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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 04:33:16 AM
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For some time I was convinced that I stood in the middle, in balance, see both sides of the coin and know that it is one, like the yin-yang symbol. Me in the circumstances, I was the Witness, aware of everything happening, in and outside the body and mind. The seeing, the touching, the feeling, the thoughts, sensations, the speaking. Not involved.
It's gone now, it is just one, all is.
Suddenly there was the recognition that in balance is the line between two sides,
the line in the middle or the center is gone
Not in balance, not out of balance, just be.
Funny, it's like that gives space, freedom
Anybody who recognizes this?
 
ps thanks Jim |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 30 2015 05:12:15 AM |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 05:40:23 AM
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Ha, ha, Charliedog...
thank you. yes. was just thinking to myself: things are how they are. they don´t need "me" to think about them in order to be the way they are. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 06:10:31 AM
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I found this happened intermittently for several years. There was a switching back and forth like trying to tune in a TV. Picture. I can say that when the breakthrough happens it is like becoming suddenly very sober. Everything has immense clarity and solidity. A thing is a thing. For instance, a flower is no longer some poetic analogy, but a solid material entity with texture, colour, smell. It is noticed this way for the first time and it seems faintly funny to have imagined it some other way. If you have given up the drug of false self then you will know it. The phasing, and dulling that you hadn't noticed before will become apparent by its abscence. It's like buying a new pair of spectacles.
It might take a while so don't try and imagine this is so, you will know it the instant it becomes that way. You will be in Kansas because you are in Kansas and not imagining that you are |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 07:13:48 AM
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@ Ayiram, like opening the gate, let the me go, maybe the metafor of the breaking clay pot and the flowing out merging in the all.
@ Karl, what you say was already there, see it as it is, no concepts. But still there was a me observed by the Witness. 
A flower is a poetic mystic wonder, seen true the eyes of love 
Thank you both for sharing
edit:wording |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 30 2015 11:56:03 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 1:41:48 PM
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| For me it's love |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 2:56:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
A flower is a poetic mystic wonder, seen true the eyes of love
Amen, flower child.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 06:49:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
@ Karl, what you say was already there, see it as it is, no concepts. But still there was a me observed by the Witness.
A flower is a poetic mystic wonder, seen true the eyes of love
Thank you both for sharing
Well there is no duality, no 'me and the witness'. It is like an imaginary friend. It exists only at the locus of the false ego. Here I differentiate between false ego and ego, although this is only another example of the incorrect labelling of a false duality.
Within the mind there is an infinity, a dimensionless, timelessness that can hold onto multiple thoughts at the same time. In the mind duality, triality, and even multiverses can exist. They need no physics, logic or laws to sustain them. We are and are not these thoughts both at the same time. It is impossible to get rid of thought generation. All we can do is to is bring order and end the conflict between what is realities and what is imagined reality.
In the example of a flower. The miracle is in the flower and not in the poetic allusions ascribed to the flower through our emotional constructs of egoistic self. This is what the guru was trying to say when he said 'you hear the birdsong and do not see the bird'. We apply emotion to a mountain scene and it blinds us to what is really there.
Love is an emotion, underlying love what is there ? If we cannot see we are lost. We build fairy tale castles and statues, write sonnets, songs and odes to love, but it is only an emotion, it is not the underwriter of what is real and special. This reality is hard to grasp. It seems to be a harsh rendering of our inner selves, but it is actually the brash illusion we paint on reality that is the intruder. We have adorned where there is no necessity to adorn. We do not have to gild the lily. A flower is a miracle does not require anything at all, but plain sight. It is the same with ourselves. We don't need to be adding richness and various intrigues, we need no perfume or paint, we are right just as we are.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 12:23:57 PM
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kari, I see it in a slightly different way.
When you mash down many notes on a piano at the same time with your forearms, the resulting roar of notes contains, if you listen carefully, every song you've ever heard - and every song that could ever be heard. It's just a matter of directing your attention to a given set of notes in a given order. The notes are unchanging - they're all pre-struck - but your attention finds melodies; it finds change and complexity in an unchanging multiverse of options. The apparent movement is a projection of shifts of our own attention. All is still, but shifting attention animates.
Everything's like that. All notes are struck. We develop habits of focusing on certain melodies, and, as we do so, our world contracts. The body's one such contractive habit. The ego is another. There's nothing special about them (or wrong with them); they're just reinforced habits of attention - songs we sing. We eventually hunker down with a mere handful of songs, and long for the world to bring us fresh ones, better ones, happier ones. We curse our luck.
There are clues about this. We see, very plainly, how the world transforms when our attention shifts (via epiphany, or crisis, or romance or other strong emotion, or the ability of art/music/literature to coax us into hearing someone else's songs; i.e. make our attention shift like the artist shift theirs). A new song can transform our entire world....but we stubbornly assume the songs are received; that attention follows the world rather than vice versa. And silly yogis deem themselves saintly for trying to play a "better" song....when, again, the deeper truth is that every note's already been struck, and the songs are a side effect of the caprice of your curious, restless attention. We create them out of playful delight, so, just like in the movies, sad or horrific scenes are just part of the entertainment spectrum (but, as with any really immersive entertainment, we forget it was just for kicks, and take it way, way too seriously).
Residing in a mansion of infinite rooms, I've huddled in but one,
Ever rueful of limitation. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 01 2015 12:26:34 PM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 1:35:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
[quote]Within the mind there is an infinity, a dimensionless, timelessness that can hold onto multiple thoughts at the same time.
Karl,
I see the infinite not in the mind, I see the mind in the infinite. The infinite awareness is timeless, never born, never dies.
If you hear a birdsong and not see the bird IMO what is meant is, the senses let you experience the love and beauty and there is no need to analyze with the mind the word bird, see the picture of that for instance nightingale, thinking ah once at a romantic night I hear and saw the same etc. etc. just be one with the song. The song is the expression of love. Be one with it. All words are concepts, use a word and you create dualism. The only language which can describe the wonder of existence is the poetic, the mystic. When hearing and understanding mystic language, then you can leave concepts and go behind the mind with meditation on those words.
For me love is not an emotion, it is energy, power. We are an expression of love, divine love, and I do not mean conditional love (which is emotional).
When using words to describe what I am, what we are is.... to be or not to be....
awareness, nothing or all.
My feeling now is love perhaps your feeling is emptiness.
I like talking about this but it is difficult to find words, silence gives answers.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jul 01 2015 1:47:19 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 1:45:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
kari, I see it in a slightly different way.
When you mash down many notes on a piano at the same time with your forearms, the resulting roar of notes contains, if you listen carefully, every song you've ever heard - and every song that could ever be heard. It's just a matter of directing your attention to a given set of notes in a given order. The notes are unchanging - they're all pre-struck - but your attention finds melodies; it finds change and complexity in an unchanging multiverse of options. The apparent movement is a projection of shifts of our own attention. All is still, but shifting attention animates.
Everything's like that. All notes are struck. We develop habits of focusing on certain melodies, and, as we do so, our world contracts. The body's one such contractive habit. The ego is another. There's nothing special about them (or wrong with them); they're just reinforced habits of attention - songs we sing. We eventually hunker down with a mere handful of songs, and long for the world to bring us fresh ones, better ones, happier ones. We curse our luck.
There are clues about this. We see, very plainly, how the world transforms when our attention shifts (via epiphany, or crisis, or romance or other strong emotion, or the ability of art/music/literature to coax us into hearing someone else's songs; i.e. make our attention shift like the artist shift theirs). A new song can transform our entire world....but we stubbornly assume the songs are received; that attention follows the world rather than vice versa. And silly yogis deem themselves saintly for trying to play a "better" song....when, again, the deeper truth is that every note's already been struck, and the songs are a side effect of the caprice of your curious, restless attention. We create them out of playful delight, so, just like in the movies, sad or horrific scenes are just part of the entertainment spectrum (but, as with any really immersive entertainment, we forget it was just for kicks, and take it way, way too seriously).
Residing in a mansion of infinite rooms, I've huddled in but one,
Ever rueful of limitation.
If you mean music is entertainment then yes, of course it is. Im not sure what you mean by 'all the notes are already struck'. You seem to be implying that we are subjective consciousness or a version of that idea. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 1:50:16 PM
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| So many words ,so many ,twists and turns ,so many concepts dead end open doors ,so many so many and so on ,please live the life not theorise it ,oh and so many contradictions but that's enough for now or is as my movie my song may have just started or am I in the intermission or has my album been repressed re engaged you may get my point or does my point blunt your sense of knowing Iam not sure are you anyway peace and love to you all but only if the room your in have a light in it because if not you may be limited in what you see or you could light a match |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 1:57:07 PM
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Jquote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Within the mind there is an infinity, a dimensionless, timelessness that can hold onto multiple thoughts at the same time.
Karl,
I see the infinite not in the mind, I see the mind in the infinite. The infinite awareness is timeless, never born, never dies.
If you hear a birdsong and not see the bird IMO what is meant is, the senses let you experience the love and beauty and there is no need to analyze with the mind the word bird, see the picture of that for instance nightingale, thinking ah once at a romantic night I hear and saw the same etc. etc. just be one with the song. The song is the expression of love. Be one with it. All words are concepts, use a word and you create dualism. The only language which can describe the wonder of existence is the poetic, the mystic. When hearing and understanding mystic language, then you can leave concepts and go behind the mind with meditation on those words.
[quote]Love is an emotion, underlying love what is there ?
For me love is not an emotion, it is energy, power. We are an expression of love, divine love, and I do not mean conditional love (which is emotional).
When using words to describe what I am, what we are is.... to be or not to be....
awareness, nothing or all.
My feeling now is love perhaps your feeling is emptiness.
I like talking about this but it is difficult to find words, silence gives answers.
Well then you must define love. If you say it is energy then you must express that in terms I can understand. If you say love is the coalescing of universal energies into solid bodies then I can agree with you.
However, first note that you said love to you was 'not an emotion' and yet you end by saying 'my feeling is love' and I think we can agree that all feelings not associated with direct perceptual physical inputs through the nervous system are infact called emotions or feelings.
We both have emotions however I can tell you beyond any doubt at all that the universe was not created by emotions. Emotions came post consciousness and consciousness post universe.
I hate to burst your bubble at this point, but as this is the self inquiry forum I think I'm bound to point out the discrepancy between what is proven reality and what is elemental feeling. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 2:01:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
So many words ,so many ,twists and turns ,so many concepts dead end open doors ,so many so many and so on ,please live the life not theorise it ,oh and so many contradictions but that's enough for now or is as my movie my song may have just started or am I in the intermission or has my album been repressed re engaged you may get my point or does my point blunt your sense of knowing Iam not sure are you anyway peace and love to you all but only if the room your in have a light in it because if not you may be limited in what you see or you could light a match
I would summarise that as 'please let me sleep and dream'. I prefer not to disturb you but the house is on fire and we need you on the front lawn pronto |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 2:02:07 PM
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| Please can Karl and Jim get a room in the mansion of infinite rooms |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 2:07:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Please can Karl and Jim get a room in the mansion of infinite rooms
Kumar this is the part of the forum where duality is crushed into a singularity and false ego driven kicking and screaming from its hiding place
This is the cold, dark, logical part of the forum where unicorns and pots of gold are evaporated and only reality survives the test. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 2:17:21 PM
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Kumar, the description of 'nothing at all' can take many words
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 2:56:50 PM
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Ok Karl I will try to do.
quote:
Well then you must define love. If you say it is energy then you must express that in terms I can understand. If you say love is the coalescing of universal energies into solid bodies then I can agree with you.
However, first note that you said love to you was 'not an emotion' and yet you end by saying 'my feeling is love' and I think we can agree that all feelings not associated with direct perceptual physical inputs through the nervous system are infact called emotions or feelings.
We both have emotions however I can tell you beyond any doubt at all that the universe was not created by emotions. Emotions came post consciousness and consciousness post universe.
Agree with you so far, an emotional reaction is a feeling coming from a thought.
Conditional love is expecting something in return, so also emotional
Unconditional Love is expressing itself
That is all I can say
That is what we all are, but That is undefinable
What is the difference between Bhakti and Jnana.....
There is none...... |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 3:28:12 PM
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| Taxi |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 4:35:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
Ok Karl I will try to do.
quote:
Well then you must define love. If you say it is energy then you must express that in terms I can understand. If you say love is the coalescing of universal energies into solid bodies then I can agree with you.
However, first note that you said love to you was 'not an emotion' and yet you end by saying 'my feeling is love' and I think we can agree that all feelings not associated with direct perceptual physical inputs through the nervous system are infact called emotions or feelings.
We both have emotions however I can tell you beyond any doubt at all that the universe was not created by emotions. Emotions came post consciousness and consciousness post universe.
Agree with you so far, an emotional reaction is a feeling coming from a thought.
Conditional love is expecting something in return, so also emotional
Unconditional Love is expressing itself
That is all I can say
That is what we all are, but That is undefinable
What is the difference between Bhakti and Jnana.....
There is none......
So, we are agreed that love is a feeling and therefore an emotional response. Conditional love is therefore simply the emotional response from some action, or thought.
What then is unconditional love? It's still has to be a feeling and an emotion, it must also be related to an action or a thought. How then can it be unconditional ? It's entirely conditional on you being conscious and feeling it, or it wouldn't exist at all.
You say we are all 'unconditional love' but as I've shown, that means precisely nothing. We are manifest and most certainly conditional.
This is why I say you are confusing the infinity of the minds creative powers with concrete reality. Love is just another emotional input like sight, or smell. This does not in any way detract from the miracle of the universe, life, consciousness voluntary human intercourse, creativity, caring, empathy. These are all wonderous and mystical in plain sight without any mind induced attributes.
However, If you confuse one with the other the result will be conflict. As soon as you confront reality with that image created by the minds infinity there will be a schism. It's like thinking you are going to get a certain wonderful present and having the emotion of happiness at the prospect, only to be confronted with the stark reality of empty wrapping paper-for now there is suffering where once there was deep happiness and joy.
Duality is like a broken limb. The bone appears to be two bones at first, then as one bone when healing takes place.
Im not doing smilies I'm being an uber tough taskmaster tonight and you are in my dungeon
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Edited by - karl on Jul 01 2015 4:37:57 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 4:38:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Taxi
taxi for Kumar |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 5:00:23 PM
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| The problem Karl with all your words is this ,a pupil of a great master goes to learn all he can about levitation from another great sage when he returns he shows his own master that he can walk across the river on the water his own master looks at him and says why have you been away so long learning this trick as all I had to do was pay the ferry man two pennies to cross .you words are the trick but the simplicity in crossing transcending is very simple and doesn't take a book to tell or write .ah there's my taxi thank you and may your heart open to love I have for you. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 5:01:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
When you mash down many notes on a piano at the same time with your forearms, the resulting roar of notes contains, if you listen carefully, every song you've ever heard - and every song that could ever be heard. It's just a matter of directing your attention to a given set of notes in a given order. The notes are unchanging - they're all pre-struck - but your attention finds melodies; it finds change and complexity in an unchanging multiverse of options. The apparent movement is a projection of shifts of our own attention. All is still, but shifting attention animates.
Uncanny. I was writing a potential blog last night, and this is precisely the metaphor I used to describe how everything is already embedded in stillness, and that nothing is truly "created"...only uncovered and revealed.
Great minds think alike. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 5:18:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
The problem Karl with all your words is this ,a pupil of a great master goes to learn all he can about levitation from another great sage when he returns he shows his own master that he can walk across the river on the water his own master looks at him and says why have you been away so long learning this trick as all I had to do was pay the ferry man two pennies to cross .you words are the trick but the simplicity in crossing transcending is very simple and doesn't take a book to tell or write .ah there's my taxi thank you and may your heart open to love I have for you.
Student and master I see no difference. Each has something the other does not.
I have said there is no trick. Reality is reality it's as simple as that.
There you go, running off in that Taxi I just called you tchh. Ungrateful yogi.  |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 5:27:20 PM
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Edited by - kumar ul islam on Jul 01 2015 5:44:08 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 6:37:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Great minds think alike.
Fools seldom differ 
Part of learning basic logic is finding these alternative cliche exist.
Many hands make light work: too many cooks spoil the broth
being one of the many gems designed to remind logicians to keep their arguments free from such fallacies.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2015 : 6:38:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Did you get home OK ?
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Balance?
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