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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 12:36:21 PM
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I always had a very short fuse. With my practice I have calmed down so much, that I had almost forgotten what anger really used to be like.
Then yesterday, my daughters were playing with the dog.. and I guess he was not having a good day.. so he turned around and snapped at my daughter.. and really bit her hard (did not break skin.. but was all black and blue).. She screamed so loud.. and for a few mins I saw a part of me that I had forgotten I had.. I yelled at the dog.. and send him out of the house. Later after I cooled down.. I could not believe I still had that in me. My poor dog.. he knows he has done something wrong.. so he sits and looks at me with sad eyes.. and I have hugged him a million times since.. but it tears my heart to know that I could snap like that any day.. I cannot explain how heavy my heart feels because of my action yesterday..
This is what I have been scared of.. not the anger part of it.. but slipping back into depression.. At the back of my head I always have a fear.. this silence is not real.. I am making a story and living it... I will slip back into depression any day.. and this time I will not be able to get out.. Yesterday was a confirmation of my fear.. it did not come as depression, but the other negative that I did not even remember I had.. Anger. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 15 2006 12:38:45 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 1:18:39 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Even big big gurus fall down after they have reached great heights. We can never expect to overcome these imperfections completely. Even enlightenment as yogani defines is "in the light"
quote:
There is a difference between enlightenment (in the light) and
perfection (always right). The first is real. The second is an
illusion.
Is there a relationship between enlightenment and rightness of
vision? Absolutely. But the act of perfect expression of the divine
is a process that can involve missteps along the way.
http://www.aypsite.org/260.html
So the imperfections can always come back to us. We become more immune to being affected by them though.
Also coming to your fear that "you are making a story and living it", that is a possibility in this path. We sometimes make a mental make-up that we are becoming better, no more anger, we are dealing with situations well etc... Especially when we think of yoga and god all day that can happen. Yes we are definitely becoming better but we really dont know how and where it is happening. I feel these nature/behavior changes are the ones that come in the last. Even if u see a vision or found a siddhi, you might not have yet overcome anger. We can see lot of guru examples for that.
My suggestion is to not to judge yourself w.r.t. perfection or change and just do practices as a daily routine. May be avoid thinking about yoga all the time too.
-Near
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 1:29:01 PM
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Hi Shweta !
Take courage to face your fear, laugh at it !
For me to face fear takes only one realization:
I am (and ayam) -
You are and you will always be.
How I am and how I will be - this changes, but I always will be.
How you are and how you will be - this changes, but you always will be.
The guru is in me and it is in you !
Love and Light
Wolfgang |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 1:34:25 PM
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| Depression is completely different than anger. There is no strength, internal or external, in depression. Depression is the absence of power; it's standing outside of your power. Anger is inhabiting your power and fully exercising your inner strength. I think your anger toward your dog was healthy, Shanti - he shouldn't have bitten your daughter, and whether or not he comprehended why he was being punished, the point is that you didn't shrink from the full expression of your power. There's nothing wrong with righteous anger - Jesus was furious with the traders in the temple. Lastly, dogs are famously manipulative in post-anger situations such as these, and will milk you for all you're worth if you're not careful. I'd advise not looking into your dog's eyes until the situation has passed. :) He's fine - really. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 5:17:33 PM
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Shweta,
I really like your post! Such honesty...you are greater than I am!
Of course everyone here wants to help you, because you're such a great soul, but I don't see it helpful for me to go into the supportive role here and tell you "don't worry". If you do something you wish you hadn't, then you should see to it that you don't do it again. Who cares how immersed in light you are if you still do things you hate?
Near (as well as Yogani) said that enlightenment isn't perfection, but I disagree. Anything less than perfection I won't personally accept as enlightenment, and I would hope that you wouldn't either, Shweta. I'm pretty sure that you, just like myself, seek enlightenment partly to enrich the goodness in life. I'm quite sure that real enlightenment does this!
So if you find yourself doing bad things, even though you feel peaceful, then stop doing the bad things. Only do good things! This is far more important than inner peace, because inner peace without expansion of peace is worthless in this world. It's like a person hoarding everything for themselves, stuffing everything they can get their hands on into their basement and hiding it from everyone else. Who likes someone like that? Who wants to be someone like that? I know I don't want to be that type of person. If I have inner peace, I want to share it...and that comes by living a good life.
Of course, your offense wasn't so bad at all. You yelled at your dog when it bit your child. You're not a bad person...but if you want to be the best person, then you should always think about what you're doing before you do it. I guess it would help to think, "Would a good/enlightened/peaceful person do this?" It'd be helpful to have a concept in your mind of what an ideal peaceful person acts like, and in every situation, see that you're acting that way.
Then the ideal and your rising inner silence will combine to create one great human being.
And also, if you're scared of your inner silence going away...well, good. Things come and go in this life. Peace can come and go, as you well know. Depression can come and go. But as Wolfgang said, "you will always be". There is tranquility and goodness in that, so don't worry about inner silence leaving you and depression coming to you, because they probably will...it's like death. There's no reason to worry about it because it's bound to happen. No matter what, there's no escaping it!
It's nice to have inner silence, and it's horrible being depressed. We all know that...but don't you know that aversion and attachment need to be let go of in order to attain enlightenment? So why be attached to spiritual things? These things are just as good as anything else in life. It's all impermanent, so it's best to let it all go.
Anyway, I'm in over my own head here. I hope this helps you in some way. |
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Yoda
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 6:31:14 PM
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Shanti,
Anger is a much maligned emotion.
When people don't feel that anger is appropriate... that's when they get stuck in depression. As long as you fantasize about gun shopping every so often, you won't have any problem with depression. There are so many bleeping idiots out there that you have to keep your edge sharp. Just watch a few primate documentaries--aggression is how we keep our territory ours. Your dog overstepped its bounds, simple as that.
-Yoda
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 11:10:05 PM
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Hi Shweta,
I agree with Wolfgang, face your fear and it will set you free. You know how to do it, (since we are both big fans), a little "Katie" should help, is it true that you will slip back into depression one day....or are you scared of the thought that you might? What's the worst that can happen, you know how to get yourself out of depression, you have done it before.
A little more Katie here too:
"Yesterday was a confirmation of my fear" is that absolutely true?
A lot of people who seem to be awake say that when enlightened that they still have all emotions, anger, sadness, etc., the only difference is that they do not attach to the thoughts, see them for what they are and choose how they would like to act.
Sounds reasonable to me!
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 11:20:54 PM
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Hi Scott,
quote:
Near (as well as Yogani) said that enlightenment isn't perfection, but I disagree. Anything less than perfection I won't personally accept as enlightenment, and I would hope that you wouldn't either, Shweta.
Maybe we will all find enlightenment when we see perfection in our mistakes?
quote:
I'm pretty sure that you, just like myself, seek enlightenment partly to enrich the goodness in life. I'm quite sure that real enlightenment does this!
To me, if the huge improvements in the quality of my life from all the meditation and practices I have done so far are any indication, I am quite sure too!
quote:
"Would a good/enlightened/peaceful person do this?" It'd be helpful to have a concept in your mind of what an ideal peaceful person acts like, and in every situation, see that you're acting that way.
To paraphrase some of the great sages: The idea of enlightenment is not acting in any particular way but just being, who can understand with thinking the no-mind of being? Not me that's for sure!
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2006 : 11:36:53 PM
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Anthem,
It's easy to think of what an enlightened person would probably be like. All you have to do is think about the nature of enlightenment itself. From what "they" say, it's when the mind isn't run amuck with the tendencies everyone generally has, such as lust, anger, greed, desire, etc. When the mind is established in its essential nature (meaning, nothing moving it)...pure being, etc...
Also, enlightenment is often referred to as "no-self". I'm only speculating here, since I'm completely unenlightened, but I think that means there's no thought that happens, such as "I'm doing this".
With all this in mind, it could be said that enlightenment is just "pure experience"...yet the enlightened obviously still act in this world. So take all of what's been said about enlightenment, and think about what that enlightened person would most likely do.
Most likely, they wouldn't be lustful, angry, greedy, desirous, etc. They most likely wouldn't be egotistical. They would most likely be very peaceful. No matter what happens, the way they are doesn't change, because the latent impressions in the mind is what causes reaction. They have no latent impressions anymore.
So it's easy to see how an enlightened person is. Even the most non-spiritual people understand it when they hear tales about the Buddha, or other truly enlightened people. They think of a person who is very tranquil, peaceful and wise.
These things can be known, unlike enlightenment itself, which must be "experienced". |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 12:39:41 AM
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Meg said:
I think your anger toward your dog was healthy, Shanti - he shouldn't have bitten your daughter, and whether or not he comprehended why he was being punished
Agreement with Meg, except stronger -- this was the best way to teach your dog an important lesson, and your dog comprehended it, largely because of the immediacy of your response.
Don't waste any time giving yourself grief or misery over this. Just take a lesson from your dog -- get over it, move on, and get back to loving.
Arf! Arf!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 01:48:10 AM
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You're a human being. Whether your reaction is "right" or "wrong", you're stuck with at least some amount of anger for the duration. You don't extinguish it (the goal is not to be Mr. Spock), but you naturally begin to detach from it.
Bearing in mind that your original angry impulse was sharp and real and present (natural, a mom protecting her child), in the moments immediately after that first snap:
Did you witness your anger more than before? Was it like you were watching a third person be mad?
Did you recover faster/smoother than before? Did it have less "hold" on you? Did it seem less substantial, and more a sort of overlay?
I'm betting the answer to both is "yes". If so, things are going great. If not, you'll be noticing both happening very soon. Don't judge. Just practice.
One's silence, by the way, is completely and absolutely immutable. It's always there beneath and around everything, silently observing. It's what witnesses stuff like this (and it always does, whether you identify with that witnessing or not!). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 16 2006 01:55:02 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 10:09:15 AM
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Thanks All.. you guys are awesome..
Jim.. yes, both my answers were yes.. I got over it real quick.. it was like watching from the outside... you always know exactly what to say..
Right David, learn from the dog.. and get over it. What would I do without you..
Meg, I did stop looking at his eyes.. and then he did stop staring at me .. gosh!!! did not know a dog could make me feel so guilty.. of course the family did not help much either..
Andrew, thanks.. I will Katie it.. wonder why I did not think of that.
Yoda "When people don't feel that anger is appropriate... that's when they get stuck in depression. " Never looked at depression that way.. interesting.. I thought I was depressed all the time because I was angry all the time.. about everything.. Hummmm...
"As long as you fantasize about gun shopping every so often, you won't have any problem with depression".. Wooohhhh!!!!! don't know about that one..
Thanks Scott "It's nice to have inner silence, and it's horrible being depressed. We all know that...but don't you know that aversion and attachment need to be let go of in order to attain enlightenment? So why be attached to spiritual things? These things are just as good as anything else in life. It's all impermanent, so it's best to let it all go." .. need to be reminded of these things once in a while.
Thanks Wolfgang.."How I am and how I will be - this changes, but I always will be.
How you are and how you will be - this changes, but you always will be.
The guru is in me and it is in you !".. that is beautiful.. Thank you..
Thank you Near. "So the imperfections can always come back to us. We become more immune to being affected by them though"... yes this was the lesson in all of this..
Life has a weird way to teach us something every day of our lives.. if only we are open to learn it and accept it.
Thank you.. everyone..
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Edited by - Shanti on Jul 16 2006 10:09:38 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 11:32:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I got over it real quick.. it was like watching from the outside
Then, don't worry too much about depression.
Per my postings on depression, depression occurs when one gathers little wisps of pain and disappointment and spins them (like a bird building a nest from twigs) into a horrific cyclone of crippling depression.
Since you've developed your witness to the point where you see the insubstantiality of these tendencies, you'll notice the wisp-gathering before they aggregate into hurricaine strength. You'll meditate and the wisps will be gone. A "clear" button (like on a calculator)! And you'll start to notice the pattern between meditation practices, so whereas in the past it seemed like your woes were accummulating, you'll see that you are actively doing the compiling. And you'll just giggle.
Again, none of this has to do with silence. Your silence was there before you started practices. You just hadn't learned to identify with it. You had layers of mud insulating you from it and noise drowning out its call. Just don't stop practices, or the mud and noise and non-identification quickly recur. Stopping is bad. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 16 2006 11:34:09 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 4:17:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Meg said:
I think your anger toward your dog was healthy, Shanti - he shouldn't have bitten your daughter, and whether or not he comprehended why he was being punished
Agreement with Meg, except stronger -- this was the best way to teach your dog an important lesson, and your dog comprehended it, largely because of the immediacy of your response.
Don't waste any time giving yourself grief or misery over this. Just take a lesson from your dog -- get over it, move on, and get back to loving.
Arf! Arf!
BTW, Shanti, I am totally serious that this was the right thing to do -- I'm not just being nice to you.
Some people might accuse me of stereotyping, but dogs basically don't understand English! ( or any other human vocal language). But, (and I'm sorry if this sounds condescending to dogs) they are fantastic at picking up the meaning of human 'body language' cues, such as being yelled at and kicked out of the house immediately after doing something very bad.
What I am saying is that, even if you had been 'enlightened' and free from anger, the best thing to do at that time would still have been to yell at the dog and kick it out of the house. The dog had to learn an important lesson, and needed some 'tough love', not idiot-compassion.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 16 2006 6:36:29 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 4:28:49 PM
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Thanks David..
You, and say something just to be nice to me...
I know you were serious.. and I feel I did do the right thing.. this post was more because.. I was shocked to see the side of me I had forgotten I had.. the flash anger that took over me.. it just took me by surprise.. that is what had me worried.. not so much because I yelled at the dog, or kicked him out of the house.. or that SPCA may read this and lock me up or something.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 16 2006 5:01:10 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 6:34:03 PM
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Fortunately the center of gravity of the SPCA is probably on your side. Animal-rights groups do attract extremists though, but the more extremist people tend to gravitate towards the more extremist groups, which the SPCA is not. I am sure there are people who would lock you up for this, but fortunately, we deter them by locking them up if they do.
I know you were joking about the SPCA. Just blabbing here.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 16 2006 6:34:50 PM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2006 : 11:14:58 PM
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Hey Shanti,
Now that everyone has said everything, and I got a late ticket, when you're at the stage of getting into hi-charge emotional to-dos with the fauna around you, the SPCA looks out more for you than the dog.
That makes us the SPCA here. But give your dog a kiss from me anyway... after blindfolding him. I don't want to get manipulated. |
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2006 : 09:48:33 AM
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hi shanthi,
From the incident you described, you are perfectly normal. the anger you had was not a "forgotten" part of you nor it was a "precursor to get you back into depression". you had a natural reaction to that incident, like Jim said your silence is still there and it does not "go away". when you feel a silence in you it is always real because mind always has the habit of wandering it is never stable. even if you build a story in your mind that you have inner silence, unless it is real it will not last long, not even a day. your silence is real and fear about depression is an illusion, i bet it would not have lasted even in an hour in your mind.
i will tell you an interesting story from Mahabharatha i read in a magazine. Sage Vyasa had a son called Sughar. Ved Vyasa himself was a great sage who has realized the Brahman. Sughar was still more greater in sense he was always in the state of Brahman conciousness. It so happened that Sughar died one day and they were performing last rites for him and Sage Vyasa was crying, screaming in an unconsolable way. The last rites was also attended by Lord Krishna and his friend Arjuna. Arjuna was very much surprised to see Sage Vyasa crying like that. He asked Krishna that why Vyasa is crying so much even after realizing the Brahman and knowing that this is world is ethereal and having so much knowledge about the Brahman itself. For that Lord Krishna replied that Those who have Knowledge, will have Ignorance; Those who have Calmness, will have Turbulence because it is like the Brahman having Maya and Sage Vyasa though having realized Brahman is crying out of love for his son, his compassion towards his son.
So Shanthi, there is nothing to worry if you get angry at something you have to get angry. These things always happen.
P.S. Those who know the above story well, kindly forgive me if I had given any of the information wrong. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2006 : 10:36:24 AM
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Anthem, Shanti,
What/Who is 'Katie' ? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2006 : 10:42:11 AM
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Byron Katie is the author of the book "Loving What is". her system is call "The Work".. Andrew and I are big fans.. we call the process Katie-ing it
Thanks Satyan.. I guess that is why it is said.. in this path everything changes and yet nothing really does.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 17 2006 10:44:34 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2006 : 10:47:00 AM
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Hi Sadhak,
Byron Katie (Katie for short) is the author of a book called "Loving What is" which describes a highly effective technique for self-enquiry called "the work". By employing "the work", which are a series of questions you ask yourself, we are able to see the truth of things and gain freedom from the troublesome issues in our lives.
It was originally recommended by Yogani (thank you) and several of us here have read it and found it to be life changing.
A |
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Babaly
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2006 : 10:00:27 PM
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Hi Shanti,
I don't know if we are meant to become 'inhuman' as we get closer to enlightenment. This was your daughter!!! I would have been concerned if you didn't yell at your dog:-)
Also, I remember after shaktipat.... I had been in such bliss for about 3 months and then something happened that upset me and I was shocked that my feelings came back so strong. It scared me... but I found that the shakti has her own wisdom.
It's a long and winding road... the one to enlightenment ........
I hear:-) .. so, maybe certain feelings will come up.
I know for me lately I have been experiencing a lot of sadness and anger... I know for me it's just cleaning house... but it's surprizing after feeling so good to go down again.....
What I am learning is that the cleaner I get the higher I can go. I am starting to find my own way of self-pacing and that is helping me balance as well... if left to my own bhakti I'd be burnt to a crisp:-)
Anyway, don't worry, trust the Divine within you... she is safely bringing you home.
Babaly
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2006 : 12:21:22 AM
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I agree it was the right response. If we pretend we don't have anger it can build up in us, or store in our bodies and cause problems. For instance, if you feel little bits of anger and ignore them, thinking it's bad, then sometimes we will over-react to an anger stimulus. It's possible that may have happened in this case. You may have felt guilty because you may have acted more angry than the situation warranted. but that's OK, because you expressed your anger, which is correct. you may have thrown off a little energy from a previous anger too, which is good.
So we need to always feel our feelings so they don't store for later. |
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Hairkhan
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2006 : 5:59:36 PM
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Shanti Mother,
It seems it is natural for us when seek such a lofty Goal to pay attention to our faults rather than how far we have come (which can sometimes be difficult to see). But brushes with being human can really be humbling, no?
I thought that I was too far along on the path to succomb to such things, but myself was visited by a deep depression last year. The irony was that it followed a period of speedy progress. It was very humbling, to say the least. I read that until all karmas are exhuasted, we can be tripped up when we least expect it. It is why as one poster said, even advanced yogis sometimes fall from the path.
I have read many of your posts, and am impressed with the depth of your knowledge and being. It seems we must always remain vigilant; as Shankara said, the spiritual path is like treading on the edge of a razor. But you seem to me to be a lotus flower atop the muddy waters of the world.
I bow to you!
hairakhan |
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bipinjoshi
India
30 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 05:55:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I always had a very short fuse. With my practice I have calmed down so much, that I had almost forgotten what anger really used to be like.
Then yesterday, my daughters were playing with the dog.. and I guess he was not having a good day.. so he turned around and snapped at my daughter.. and really bit her hard (did not break skin.. but was all black and blue).. She screamed so loud.. and for a few mins I saw a part of me that I had forgotten I had.. I yelled at the dog.. and send him out of the house. Later after I cooled down.. I could not believe I still had that in me. My poor dog.. he knows he has done something wrong.. so he sits and looks at me with sad eyes.. and I have hugged him a million times since.. but it tears my heart to know that I could snap like that any day.. I cannot explain how heavy my heart feels because of my action yesterday..
This is what I have been scared of.. not the anger part of it.. but slipping back into depression.. At the back of my head I always have a fear.. this silence is not real.. I am making a story and living it... I will slip back into depression any day.. and this time I will not be able to get out.. Yesterday was a confirmation of my fear.. it did not come as depression, but the other negative that I did not even remember I had.. Anger.
The six emenies will not leave us so easily. I posted a story about them on my blog. The story goes like this...
Once upon a time there was a fighter named Sherjung. He was famous for his battles with Tigers, Lions and Panthers! These deadly animals used to become like sheep in front this giant fighter. A king of some country came to know about his power and challenged him to combat against his adopted Tiger. Sherjung accepted the challenge. The battle was really tough one. The animal caused serious wounds to Sherjung and he was very exhausted. However, with his experience of handling such wild animals he somehow managed to kill the tiger. Though he won the fight he was looser in fact because the wounds almost made him paralyzed. He could hardly walk out of the ring and collapsed. The King requested his vaidya (a person curing patients with the help of Ayurveda) to take care of this great warrior. The vaidya adviced him to introspect himself and find the six most dangerous animals...
The complete story can be read at http://www.bipinjoshi.com/displayth...&threadid=42
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2006 : 10:40:39 AM
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Hi Bipin,
Thanks for sharing. This story is very similar to Chapter 6 in "Autobiography of a Yogi", about the Tiger Swami? http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Autob...gi/Chapter_6
When Paramahansa Yogananda asked Tiger swami "Do you think, revered swami, that I could ever fight tigers?" Tiger swami replied "Yes, but there are many kinds of tigers; some roam in jungles of human desires. No spiritual benefit accrues by knocking beasts unconscious. Rather be victor over the inner prowlers." |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 20 2006 10:50:38 AM |
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Ever Doubt your Inner Silence?
