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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 1:45:04 PM
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Hello, this is my first post, so first I want to thank Yogani and the whole community for this great site! Second, I apologize for my poor english...
I am 45, male, have a family and a good job. Nothing special, I guess. 
I came to yoga 1 year ago because of painful joints, beeing lucky to meet an experienced hata yoga teacher who helped me a lot.
However, I soon felt attracted by the meditative side of yoga, which is not in the scope of my teacher's classes.
Surfing on some meditation resources it was kind of logical to find this site - and to start meditation by following the lessons.
According to the lessons, I expected a gentle start in meditation, more like a long walk with small but regular achievements (similar to what I experienced in the hata yoga practice).
Instead of that, after only some days of meditation twice a day, during the morning meditation I suddenly experienced lot of energy building up at the base of the spine and moving up to the forehead. My heart was beating very hard and fast. It was pleasant and scary at the same time. During the day I felt very powerful, and my spine and neck felt strong and straight. The same happened in the following 3-4 meditation sessions. After that, the energy faded away and meditation sessions became quiet again, although I still felt small energy flashes moving around in a smooth and pleasant way during meditation.
So far so good - I thought things were going well. Until 3 days ago, as I had this weird experience during morning and evening meditation: the tongue went spontaneously back and up to the palate, with the tip of it vibrating like it was attracted by something in the middle of the head. This scared me even more than the energy experience I wrote about. And most of all, my mood during the following days was awful, I felt angry and full of fears. Thank God, I feel better now, after 2 days of outdoor activities.
To be honest, at this stage I am scared. I am very attracted by meditation, and I really appeciate the open way of thinking of this site. But after these weird experiences in only 20 days of practice I wonder what could happen next. I read about scary kundalini experiences and damages, so I wonder if I am an a dangerous path. My family needs a healthy father...
I read about self-pacing, and this principle really makes sense to me. But since I only do meditation 20' twice a day, how should I apply self-pacing? Would 10' twice a day be appropriate? Or are my experiences just normal and nothing to worry about?
I will appreciate your help so I thank you in advance. |
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 5:15:31 PM
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Hello,
It sounds like you have had a been given a loud introduction to Yoga.
Cutting back and doing ten minutes twice a day sounds like a good idea. See how it goes from there -- you might need to cut back further, or do one session a day. The negative symptoms you describe should disappear, and not get worse, when you have self-paced enough.
If you haven't already read it, here is a lesson which sounds a lot like your situation: Suggestions for Over-Sensitive Meditators
All the best! |
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NoDogma
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 6:27:28 PM
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Ecdyonurus ,
Welcome to the forums and AYP.
Yes, self pacing is the answer. Please try reducing the practice time to the level you feel comfortable ; 10 min twice a day, even 5 min once a day. Let your system settle down and then increase slowly. For some, 2 hours is not a big deal and for others 10 min can be a lot. At the same time, even if 20 min might be a lot for you right now, sometime later it will become comfortable enough.
I am still in the beginning stages and having learnt my lesson, I reduce the practice every time I come across new tangible difference and then increase again. Am not sure if this is advisable but that's the pace I need to take.
I've a question though: do you ponder quite a bit about the practice and what effects you will get ? Thinking about it outside the practice was not good for me in the early days.
regards,
Savyasachi
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2013 : 7:18:29 PM
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Hi Ecdyonurus,
You mentioned that your tongue moved back and that it was a little scary. The tongue moving back on it's own is natural. I know when that happens to me it is going to be a good session.
Welcome to the forums. I know not everyone get's the big bang like you did but it settles down. No reason to fear, just self pace and you will be ok.
Take care,
Tom |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 02:40:23 AM
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Thank you everybody for your advice!
quote:
Originally posted by jonesboy
You mentioned that your tongue moved back and that it was a little scary. The tongue moving back on it's own is natural. I know when that happens to me it is going to be a good session. No reason to fear, just self pace and you will be ok.
Hi jonesboy, interesting to read that what scared me is considered normal and even a good sign by you!  So why do you recommend me to self-pace if this tongue thing is normal? Is it because it happens to soon in my case?
Thank you again!
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 02:46:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by NoDogma
Yes, self pacing is the answer. Please try reducing the practice time to the level you feel comfortable ; 10 min twice a day, even 5 min once a day. Let your system settle down and then increase slowly.
I've a question though: do you ponder quite a bit about the practice and what effects you will get ? Thinking about it outside the practice was not good for me in the early days.
Hi NoDogma, thank you for the clear advice on self-pacing!
To your question: yes, I ponder a lot during the day about it. If I understand you well, one should avoid it, is it right? May I ask you why?
Thank you again. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 02:49:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by woosa
Cutting back and doing ten minutes twice a day sounds like a good idea. See how it goes from there -- you might need to cut back further, or do one session a day. The negative symptoms you describe should disappear, and not get worse, when you have self-paced enough.
If you haven't already read it, here is a lesson which sounds a lot like your situation: Suggestions for Over-Sensitive Meditators
Hi Woosa, thank you for those clear instructions about self-pacing. I will read the lesson you suggested - thanks! |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 02:54:18 AM
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| make sure you rest (lying down) 10 min after meditation |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 11:39:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
So far so good - I thought things were going well. Until 3 days ago, as I had this weird experience during morning and evening meditation: the tongue went spontaneously back and up to the palate, with the tip of it vibrating like it was attracted by something in the middle of the head.
You just had a little dose of automatic yoga. Nothing to be afraid of. The tongue lifting to the top of the palate is actually a technique in AYP called kechari mudra:
http://www.aypsite.org/108.html
I use it from time to time, and it also happens automatically...seemingly involuntarily.
As the energy starts to flow up and down your spine (and beyond), Spinal Breathing is recommended to balance this flow:
http://www.aypsite.org/41.html
I believe Yogani recommends reducing your meditation sessions by 5-minute increments and seeing how you feel after that adjustment. I did that recently (going from to 25 minutes of Deep Meditation, to none at all for a couple weeks, and now back to 20 minutes). It's just a matter of fine-tuning and trusting your inner guru to guide you so that the trip is comfortable, stable, and enjoyable.
Just to reiterate, the location and manipulation of the spinal nerve is highly useful. In my experience, I've been able to distrube the energy evenly and dissolve blockages by playing with that nerve. It's a very playful thing. Not dangerous, just vibrant and alive and super-aware. So, spinal breathing is a great equalizer and means of control. Kind of like "taking the reins" on a horse ride, except your horse is your own spinal column, which is the super-highway of the nervous system, and incidentally, a microcosmic portal to the entire universe. Nothing major.
Godspeed on your path, and I once spent a week in Geneva, Switzerland, which was magical. Pristine. Nice to be connected across the world.  |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 3:23:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
make sure you rest (lying down) 10 min after meditation
Hi maheswari, thank you! |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2013 : 3:41:09 PM
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Hi Bodhi Tree, thank you for your suggestions.
You suggest that I introduce spinal breathing and at the same time reduce the duration of meditation, right?
Sorry if this a stupid question, but I understood from the lessons on spinal breathing that this practice can lead to even more enrgy moving, so I wonder if this would be appropriate for me, considering thet energy seems to already move by simply using the mantra.
And, yes, this worldwide connection is amazing.  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 04:31:22 AM
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Spinal Breathing can further stimulate the ecstatic conductivity, but it can also reduce an overflow by equally re-distributing, or "stretching out", the energy. Think of a rope that has knots tangled up in certain spots...once untied, the whole rope is more versatile and fluid. That's what SBP does--untie the knots. You'll just have to experiment. When in doubt, less is more.  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 10:41:25 AM
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quote:
So far so good - I thought things were going well. Until 3 days ago, as I had this weird experience during morning and evening meditation: the tongue went spontaneously back and up to the palate, with the tip of it vibrating like it was attracted by something in the middle of the head. This scared me even more than the energy experience I wrote about. And most of all, my mood during the following days was awful, I felt angry and full of fears. Thank God, I feel better now, after 2 days of outdoor activities.
To be honest, at this stage I am scared.
Hi Ecdyonurus,
This energetic experience is quite common. It is caused by the way the central channel is made up. Basically the main channel goes from the root chakra to the third eye- this being the one that we use for spinal breathing pranayama. Inside this is another energy channel which also begins at the root chakra but leaves the main channel around the throat and comes through the tip of the tongue. Inside this one again is another channel which leaves the central channel around the middle of the head and comes up through the crown chakra.
So when kundaini awakening happens, the strong flow of energy in the central channel (sushumna) can stimulate prana to flow through the other channels inside it. The drawing back of the tongue happens because the prana wants to be flowing in the same direction- upwards. So the tongue is drawn backwards and upwards to connect the enregy flows.
It is nothing to worry about- it just feels strange at first if we are not used to it. The mood swings that you were experiencing are more of a concern as that is a symptom of over-purification and it is best to follow the advice that others have given above on dealing with that.
Christi |
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Jack
United Kingdom
305 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 12:46:10 PM
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| Fascinating, Christi. I was aware of Sushumna Nadi.. Brahma Nadi made intuitive sense as soon as you mentioned it on retreat last month, and this nadi from root to tip of tongue that can want to pull back in line with brahma nadi, again makes intuitive sense at once. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 3:15:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Spinal Breathing can further stimulate the ecstatic conductivity, but it can also reduce an overflow by equally re-distributing, or "stretching out", the energy. Think of a rope that has knots tangled up in certain spots...once untied, the whole rope is more versatile and fluid. That's what SBP does--untie the knots. You'll just have to experiment. When in doubt, less is more.
Sounds clear - thank you! |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 3:41:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
[quote]
This energetic experience is quite common.
So when kundaini awakening happens, the strong flow of energy in the central channel (shushumna) can stimulate prana to flow through the other channels inside it. The drawing back of the tongue happens because the prana wants to be flowing in the same direction- upwards. So the tongue is drawn backwards and upwards to connect the enregy flows.
It is nothing to worry about- it just feels strange at first if we are not used to it. The mood swings that you were experiencing are more of a concern as that is a symptom of over-purification and it is best to follow the advice that others have given above on dealing with that.
Hi Christi, the way you explain the 3 channels is very clear (I hear about it for the first time).
If I understand you well, the fact that my tongue spontaneously moved up and back is due to kundalini moving up from the root. Right? If this is right, it means that my kundalini is already moving - and this only after some few weeks of simple mantra meditation!? . Or is it because I practiced hata yoga for one year !? Or is it just like it is?  Anyway, I wonder if I should consider that awakening kundalini in such an early stage can be a danger, and that I should avoid practices that tend to make it move even more. I mean, in the lessons I understood that first we need a strong foundation in meditation, and that kundalini awakening comes only after that in order to avoid imbalance - am I right? 
By the way, I remember that after my very first hata yoga class I also had a strong energetic experience which lasted for some days, but it was more a kind of smooth and pleasant whole-body-wellness state; in this first class I did only very basic restorative poses, probably because fhe teacher saw that I was in poor shape  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 4:17:15 PM
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Hi Ecdyonurus,
Yes, the tongue moving spontaneously is a sign of active kundalini. In fact any automatic yoga (kriya) is a sign of active kundalini.
What causes kundalini to stir is very complex. It usually happens when the subtle body reaches a certain level of purity. There are many things that can bring about this purity and certainly the hatha yoga that you did could have been a factor and the meditation too. But there are many other things such as physical exercise, sexual activity, good diet and so on which can play a role. Also some people are pretty much born wired for it to happen. Some would say this is because of spiritual work done in previous lives.
So it is possible that you are not in quite such an early stage as you think you are. Either way it is not important. If your meditation is pure enough to awaken kundalini without any pranayama then it is certainly strong enough to act as a support through the purification process. Meditation is necessary in order to establish dispassion (vairagya). Dispassion provides stability and equanimity during the highs and lows of the ecstatic journey.
But don't worry- there is plenty of time. Spiritual awakening is a long path which takes many years even after the awakening of kundalini. Some people begin meditation after the awakening of kundalini and have few or no problems at all.
So no, what you are doing is not dangerous. If I were you I would add 5 mins of Spinal Breathing as Bodhi recommended and see how you go. If it is too stimulating you can always cut back. As well as balancing out the prana, Spinal Breathing also provides direction for the energy, taking it along a safe and stable pathway, one which will give you a great deal of control later on.
Christi |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 4:51:23 PM
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Hi Christi, thank you again!
I will add 5 minutes of that pranayama and see what happens. In fact, spinal pranayama according to AYP is similar to a pranayama that I learned from my hata teacher (he also states that this basic pranayama is a very important one, even if he also teaches other more "technical challenging" pranayamas). Technically speaking, the main difference is that my teacher does not relate to any spinal nerve, he simply says to breathe in bottom>up and breathe out top>down. But I suppose that there is a major difference between practicing pranayama in a strict hata yoga context and using pranayama in an integrated session following AYP. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 5:12:51 PM
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Hi Ecdyonurus,
Yes, breathing from the root chakra to the third eye and back again, following the spine gives a higher level of control over the flow of prana, and therefore the direction of ascent of kundalini, than simply breathing up and down through the body. The Sanskrit word for the third eye is "ajna" which means "control".
In fact using a kriya (breathing practice involving the flow of consciousness within the subtle body) which simply goes from the bottom up and from the top down with the breath could be said to be unsafe and could explain why your awakening was so rapid.
For now I would stay with Spinal Breathing as described in AYP- letting it go if it proves not to be stable. In AYP there is a later stage practice where we do go from bottom to top (root to crown) and back down again with the breath but it is a very advanced practice and does not come in the lessons until lesson 198. There is a lot of preparation done before that stage and certain prerequisites that have to be met before taking the practice on.
Christi |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 5:29:18 PM
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Hi Christi,
In fact, my teacher does not refer to the head at all when he instructs "inhalation bottom>up". Actually, he speaks about the top of the lungs in the region of the collarbones. But it is true that my attention towards the end of the inhalation tends to spontaneously shift to the head, going straight upwards to the crown instead of remaining at the top of the lungs.
I just realized that I was not aware of this gap between the teacher's instructions and my own way of ending the inhalation at the crown! |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Jan 01 2014 : 7:29:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Spinal Breathing can further stimulate the ecstatic conductivity, but it can also reduce an overflow by equally re-distributing, or "stretching out", the energy. Think of a rope that has knots tangled up in certain spots...once untied, the whole rope is more versatile and fluid. That's what SBP does--untie the knots. You'll just have to experiment. When in doubt, less is more.
Good advice
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2014 : 06:02:27 AM
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Bodhi Tree and Christi,
This morning I followed your suggestion to add 5' of spinal pranayama. The pranayama itself was not special (felt very much like the pranayama I used to do before AYP). But it made a huge difference during meditation!
Meditation was very energetical but smooth. The whole trunk was like a piece of wood but also very relaxed - sounds like a paradox, but it was a great feeling of being alive and steady and strong and relaxed all at the same time.
The tongue went back and up spontaneously again, but it did not scare me (as it began going back, your words came to my mind and I felt safe).
I am aware that the real benefits will come on the long term, but I just wanted to let you know that I immediately felt a big positive impact of adding pranayama - ant thank you for that good advice! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2014 : 11:50:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
Bodhi Tree and Christi,
This morning I followed your suggestion to add 5' of spinal pranayama. The pranayama itself was not special (felt very much like the pranayama I used to do before AYP). But it made a huge difference during meditation!
Meditation was very energetical but smooth. The whole trunk was like a piece of wood but also very relaxed - sounds like a paradox, but it was a great feeling of being alive and steady and strong and relaxed all at the same time.
The tongue went back and up spontaneously again, but it did not scare me (as it began going back, your words came to my mind and I felt safe).
I am aware that the real benefits will come on the long term, but I just wanted to let you know that I immediately felt a big positive impact of adding pranayama - ant thank you for that good advice!
Hi Ecdyonorus,
That's great. Sounds like things are settling down with hopefully a smoother ride ahead. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2014 : 3:38:41 PM
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| Hi Christi, the second session with 5' spinal pranayama also was smooth and pleasant. Thank you again! |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2014 : 1:00:34 PM
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Bravo! What a trip, huh? The inner scenery is quite compelling, at times.  Skip, skip, skipping along the smooth surface of silence and bringing that silence to life. |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2014 : 2:28:07 PM
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Hi Bodhi Tree,
Yes, the scenery is very compelling! The lessons clearly state that one should not care about it and keep on following the mantra, but this part is not easy when the scenery becomes so... interesting (today, in morning meditation, my body was strongly shaking and I opend my eyes to check what was actually happening and I saw that in reality there was only very small body movement, more like ondulating on the heart beat). Also, it is a paradox that focusing on the mantra tends to enhance the scenery, and focusing on the scenery tends to stop it. Maybe I do something wrong but that is the way I experience it. Anyway, I beguin to experience the mantra being like a vehicle literally driving me through different sceneries deeper and deeper into a space that I still cannot understand. My main concern so far is/was to be not so scared by this path, and I feel better now that I got some good advice here ! |
Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Jan 03 2014 2:32:11 PM |
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Scary experiences
