the strenght to fully surrender, and embrace a pure style of life.
At the end of the day, we know nothing, and it takes us probing with our knowledge until it becones clear. Then we live in inner silence, not needing to know, not having opinions, not seeking and neither proclaiming. For God's voice is silence, so we better just watch things happen because one day or the other the bad will destroy itself, and the good that keeps silent will nourish itself.
It is clear of course that society's ways are completely absurd, businesses and industries that grow for greed and from exploitation. Politicians and stars seek power and interest and in such foolishness their pride becomes so noisy that not even the clearest silence. Hell, even doctors and judges are blind, most drunk with their titles. It is sick, and common people choose this kind of people as their idols, they want succes and permanence, so of course in their rashness no good words of advice from the wiser ones would be heeded.
And on it goes, why is so important for one to look clean? To stuff himself full of dead knowledge, so that he can show off in front of idiotic and judgemental people.
Why spend our time postponing life, and making money?
What is the use of money else than sharing it with those in need?
What is the use of knowledge else than mere survival? What is the use of belongings else than necessity and slight comfort? Comfort to allow us to better grasp the play of life surrounding us?
What is the use of guns? What is the use of drugs? What is the use for this subtle cult of personality?
What is the use of conflict else than selfish interest? What is the use of education based on this wrong structured society?
What is the use of conversations based on pride?
What is the use of greed? Of lust? Of gluttony? Of envy?
What is the use of word? What is the use of religion?
What is the use of doctrines? What is the use of philosophy?
What is the use of control?
What is the need to use?
So if we are to look for the wrong, we better help ourselfes first, and then act from wisdom, and let people learn from our actions. For we may not have some truth to speak anymore, and there will not be room for debates and old thoughts. Then, it will change.
So, there's a lot going on, and I choose to focus on the good, and life will teach me, because in surrender a higher force decides in our stead for life's betterment, and I better not meddle with it.
Change, that is true change, it happens inside of us. It happens when we surrender, when we stop playing with all this misunderstanding, when we stop blaming others and ourselves, and see life as it is. It will change when we stop wasting energy on anger and complaints, and become a part of the solution, when we open our eyes at the reality that what humans need is love. With that all else with happen on its own, there wouldn't be a need for any stupid need. The stress will vanish, and along with it very much of our sickness.
Again, happy to tell my thoughts  and sorry for the long post
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2020 : 09:26:51 AM
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a sage sits by river a to meditate every day ,a passer by sees this ,every day a scorpion comes to bite the sage but the sage picks up the scorpion and moves it on ,the passer by see this also and wonders why the the sage just doesent crush the scorpion ,so he asks the sage ,the sage replies that it is the dharma of the scorpion to bite,but it is my dharma not to cause suffering or death to the creature .
choices choices and more choices levels and more levels when you know you know and sometimes even when you do you have no choice
the blessing of the human form with all its god like credentials . |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2020 : 4:35:48 PM
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Thank you for your further inputs and for the wonderful quotation kumar ul islam :)
Justifying one's own behaviour by arguing the relativity of ethical principles will still neither make the individual nor any collective consciousness more enlightened.
The fact that we are living in a society and on planet earth indeed gives importance to investigate behavior and its consequences (Ethics and morals).
I think this especially applies to someone who aims to spread love and bliss consciousness and is besides his or her own path also concerned about the path of others.
It seems to me that quite often practitioners like to play the renunciate's role of being indifferent and free of dogma. This may be tempting, but worth to inquire.
Surely, and I am saying this from my own experience, change comes from within and this is what our sitting practice is doing.
But surely also, our practice continues when we are getting up and are forced to act.
By acting in unethical ways - which are mostly driven by our ego, the stillness we cultivate in meditation is easily disturbed.
While I agree that ethical discussions can quickly become an intellectual game, arguing wildly from thousands of different perspectives - which is surely not going to make the mind still, I nevertheless see an importance of ethical inquiry when inner silence is present - as a part of karma yoga.
As an example, similar as we are giving meaning into our inner silence in Samyama, we can also give meaning into our acting in daily life.
As we use certain words for Samyama in the sitting practice, certain ethical principles can be used in daily life. The classical yogic example for this can be the Yamas and Niyamas.
In this manner, ethical behaviour becomes a means of liberation rather than binding dogma. |
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k.cherry
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2020 : 11:18:37 AM
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Lightandlove, I am using moral relativism, not to justify behavior, but to illustrate that making distinctions requires precarious mental footing. Two people do the same action, one moving from silence and the other moving from a set of rules, each will have a different effect in the world because of the source of the energy that moves them. Some yogis in this forum eat meat, some do not. Who are we to judge? The act of judging may itself be an act of harm, or himsa. How can we love others unconditionally if we push them away with our concepts of right and wrong?
Taken from Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi by Munagala S. Venkataramiah, Talk 453
"[Desciple]: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and hereby saving someone else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain?
[Maharshi]: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right and another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them. But get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.
[...]
One of the ladies was not satisfied with this answer and asked for further elucidation. Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one’s own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of the sin. One’s own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise."
And this is from Here Lies the Heart by Mercedes De Acosta
"Noticing one time what I thought were some evil-looking priests who had come from the temple, I remarked on them to Bhagavan. He said, 'What do you mean by evil? I do not know the difference between what you call good and evil. To me they are both the same thing — just the opposite sides of the coin.' I should have known this. Bhagavan was, of course, beyond duality. He was beyond love and hatred, beyond good and evil, and beyond all pairs of opposites."
KC
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2020 : 1:56:50 PM
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Thank you k.cherry for your answer.
First I want to say that I totally agree with you in an ultimate sense. There is no point of judging others for their their behaviour or opinion. And it may indeed be an act of ahimsa in itself.
Although Sri Ramana Maharshi may not have judged and realized relativism, as pointed out in the quotes, he did indeed differentiate - related to the thread topic - when it comes to e.g. diet and alcohol regarding Sadhana.
[From: "Conscious Immortality", by Paul Brunton & Mungala Venkataramiah; “Dietary Concerns”, Pg 15]
Q: What about diet?
M: Food affects the mind. The right food makes it more sattvik. For the practice of any kind of yoga, vegetarianism is absolutely necessary.
Q: What about those not accustomed to a vegetarian diet?
M: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty. Nourishment may be obtained from vegetarian food no less than from flesh. But the realized person’s mind is not influenced by the food eaten. However, get accustomed to vegetarianism gradually.
Q: But if it is a matter of non-killing, then even plants have life.
M: And so do the tiles you are sitting on!
Q: Could one receive spiritual illumination while eating meat?
M: Yes. But abandon it gradually and accustom yourself to sattvik food. Once you have attained illumination, what you eat will make less difference, just as on a great fire it is immaterial what fuel is added.
…………
Q: Do you recommend that meat and alcohol be given up?
M: Yes. It is a useful aid in the beginning. The difficulty in surrendering them is not that they are really necessary, but that we have become habituated to them. Until the mind is firm in realization, it must have some picture or idea to dwell on, or else the meditation will quickly give way to sleep or (wandering) thoughts. There is a subtle essence in all food; it is this which affects the mind. So for those who are practicing meditation to find the Self, dietetic rules have been laid down, which it is advisable to follow. Sattvik foods promote meditation, whereas rajasik food like meat and tamasik food [basically drugs, alcohol and tobacco] hinder it.
Q: Why do you take milk but not eggs?
M: Domesticated cows yield more milk than their calves require and they find it a pleasure to be relieved. Eggs contain potential lives.
…………
Q: Is it harmless to continue smoking?
M: No, tobacco is a poison. It is better to do without it. Tobacco gives only a temporary stimulation to which there must be a reaction with craving for more. Also, it is not good for meditation practice.
Q: Is there any drug to promote meditation?
M: No, because afterwards the user would be unable to meditate without taking it habitually. Those who take opium or alcohol are unconsciously seeking the blissful thoughtless state of the real Self. They get an intimation of this state by drugs, but afterwards they must resume their normal state and the craving comes back even stronger until they become chronic addicts and slaves to the substance. With all such stimulants there must be a fall. If the mind is subdued, everything is conquered.
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So I'm left wondering how this is to be precarious mental footing, being spoken by the very same person?
It is a good question to ask who are we to judge what is right or wrong, ask what we are supposed to do, but at the same time we are forced to act and speak. (I am supposing here that we are practitioners who want to do sadhana while living a normal life in society).
I would say that we find exactly this dilemma in the Bhagavad Gita.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 07:32:29 AM
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Yes yes the gita holds many truths all individual all universal.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 07:38:57 AM
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This topic has moved from the original question of having a meat diet when we know that the way animals are being reared industrially is not right. So, no meat diet so as not to endorse the atrocities to animals.
In a larger context- when do we say ‘no’ to something that is inherently not right. When do we act and when do we surrender - essentially the same kind of question. I asked that question not so long ago and Christi gave me a good answer - will it bring more happiness to act or to surrender and decide from there.
It is a matter of intuition and personal choice and what drives the individual at the point in time.
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 07:50:17 AM
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quote:
[From: "Conscious Immortality", by Paul Brunton & Mungala Venkataramiah; “Dietary Concerns”, Pg 15]
Q: What about diet?
M: Food affects the mind. The right food makes it more sattvik. For the practice of any kind of yoga, vegetarianism is absolutely necessary.
Q: What about those not accustomed to a vegetarian diet?
M: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty. Nourishment may be obtained from vegetarian food no less than from flesh. But the realized person’s mind is not influenced by the food eaten. However, get accustomed to vegetarianism gradually.
Q: But if it is a matter of non-killing, then even plants have life.
M: And so do the tiles you are sitting on!
Q: Could one receive spiritual illumination while eating meat?
M: Yes. But abandon it gradually and accustom yourself to sattvik food. Once you have attained illumination, what you eat will make less difference, just as on a great fire it is immaterial what fuel is added.
quote:
Q: Is it harmless to continue smoking?
M: No, tobacco is a poison. It is better to do without it. Tobacco gives only a temporary stimulation to which there must be a reaction with craving for more. Also, it is not good for meditation practice.
Hi lightandlove,
These quotes from Ramana Maharshi are referring to the aspects of food in terms of their gunas. There are three gunas, rajas, tamas and sattva. Food or substances that have a tamasic quality, cause us to become more dull and lethargic. Those that have a rajasic quality cause us to become overactive, angry or agitated. Those that have a satvic quality cause us to become more pure, peaceful and calm. These qualities apply to every aspect of nature and to every aspect of our body and mind, so they are not only limited to what we put into our bodies.
The general idea in yoga is to try to avoid things that are either tamasic or rajasic, and to try to bring more things into our lives that are sattvic, leading to a pure and balanced state of mind, which is more conducive to spiritual practice. Obviously it is not an exact science and actually changes depending on the person and the stage of spiritual development that they are at. Someone who is too tamasic (slothful) may actually benefit from bringing more rajasic qualities into their life for a while, to counteract their slothful nature. Someone who is too rajasic, may benefit from bringing more tamasic elements into their life for a time to counteract their rajasic nature. But, increasingly, it is good to bring things into a balanced sattvic state where we are more in equilibrium and living a more pure and balanced life, away from the extremes of tamas and rajas. Eventually all of the gunas are transcended, including sattva.
In terms of food, certain food items are considered to be rajasic or tamasic, not only fish, meat and tobacco. Other things such as garlic, onions and spiced foods are considered to be more rajasic in nature. Heavy foods in general, can be considered to be tamasic in nature.
The Hatha Yoga Pradipika, which was a text composed around 500 years ago, lists some of the foods that the author recommends avoiding. This is from chapter three verse 61 of the text:
"Bitter, sour, saltish, hot, green vegetables, fermented, oily, mixed with til seed, rape seed, intoxicating liquors, fish, meat, curds, chhaasa pulses, plums, oil-cake, asaoetida (hinga), garlic, onion, etc., should not be eaten." [Swatmarama]
Other yoga teachers might suggest other foods that they consider it good to avoid in general, because they are either too rajasic or too tamasic. In AYP, Yogani recommends that the diet should be light and nutritious. This is a simple way of saying that the diet should be sattvic in general and covers most bases. It also covers the fact that a suitable diet for practice changes over time for each practitioner. So, what is considered light and nutritious one year, may be different a year later, as our practice evolves. We may need to eat heavier foods for a while, when the kundalini energy is very strong and this is also mentioned in the lessons (lesson 69).
In the lessons, the qualities of foods and the general effects that they can have on the body are described more in terms of pitta, vata and kapha, which is the Ayurvedic categorisation of phenomena. This does not map directly onto tamas, sattva and rajas, but has some correlation. See lesson addition 304.1 for more on this with food charts showing which foods correspond with which aspects of nature from the Ayurvedic perspective.
The important point though is all of this is about what is beneficial or not beneficial to eat for yogic training purposes, based on the effect that it has on the body and the mind, in the early to mid stages of our practice. As Ramana mentions in the quote above, it becomes less important as we progress on the path.
Decisions that we make of a moral nature in terms of what we eat, or do in general in society, are separate from this and will also change over time as our practice progresses. This is why the yamas and niyamas are not introduced in the beginning in AYP, but are introduced only later on, with a strong emphasis that these are things that arise as a result of practice, rather than things that should be imposed on people from outside.
This is mentioned in lesson 149:
"One thing everyone who does yoga for any length of time has found is that the limbs of yoga are connected, meaning, if we start in one limb, the others will be affected. As we purify and open, we will eventually be drawn into all of the limbs. It is common for new meditators to become voracious spiritual readers (svadhyaya), lean toward a purer diet (saucha), and feel more sensitive about the wellbeing of others (ahimsa). In fact the best way to achieve progress in yama and niyama is by going straight to samadhi with deep meditation. Then harmonious behavior comes naturally from inside, rather than having to be enforced from outside. These things are indicators of the connectedness of yoga. It occurs on all levels of practice. Sometimes it is called "Grace," because spiritual blessings seem to come out of nowhere. In truth, such blessing are being telegraphed through us via spiritual conductivity rising in our nervous system from something we did somewhere on the eight-limbed tree of yoga. Even the sincere thought, "Is there something more than this?" is a powerful yoga practice, and it is found in the niyama limb - it is surrender, bhakti. As you know from the lessons, this conductivity in the nervous system becomes "ecstatic" when kundalini begins to move. When that happens we are really getting connected through the limbs of yoga - here, there and everywhere." [Yogani]
Not judging others in regards to their behaviour is an important part of both the yamas and niyamas. Ahimsa (non-violence towards self or other) is the first and most important of the yamas, and santosha (contentment and acceptance of others and one's circumstances as they are), is the second of the niyamas. If we live our life in accordance with ahimsa and santosha, then we are cultivating sattvic qualities in our life. This will benefit our own practice and lead to the arising of wisdom, compassion and love. This in turn will affect our own conduct and will inspire the conduct of others around us.
Christi |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 08:49:44 AM
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| The fruits of actions from the gita spring to mind this is the key to real peace within, relinquishing the outcome, concepts arise making for left, right, wrong, right this does not mean they are real or unreal but They are just that conditioned dharmas, modes of living all with precepts just like our thoughts arising then passing away, moments of awakening produce truths deep or surface ones, shall I eat meat, shall I kill my neighbour, fragments of a greater reality within the permanent impermanent your choice free will the guru the gods in you. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 1:54:35 PM
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| Lightandlove, You've certainly engaged the group on this topic. As I reflect on the various responses I see a few different key messages. There appear to be those who approach this from a dualistic perspective (good and bad), it seems you are in this camp. Then there are those who are non dualistic, . I think it is great you are passionate about this world and what to engage in change. I am reminded of a bumper sticker I saw years ago, it read "meat is murder". This has always stuck with me. It is a strong message attempting to penetrate people's complacency, yet it doesn't seem to work on most people. Ultimately I've come to realize I can only work on myself. We do influence others by how we carry ourself in the world, we just can't force people to do what we want them to do. If I never eat meat again they will still continue to slaughter animals in the large processing plants. I could spend every day out on the streets wielding banners decrying these horrible practices and likely just have people scream at me. I believe humans are pretty immature spiritually, although there seem to be a growing number of people who are bringing a higher consciousness to the world. As I get older I tend to focus more on what I can do to change me. I've always liked the serenity prayer. Change the things you can (that includes your behaviors and sharing your opinions with others), accept the things you can't (e.g. you can't force others to see things as you do), have the wisdom to know the difference (that's the hard part). I sense many of the wise folks on this site are working on different issues in their lives having already worked through their own decisions on these matters and having accepted what they can and can't change in others. |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 3:51:15 PM
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Thanks a lot for your answers.
Especially Christi. You have commented, summarized and clarified very well. Good to have you here
Interpaul, thank you for your what I would call a "getting practically" reply.
I felt attracted to yoga by its philosophical side. I was a strong seeker at a young age and it actually is the non-dualistic that attracted me to yoga and eastern philosophies. Confused of all these theories and all this arguing about right and wrong I liked the idea and simplicity of the upanishads and advaita vedanta. It was to me like I finally found the answer to my seeking. I have/had a teacher who guided me through spiritual practice. Her teaching was simple. Do what you like, don't judge others for what they do and don't try to change them. Change yourself. Be still.
I automatically became vegetarian, stopped drinking/smoking as my body started to refuse it and I became more and more sensitive to energy.
After some years of living a little like a renunciate I got more and more drawn into normal life. It became clear to me that my dharma is not to be a monk in a cave but to play the member of a society. While I very much enjoyed and enjoy this and feel that this is the right path, it became clear that it is not necessarily easier. You are forced by nature to act. It's a fun game, but a lot to learn.
This "Problem" is of course not there for the realized liberated being but as long as you are not completely there and you are still attached to one or another thing or have to work on your karma, you are indeed working on a dualistic plane and you are tested. You easily see where your practice did its work and where you are not yet.
I like these ethical questions and think they are very important for us as humans. Their discussion may be bothering some as many things come to the surface. Nevertheless, I feel like together we can indeed find truth. In cunjunction with Inner silence, we see our self unfolding in the process. |
Edited by - lightandlove on Dec 26 2020 3:19:39 PM |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 4:10:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
The fruits of actions from the gita spring to mind this is the key to real peace within, relinquishing the outcome, concepts arise making for left, right, wrong, right this does not mean they are real or unreal but They are just that conditioned dharmas, modes of living all with precepts just like our thoughts arising then passing away, moments of awakening produce truths deep or surface ones, shall I eat meat, shall I kill my neighbour, fragments of a greater reality within the permanent impermanent your choice free will the guru the gods in you.
Very much appreciate your replies kumar ul islam, full of depth |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2020 : 11:45:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by interpaul
This is an interesting topic and I am enjoying the different points of view. I have come to accept some truth in the concept of panpsychism, that is there may be levels of consciousness in all life forms, and possibly even inanimate objects. I am familiar with the horrors in how animals are treated in most meat plants and do agree with your raising awareness around this issue.
Robert Heinlein, the science fiction writer explored the idea of panpsychism in his book "Stranger in a Strange Land." His Martian character had some of the abilities we might call siddhis, and a highly sympathetic view of the life of our planet and of his own world. He had a concept, to grok other creatures, or to understand them at a deep and sympathetic level. One thing I especially recall is the Martian not being willing to walk on a lawn until he had considered or perhaps even communicated with the grass, and determined that the grass liked to be walked on! I guess to generalize, the reality we face may be much deeper than we know. There is nothing to say Heinlein's imaginings were accurate, but if there is consciousness and volition at all levels of life, we should not guess that we understand their psyches. |
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Dec 23 2020 : 2:32:38 PM
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| Kensbikes100, Sounds like an interesting book. There are certainly a number of mainstream science studies showing plants are much more aware of their environment. They release stress hormones if the sound of chewing insects is played. The science of forrests has exploded with strong evidence of sharing under the ground in response to threats. It would be a major burden to have to try to communicate with grass every time we walk on a lawn but this knowledge does make me appreciate the life force is very real in everything and should be respected. Ultimately when it comes to eating, the natural world has evolved to have living things eat other living things, that's the deal. In the end how we do it is critically important. |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2020 : 02:01:00 AM
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quote:
Ultimately when it comes to eating, the natural world has evolved to have living things eat other living things, that's the deal. In the end how we do it is critically important.
And certainly something we are able to investigate. Not only regarding eating, but also regarding resources. Also the way how they are transported and so on.
There is predation and parasitism but also symbiosis in nature.
While they are all naturally occuring, humanities strong desires lead to a huge imbalance.
When we are purifying ourselves from desires and cultivate "outpouring divine love" as an effect of spiritual practice, we may realize that we are indeed able to live in harmony.
The point is not to judge ourselves or others for doing wrong, but to investigate and inquire. This may naturally occur as we proceed on the path and become content with what is really enough. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2020 : 03:21:29 AM
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We must also acknowledge that this is a world existing and experienced because duality reigns - take away duality and it will collapse. So it is a violent world, always has been and I suspect always will be. Us trying to make it what it is not, will not work.
Sey
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Dec 24 2020 : 09:52:58 AM
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The present topic is like many other things in life: an opportunity to get stuck or make progress. Judging others is often a form of attachment (“I like this, I don’t like that, this is good, this is bad” etc.) In contrast, using diet and habits as a skillful mean for progress becomes just another practice. If things are not clear, it is easy to do an experiment: eat vegetarian (or even vegan) for two weeks, and see how you feel and what happens in your practices. Then eat meat/drink alcohol every day for two weeks, and notice the effect. Most people will notice the effect after just a couple of days of a new diet.
For a faster experiment, eat a breakfast of boiled whole grains (like brown rice or barley), maybe just with a little butter or apple sauce. Wait an hour, and do your practice: Notice how you feel, what happens. Then decide what diet is better for you.
As the nervous system purifies with spiritual practices, you may get to a point where meat, alcohol, stimulants, etc. are not tolerated by your system.
Our body is a pile of food - it is a big pile of broccoli if you are vegetarian  . Everything we eat becomes part of us, we take in the vibrations of our food. One of my teachers used to say that we take the karma of our food. Cultivating gratitude and reverence for our food transform the eating experience. In the end, it is the Divine eating Divine to make Divine. Until that is our experience, a big pile of barley and broccoli helps. 
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2020 : 06:29:28 AM
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Whatever we do, we take space and resources (which are all finite on this planet) in order to maintain our lives. If the he entire humankind became vegan, we would still deprive other species of habitats.
I have found, over the years, that I don't have much choice about my diet. I have to do what this body requires. Sometimes it wants light food, sometimes it will feel staved and overloaded with energy unless I resort to a grounding meaty diet.
Making o virtue of your eating habits and judging others is a harmful behaviour.
This discussion reminds me of a line in one of the gnostic gospels. The disciples ask Jesus if they should fast. He replied something along the lines "When you travel through the country eat what they give you and help the sick."
Preaching veganism or vegetarianism is not the point.
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Alcohol, Meat and the New Age
