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Originally posted by Blanche

Karl,

Are you saying that I am a fool when it comes to arguing? Because I agree with you. One of Ryokan's poems goes like this:

Last year: a fool.
This year: no change.

It is true for me.

As I said, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not arguing with you. When it comes to spiritual life, what is the point of replacing a set of intellectual beliefs with another set of intellectual beliefs? None.

Do I say that abiding inner silence is "this absence of sound, of thought, of energy?" Or you say so? You are practicing meditation for so long - you must know what I am talking about. Are you doing samyama? Because in samyama, you MOVE SILENCE. If you practice samyama, you know what I am talking about. If you don't, you may want to try it.

In spiritual life, there is "knowing" - having the information, and based on it one can have beliefs and arguments. And there is what I call "knowing without knowing" assimilated experience. Knowledge without the experience is incomprehensible. Without the assimilated experience, knowledge is food for the mind, that is, the mind uses this knowledge to strengthen the ego. The more one argues, the stronger the ego gets.

Why do you argue? Why such a cognitive complexity for something so simple? Maybe because you know that there is something else, something beyond the mind? Something infinite more powerful than the mind? Something that when arises will put the mind on the side-line?

Greetings to that infinite in you, my fellow traveler.

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Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

Hi everyone

Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.

The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.

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Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

It's not a problem Karl, just more productive to do our practices IMHO.

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Originally posted by BillinL.A.

Blanche a millions thanks for going to the trouble of expressing your silence here.

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Originally posted by karl
Did I say you were a fool ? No I didn't, neither did I infer it. I said if you begin an argument from the perspective that logic has no place, then you effectively disqualify yourself from the argument.

I'm not trying to win points in a discussion like a lawyer, I'm only interested in finding the truth of things. Sticking with reality, what is valid, proven and truth. Unless that is accomplished there is no point in any discussion and if you go knocking yourself out of the quest before we start by saying logic and reason are unnecessary, then we are left with pure intuition and emotion. They have never proven themselves accurate at very much at all.

You are making assumptions when you say 'I must know' or 'it's obvious'. I'm asking if you would be so kind as to define in concrete terms what you are saying. If you tell me you believe a square circle exists, or a moving stillness, then you need to define it, because it appears to me that these things are entirely in opposition and conflict.

This is not about what I can feel, imagine, create the scenery of, the story of. Those things I have already said are beyond investigation or proving. They are scenery, no more no less unless proof can be provided of their existence. If it cannot, then we can say they are not real, they conflict with reality.

You say there is a 'knowing' what you are really saying is that you just 'feel' it. Something just seems true. Yet you have not investigated if it is true. You are so certain that it is that you don't question it. Essentially this is the point of Self Inquiry. As I said, I don't think it's particularly a good method, but is effective. It is the refusal to test the limits of this 'knowing' that shows the false self remains in place.

You think in terms of simplicity but have made a cage out of a web of untested illusions, scenery and complex emotional twisting. simplicity has no 'knowing without knowing' or 'moving silence' or ' culmative experience' instead it is plain truth through rational logical questioning. Eventually a self generated fallacy can be spotted before it gets going. It is precisely what Yogani said would happened with the witness, except there is no need for this separatie witness anymore. It was an attachment. It vanishes when the false ego vanishes.

You talk as if the mind were separate to you. You are one. There is only the self. There is nothing more than the self, that's all there is. It is not a question of there being something more powerful or different. You already are as you are. You are the self there is nothing more. It sounds weird for me to say it, because I thought it was weird when SRM said it. It seemed to have some amazing cosmic significance at the time, some outer worldly power, but I see that it is not what he meant at all. He was specific, you are you, there is nothing else, you are the self.

Find the self. Dig for it. You will find everything else is false. I cannot stress it much more. If you want to call it preaching then fine, let it be that, calls it Karls false ego, Karl's delusion. Whatever you like. You are here as a seeker of truth. You have not asked me to lecture you, preach to you, but all the same we are here now and communicating. It would be crass of me to say 'follow this, follow that, this is the right way', I can only ask you to prove your own beliefs in the cold light of reasoning. If we cannot even get to that neutral ground, I can see I'm never going to be much good at this and I will do little more than cause friction.

I don't even know if it should matter, or does matter if you know these things or not, I don't know why it should. It feels like I'm shouting at a peach and saying 'ripen' over and over ike some demented lunatic , the peach will ripen in its own time, my shouting at it seems wasted effort, yet I'm compelled, driven to continue. Maybe then I still have some way to go, I expect so. 'A lot to learn has this one' ' strong with the force but careless with it and too eager. Enthusiastic but clumsy'

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Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

Hi everyone

Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.

The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.

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[i]Originally posted by Blanche[/i
Without the line in the middle,
the space is free
to drench us in unbounding love.

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Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

A good example of stillness in action is a hummingbird. The hummingbird beats its wings incredibly fast, yet the core of its body is remarkably still so that it can hover before a flower and drink the nectar easily. It's essentially two opposites existing simultaneously in one organism.

Logic and rationality are in favor of this phenomenon, as are emotion and intuition.

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Originally posted by Blanche

What can I say, Karl? I find this reply hysterically funny. Thank you.

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Originally posted by Blanche

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Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

Hi everyone

Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.

The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.

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Dear Blue Raincoat,

Welcome back! The world has more color with you here.

You are right - there is nothing to talk about, and more to do in yoga practice.

If I were the witness to this argument in private, I would have listened quietly. But there are many people reading here, in the forum, and once I read the thread I had to say something. Keeping quiet would have meant that I agreed with the position of pure logical reasoning as the path to enlightenment. The answers are beyond reasoning. I hope nobody believes me, but maybe someone reading this decides to read the lessons and follow the practice. The practice will bring the answers.

Without the line in the middle,
the space is free
to drench us in unbounding love.

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Originally posted by Charliedog

Hi Blue,

I missed you , nice to see you back

Love to you all

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Originally posted by Bodhi Tree


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that is an experience of subject-object union.

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Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

Well, I guess nothing of the material world is truly still, but even so, the material world is a reflection of stillness, so the only way we can come to the deepest reality of stillness is by learning from the surface-level illusion of material things. With the hummingbird, there is certainly an appearance of stillness, and that counts on the reality-discernment meter.

I was jamming tonight in a friend's garage, and we were singing harmonies together, and a beautiful girl was dancing to my beats. All this vibrant activity was happening, and yet I felt as if I was doing nothing. It just kind of flowed effortlessly, even during the improvisation. We also laughed a lot.

Is that stillness in action? How can I prove it to be true other than by subjectively describing the paradoxical sensations rolling across my perception?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that is an experience of subject-object union.

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Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

I love you guys.

Karl, there is a hug for you too. Not compulsory of course; you can have it if you want to.

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Originally posted by karl

LOL everyone except the heretic

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