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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 12 2013 : 2:44:24 PM
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LMAO!! Thank you, Karl. That is precisely what I needed to hear at this particular moment. Here's to budgies.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2013 : 6:12:11 PM
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Praise be to Sri budgie  |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2013 : 8:09:19 PM
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Dear Bodhi,
I just happened across this post and agree with your observations and appreciate Govinda's detailed analysis and everybody's input.
My own teacher takes the Advaita approach in that, "You are fine just as you are. There is nothing to be achieved. Yoga is simply relaxing into your Natural State." In our school, God is the only Reality, BUT everything is a manifestation of the Divine, including our personalities and mythologies! God wanted to manifest as us, so we celebrate it.
For some reason this topic brings to mind something I read the other day. I was having a discussion with a friend about whether or not thought still happens after nirvikalpa samadhi. My friend said no, of course not! but I had to wonder, how would the sage then function in the world? Surely the brain must still operate in some manner, with or without ego awareness.
I did some research online and encountered the writings of an advaitan enlightened master who, when interviewed, declared, "there is no sensory input whatsoever, no thinking of any kind, the mind and senses are completely dead!" umkay, so how are you hearing what the interviewer is saying and how are you responding to the question? One of his students, likewise said to be a totally enlightened master having attained nirvikalpa samadhi, wrote a very beautiful and quite lengthy poem (reminded me a lot of our own dear Anantadevananda) which discussed and analyzed in some detail how "my master destroyed my ego with a glance of his loving wisdom," "I was previously in darkness but now in the light," "my master did this, I responded thusly, this happened, that happened, and now I don't exist at all and my mind is completely dead!" went on for pages about how his mind was completely dead and nonexistent. So, I guess the poem basically wrote itself, huh?! cool.
The best one, though, was another enlightened master who, when someone asked about his cigarette smoking habit, replied, "I am not smoking. You only think I am smoking because of your belief in the illusion of separate persons inhabiting these bodies. I do not exist, therefore how can I be smoking? It is illusion on your part." Wow, great answer, huh?! 
So, while my own experience has been that this little self becomes more and more translucent and not something "I" identify with as in the past, and I can see the validity of the position that God is the only Reality, at the same time I think the position can be taken to silly extremes.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2013 : 9:29:15 PM
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 you only hear what you need to hear. No matter how extreme it is. The master is hitting you with a stick. The more you need beating the more stick will have to be applied
After a while you feel the stick less and less then one day wonder what happened to that old stick and the master that wielded it.
Where there is no contradiction there is no suffering. The extreme nature is only in your perception because it is you that wrote it, that said it, that looked at the words and listened to the sounds.
Creator, created and creation. One in unity with the next creates no distortion.
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2013 : 10:14:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
you only hear what you need to hear. No matter how extreme it is. The master is hitting you with a stick. The more you need beating the more stick will have to be applied
After a while you feel the stick less and less then one day wonder what happened to that old stick and the master that wielded it.
Where there is no contradiction there is no suffering. The extreme nature is only in your perception because it is you that wrote it, that said it, that looked at the words and listened to the sounds.
Creator, created and creation. One in unity with the next creates no distortion.
umkay, whatever. <rolls eyes>
P.S. I didn't read or write anything, since "I" don't exist. |
Edited by - Radharani on Dec 12 2013 10:18:48 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2013 : 05:08:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
quote:
Originally posted by karl
you only hear what you need to hear. No matter how extreme it is. The master is hitting you with a stick. The more you need beating the more stick will have to be applied
After a while you feel the stick less and less then one day wonder what happened to that old stick and the master that wielded it.
Where there is no contradiction there is no suffering. The extreme nature is only in your perception because it is you that wrote it, that said it, that looked at the words and listened to the sounds.
Creator, created and creation. One in unity with the next creates no distortion.
umkay, whatever. <rolls eyes>
P.S. I didn't read or write anything, since "I" don't exist.
That's your perception. You are the Guru so you most emphatically do exist. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2013 : 12:40:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
The best one, though, was another enlightened master who, when someone asked about his cigarette smoking habit, replied, "I am not smoking. You only think I am smoking because of your belief in the illusion of separate persons inhabiting these bodies. I do not exist, therefore how can I be smoking? It is illusion on your part." Wow, great answer, huh?!
Stupendous! That sums it up perfectly. I should take that magic trick and use it with the people I've harmed. "It wasn't me that cheated on you, my wife. It wasn't me that stole from you, my grandmother. It wasn't me that belittled you, my brother. There is no you and me, after all, there is only the One."
A perfect cop-out and escape from all my dirty karma! Woohoo! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.  
Again, thank you, Radharani, for the comic relief. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2013 : 4:47:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
quote:
Originally posted by karl
you only hear what you need to hear. No matter how extreme it is. The master is hitting you with a stick. The more you need beating the more stick will have to be applied
After a while you feel the stick less and less then one day wonder what happened to that old stick and the master that wielded it.
Where there is no contradiction there is no suffering. The extreme nature is only in your perception because it is you that wrote it, that said it, that looked at the words and listened to the sounds.
Creator, created and creation. One in unity with the next creates no distortion.
umkay, whatever. <rolls eyes>
P.S. I didn't read or write anything, since "I" don't exist.
That's your perception. You are the Guru so you most emphatically do exist.
says who?!  |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2013 : 4:51:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
The best one, though, was another enlightened master who, when someone asked about his cigarette smoking habit, replied, "I am not smoking. You only think I am smoking because of your belief in the illusion of separate persons inhabiting these bodies. I do not exist, therefore how can I be smoking? It is illusion on your part." Wow, great answer, huh?!
Stupendous! That sums it up perfectly. I should take that magic trick and use it with the people I've harmed. "It wasn't me that cheated on you, my wife. It wasn't me that stole from you, my grandmother. It wasn't me that belittled you, my brother. There is no you and me, after all, there is only the One."
A perfect cop-out and escape from all my dirty karma! Woohoo! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Again, thank you, Radharani, for the comic relief.
I am sure these guys have an awesome sense of humor!
I just think it's funny as hell, and there could be SO many applications of this: "I didn't cuss. My mind is completely dead, how could I have said anything?"
"I wasn't drinking wine. There is no glass and nobody to drink from it."
"I was not speeding, officer. You only think I was speeding because of your attachment to the illusion of separate bodies moving around relative to each other in space-time."
etc. LOL! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 06:36:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
quote:
Originally posted by karl
you only hear what you need to hear. No matter how extreme it is. The master is hitting you with a stick. The more you need beating the more stick will have to be applied
After a while you feel the stick less and less then one day wonder what happened to that old stick and the master that wielded it.
Where there is no contradiction there is no suffering. The extreme nature is only in your perception because it is you that wrote it, that said it, that looked at the words and listened to the sounds.
Creator, created and creation. One in unity with the next creates no distortion.
umkay, whatever. <rolls eyes>
P.S. I didn't read or write anything, since "I" don't exist.
That's your perception. You are the Guru so you most emphatically do exist.
says who?!
I |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 10:28:13 AM
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quote:
"I was not speeding, officer. You only think I was speeding because of your attachment to the illusion of separate bodies moving around relative to each other in space-time."
quote:
That sums it up perfectly. I should take that magic trick and use it with the people I've harmed. "It wasn't me that cheated on you, my wife. It wasn't me that stole from you, my grandmother. It wasn't me that belittled you, my brother. There is no you and me, after all, there is only the One."
Nagarjuna proposed the most sensible way for conceiving (or not) of these matters, known as the Middle Way. It's the cornerstone of Madhyamaka Buddhism, and in fact Siddhartha Gautama himself characterized the path to Liberation as the "Middle Way".
It is succinctly summarized in Samyutta Nikaya's Kacc#257;yanagotta Sutta:
'Everything exists': That is one extreme.
'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.
Avoiding these two extremes,
The Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle...."
Following the Middle Way one avoids making statements positing opposite extremes about the truth of existence. Realizing for oneself the Absolute truth (no self, emptiness, the transparency and illusory nature of things) one is freed from suffering, yet one doesn't then adopt one's realization as an intellectual point of view, which posits the contrary point of view is erroneous. In fact, one acknowledges the Conventional Truth (people, places, things, time, space, ability to make empowered choices) [this breeds compassion] whilst being firmly rooted in realization of the Absolute Truth. The mind is thus freed from it's attachment either/or points of view (if X = Y, then X can't also = Z - Madhyamaka says yes, it can, because there are two levels of truth)
Thus the Middle Way frees us from the need to take opposing intellectual views, siding either with the Absolute or the Relative.
"Madhyamaka discerns two levels of truth, absolute and relative, to make clear that it does make sense to speak of existence. Absolutely seen, there are no "things". Relatively seen, there do exist concrete objects which we are aware of."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka#Two_truths
You'll see that Yogani's teaching, AYP, whilst not being a Buddhist teaching, is actually an examplar of a Middle Way approach to Truth and teaching. Yogani has always said something like "true Non-duality includes Duality".
Yogani makes reference to individual persons, with free will("There is free will. However exercising it effectively requires some finesse." - Yogani, Chapter 3 on Karma Yoga - from Bhakti and Karma Yoga book) and the desire to do spiritual practices, and the necessity of taking personal responsibility for our actions and doing the best we can with life. This is highly sensible conventional, non-nihilistic truth). He also makes reference to Absolute realization, that there is no free will (For example in Lesson 334 - Advaita, Non-Duality and Free will - "In the absolute sense, control is an illusion, as are choice, free will and all the happens in the name of the individual or personality. That absolutist's view, and if it's not known from the perspective of the Witness it will be the greatest illusion of all."), but that this should be directly realized (in a way that leads to an expansion of consciousness, rather than mental paralysis or Nihilism) rather than adopted as a view which negates conventional truth.
We need look no further than AYP for a clear and wise attitude on these matters:
-Obtain direct realization of Absolute Truth via spiritual practices, in a way that leads to an expansion of consciousness, freedom from suffering, wiser and better conduct, love by seeing the absence of separation
-Don't foolishly turn said realization into an intellectual view which negates conventional truth
Is there free will? Are there separate persons? Time, space, an objectively existing Universe? The best answer is perhaps to stay silent. Or perhaps nod your head, then shake it, then nod it again. Then shake it one more time.
Love,
Josh
Essentialism and Nihilism
What remains is the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism:[17]
The object of the critique is to show that the eternalist view is untenable and further to show that the 'own-being' theory adopted by some Buddhists did not really differ, when its implications were strictly worked out, from the eternalist theory of Brahmanism (theory of an eternal 'soul' and other eternal 'substances'.[16]
These two views are considered to be the two extreme views:
-Essentialism[23] or eternalism (sastavadava)[16] - a belief that things inherently exist and are therefore efficacious objects of craving and clinging;[23]
-Nihilism[23] or annihilationism (ucchedavada)[16] - views that lead one to believe that there is no need to be responsible for one's actions. Nagarjuna argues that we naively and innately perceive things as substantial, and it is this predisposition which is the root delusion that lies at the basis of all suffering.[23]
Madhyamaka represents the middle way" between them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka#Essentialism_and_nihilism
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Edited by - mr_anderson on Dec 15 2013 10:36:13 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 11:52:26 AM
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Nice post mr_anderson, certainly not "neo"-advaita
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 12:21:45 PM
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Here, here--Mr. Anderson! Thank you for that in-depth stroll through Middle Way Lane. I like that path.
It's not an EITHER/OR reality; it's a BOTH/AND one. SO, actually it's both EITHER/OR and BOTH/AND, since BOTH/AND trumps EITHER/OR. You see, BOTH/AND cannot exclude EITHER/OR. BOTH/AND must absorb EITHER/OR.
The middle way is the fine needle that threads the hole in the paradox, and alas, we are relieved from our existential struggle. What now? Bliss, ecstasy, expressed through infinite variations. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 4:55:13 PM
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Dear Josh,
Yes, I like that Middle Way approach very much and would agree with the concept of "two levels of truth."
You said:
You'll see that Yogani's teaching, AYP, whilst not being a Buddhist teaching, is actually an examplar of a Middle Way approach to Truth and teaching. Yogani has always said something like "true Non-duality includes Duality".
Yes. In fact, that's exactly what my teacher Mark Whitwell says ("Non-duality includes Duality").
Thanks for your very clear and helpful explanation.
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2013 : 11:43:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
My own teacher takes the Advaita approach in that, "You are fine just as you are. There is nothing to be achieved. Yoga is simply relaxing into your Natural State." In our school, God is the only Reality, BUT everything is a manifestation of the Divine, including our personalities and mythologies! God wanted to manifest as us, so we celebrate it.
There is so much to celebrate |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2013 : 11:38:38 AM
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Thanks Radharani, Bodhi, Sparkle. It's amazing to me how wise thinking almost always contains a balance between extremes.
Interestingly, this way of not taking extreme views was also espoused to some extent in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. It sounds like heavy going, but it's not actually. Worth a read if it ever takes your fancy. Has a lot to say about living a decent, honorable, virtuous and happy life. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Dec 16 2013 11:39:29 AM |
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