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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 01:45:36 AM
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Home is where the heart is  |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 02:42:49 AM
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quote:
Im not doing smilies I'm being an uber tough taskmaster tonight and you are in my dungeon
In stead of the definition of love, there are many examples of love.
a Guru is a definition of love....an impersonal human being outpouring his found love,
so perhaps the inner guru is the love I feel, I know it can grow....
Answers can be found in silence
Guru whispers them
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 05:39:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
quote:
Im not doing smilies I'm being an uber tough taskmaster tonight and you are in my dungeon
In stead of the definition of love, there are many examples of love.
a Guru is a definition of love....an impersonal human being outpouring his found love,
so perhaps the inner guru is the love I feel, I know it can grow....
Answers can be found in silence
Guru whispers them
Impersonal human being is an oxymoron.
You are again alluding to the love you feel which is perfectly valid. Love is an emotion experienced though human consciousness. It is related to the universe by being a creation of the universe, but is no more than that. We shouldn't let emotional feeling get tangled up in rational human exchange. One is not the other.
We perform actions which bring us emotional pleasure and emotions are the drivers for these actions. People feel altruistic when the exchanges do not involve material reward, but they do have emotional reward-and when you think about it, that's exactly what a material reward represents anyway. The 'altruist' simply misses out the material exchange and goes straight to the emotional reward. It is rational selfishness.
Meditation and SI allows us to disentangle the puzzle and see what's going on under our own hoods. We can then stop believing our own false narrative which gets in the way of getting on with life in an unfussy, untroubled, peaceful and smooth way. This is action in stillness to coin the yogic phrase. It may also be termed action less action, but this isn't a good phrase for it. I would venture to call it reaction less action, but only from the perspective that we don't gather any self reactionary suffering through the false employ of action through our egoistic self.
There is a point which must be travelled through for self realisation to occur. It involves a destabilisation of all we hold as reality. It is difficult to separate the wheat and the chaff whilst the wheat is growing in the field. First cut all the wheat down, gather then winnow. This is the only practical way to obtain the valuable wheat.
While the wheat is growing or in the process of harvesting, or gathering neither wheat nor chaff can clearly be seen. Only when the work is done and completed can the grains be counted. Everything prior to this is guesswork at best and completely false at worst. You can try intuition or feeling to guess the quantity, or apply clever analytical skills to try and obtain the answer ahead of time, but they will never tally exactly with the reality of the final counting.
That's as plain as I can put it. You can imagine how much grain you will have, you can intuit the quantity, or use equations to conclude the final result, but it will not and cannot be known until it is known and the wheat is weighed in reality.
All I'm doing here is to pointing out error. Nothing more. If you say you are flying then I will point out how your muscles work against gravity, or how gravity makes the body appear to fall, or air pressure keeps the wings of the aircraft aloft. I will tell you that it is not love or calculation that achieves the appearance of flight, it is physical reality. It is what it is and I am what I am.
You can do this my using SI to constantly and consistently trace experience and experiencer back to the source, but it is a very crude tool. It is like a hurricane that flattens the field and scatters the wheat in all directions, leaving the poor farmer searching the field and hedgerows to recover each lost grain. I'm not in favour of it, despite knowing its power and effectiveness, it is, I believe, too brutal for western minds at least.
All that being said, I love where you are and that we can converse like this, it is very special and exciting.
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Edited by - karl on Jul 02 2015 05:51:42 AM |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 06:21:03 AM
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Hi Karl,
Keeping company with this world,
There are only flowing images on an impermanent river -
Silence has no center or boundaries -
Collapsed on a pinhead, the entire creation disappears -
The source is outpouring love and light. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 07:17:43 AM
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quote:
It is like a hurricane that flattens the field and scatters the wheat in all directions, leaving the poor farmer searching
You know Karl, this really happened, the poor farmer searched and searched, found the path of yoga, found SI, found his Guru, and at last he found the inner Guru.
And now the farmer sees reality as it is, by his own experience, he knows he is
and also knows that he can not talk Thruth.
Thruth is the experience of, existence and knowledge here and now.
The farmer plants seeds of love now, wishing them to grow....
I call and feel That as LOVE , but there is no I, so Advaita talk, there is no love either.
Thanks for this interesting paradoxal talk together, talking is for the ego.
edit spelling. |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jul 02 2015 08:45:05 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 09:28:35 AM
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Hquote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
quote:
It is like a hurricane that flattens the field and scatters the wheat in all directions, leaving the poor farmer searching
You know Karl, this really happened, the poor farmer searched and searched, found the path of yoga, found SI, found his Guru, and at last he found the inner Guru.
And now the farmer sees reality as it is, by his own experience, he knows he is
and also knows that he can not talk Thruth.
Thruth is the experience of, existence and knowledge here and now.
The farmer plants seeds of love now, wishing them to grow....
I call and feel That as LOVE , but there is no I, so Advaita talk, there is no love either.
Thanks for this interesting paradoxal talk together, talking is for the ego.
edit spelling.
There is most certainly an I and also the emotion of love is real enough. Talking is talking.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 10:47:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Karl,
Keeping company with this world,
There are only flowing images on an impermanent river -
Silence has no center or boundaries -
Collapsed on a pinhead, the entire creation disappears -
The source is outpouring love and light.
Nice.
We witness flowing images bounded by time. Impermanence applies to things making up the universe, but not the universe itself. Everything else is entropic within the universe. Yet the universe persists because it is time itself and not bounded by time.
Silence is the abscence of sound so by implication it has no geometric centre, but it may still have boundaries.
Collapsed on a pinhead is not disappearance but contraction or reduction-there is an exercise in logical argument that asked the question 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin'.
The source of what ? If you mean by creation totality/the universe, then there is no source. There are causes and effects within the totality of the universe. Endless ripples.
This is to say things exist separate to you. They are prior to consciousness. It suits SI and meditation to treat everything as if it was an outpouring of subjective consciousness. So that in deep dreamless sleep all existence is extinguished and then everything manifests again on gaining consciousness. This is a kind of reordering. A loosening of thought and perception. It is neti neti-not this, not this and therefore negation of our direct perception.
In the SRM book- be as you are ( SRM being the most hardy advocate of SI) he describes this step as necessary :
Q So the world is not really illusory ?
A at the level of the spiritual seeker you have got to say the world is an illusion . There is no other way.when a man forgets he is Brahman , who is real, permanent and omipresent, and deludes himself into thinking that he is the body in the universe which is filled with bodies that are transitory , and labours under the delusion, you have to remind him that the world is untreated and a delusion. Why? Because his vision which has forgotten its own self is dwelling in the external, material universe. It will not turn inwards into introspection unless you impress on him that all this external, material universe is unreal. When once he realises his own self he will know that there is nothing other than his own self and will come to look on the whole universe as Brahman. There is no universe without the self . As long as a man does not see the self which is the origin of all, but looks only at the external world as real and permanent, you have to tell him that all this external universe is an illusion.
Now this is not clear to a seeker. It is not meant to be. A blind man cannot see until his eyes are made whole. Yet the eyes are already whole, but refuse to see. One must be declared blind at the beginning so that sight may begin again, even if this is somewhat a lie, it is the direct experience of the seeker. The I must first be known from the false I.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 11:59:47 AM
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| What is the use of well of water when all the land that surrounds it are in flood |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 1:03:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
What is the use of well of water when all the land that surrounds it are in flood
The well is fresh water, the floods are filthy run off tainted with dead animals, sewage and other nasties. Drink of the fresh water.
Did you get a taxi back here ?  |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 2:25:12 PM
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| I had already thought you may say that ,so here's another ,a man is troubled by a demon so he obtains a special mantra and powder to get rid of this demon he chants over the powder but before he finishes the demon says I have already gotten into the powder before the mantra had started. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 2:35:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
I had already thought you may say that ,so here's another ,a man is troubled by a demon so he obtains a special mantra and powder to get rid of this demon he chants over the powder but before he finishes the demon says I have already gotten into the powder before the mantra had started.
The man is ignorant. There are no demons and no special powder or mantra are necessary. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 2:55:29 PM
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| Your logic your words your explanations your play your leela are the demon the powder and the chants are your attachment to there use and your want to narrate these to others is your ego identifying with what you believe to be the self |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 3:05:22 PM
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Tough love Karl but love all the same
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 3:51:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Your logic your words your explanations your play your leela are the demon the powder and the chants are your attachment to there use and your want to narrate these to others is your ego identifying with what you believe to be the self
I am as I am. Why concern yourself with such things ?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 3:54:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Tough love Karl but love all the same
well, whatever it takes. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 4:20:16 PM
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| Forgive my intrusion , peace to you brother on your journey. |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 5:46:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
We witness flowing images bounded by time. Impermanence applies to things making up the universe, but not the universe itself. Everything else is entropic within the universe. Yet the universe persists because it is time itself and not bounded by time.
Silence is the abscence of sound so by implication it has no geometric centre, but it may still have boundaries.
Collapsed on a pinhead is not disappearance but contraction or reduction-there is an exercise in logical argument that asked the question 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin'.
The source of what ? If you mean by creation totality/the universe, then there is no source. There are causes and effects within the totality of the universe. Endless ripples.
This is to say things exist separate to you. They are prior to consciousness. It suits SI and meditation to treat everything as if it was an outpouring of subjective consciousness. So that in deep dreamless sleep all existence is extinguished and then everything manifests again on gaining consciousness. This is a kind of reordering. A loosening of thought and perception. It is neti neti-not this, not this and therefore negation of our direct perception.
Witty reply! A reply not to my writing, but to your take on it. How logical is that? Even if I accept your interpretation, we could argue ad infinitum: Is time real? Is space real? Is the universe real? Are we speaking here of "silence" as the absence of sound, or something else? Can the world "collapse"? Why do I write this as poetry? etc. (Could not argue about SMR and SI, as I do not know about them...)
You rightly point out that all this makes no sense. It is non-sense. I agree with you - it does not make sense from a rational viewpoint. It does make sense from another view point, not a logical view point, but a state of being.
Logic can take one only so far, and rational lucidity has sharp edges. What I am trying to say is that reason and logic are great tools in epistemological pursuits, but they are false friends when applied ubiquitously. Logic is meaningless from the viewpoint of life.
All this reminds me of a story told by Osho: A safari expedition set camp in a dangerous place. To protect themselves from the wild animals, they built a high fence around the camp, and dug a deep ditch around the fence. One evening, one of the members of the expedition, a famous professor of logic, went for a walk out of the camp. Suddenly, he was attacked by a lion. He had no gun, so he ran back to the camp and fell into the ditch, all the time with the lion right behind him. His friends heard the yelling and screaming, and they came to the fence, just to see the professor running around the camp, in the ditch, followed by the lion. "Watch out! The lion is getting closer!" they yelled. "That's all right," the professor yelled back. "I am one round ahead of him."
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You are exactly where you are supposed to be. All is well. But I dare to say that if you release these questions in silence - and move the silence ( and I assure you that "moving silence" is no metaphor), the answers will surprise you. |
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sunyata
USA
1513 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 5:58:21 PM
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| Amen Blanche |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 7:17:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Witty reply! A reply not to my writing, but to your take on it. How logical is that? Even if I accept your interpretation, we could argue ad infinitum: Is time real? Is space real? Is the universe real? Are we speaking here of "silence" as the absence of sound, or something else? Can the world "collapse"? Why do I write this as poetry? etc. (Could not argue about SMR and SI, as I do not know about them...)
You rightly point out that all this makes no sense. It is non-sense. I agree with you - it does not make sense from a rational viewpoint. It does make sense from another view point, not a logical view point, but a state of being.
Logic can take one only so far, and rational lucidity has sharp edges. What I am trying to say is that reason and logic are great tools in epistemological pursuits, but they are false friends when applied ubiquitously. Logic is meaningless from the viewpoint of life.
All this reminds me of a story told by Osho: A safari expedition set camp in a dangerous place. To protect themselves from the wild animals, they built a high fence around the camp, and dug a deep ditch around the fence. One evening, one of the members of the expedition, a famous professor of logic, went for a walk out of the camp. Suddenly, he was attacked by a lion. He had no gun, so he ran back to the camp and fell into the ditch, all the time with the lion right behind him. His friends heard the yelling and screaming, and they came to the fence, just to see the professor running around the camp, in the ditch, followed by the lion. "Watch out! The lion is getting closer!" they yelled. "That's all right," the professor yelled back. "I am one round ahead of him."
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You are exactly where you are supposed to be. All is well. But I dare to say that if you release these questions in silence - and move the silence ( and I assure you that "moving silence" is no metaphor), the answers will surprise you.
If you argue Blanche then you must make a claim that something is true or real. A thing is a thing.
Even your own beliefs/ arguments are governed by that very same logic that you are questioning. If you cannot know anything for certain, then how you can you claim you know what you know? You then disqualify yourself from further discussion by being unable to know anything with any certainty. How could I possibly take such a person seriously ?
So, now, if you are rational you must prove what you say is truth and real. You must put it terms I understand-in ditch digger English.
If you say 'moving silence' is this absence of sound, of thought, of energy. How, if it is absent can it be also moving ? Something that is absent cannot also possess the quality of movement. You see you are fighting reality by defying rational logic.
I would also be defying rational logic to argue you did not believe what you say. I agree with reality. A thing is a thing.
Logic is meaningless to a cat or a tree, that is certainly true. Man distinguishes himself from animals by the application of reason. It is what separates us from all other animals. It is not simply an arbitrary tool waved around on the surface of life, but the absolute nadir for a human animal. Logic is just a more refined facet of human reasoning. It is highly conscious reasoning, practised reasoning. It takes us from what is subjective and superstitious to what is true and real. Surely that is the very essence of enlightenment ?
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Edited by - karl on Jul 02 2015 10:35:15 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 9:56:25 PM
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Blanche!
Enticing, compelling, strong...Grrr...  |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2015 : 10:05:26 PM
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Nice Blanche, thank you!..."move the silence".
In this context that hits home for me. |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 09:18:01 AM
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 Sunyata |
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 09:52:31 AM
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Karl,
Are you saying that I am a fool when it comes to arguing? Because I agree with you. One of Ryokan's poems goes like this:
Last year: a fool.
This year: no change.
It is true for me.
As I said, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not arguing with you. When it comes to spiritual life, what is the point of replacing a set of intellectual beliefs with another set of intellectual beliefs? None.
Do I say that abiding inner silence is "this absence of sound, of thought, of energy?" Or you say so? You are practicing meditation for so long - you must know what I am talking about. Are you doing samyama? Because in samyama, you MOVE SILENCE. If you practice samyama, you know what I am talking about. If you don't, you may want to try it.
In spiritual life, there is "knowing" - having the information, and based on it one can have beliefs and arguments. And there is what I call "knowing without knowing" assimilated experience. Knowledge without the experience is incomprehensible. Without the assimilated experience, knowledge is food for the mind, that is, the mind uses this knowledge to strengthen the ego. The more one argues, the stronger the ego gets.
Why do you argue? Why such a cognitive complexity for something so simple? Maybe because you know that there is something else, something beyond the mind? Something infinite more powerful than the mind? Something that when arises will put the mind on the side-line?
Greetings to that infinite in you, my fellow traveler.
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Blanche
USA
873 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 09:55:41 AM
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Bodhi and BillinL.A.,
Bows to the silence in you |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 11:17:17 AM
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Blanche a millions thanks for going to the trouble of expressing your silence here.
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Karl,
Are you saying that I am a fool when it comes to arguing? Because I agree with you. One of Ryokan's poems goes like this:
Last year: a fool.
This year: no change.
It is true for me.
As I said, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not arguing with you. When it comes to spiritual life, what is the point of replacing a set of intellectual beliefs with another set of intellectual beliefs? None.
Do I say that abiding inner silence is "this absence of sound, of thought, of energy?" Or you say so? You are practicing meditation for so long - you must know what I am talking about. Are you doing samyama? Because in samyama, you MOVE SILENCE. If you practice samyama, you know what I am talking about. If you don't, you may want to try it.
In spiritual life, there is "knowing" - having the information, and based on it one can have beliefs and arguments. And there is what I call "knowing without knowing" assimilated experience. Knowledge without the experience is incomprehensible. Without the assimilated experience, knowledge is food for the mind, that is, the mind uses this knowledge to strengthen the ego. The more one argues, the stronger the ego gets.
Why do you argue? Why such a cognitive complexity for something so simple? Maybe because you know that there is something else, something beyond the mind? Something infinite more powerful than the mind? Something that when arises will put the mind on the side-line?
Greetings to that infinite in you, my fellow traveler.
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