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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 07:25:35 AM
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 In is funny how talking about diet-and-yoga and how great is to be non-judgmental becomes an opportunity to judge anyone who mentions the benefits of eating a vegetarian diet.
Nobody should believe me or someone else when it comes to the way our diet impacts our yoga practice. Please just consider diet as another tool in the yoga toolbox, and experiment with it.
Why do we talk about ahimsa and non-duality in a discussion about meat and alcohol? It is because of the interconnectivity of yoga. Wherever we start to practice yoga, be that meditation, asanas, pranayama, etc., all the other elements/limbs of yoga are enlivened. As we keep practicing, our understanding and experience of each limb of yoga evolves, and transforms. As Yogani says, “Practice wisely and enjoy!”
On another note, the AYP system is revolutionary as it starts with the most powerful practice: deep meditation. However, even this is not new: Tibetan Yoga also starts with meditation. In the end, the truth is in the pudding - I mean, practice  
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 08:49:57 AM
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Sey : 
Hello Friends,
In Silence, there is nothing to say, add or do. Everything is perfect the way it is. When Silence moves, there are different patterns, textures and so on. Basically the whole creation and everything around us is the moving silence or Shakti.
Because of this, there is so much beauty. In the same way, different perspectives adds beauty to this forum.
After all, it’s satsang or gathering/sharing of spiritual people. Different voices and perspectives add beauty to this forum. Everyone resonates with different things. It’s wonderful and such a gift that people visiting the forums can take what resonates most from each contributor. Contribution and collaboration for the benefit of all beings. 
Much Love,
Sunyata. |
Edited by - sunyata on Dec 31 2020 08:54:59 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 10:17:52 AM
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@Blanche
You are putting words into my mouth
I have said :
Quote 1: Just be merry and do whatever you want
Quote 2: So do whatever you want , eat meat or not , but know that liberation is not about that
Quote 3: ayp says and that was my experience that our diet fluctuates from light vegetarian one to more heaby one according to kundalini
You could have discussed all the quotes, facts and examples but you did not, i am not sure you read them, which is ok .Yet to create a story that you are being judged is not acceptable. knowing that I am only replying to make things clear in the thread and not because I need to prove anything to anyone
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interpaul
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 11:09:24 AM
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It feels like things are spinning a little out of control here and that makes me a bit anxious. I just want to say I've really appreciated everyone's sharing of their different perspectives. It is clear we don't all agree on everything. I imagine many of you find it hard to respond to everything that is shared as there are many different tangents this dialogue has explored. One thing is clear, we are all here because we care about others and have benefited from Yogani's teachings.
Maheswari, I've given you a little pushback mostly in an attempt to understand your perspective. Your response have helped me to better understand your viewpoint, which I appreciate greatly. I've respected your wisdom and appreciate all of the guidance you've shared with me on this forum.
Sey, Thank you for your non conventional sharings, they always make me pause and consider a different perspective.
Blanche and Sunyata, As an aspiring vegetarian I appreciate your messages as they give me some encouragement to explore diet more deeply
Lightandlove, You certainly hit the jackpot with this question, hope you are enjoying the dialogue
Kumar ul islam, Am I still not a slave and not a free being for needing to be a peacemaker?
I appreciate this group and hope everyone has a great day |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 11:14:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
In is funny how talking about diet-and-yoga and how great is to be non-judgmental becomes an opportunity to judge anyone who mentions the benefits of eating a vegetarian diet.
There's the rub, Blanche!
And it goes both way, IMO, because I don't see a way to broach this subject without the danger of being judgmental, whichever position you take. Mention ahimsa to a meat eater and they will feel judged. The reverse is true as well, as you have pointed out.
Are we all coming to Yogani's wisdom yet? It appears that he has (yet again) shown flawless judgement in his stance on diet:
quote:
"Light and nutritious" is about all the diet description you will see here in these lessons.
(my underline)
Good summary if the thread, Interpaul. I'll tell you what this discussion reminds me of:
Buddha talks about "things of perfected knowledge" that he has never taught. In "A Handful of Leaves", he says:
"And why monks, have I not taught these? Monks, indeed because these are not of significance to what is beneficial; neither do they lead to the principles of the renounced life, nor to disillusionment, nor to dispassion, nor to cessation, nor to peacefulness, nor to perfected knowledge, nor to awakening, nor to Nirvana. It is for this reason that I have not taught these."
It seems to me that Yogani is on the same page when he keeps his chapter about diet vey slim (pun not intended). 
Here's my wish everyone: Enjoy you New Year's festive dinner, whichever diet you adopt. Lots of love and have a great 2021! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Dec 31 2020 11:27:27 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 3:33:18 PM
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| Que sera sera fellow ayp explorers we have much to learn |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 5:09:35 PM
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quote:
There's the rub, Blanche!
And it goes both way, IMO, because I don't see a way to broach this subject without the danger of being judgmental, whichever position you take. Mention ahimsa to a meat eater and they will feel judged. The reverse is true as well, as you have pointed out.
Hi BlueRC and all,
This does not make any logical sense to me. Someone can talk about ahimsa in relation to anything at all, without judging anyone. Ahimsa is a principle, and can be applied to any aspect of life. If someone feels judged, by someone else talking about ahimsa, then that is a separate issue and could be an emotion being created purely in the mind of the listener.
The same would be true if someone who was an omnivore, advised a vegetarian to eat meat. It would not necessarily be judgemental, and could be coming from a place of compassion, if they believe that a vegetarian diet is fundamentally unhealthy, as many people in the world do. Again, if the person receiving the advice felt judged, that could be a creation of their own mind.
If someone does feel judged, for whatever reason, and they have sufficient inner silence present, then they could use that as fuel for self-inquiry. Asking the question: "Who is it who feels judged?" for example, or: "Is this thought true?".
As for what the Buddha taught on the issue of meat-eating and vegetarianism, it was quite complex and based on a number of different principles, one of which was ahimsa. For example, he did not permit his monks to kill animals, because of the basic principle of ahimsa. However, he did allow them to eat meat, if it was offered to them as alms (donations). The reason for this was because he did not want them to exercise preference over which foods they would or would not accept. So, the principle of non-preference was considered more important as a training principle, than the principle of ahimsa in that situation. There was a caveat though. If a monk had reason to believe that the animal had been killed especially for the monk, then they could refuse to accept it. So, the principle of ahimsa would over-ride the principle of non-preference in that situation, because the Buddha did not want to encourage the killing of animals for his monks.
Whether the Buddha ate meat or not himself is difficult to know, and it depends on which suttas you read and believe. Different suttas give different accounts.
But the Buddha did say that truth is found through practice. So, not much has changed in two and a half thousand years!
Happy New Year to all!
Christi
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2020 : 10:28:40 PM
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| Happy New Year! |
Edited by - chas on Dec 31 2020 10:45:12 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 12:20:59 AM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
This does not make any logical sense to me. Someone can talk about ahimsa in relation to anything at all, without judging anyone.
I was, of course, talking about bringing up ahimsa in the context of having meat in one's diet. If I were to point out to a meet eater that he/she is breaching this principle, I wouldn't know how to put it in a way that would be other than counterproductive. Perhaps you can muster more diplomacy than I can, that is very possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As for what the Buddha taught on the issue of meat-eating and vegetarianism
I do not know Buddha's stance on meat eating and vegetarianism. The point of the opening paragraph in "A Handful of Leaves" is not specific to diet. What it says is that some lessons are useful to teach, others not so much. I believe diet falls in the latter category. That's all I was trying to say.
All in all, I think my previous post was not clearly written and it failed to convey my meaning. Please ignore what I said. I am sure AYP teachers will know the time and place when it's a good idea to talk to somebody about his/her diet.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 04:18:04 AM
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At BRC
I don't feel brushed at all all when talking about ahimsa and me eating meat.I do not feel judged nor am I judging anyone.The only judgment is a story fabricated in the mind of the one thinking he/she is judged....obviously there is a need for enquiry in that knee jerk reaction
That being said, not being brushed does not mean you don't put healty boundaries when anyone is misinterpreting your words
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At Interpaul: there is no need to feel anxious.Please ask for clarifications as much as you want. |
Edited by - maheswari on Jan 01 2021 04:55:51 AM |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 04:31:29 AM
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quote:
Arjuna was identified as Arjuna that is why he did not want to kill his relatives.Only when Krishna explained to him the relativity of good and bad , and that Arjuna is not doing the killing although he is killing, only then Arjuna was able to do his dharma as warrior.Only then he dropped the duality that was making him sit and do nothing and judge good and bad.Only then he stepped out from his I stories.
I very much appreciate your inputs and quotes maheswari. Regarding the quote, I agree with you, but I think it is a little bit like taking one sentence of a whole book and saying this is all one finds in the book. In the Bhagavad Gita we indeed find very practical advice too. For example Krishna explained the three Gunas to Arjuna and their importance (As Christi very well explained in his first reply). Also, Krishna characterizes the noble soul.
For me the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita are about being fully involved in life and the different aspects of nature while not being attached.
A non-dualist view where dualistic concepts are more or less denied actually doesn't seem non-dualistic at all to me, but is in itself creating a great dualism again. It seems like something coming from the mind and not from inner silence. |
Edited by - lightandlove on Jan 01 2021 09:51:06 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 04:52:00 AM
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Hello lightandlove
Denying duality is not the road to non duality.Samsara is the way to nirvana.From duality we reach non duality. Denying is mind stuff as you pointed out because it is not rooted in silence.In ayp it is called non relational enquiry
Once silence is solid, non relational enquiry appears and will continue to mature all through your life.There is no finish line.And slowly duality will spontaneously fade away as there seems to be no difference in all the pair of opposites.Until that happens, seekers are given yamas and niyamas , or the 10 commandments etc...These are means to an end not an end in themselves.
So a good teaching and teacher will always remind that stopping at the dos and donts is just mind rigidity.The world is full of good yet unenlightened people There is more, and with time and maturity and solid enquiry, liberation becomes possible.
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Edited by - maheswari on Jan 01 2021 04:55:19 AM |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 05:54:19 AM
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Hi maheswari,
thank you for clarification. It makes sense to me.
If e.g. Yamas and Niyamas are means to an end, how would it not be important also for the liberated one to still cultivate them as a means of serving others who are not there yet and may need the means in order to proceed on their still dualistic path?
For the seeker liberated teachers are like role models and it is potentially very misleading to not clarify the importance of means to enlightenment.
This does in itself not contradict what you were saying:
quote:
So a good teaching and teacher will always remind that stopping at the dos and donts is just mind rigidity.
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Edited by - lightandlove on Jan 01 2021 06:35:47 AM |
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 07:42:57 AM
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In Lesson 390, "When will I be enlightened", Yogani says:
"Enlightenment of the one is enlightenment of the whole, and vise versa. The two cannot be separated. Therefore, whether any of us can be labeled as "enlightened" or not is rather meaningless, because we are on a continuum of ever-expanding consciousness. The label is irrelevant, and usually misleading. Improvement in the quality of our life, and the lives of those around us, is relevant. Conduct is relevant. Our true condition is known by our deeds, not by our label, and especially not by what we think we are. Any sort of label (high or low), held on to, is going to be an obstruction to spiritual progress for everyone concerned." |
Edited by - lightandlove on Jan 01 2021 07:51:41 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 1:51:10 PM
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Hello Lightandlove
quote:
would it not be important also for the liberated one to still cultivate them as a means of serving others who are not there yet and may need the means in order to proceed on their still dualistic path?
True. But that does not mean one becomes entitled to tell others what to do or to insinuate that they have a moral obligation to do this and not that.They are free like you are free to do whatever you want.A lifetime is barely enough to work on oneself
quote:
Liberated teachers are like role models and it is potentially very misleading to not clarify the importance of means to enlightenment.
They are not role models in the sense that they ought to be put on a pedestal. They are very ordinary and many live a mundane life with a mundane work not related to yoga.
The teacher or ayp lessons will encourage the seeker if (and only if,no forcing, no convincing) that seeker feels like shifting to a more vegetarian diet cause it suits him at that point of time in his path (no one knows how that will change down the line). Yet when it becomes about fixing others and not oneself, or when it becomes an obsession, the teacher or any friend that has already tread that path , will plant an enquiry seed that might flower later on or not.He will say:hey dont go into rigidity and fixed things.Question your beliefs. That is what Krishna said to Arjuna.The ability to move and act as per what the moment dictates. And this moment is different then the previous or the next one, each moment needs a different kind of action within the limited possibilities that will be given to choose from.That is why Krishna says yoga is skill in action, meaning action rooted in understanding.
As for the ayp lesson quote
I quote:
mprovement in the quality of our life, and the lives of those around us, is relevant. Conduct is relevant. Our true condition is known by our deeds, not by our label, and especially not by what we think we are. Any sort of label (high or low), held on to, is going to be an obstruction to spiritual progress for everyone concerned.
Yes ,the words say our deeds not monitoring the deeds of others.High labels are even more dangerous than low labels.The mind is tricky, it can create a high label for yourself that says oh i am the good yogi that does not harm anything nor anyone.Is that true?Sometime our words can destroy people.
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There is a poem by Adyashanti that says:
Take a moment to check and see if you are actually here
Before there is right and wrong
we are just here
Before there is good and bad or unworthy
Before there is the sinner and the saint
we are just here
just meet here where all points of views
merge into one point
and the one point disappears ...into radiant emptiness
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Now go ground and dont over anaylse all those words |
Edited by - maheswari on Jan 01 2021 1:55:01 PM |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 3:09:59 PM
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Plant based diets clearly have benefits coming from a number a different perspectives. Ahimsa, ecology, health/wellness, among others.
Also, guilt and shame about diet is probably more harmful than is having a less than optimal diet. If people are inclined to eat a more light, compassionate, and nutritious diet, I say go for it! The benefits are many and wonderful. If not, no worries.
Peace |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 4:06:16 PM
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quote:
If e.g. Yamas and Niyamas are means to an end, how would it not be important also for the liberated one to still cultivate them as a means of serving others who are not there yet and may need the means in order to proceed on their still dualistic path?
For the seeker liberated teachers are like role models and it is potentially very misleading to not clarify the importance of means to enlightenment.
Hi Lightandlove,
It is a misunderstanding that the yamas and niyamas are simply a means to an end. They are also the end itself. The more we progress on the path, the more the yamas and niyamas become seen to be aspects of the Divine flow. They naturally become aspects of the way in which we conduct ourselves in the world because of the rise of unity and divine love.
The idea that enlightenment is a form of separation from the world, where we no longer care about the welfare of others, because we have somehow risen above it, is one of the traps of the mind. The greatest of all traps.
See here from lesson 327:
"There is a misunderstanding that has been perpetuated by some teachers - the premise that becoming That is the only thing of importance and nothing here on earth matters at all. In fact, according to this premise, nothing here on earth exists. In a purely philosophical sense this may be true. We learned it in high school quantum physics, yes? Yet, when taken on the level of intellect, it is one of the biggest traps for getting stuck in non-relational self-inquiry.
There is the idea that it matters not one bit what becomes of this earth or the multitude of life that is on it. There is a distinction between one who is truly enlightened and one who has created a division between themselves and the rest of the world through non-relational self-inquiry, enforced by a rigid intellectual view. With clear relational self-inquiry based in stillness, we can reject this out of hand. Neti neti!
The enlightened one will be he or she who remains engaged for the benefit of all, as That. Advancement on the path to enlightenment brings with it the perception that we can only be free when all are free, for we are One with all who are suffering.
The image of the lone sage on the mountaintop, indifferent to the travails of the world, is fiction. If a sage is not engaged in some way for the benefit of others, their condition will be in question. True enlightenment is the spontaneous outpouring of divine love, which is working constantly to uplift everyone. The sage becomes a willing and wide open channel for That, which does nothing even while doing everything." [Yogani]
See also lesson addition 164.1:
Addition 164.1 - Personal Power Becoming Divine Power
"With rising abiding inner silence (witness), we also become much more sensitive to our occasional wrong actions and make the necessary adjustments quickly. It is simply too uncomfortable to be out of the divine flow that is coming through us more and more as we continue on our path. Your awareness of the possibility for harm when projecting your power is a reflection of this, but you need not fear it. You will know what to do and all will be well. This is the natural rise of the Yama called "Ahimsa" (acting without harming). It is automatic and reaches beyond immediate consequences to stimulate evolutionary influences far in the future. You can trust this morally self-regulating aspect of your abiding inner silence. All is happening as it should." [Yogani]
So, it is not the case that liberated teachers act in a certain way simply to act as role models to others. They act in that way because their conduct is guided by compassion and love and a desire to lead all beings to liberation.
Christi |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 6:36:37 PM
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| Thank you christi nail on head springs to mind, guidance where it is needed for all |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2021 : 8:04:35 PM
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Thank you, Christi, for a clear explanation. Indeed, liberated teachers behave as the humble servants of their students, and act toward the liberation of all human beings. Teachers are only students at another point in the journey. As Yogani writes:
Our wisdom is in invers proportion to our belief that it is complete.
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lightandlove
Germany
85 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2021 : 05:28:37 AM
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Hi Christi,
thank you again for your clarification. Very beautifully explained.
It resembles my own experience. Over the time as an effect of practice I find myself more and more drawn to be fully engaged and involved in life out there. Not from a place of attachment or "monitoring" or judging, but from the witness with compassion and empathy.
It reminds me of the following prayer of St. Francis:
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is offence, let me bring pardon.
Where there is discord, let me bring union.
Where there is error, let me bring truth.
Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
O Master, let me not seek as much
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love,
for it is in giving that one receives,
it is in self-forgetting that one finds,
it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
it is in dying that one is raised to eternal life. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2021 : 04:07:28 AM
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Bringing the subject of eating back on the table. I just read this in a Zen book.
quote:
Thus, there is sensual eating and wise eating. When the body composed of the four elements suffers the pangs of hunger and accordingly you provide it with food, but without greed, that is called wise eating. On the other hand, if you gluttonously delight in purity and flavour, you are permitting the distinctions which arise from wrong thinking. Merely seeking to gratify the organ of taste without realizing when you have taken enough is called sensual eating.[code]
This addresses attachment to food .
Sey [ |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2021 : 10:07:03 AM
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"Once the knowledge of the self dawns, there is no longer any question of good or bad, suffering or not suffering, happiness or unhappiness; the question just does not arise."
~
Nisargadatta Maharaj |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2021 : 1:56:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
"Once the knowledge of the self dawns, there is no longer any question of good or bad, suffering or not suffering, happiness or unhappiness; the question just does not arise."
~
Nisargadatta Maharaj
Hi Maha
This describes the state of pure Silence, where there is no experience or thought of good/bad happiness/unhappiness, nor any duality whatever.
When we act in the world, the question of what is good action and what is bad action is still very much there. I find that it can be trickier to navigate, in fact. Before, when acting from a 'me', it seemed more or less clear what serves 'me' and what doesn't (or so it seemed, in a delusional sort of way). When we are trying to balance the good of two or more parties involved in a situation, the thing to do is not always easy to settle and the question of good or bad will need some careful consideration. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2021 : 3:38:05 PM
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Hello Blue
The teacher who said that quote was acting in the world, he maintained his shop and lost his wife and daughter etc....so acting in the world and Silence are not mutually exclusive.If they are exclusive then what are we doing here in the forums? Why are we even practicing? Now we can encourage the by the book answers and stay in safe mind territory or introduce a glimpse of the full picture.
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Silence will not make you choose bad things as per the duality thinking of good and bad.So you can all relax in that thread It will make you operate as per the moment dictation, spontaneously and beyond any rigidity.So the questions that appear in the mind of ones who lives by good and bad duality do not appear in Silence .it is not talk , it is experience.It is not neo vedanta.It is not running from the world.
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Blake beautifully expresses it too:
The crow wished every thing was black, the owl that everything was white |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1734 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2021 : 4:11:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
Hello Blue
The teacher who said that quote was acting in the world, he maintained his shop and lost his wife and daughter etc....so acting in the world and Silence are not mutually exclusive.
Not at all, "stillness in action" is the expression coined by Yogani.
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
So you can all relax
Yes, we can relax (indeed, getting stressed wouldn't solve anything ).
What I was trying to say say is that we still need to make decisions about the right action. We make these decisions from a place of stillness ("stillness in action" again) as we weigh the good and bad options in front of us.
I think it would be rather dangerous to behave as if we could never be wrong again, because we have become enlightened. And that no pitfall could ever challenge us. That would be a "a trap of the mind", as Christi said above. |
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Alcohol, Meat and the New Age
