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Curious1991
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 05 2015 : 3:25:15 PM
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Hello,
Approx 3 months ago, I began practicing self inquiry and soon after was able to understand that the "I" thought was nothing more than a thought. Upon this realization I felt a physical sensation, something like a quick jolt in my head and had a blissful period that lasted two days. This period was filled with stillness and I was able to separate myself from other attachments. I was surprised by this because prior the realization I had not been meditating for months so the chatter in my mind seemed to be at an all time high. And soon after practicing self inquiry, I was able to enter a state of stillness that months of meditation had not provided me yet.
Anyway after that, the I thought surfaced as I stopped the inquiry because for whatever reason I assumed that this stillness would stay with me forever but that was not the case and the "I" came back as strong as ever. Fast forward to these past 2 weeks I started reading this book by Robert Adams titled, "Silence of the Heart". Mr. Adams was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi and his book is yet another book that explains Advaita concepts and inquiry. However, because he is a westerner his explanations and guided inquiry questions have had quite an impact on me.
Reading this book was quite an experience. I have tapped into the same stillness that I experienced months ago except I am beginning to experience genuine dissociation. Not just understanding that I am not my body nor mind, but actually experiencing it. I'm sure many AYP users have been at this stage but for those who still have trouble wrapping their heads around the concepts, I would recommend this book.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 06 2015 : 04:35:00 AM
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2015 : 01:17:38 AM
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| You are everything |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2015 : 03:27:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curious1991
Hello,
Reading this book was quite an experience. I have tapped into the same stillness that I experienced months ago except I am beginning to experience genuine dissociation. Not just understanding that I am not my body nor mind, but actually experiencing it.
It can be really helpful to resonate with books that inspire you on your spiritual path. Just like reading true the lessons of Yogani. Enjoy.
Every day practice is needed for stable stillness. At a certain moment self-inquire happens spontaneously.
Thank you for sharing!  |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1571 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2015 : 08:26:28 AM
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Dear Curious
Sounds like good things are happening. I wanted to add that do not easily discard the effects of those months of meditation just because a moment in self enquiry brought you clarity and bliss. I would say it IS those months of meditation that brought you to that point. Both are important.
Sey |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 6:16:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curious1991
Hello,
Approx 3 months ago, I began practicing self inquiry and soon after was able to understand that the "I" thought was nothing more than a thought. Upon this realization I felt a physical sensation, something like a quick jolt in my head and had a blissful period that lasted two days. This period was filled with stillness and I was able to separate myself from other attachments. I was surprised by this because prior the realization I had not been meditating for months so the chatter in my mind seemed to be at an all time high. And soon after practicing self inquiry, I was able to enter a state of stillness that months of meditation had not provided me yet.
Anyway after that, the I thought surfaced as I stopped the inquiry because for whatever reason I assumed that this stillness would stay with me forever but that was not the case and the "I" came back as strong as ever. Fast forward to these past 2 weeks I started reading this book by Robert Adams titled, "Silence of the Heart". Mr. Adams was a devotee of Ramana Maharshi and his book is yet another book that explains Advaita concepts and inquiry. However, because he is a westerner his explanations and guided inquiry questions have had quite an impact on me.
Reading this book was quite an experience. I have tapped into the same stillness that I experienced months ago except I am beginning to experience genuine dissociation. Not just understanding that I am not my body nor mind, but actually experiencing it. I'm sure many AYP users have been at this stage but for those who still have trouble wrapping their heads around the concepts, I would recommend this book.
As long as you have a degree of stillness from practice then you are good to go. It is possible to do self inquiry directly, but it can be problematic, in that it is possible to get into a loop. Yogani calls it non-relational inquiry. It's worth having an awareness of that possibility. In self inquiry we are trying to stay in the 'I' and then the world seems unreal. There is a point where that unreality can become self reinforcing at a level which is unhelpful to progress.
I would say from experience, that you utilise only so much inquiry as to touch on that dissociation phase and then leave it alone and do plenty of grounding and some gentle self paced AYP meditation.
SRM has quite a brutal approach. He has the 'no pain, no gain' style. He goes for full on instability and dissociation. It's shock therapy really. He believes hard line dissociation is a precursor to realising the self. The false self/ego is incredibly seductive. It should be understood not as a separate to self, but as an outgrowth of self. There is no defined junction. It's like trying to separate nerve sensation from finger sensation. There is no actual separation as everything is one at the source. Self inquiry just first create a sense of separation before putting the world back together. It's possible to get stuck in the separation phase for a long time. It's worse than intellectualising unity, because at least one can remain functional in that state. Self inquiry can be Unpleasant if you aren't completely surrendered, or have a measure of stillness.
Don't confuse the stillness experienced during inquiry with that of the stillness which is present during AYP meditation, they are subtly different. Think of it as the pleasant after glow of exercise vs physical exhaustion. It isn't obvious. |
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Curious1991
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2015 : 2:58:47 PM
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Thanks everyone. I came to AYP the beginning of this year doing mantra meditation and knew nothing about yoga (and still don't) but found out about non dualism and it fascinated me. The general consensus from most seems to be that liberation is attained primarily through non dual practices of jnana yoga/self inquiry.
The book I mentioned (just realized it's on Yogani's book list as well) states that the reason why many have not achieved liberation is that they have not completely surrendered mentally to the external world around them. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that the advice directed to me is in regards to self pacing. Despite only meditating for months and starting up self inquiry, it is possible to achieve higher states of consciousness. However without proper self pacing, achieving these higher states may not be pleasurable but actually terrifying (i.e cases of dark night of the soul)?
The next book, I will purchase is the large easy lessons book volume 1 & the eight limbs of yoga, both by yogani. I am still unfamiliar with the other types of yoga because I figured self inquiry is a safer route towards enlightenment as opposed to kundalini.
Did you guys focus on self inquiry alone? If so how do you pace yourself while doing inquiry? Or is jnana yoga best practiced last after years of doing other types of yoga?
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Edited by - Curious1991 on Jun 12 2015 3:22:21 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2015 : 5:06:48 PM
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One thing to notice is that self-inquiry is not part of the AYP sitting routine (other than as an enhanced sutra in samyama: "I-thought, who am I?"). There is good reason for that. Self-inquiry as a standalone practice can turn into a mind game, and a denial of the world. It can become a battle against ego and mind, which is not in the direction of a full flowering of enlightenment.
Quite a few teachers use the language of self-inquiry to reinforce their belief that they are "enlightened" or "liberated". Real self-inquiry (relational) results in an outpouring of divine love, which has no limit, nor ceiling. Enlightenment is not a contest to see how detached we can become; enlightenment is a cultivation of divine qualities for the purpose of manifesting them into existence.
In my opinion, Walt Whitman was a true master of self-inquiry, and truly explored what the "Self" is, and can be. He walked the walk, and talked the talk. Self-inquiry was a byproduct of his willingness to live fully. He celebrated the flesh, the mind, and all of creation. He also saw beyond creation.
http://www.english.illinois.edu/map...man/song.htm
What has helped me is sticking with the daily practices, and then self-inquiry becomes more of an investigation and engagement with life, rather than an attempt to outsmart it. Plenty of teachers believe they have outsmarted life, but they have not, and never will. True surrender is just engaging with the flow until the very last breath. It's not complicated at all. It's just an adventure.
Go look at a flower, and inquire into its beauty. That is relational self-inquiry. Look at one of your co-workers and ask yourself how you can make their day a little better, and then release the impulse in stillness, without trying too hard to contrive or manufacture an action. Authentic self-inquiry will shape and mold the body to become a shining product of evolution. We are works in progress, co-creators, pieces of clay in the kiln of vibrant stillness.
Okay, enough waxing poetic. Best wishes on your journey.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2015 : 5:18:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
It should be understood not as a separate to self, but as an outgrowth of self. There is no defined junction. It's like trying to separate nerve sensation from finger sensation. There is no actual separation as everything is one at the source.
Boom! Like that.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2015 : 07:42:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curious1991
Thanks everyone. I came to AYP the beginning of this year doing mantra meditation and knew nothing about yoga (and still don't) but found out about non dualism and it fascinated me. The general consensus from most seems to be that liberation is attained primarily through non dual practices of jnana yoga/self inquiry.
The book I mentioned (just realized it's on Yogani's book list as well) states that the reason why many have not achieved liberation is that they have not completely surrendered mentally to the external world around them. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that the advice directed to me is in regards to self pacing. Despite only meditating for months and starting up self inquiry, it is possible to achieve higher states of consciousness. However without proper self pacing, achieving these higher states may not be pleasurable but actually terrifying (i.e cases of dark night of the soul)?
The next book, I will purchase is the large easy lessons book volume 1 & the eight limbs of yoga, both by yogani. I am still unfamiliar with the other types of yoga because I figured self inquiry is a safer route towards enlightenment as opposed to kundalini.
Did you guys focus on self inquiry alone? If so how do you pace yourself while doing inquiry? Or is jnana yoga best practiced last after years of doing other types of yoga?
Firstly you are liberated, that is your true state. It's not possible to achieve what you already are. It sounds cliched, but that is exactly how it is. In time it will become clear just how ridiculous it is to talk about liberation, enlightenment, true self etc, that you can't understand it, is because you don't want to understand it. You are rejecting it at all times by spinning tales about 'the journey', 'the path' and achieving liberation. However, you have to start from somewhere and that's where you start. If you didn't believe these lies, then you won't attempt to burn them. Thus it is that the match burns itself to nothing. To that which is begun there is nothing of what was started. There was never anything holding anyone back except a misplaced belief system.
It's a funny topic and open to a lot of contradiction and confusion. Essentially duality doesn't exist and we are all already self realised. That is our natural state, but we have built an ego/false self which, for reasons of undertaking self inquiry, has to be regarded as the dual self. It should be clear that there are not 2 selves.
The world you experience both outside and inside are filtered through this 'false self', but it's important to realise that this is not literal. As far as you are concerned the true self IS the false self. This should indicate how difficult this is to fix. Every action to eliminate the false self is fed through the false self. Imagine a liar asking a liar for the truth.
With self inquiry we are destabilising our world/self view. We are making ourselves doubt what we are experiencing. This is a kind of insanity. Insane people cannot tell reality from their own world view, they don't know what is real and what is imagined. With self inquiry we are deliberately, consciously trying to reach this schizoid world view. This is very strong medicine. You can see why this might lead to dangerous neurosis if an anchor of stillness is not present. You can easily tip over the edge and it isn't the greatest experience.
We are somewhat flying blind with self inquiry. Destabilising our present world view and then re-establishing the new 'normal' has to happen without any conscious hand on the steering yoke or clear view of the landscape ( I say normal, but that's just a phrase as we already are that, we have been trying hard to pretend we arent ). Self inquiry is a turbocharging of the AYP process. It is a rocket booster, but you really shouldn't ignite it until the unconscious guiding mechanism has some chance of keeping the whole thing straight. If no stillness has been encouraged, if there is no witness to lend a hand, then the booster will be out of control.
Self pacing isn't really applicable to self inquiry. Where meditation, SBP and sutras are quite controllable and reasonably gentle, self inquiry isn't. It is unregulated and the results can be spectactlurlarly unexpected. You can have a real problem bordering on insanity. It should not be suprising, if you spend your waking hours effectively telling yourself 'this isn't real, I'm not real' eventually you begin to believe it. Then dissociation occurs. If it has a rapid onset and far reaching it can be terrifying.
I know, no matter what advice is given here, you will ultimately have to decide for yourself. No one can tell you that you shouldn't blow your mind trying to deconstruct your head. You might be a fortunate and avoid every issue, but I suspect like most of us you aren't that blessed.
If it all goes wrong, then it's almost always recoverable unless you begin from a point of emotional instability. You might get a bit lost for a while and have trouble accepting reality. That can cause trouble in your own relationships to people. AYP is designed as a nice gentle process leading from one thing to the next. You aren't going fast enough to worry what you might hit. AYP is essentially self guiding, it navigates and steers as an integral part of the progressiion. That's why self pacing is so important. If you try and push too hard then warning flags appear-no such safety devices with self inquiry. By the time you have realised you are in trouble you are in deep trouble.
There is a tendency for those new to these practices to want to get into top gear and floor it. I did the same thing. I hallucinated that stillness was present and I was advanced enough to press the self inquiry turbo boost button. I didn't totally crash, but neither can I say I was in a good place. One boost was enough. I left it alone and went back to the standard practices with a new found respect for the power of these things. I even cut back to once a day meditation.
So take it easy is my advice. Less is really more. You get to the destination faster if you look after the vehicle, go slow enough to see all the turns and steer in good time. Crashing into a non relational wall or getting lost in a logic loop makes the process far slower and tougher. |
Edited by - karl on Jun 13 2015 08:00:17 AM |
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Curious1991
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2015 : 5:38:09 PM
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| thank you |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2015 : 10:41:34 AM
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quote:
In time it will become clear just how ridiculous it is to talk about liberation, enlightenment, true self etc, that you can't understand it, is because you don't want to understand it.
Great quote KARL, Theorizing the origin or the fall from Grace as it were it has also been thought / theorized here that not only not wanting to understand but basking in playful forgetfulness led to the state of complete forgetfulness as the tool called mind became habituated to this state.
This state can be considered like that of a drunken person there is no convincing them sometimes to get in a cab and go home.
It is believed that at the height of forgetfulness / misidentification / confusion reaches critical mass and something happens.
That something is seeking the way back home. Even if home is where we currently are the perceptions are so habituated as they are, that not only is it not recognized it has become impossible to recognize all at once and painful to attempt without inner silence / stillness current habituation of forgetfulness which leads to unwillingness.
We come from emptiness / stillness everything up till this point is expansion, at the point of furthest spreading out it seems a limit is reached and the gravity of the the whole once the energy of expansion is exhausted pulls everything back into stillness. The stillness however never was without presence. The Stillness is the unobservable void between the particles that make up matter and is the greater part of physicality.
Theorizing this is mental gymnastics though and can not do any good as even knowing the how and the why can not by the agency of tracing ones steps backwards deliver one home as that trail is cold and the bread crumbs laid down to find your way back have been eaten by the birds of forgetfullness.
Around the age of 15 was exposed to Ramana Maharishis books immediately loved this character and his simple message and it made a profound impact at that age there was just enough inherent stillness & witness to just barley grasp the very edge but the fingers slipped often.
Without sufficient inner silence making the attempt did open the mind to the facts but what do I I I I I do with the rest of this life now?
The only thing left was to come from a point of stillness as much as there was and approach life candidly and do the next right thing as you take 1 step after another, then the mind fearfully questioned and thought you are wasting your youth go out there and get involved and do the things of this age, or you may wind up old and regretful, so with reluctance as there was a disinterest in most things now this I did and the wine was not sweet and the supple hips of a beautiful woman while bedding her less than it should have been for the witness was always in play.
Who is this I that is doing all these things??? Who is this I that is not enjoying being young?
So unprepared as the tools of AYP were still being understood by Yogani himself in those days.
Who Am I? Who is this I that thinks this thought… I,i,i,i,i, i am interesting how iam of DM plays a part to stillness then Samyama, then Vichara, Self Inquiry from stillness.
Correct this understanding if it is off but when one abides in silence as the witness there seems to be little point in pursuing this who am i throughout the waking and non waking hours. It seems to be enough to do so during ones sitting routine and let the momentum of it all carry through till the next sitting.
Thanks to Yogani and AYP providing tools / practices, this is coming into focus and becoming doable.
Self Pacing
Asana
Self Pacing
Spinal Breathing with Bandhas and Mudras
Self Pacing
Deep Meditation Whole body Mudra tends to occur
Self Pacing
Samyama
Self Pacing
Self Inquiry
Rest afterwards sometimes lying down for a period of time.
Self Pacing
Self Pacing
Self Pacing
Amazingly straight forward & effective. |
Edited by - So-Hi on Jun 16 2015 11:00:38 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 16 2015 : 1:41:12 PM
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Yes, simple and effective just as it said on the tin. except the doer likes to mess with the instructions to fit his own agenda.
Self pace, self pace, ground, self pace. This is the discipline. Stillness can only come from doing less, less and eventually nothing. The key and lock arise together. One can fashion a beautiful, intricate and sublime key, but if the lock is not present, then what use is it to anyone the most important part of Yogani's teachings is to hide the most effective part within the most innocuous. We are so used to being busy, that we need the first part of the antidote which is the practice. It's all about balance.
It's easy to tell if the doer is present by asking who is the doer. That is essentially self inquiry, but it's useless for those who haven't had prior development. RM thought only of self inquiry as the tool for corrected reality because it has the effect of stoking the fire of ego to such raging inferno it consumes itself. It's tough love really. Take the addicted and feed him a thousand times his usual dose. What doesn't kill him will cure him. It suggests that RM believes an ego addict is next to useless and so has nothing to lose by blowing his mind completely. Of course those who asked him for advice were seekers and as such, they were treated as poor addicts. RM also gave a lot of conflicting statements which are apparent in conversations he had.
The eradication of the false self is a gradual thing. There will always be times when the false self becomes active. At these times the witness may be powerless. This has to be accepted. It is what it is. The addict gets a sniff of his favoured substance and gets off on a bender. The doer is present once again. Later on, established in the true self it can be seen as what it was. A mere aberration, a lapse, something still to work on. It's all learning. We learn by action, mental or physical, there is no other way. Eventually the doer is vanquished and we reside permanently within the true self. It is finished and we can rest, this is the sabbath. On that day we stop work and put away the tools, it becomes actionless action. Action in stillness. There is no doer and there can be no doing.
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Edited by - karl on Jun 16 2015 1:52:37 PM |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 08:57:26 AM
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quote:
RM also gave a lot of conflicting statements which are apparent in conversations he had.
Yes this was also noticed but was not paid much attention to. After all from his point of view it is certain it did not matter in the least if it made sense contradicted words spoken first or not.
The error was in others desire for him to be something he was not.
The ones doing the seeking could have just walked away with Who am i, who is this i that thinks these thoughts and would have had everything.
Instead they chose to be what they are not and ask questions so they got in return what he was not to fit the what they were not.
Not that it matters
quote:
The eradication of the false self is a gradual thing. There will always be times when the false self becomes active. At these times the witness may be powerless. This has to be accepted. It is what it is. The addict gets a sniff of his favoured substance and gets off on a bender. The doer is present once again. Later on, established in the true self it can be seen as what it was. A mere aberration, a lapse, something still to work on. It's all learning. We learn by action, mental or physical, there is no other way. Eventually the doer is vanquished and we reside permanently within the true self. It is finished and we can rest, this is the sabbath. On that day we stop work and put away the tools, it becomes actionless action. Action in stillness. There is no doer and there can be no doing.
Bravo well said. Let ya know when the tools have been dropped. |
Edited by - So-Hi on Jun 17 2015 09:38:44 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 10:24:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by So-Hi
quote:
RM also gave a lot of conflicting statements which are apparent in conversations he had.
Yes this was also noticed but was not paid much attention to. After all from his point of view it is certain it did not matter in the least if it made sense contradicted words spoken first or not.
The error was in others desire for him to be something he was not.
The ones doing the seeking could have just walked away with Who am i, who is this i that thinks these thoughts and would have had everything.
Instead they chose to be what they are not and ask questions so they got in return what he was not to fit the what they were not.
Not that it matters
quote:
The eradication of the false self is a gradual thing. There will always be times when the false self becomes active. At these times the witness may be powerless. This has to be accepted. It is what it is. The addict gets a sniff of his favoured substance and gets off on a bender. The doer is present once again. Later on, established in the true self it can be seen as what it was. A mere aberration, a lapse, something still to work on. It's all learning. We learn by action, mental or physical, there is no other way. Eventually the doer is vanquished and we reside permanently within the true self. It is finished and we can rest, this is the sabbath. On that day we stop work and put away the tools, it becomes actionless action. Action in stillness. There is no doer and there can be no doing.
Bravo well said. Let ya know when the tools have been dropped.
Well it only leaves three possibilities:
1. The transcripts are in error.
2. RM was logically incompetent.
3. RM was purposefully giving out conflicting statements.
It isn't possible to know these things precisely, but some of his statements are erroneous, as well as conflicting and they repeat several times. I would say his arguments were badly formed and fallacious. I don't believe this was deliberate. The underlying use of non relational self inquiry is also potentially toxic and is not a sensible approach to self realisation. I have revised my understanding of his ideology in recent months and though I don't think he was intentionally fraudulent, I do think he lacked rigour and occasionally winged it without fully realising what he was doing. It's necessary to have the rigour to self examine our own thesis, premesis and conclusions and I think he papered over some of the cracks to avoid doing so. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 12:08:15 PM
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Probably some of the first possibility and perhaps perhaps a 4th, perhaps the mind of this person functioned in such a way that made him unfit to teach?
My impression was always that he had a powerful origin story contributed a technique of self inquiry and if it was the one he himself engaged in then his mind was truly unfit or altered to such an extreme that cohabitation and even making sense to others probably was no longer an option for himself nor would he have likely cared.
In other words he himself was dry wood from childhood and caught fire swiftly, thus the odd life he lived from childhood.
quote:
The underlying use of non relational self inquiry is also potentially toxic and is not a sensible approach to self realisation.
Agree 100% Which is why AYP is such a wonderful happening for the world at large.
In personal practice Samyama is a delight after deep meditation followed with Who Am I self inquiry it digs pretty deep and can uproot a bit of ugliness, need to look over the AYP self inquiry lesson more carefull to avoid unneeded overload.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 2:56:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by So-Hi
Probably some of the first possibility and perhaps perhaps a 4th, perhaps the mind of this person functioned in such a way that made him unfit to teach?
My impression was always that he had a powerful origin story contributed a technique of self inquiry and if it was the one he himself engaged in then his mind was truly unfit or altered to such an extreme that cohabitation and even making sense to others probably was no longer an option for himself nor would he have likely cared.
In other words he himself was dry wood from childhood and caught fire swiftly, thus the odd life he lived from childhood.
quote:
The underlying use of non relational self inquiry is also potentially toxic and is not a sensible approach to self realisation.
Agree 100% Which is why AYP is such a wonderful happening for the world at large.
In personal practice Samyama is a delight after deep meditation followed with Who Am I self inquiry it digs pretty deep and can uproot a bit of ugliness, need to look over the AYP self inquiry lesson more carefull to avoid unneeded overload.
I think self inquiry is just rudimentary attempt at defining existence. Religion is generally based on the primacy of consciousness and it is here where we see self inquiry at work. RM does not directly or consistently answer questions regarding a supernatural being. In one conversation he says he does not believe in God but says he knows God . In others he is more obscure, but he never refutes the existence of a supernatural being called God.
It's easy to say he was doing this for a reason -maybe in order to avoid being classed as a heretic-but I suspect it was in order not to alienate his disciples and also because he had not logically disproven it. I think it was a grey area for RM so he glossed over it.
This does not mean we shouldn't take from him those things that are relevant to us, but we should be careful not to simply accept what he says at face value, particularly as he advises that we shouldn't. The Self inquiry method applies just as much to RMs words as it does to our own thoughts. we should apply it equally.
However this is not how I once saw it and firmly believed RM was speaking directly to me and was with me. In a sense that was true, his words were on paper and I absorbed his teachings, it is not surprising I would see him as a guide.
I think that Self inquiry must be included in the AYP tool box and with the appropriate warning that Yogani has already seen fit to apply. It would be crazy not to read RM in relation to his monological advocacy of self Inquiry.
As Yogani always says in the end the guru is in each of us. We have to figure it out. |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 3:32:41 PM
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| Agreed |
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