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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 07:45:43 AM
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They say enlightenment means being fully in the present moment, and practising non-attachment.
Animals and plants obviously are in the present moment with absolutely no worry about the future. They face situations as and when they arise. In slaughter houses you can see animals sitting calmly when their friends are being killed before their eyes.
If you see shows on wild animals on TV you will see that animals such as buffalo fiercely protect their offsprings, but when a lion has caught it, they walk away without taking revenge. These buffaloes do their duty and with absolute non attachment. Aren't they enlightened?
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 09:06:40 AM
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Good question Maximus
The difference is, plants, trees and animals in varying degrees are not consciously in the present moment.
It is through working through our fears and bringing what is in our unconscious into consciousness and becoming aware, that we become enlightened.
We may end up in a similar state as the tree but we have the conscious awareness of it. The cultivation of inner silence allows us to witness this in consciousness.
My 2 cents |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 09:49:15 AM
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They say enlightenment means being fully in the present moment, and practising non-attachment.
That's part of what it is to be an enlightened human being, but never the full story. As for the animals, since they have entirely different nervous systems to us, they probably shouldn't be categorized as enlightened or not. It's like, say, trying to place them on the human political spectrum. 
but when a lion has caught it, they walk away without taking revenge.
The buffalo has no evolutionary impetus to take revenge; if you think about it, the buffalo will gain nothing from it. It would be like us trying to take revenge on lightening or weather. We certainly had a lot of evolutionary impetus for revenge, but we intend to move on to better things. The Buffalo's state is not an achievement relative to ours. It hasn't surmounted the challenges, it just hasn't taken them up.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 21 2006 10:14:20 AM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 11:07:15 AM
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very good reply sparkle.
Maximus, It is really the consciousness that makes the difference between an animal and a human. Animals just act on their instincts, unconscious and less planned. They dont have much of a mind to fight with in the first place. These feelings, desires, attachment are all produced from the mind and consciousness. And overcoming these or learning to deal with these can produce higher states for our consciousness. Remember it is only a man who has the potential to expand his consciousness to the whole universe.
-Near |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 11:49:16 AM
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Luckily we don't have the conclusion here that animals are enlightened. Otherwise I can speed up your enlightenment by striking hard on your head; or by doing a real brain-surgery to peel away part of your brains.
quote:
Remember it is only a man who has the potential to expand his consciousness to the whole universe.
btw, What do we mean by "expanding consciousness to the whole universe"? To be able to aware of (each and every events of) the whole universe?? Or just a subjective feeling?? I don't think anyone can know (for me, the only indicator of the vague term "aware of") everything in the universe. Not even close to that, although many people believe that they become God..... |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jul 21 2006 11:51:38 AM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 8:41:04 PM
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Maximus,
I can only say that I see Animals and Plants respondvery definity to higher consciousness. And by the latter, I mean they are drawn to people or places that are perceived as 'positive'.
Also, every now and then you see an animal or plant exhibiting traits that seem to break out of the mere 'instinctive' response.
Thirdly, channeling through them always brings out higher feelings and thoughts in most. They seem to help us get in touch with our higher selves.
C'est tout. |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2006 : 11:42:45 PM
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Maximus,
Your question is actually one of the most famous of Zen Koans. It is usually phrased as, "Does a dog have Budda Nature?" Another famous one is, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
Koans are objects of meditation. I suspect that any rational answer is not the "correct" one but that seeking the answer is meant to "break open" your mind.
To get the most benefit from your question don't ask us, keep asking yourself, even if you think you've found the answer. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2006 : 11:01:26 PM
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I have to differ from Sparkle on one point. I think animals are very much in the moment. They have much less imagination than we do to take them out of it. Some lower animals only have the reptilian part of the brain that is for eating, breathing, sleeping. higher animals have the paleomammalian part like dogs, and can form heirarchies and train their young. Only people and higher animals have the neomammalian part that allows us to "see the big picture", that is make associations, imagine and build things. But a disadvantage of that is we spend a lot of time out of the moment imagining things, and we have a mechanism that makes us ignore a lot of input because it is too much to analyze.
Animals see a lot more detail than we do, and can remember more complex visual input because they don't analyze it. I don't believe they have the ability to commune with God, but they naturally live in a state that is more enlightened because they never lost the "garden of eden" mentality which is no analysis. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2006 : 11:47:06 PM
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Agreed. That's consistent with my point that the animals have simply not taken up certain challenges that we have. And their not having taken them up, should not be confused with their having surmounted them.
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2006 : 03:38:02 AM
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With regards to power to analyzing things, Etherfish said "But a disadvantage of that is we spend a lot of time out of the moment imagining things, and we have a mechanism that makes us ignore a lot of input because it is too much to analyze. "
I think young babies also live in animal kinda mentality without too much analysis. That's the reason a baby has got the ability to learn any language in the world. They don't analyze the sounds but just grasp them. I think adults lose the ability to learn a new language because they analyze the sounds they hear. This habit becomes so deeply engraved to the point we call adult brains have 'lost' the ability to learn a language as easily a child does.
David, you said
"That's consistent with my point that the animals have simply not taken up certain challenges that we have. And their not having taken them up, should not be confused with their having surmounted them."
But why did we have challenges either? Is it because of a more evolved brain? But evolution theory suggests that it is challenges and struggle for survival that cause the brain to evolve. Your theory suggests that to start with we were given an advanced brain and we are using yoga to learn to cope up to live peacefully with an advanced piece of equipment that keeps buzzing all the time. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2006 : 06:27:51 AM
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Hi Ether
you said:
I have to differ from Sparkle on one point. I think animals are very much in the moment.
Sparkle said:
The difference is, plants, trees and animals in varying degrees are not consciously in the present moment.
I don't think we are in disagreement, the difference I would see is in the consciousness of our being in the moment.
Although analysis brings us out of the moment it also can, when practiced with deep meditation, lead us to knowledge, insight, wisdom, compassion, love. It allows us to be conscious of the enlightenment process in a way that is more intelligent and more evolved than simply "being" with "no awareness." - like a tree(as far as we know!!)
PS. Some people would disagree with this because they say they have tuned into trees and gained great wisdome from them - in fact I have done this myself in the past, but not sure if it was me tuning into the energy and peace of the tree which allowed me to access my own wisdom.
Louis |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2006 : 06:42:22 AM
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Hi Maximus
you said:
I think young babies also live in animal kinda mentality without too much analysis.
Here is a poem that describes this fo me.
I am looking at a rose
and realise I am not looking at a rose
the word rose is something I have learned from the past, a memory, I am not looking at a memory.
I am looking at the petals
and realise I am not looking at the petals
I am looking at the beautiful shades and textures and know there are no such things.
I am looking at the colours
and realise that colours don't exist.
I am looking, and realise that the concept of looking
does not exist.
I am three months old again
and know no words, no colours, no textures, no shapes, no concepts.
I am ........................................................................
.................................................................................
Sparkle 2005
If you know the Buddhist heart sutra, you will see the connection.
Louis |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2006 : 12:29:40 PM
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| Beautiful, Louis. A wonderful expression of emptiness. thanks 4 ur 2 cents. :) |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2006 : 6:40:14 PM
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Have you never watched a cat? Does it not sit in quiet but attentive (meditative) repose?
An animal lives in the now and does not anticipate the future? Have you never seen a dog anticipate the return of his master at the regular hour?
Perhaps the "enlightenment" of an animal can be just as "free" as the enlightenment of a human, but not as "full" due to their more limited mental capacity.
Paradox we find in this question. But a paradox is a concentrated energy source. Use it well. Do not close your mind to the antithesis of your current thought. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2006 : 10:35:28 AM
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Thanks Meg, much appreciated.
Dragon said:
Do not close your mind to the antithesis of your current thought.
Yep, that's a good policy for all of us, to always be open to a complete shift in another direction, or a shift to understanding two directions at once, as in the paradox of duality versus non-duality. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2006 : 9:39:05 PM
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Sparkle wrote:
"I don't think we are in disagreement, the difference I would see is in the consciousness of our being in the moment."
Why would knowing you're in the moment be any better than being in the moment? Doesn't that require a little abstract thought that is not in the moment?
LittleDragon wrote:
"Perhaps the "enlightenment" of an animal can be just as "free" as the enlightenment of a human, but not as "full" due to their more limited mental capacity."
Many of them don't have more limited mental capacity, it's just different than ours. But maybe not as full because of inability to commune with God. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2006 : 03:20:46 AM
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Ether wrote:
Why would knowing you're in the moment be any better than being in the moment?
I don't know.
Doesn't that require a little abstract thought that is not in the moment?
This has been discussed before about witnessing and whether "being" can be witnessed. I think what came out of it was that the witnessing is the being and visa versa in a conscious individual. Personally I would not call witnessing an abstract thought, but maybe I can be persuaded otherwise.
Cheers
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Aren't animals and plants enlightened?
