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riju
India
193 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 25 2013 : 10:55:53 AM
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quote:
Ultimately, we shed even this Paramataic immersion and wholly release ourselves to the quietude and stillness which transcends any duality. This is what I believe Sri Gautama Buddha was pointing out,
In the begining of this thread I had mentioned that science of Lotus sutra given by Guatam Buddha has been neglected due to its requiring spiritual insights. (read my view above on Lotus sutra
In the introductory chapter (I can paste the para from Lotus sutra for you) Guatam discards Arhats, who had achieved complete peace in themselves and for themselves only. He wanted only those Arhats who were ready to shed peace of Arhat to serve and mingle with existence.
He wanted them to live and practice compassion for others and in this way lose their peace. He wanted them to resuffer.
Only those arhats were accepted for the path of Buddhahood who agreed with Guatam Buddha. To them he taught lotus sutra.
Imagine for 35 relentless years he taught them to achieve total peace in mind (Therwada/hinayana) and reach arhat stage.
And then he told them to move ahead by a new method (mahayana) and to forget peace of mind of an arhat.
There was a solid logical reason behind all this.
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2013 : 11:03:54 AM
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quote:
Hi Riju,
Do you have the ability to contact or share presence with a Buddha (or God)?
May be.During meditation I am in contact with some higher power, probably some Bhoddisattva or may be Buddha Himself. A question arises in me and I get the answer. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2013 : 11:29:15 AM
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| That is why I gave the evolution system of Bees and Ants. I may be having this type of contact with Guatam Buddha. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 12:40:33 AM
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NO RESPONSE ANY MORE, IT SEEMS THE THREAD STOPS HERE.
Arahat is an extremely high stage of achievement. Hinduism and Jainism knew about this stage at the time of Guatam Buddha era and there are many descriptions of this path.
Arahat goes beyond all stages of bliss and reaches a perfect equanmity.
Arahat is much above those who practice yoga and meditation.Yoga and meditation is a source of SIDDHIS (Powers) achievements.
Guatam Buddha relentlessly taught by various suttas to his monks to achieve arahatship. But this is all that present Buddhism or any other religion at present around the world teaches.
No one is practicing Lotus sutra, because it is very difficult for an arahat to come out of his stage of achievement on his own.
A yoga and meditation expert has to cross first hurdle of Siddhis.
Second major hurdle is of Bliss of Arahatship.
And then starts a VOW to re-enter a state of sufferings for all the humanity or existence surrounding him. Here he has to sacrifice his siddhis and arahatship compltely and follow the path of COMPASSION.
And yet Arahat is a necessary certificate, based on which Lotus sutra teaching starts.
Guatam Buddha predicted that after 500 years of his passing away, there will be hardly any one who will understand Lotus sutra.
He went to the extent that if any one who opens up Lotus sutra in latter times, he will be insulted, ignored, hated.
I have tested Buddha forums and Lotus sutra teachings are missing.
I have read so called teachers of Bhuddism, and they are totally ignorant of WISDOM of Lotus sutra. There are many devotees of Lotus sutra at present in Buddhism and they are not able to explain the writings.
I have also roamed around in HIMALYAS and met many practicing saints, meditators, ashram gurus, yogis, and tried to open lotus sutra for them. I have been met mostly with silence.
SILENCE IS WHAT I HAVE TO BECOME HERE AS WELL
( everyone of you can retry reading lotus sutra, translation in all languages is available on internet and also printed books are there) |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 08:18:29 AM
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Hi Riju,
Your posts seem to have been leading to this last point that some traditions sort of top off at the Arahat level, while implying that Buddha taught a higher "Buddha" level. But why do you find the Lotus sutra unique, the Lankavatara Sutra gives a very organized and clear view of all of the stages and even warns about not getting "stuck" and continuing on to "full realization". It also describes useful practices to support realization and a overview of universal mind.
What do you find that makes the Lotus sutra superior? Does it describe steps or practices to transcend the Arahat level? Can you describe the approach?
Also, Dzogchen, Bon and Gnostic Christianity all have techniques and teachings for moving beyond the Arahat level to full realization. Are you familiar with those traditions, so that we can discuss how the approaches compare to what you have found with the Lotus sutra?
Thanks for the discussion.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 11:05:23 PM
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1.Lankavatara sutra.... We see our physical world. This physical world of stars, galaxis, milkiways is hardly 1% of the total world. 99% of the world out there is in the form of cosmic energy (part of it is mental).
And the source of all this is EMPTINESS. Lankavatara sutra is describing this in details. This is what maximum I know about it.
2. Lotus sutra.....Is far far beyond. It explains the method by which human beings like you and me can fully use or exploit the material of the whole world (described in Lankavatra and other sutras) for self benefit and for the benefit of other existence.
Based on the knowledge given in Lotus sutra one can grow to a very high level. And after becoming a Buddha or Bhoddisattva can take part in designing future worlds. These Buddhas (you and me after folowing Lotus sutra) will be having an experience of negativities of this existing worlds and hence will be in a position to improve the existence.
3.Dzogchen...gives a science of silencing the mind within the presence of guru or teacher or a little higher power. Probably with this science one can become low grade arahat or understand and experience NO SELF stage.
4.Bon and Gnostic....No idea, I have not studied them. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 11:25:58 PM
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1. Lotus sutra explains scientifically that we two legged human beings are in the centre of this universe. We are the real creators. We have created, parlays, mahaparlays, galaxis, suns etc.
All because, we at lower level know the physical world and at higher levels know mental and cosmic world. Our body being in the MIDDLE of creation was able to tap the knowledge.
With this knowledge and unlimited time of evolution we have reached the high stage of being CREATORS. We are the ones who are stage by stage making this creation organised and free from sufferings.
THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF LOTUS SUTRA IS THAT WE BUDDHAS HAVE MADE A PERMANENT BASE. NO OTHER SYSTEM HAS THIS ADVANTAGE.
Those who rely on gods, supergods, atmas etc. close their mind to this path of growth. Persons are so afraid that they badly need the support of some one else. With the understanding of Lotus sutra one can come out of this state of fear. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2013 : 11:39:40 PM
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Lower physical and cosmic worlds have immense atoms (small particles) and hence can store huge amount of information, knowledge, logic, and WISDOM.
Upper cosmic worlds have IMMENCE power.
Two legged human beings have been able to tap both these sources. And the combination is the Buddhas. Buddhas are store house of immense power due to their immense WISDOM.
Self or Ego is the one that started this process. Self or Ego also has the negativity of dividing. WISDOM overcomes this negativity after an indivitual has experienced NO SELF or ARAHAT stage. And then this WISDOM oriented human being controls the ego when it wants the DIVISION and gives this ego full freedom to BLOOM OR EXPAND when it is collecting the WISDOM AND POWER. |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2013 : 12:10:28 AM
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Good evening, riju.
quote:
Originally posted by riju
Arahat is an extremely high stage of achievement. Hinduism and Jainism knew about this stage at the time of Guatam Buddha era and there are many descriptions of this path.
Yes, you are most correct. The Rig Vedas makes several definitive reference to "Arahatta" and we find this term used in the Bhagavata Purana, as well as prevalent within Jain scriptures, quite frequently. Most of the qualities and attributes of any spiritual lineage are wholly universal... and Arahats and Bodhisattvas are not limited to any special group or scriptural teaching. So, those who have risen to such levels are found in practically all religions, worldwide (though the labels we attribute to them vary in name from linguistic system to linguistic system).
quote:
Arahat goes beyond all stages of bliss and reaches a perfect equanmity. Arahat is much above those who practice yoga and meditation.Yoga and meditation is a source of SIDDHIS (Powers) achievements.
While this is quite correct, it applies equally to all spiritual beings in transition, even Buddhists. Are you saying Sri Shankaracharya, Sant Kabir, Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Anandamayi Ma or Sri Sri Sitaramdas Omkarnath were not also illumined Arahats? Please consider how this come across to others who practice alternate systems of spiritual training, specifically the Yogic lineages.
Vedic wisdom is undeniably the root of Buddhism, itself an extension and branch of the same Sacred tree, so to speak. Although Gautama Buddha saw how too much adherence to rituals, books and written teachings are often quite fruitless. They do not transfer enlightenment in and of themselves. We all need to move far beyond literal conceptions, beyond mind, beyond human thinking, even Buddhist scholars.
In my studies and deepest contemplations, I have found that Yogis, Buddhists, Taoists, Sufis, Christian Gnostics, Jewish Kabbalahists and Native American shamanic belief systems, all contain similar descriptives and thus, regardless of faith or linguistics... a saintly person is a saintly person, period! Wisdom is wisdom, wherever it blossoms and whosoever speak it. 
quote:
A yoga and meditation expert has to cross first hurdle of Siddhis. Second major hurdle is of Bliss of Arahatship. And then starts a VOW to re-enter a state of sufferings for all the humanity or existence surrounding him. Here he has to sacrifice his siddhis and arahatship compltely and follow the path of COMPASSION.
Here we agree completely! Surrender and ego-death open us to higher understanding. In Theistic traditions, we call this the descent of "Grace"... and said Grace blooms within our hearts as an intensely deep compassion for all sentient life forms. This engenders spiritual love, tremendous bliss and wondrously ecstatic levels of euphoria. But even our attachment to the bliss and Samadhi/Satori/Divine Rapture, etc... is a subtle but entrapping form of bondage. Attachment of any kind is still attachment, plain and simple and thus, it is not yet Moksha.
Even love of Krishna or the Buddha, can keep the subject-object dichotomy intact and maintain the barriers which divide the sincere seeker from that which is sought. Yogic literature is filled with teachings dealing with this cross-road and many of us here are very familiar with letting of of all associations and fixations. When we do so... we transcend the mirage of our limiting self-identification with form & substance and thus, freely bloom exponentially (regardless of lineage of belief system).
Ultimately, we are each called by the Supreme Spiritus, Brahman, the Tao or Buddhi... or whatever we choose to name the unnameable... to release all of ourselves into the Clear Light of the Void. Being proud of our favorite Sutra or Gospel is equally binding to the soul of any Jiva/individual. We must each surrender everything and become centered, still and serene. And even when the seeker reaches such blissful and ecstatic states, they must be set aside with all other subjective interpretations and individual attachments. Our Yogic efforts to attune us to this higher truth, bringing us that much closer to the insubstantial radiance of the infinite Bindu.
We all must move beyond our own chosen dogmas and stop our minds from dominating our conscious-awareness. So yes, we are all heading the same direction and I salute anyone who devotes their life to spiritual attunement and deep immersion within the Sacred Web of the Unified Field of Being. Why assume other systems lack this beatific quality and higher teaching? Are we not all incrementally becoming more compassionate, harmonious and loving? I believe that we are! So, please try to understand that each of us are the same, in this regard. We share the same Sacred heartbeat. 
Personally, I have been more exposed to Chan/Seon/Zen Buddhist path... but I am familiar with the Pali Canon, the Lotus Sutra and the Diamond Sutra. I sincerely respect the Theravada tradition, Mahayana and Hinayana, as well as the various Buddhist tributaries like Vajrayana, flowing gracefully throughout this world at large.
I myself love Sakyamuni and deeply honer his teachings. Since boyhood, the image of Gautama Buddha seated in Padmasana has been an inspiration. It was this which initially brought me to meditation, as a youngster, and still continues to generate renewed aspirations towards "enlightenment". We share mcuh in common.
But I equally honor all spiritual teachers and methods or paradigms of spiritual teaching. There are no lasting "isms" or "ists"... these are just ideas. Merely thought-forms, traditions of essentially, dogma and religious club-politics. Stripping away all thoughts... there is only the eternal flow of the Tao. We are not just one with that expression, we are nothing else but that. 
Or in Yogic terms, if one sees the Godhead most immanently, and directly experiences the glory of Brahman hidden in everything, manifesting anew as the all-in-all, there is naught but God to witness. Then in a profound way, God is perceiving Godself in all aspects of existence and within all manifestations or variations of existential being. I find far more symmetry than asymmetry betwixt Vedanta and Buddhism. While their myriad cosmological ideologies are dissimilar in specificity of content, their teachings the benefits practiced by their students, are mirrored images in their effect.
I personally see everything as an expression of the Divine Being, so too, I also see all appearances as being wholly illusory in nature, impermanent and transitory. For in the truest reality, all is One indivisible quintessence. Thus, I honestly believe that most of our attempts to express what we experience in deepest meditation, inspired contemplation or higher levels of conscious-awareness, are just that... expressions drawn from our own human subjectivity. Much of this is impossible to clearly put into words, though some of it miraculously slips through the dichotomy of the subject-object juxtaposition.
I feel that in silence and the infinite quietude of spiritual absorption, they too, are part of our dreamscapes and so, remain bound to our illusory minds. Thoughts and ideologies need to be whooly stilled and completely silenced, to shift beyond dualistic perceptions. And I honor your path, towards that aim.
May your day and your night be filled with much peace and serenity, crystal clarity and equanimity, dear friend.
Namaste, your brother Govinda
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 28 2013 : 11:16:51 PM
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Brother i see a huge difference in your and mine thinking'
1. for me there is no divine power on whom I should look upto. I look upto the Buddhas (churned out wisdom from milk of existence)
2. for me Ego is very very important. I treated Ego as a wild horse whom I have reined in with WISDOM. Now that my ego is under my control. I use it whenever it unites sentients in my body and also it unites my relationship outside with the world.
When this ego of mine gets unruly or out of control, I sit in meditation and rein it in with WISDOM again and again.
The path is the same in almost all the religions upto the level of Arahat.
You have picked up those points only on which you agree with my writings.And there are bound to be similarities to that extent.
But I have written much more where you may not like to agree with my writings.
Basically I am submitting three major points on which I need your comments.
1. Supreme God if any is not connected with the system of evolution of our universe.
2. Guatam Buddh considered many (not all) Arhats as chaffs of rice.(part of rice which is better be thrown out).
3.It is Buddhas who are the real creaters of this universe and they have the permanent/eternal base on which this creative universe is improving.
Here are my comments on your reply
quote:
Ultimately, we are each called by the Supreme Spiritus, Brahman, the Tao or
Buddhi... or whatever we choose to name the unnameable... to release all of
ourselves into the Clear Light of the Void. Being proud of our favorite Sutra or
Gospel is equally binding to the soul of any Jiva/individual. We must each
surrender everything and become centered, still and serene. And even when the
seeker reaches such blissful and ecstatic states, they must be set aside with all
other subjective interpretations and individual attachments. Our Yogic efforts to
attune us to this higher truth, bringing us that much closer to the insubstantial
radiance of the infinite Bindu
Supereme being, Brahman, Tao are the starting point of our journey to existence.
Going back to the source is a total waste. After all in the journey of existence we have suffered a lot and picked up WISDOMS. If we go to the source we lose this Wisdom.
Buddhi is different. It is the butter of the churning. We have to find out the methods of saving it. Buddhas successfully found this method and lotus sutra mentions this.
quote:
Personally, I have been more exposed to Chan/Seon/Zen Buddhist path... but
I am familiar with the Pali Canon, the Lotus Sutra and the Diamond Sutra. I
sincerely respect the Theravada tradition, Mahayana and Hinayana, as well as
the various Buddhist tributaries like Vajrayana, flowing gracefully throughout this
world at large
My personal reading is that you are not exposed to Lotus sutra and Diamond sutra.Let us both open up, I expect many secrets will come out in our discussion.
quote:
I personally see everything as an expression of the Divine Being, so too, I also
see all appearances as being wholly illusory in nature, impermanent and
transitory. For in the truest reality, all is One indivisible quintessence. Thus, I
honestly believe that most of our attempts to express what we experience in
deepest meditation, inspired contemplation or higher levels of
conscious-awareness, are just that... expressions drawn from our own human
subjectivit
Agreed. I may add that I am also the divided part of this divine being
quote:
While this is quite correct, it applies equally to all spiritual beings in transition,
even Buddhists. Are you saying Sri Shankaracharya, Sant Kabir, Ramakrishna
Paramahansa, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Anandamayi Ma or Sri Sri Sitaramdas
Omkarnath were not also illumined Arahats? Please consider how this come
across to others who practice alternate systems of spiritual training, specifically
the Yogic lineages
They might have been in transition. My clear feeling is that Arahat tends towards invisibility and when he has reached the final destination of Arahat, his existence becomes invisible to others.
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Edited by - riju on Aug 29 2013 12:04:21 AM |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 12:16:47 AM
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ABSOLUTE EMPTINESS
Emptiness creates life anywhere and everywhere.
But it gives it time after which the life goes back into emptiness.
It is like waves in a sea. The waves rise and then fall back.
The Lotus sutra totally surprised me when it said that many important past Buddhas were two legged beings. I take it that he is refering to human beings.
Many Rishis and saints in past understood the power of emptiness.
Many must have tried to survive, but failed before Buddhas came.
The existence was full of dukkha and none was finding relief.
But some great ones in the past could reach a position of an arahat and got away from the clutches of dukkha.
But this arahat was a one of greatest mirage and all arahats in the past would fall back into emptiness. The reason was that when one tastes freedom from dukkha, one is in total peace of anand (happiness). And the Time (the unrelenting Kal) takes him back to emptiness.The Arhat does not want to come out of that state. Other reason is that he thinks that there is no alternative as this emptiness is a form of God.But it was still considered a success as he is the one who escaped.
UNTIL A WISER ONE CAME. The first two legged Buddha understood the problem and found out the solution. THE LOTUS SUTRA GIVES THAT SOLUTION.
I have brought out the problem for all of you and I have told you that solution was found out and it is in lotus sutra. I hope some of you are curious to search and find out the solution. I think here I should not put my words before you.
Buddhas have not totally succeeded against emptiness but it is claim by Buddhas in lotus sutra that they have almost done it.
Do these words not prove that Emptiness is all prevading Absolute Truth. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 09:45:49 AM
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Hi Riju,
The Lankavatara Sutra describes the issue of "falling back into emptiness" very well in the following words...
Â
The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.Â
Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.Â
But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation.
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 11:04:24 AM
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MY OWN IDEAS ABOUT EMPTINESS/AWARENESS/DIVINE POWER
Starting point is God (Nature of God is Awareness and Emptiness).
Other names given are THAT/SUPREME GOD/ DIVINEPOWER/TAO/ATMA
Awareness is God's mind and Emptiness is God's body.
It is only one/not one, no where, yet everywhere (no space, no time), unstable, Ignorant.
Ignorance and instability was a first cause of split,and this created many from one.
Very powerful unisex (neither male nor female) Gods along with space and time got created at that stage.
The space was not of this three dimensioned type, but it had fourth dimension as well. (this can be discussed later).
The presence of these various Gods in the neighbourhood created consciouness in some of them. And this consciousness gave them control (like a steering wheel of a car).
And this became a major Cause and these gods started searching for ETERNITY ( transceding TIME).
This is the stage of start of BUDDHHAHOOD.
Buddhas first developed WISDOM due to various experiences in the past due to interaction of CAUSE AND EFFECT.
This WISDOM made them understand the Emptiness of Consciousness. And understanding the stage of NO SELF they joined together to survive upto ETRENITY. They were the first BUDDHAS.
Thus UNISEX is the start of life downwards
The Gods that did not understand Wisdom split further and came down to lower planes.
One semi ignorant God split some portion of Himself to create a playmate and entertainer for Himself. We subsequently describe them as MALE AND FEMALE.
This god kept the Self, creativity, and wisdom with himself and gave emotions like love, service to the female part.
So He started a perfect happy life with entertainer, service provider, emotional partner.
This model was very appealing to many other Gods and they started copying Him rather than copy BUDDHAS.
Later on due to interaction of male and females and their duties these sexes got intermixed.At present all males are not 100 % males and neither
females are 100% females.
The Buddhas had created an eternal survival kit against time and Emptiness with their WISDOM. This is the core of Bhuddism.
Male female creation and segregation came much later.
Even now as per lotus sutra no Buddha has been able to enter Buddhahood or Nirvan with male or female genital. He has to be unisex.
Later on when two legged human beings with a lot of variety of emotions, sexes, creativity etc, got produced by various Gods, Buddhas were very fascinated.
They want these varieties and creativities of bisexuals, males and females to be incorporated in this world of Buddhahood. Various Bhoddisattvas are operating and experimenting with these worlds of variety.
Budhas are successful to the extent that females along with males can go to Buddhahood in steps. First females have to shed their emotions and start changing to malehood.
Second and very important .....Males and so called females (who have changed to males ) have to shed their genitals, convert into UNISEX MALE . After this they are qualified to become Buddhas.
But effort to widen the scope to get entry is the effort of Bhoddisattvas for all LIFE, may it be male, female, animals etc.
It is continuing and we see a huge variety of universes that Bhoddisattvas exist in.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 1:23:10 PM
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Hi Riju,
I have been looking "inside" and exploring for a while. From what I have found, there are a few of your points that I would agree with, but would disagree with some and things like the creation of women and how that effects the world.
Awareness (God) is like a primordial sea of light plama. No order or structure. A buddha is one that has been able to find form and structure in the sea. The buddha then creates a stable "bubble" in the sea. This bubble is what is often called "universal mind", the mind of a buddha or existence.
A buddha is the basis for what we call reality, but also has a "form" or presence in the reality. This form is often called a "rainbow body". A buddha and other "higher" beings can be directly contacted (communicate) when one begins to notice the "light" of universal mind/consciousness.
Our human forms are our "mappings" into this stable platform of buddha consciousness. Where most of us would be lost (and cease) in the primordial sea, we are able to grow and develop in the World (framework) provided by a buddha. Each being has the ability to grow and become a "buddha".
The male and female "forms" are just part of the ongoing development. Growing beings (or ego as you call them) need to experience both. Rather than as you described, the female form is more directly "integrated" into the world (or buddha mind) than a male. The female form is much better at "creation" and can hold approximately 10x the light/energy as a male form. This greater worldly energy and integration can create a feeling of stronger attachment (emotions). The male form acts more like a "network" or conduit for light/energy. With the lower strength/energy held in the form there is less connection (integration) and greater ability to move.
I would agree that a Buddha (and all higher beings) are unisex. Becoming a buddha requires the male component to connect and have the framework of mind, combined with the female component of creation and formation of the world (stable platform). But, one cannot become a buddha without the a heart filled with "love like a mother". Buddhahood is about balance and clarity.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 4:08:51 PM
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Hello I am new to the forums and have found this to be an interesting thread thank you for sharing riju.
riju please forgive me but this thread has become very complex following all the communications back and forth but there is an underlying theme here that is being perceived and I would like to ask of you something.
It occurs to me that everything came from a source weather all were a part of that source or not and all are one I do not believe all connected is a different matter furthermore the whole movement of returning to that source seems somewhat pointless. There is no need to separate only to combine, pointless.
I have heard it said in the beginning there was God and God was one and had the desire to become many and so did so. This comes from Swamis with knowing smiles well rehearsed likely in the mirror and when questioned unabashedly hold onto their point of view while at the same time honestly answering that they do not know why.
This is nice to hear but does not explain the why or to what purpose.
To become many only to become one again. To spring from nothingness to return to nothingness and to honor that as the highest achievement, well something is incorrect with this reasoning.
Achieving bliss via Pranayama Practices and unspeakably profound states of stillness, becoming one with the indescribable even rendering the heart without a beat and the awareness of a body is not a difficult achievement.
Samadhi states are not the end all and be all either having experienced them it is simply a way of being aware while identified with yet another body in a place and a time that language does not do a very good job of translating.
It occurs to me you are attempting to put a purpose to the process and share your deep inner knowings very commendable and brave.
Is it possible to bring your knowing of the big picture together and summarize? if so would you mind doing so. Thank you that is my question. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 29 2013 : 11:02:56 PM
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quote:
Jeff wrote
Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.
Thanks Jeff,
For selecting words of Buddha which support my writings. And I do feel happy when I see you expressing your understanding. Such responses are rare. |
Edited by - riju on Aug 30 2013 12:28:01 AM |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 12:23:47 AM
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quote:
Hi Riju,
I have been looking "inside" and exploring for a while. From what I have found,
there are a few of your points that I would agree with, but would disagree with
some and things like the creation of women and how that effects the world
Jeff dear,
You do have been looking inside. Your letter is EXTRAORDINARY.
quote:
Awareness (God) is like a primordial sea of light plama. No order or structure. A
buddha is one that has been able to find form and structure in the sea. The
buddha then creates a stable "bubble" in the sea. This bubble is what is often
called "universal mind", the mind of a buddha or existence.
A buddha is the basis for what we call reality, but also has a "form" or presence
in the reality. This form is often called a "rainbow body". A buddha and other
"higher" beings can be directly contacted (communicate) when one begins to
notice the "light" of universal mind/consciousness.
Our human forms are our "mappings" into this stable platform of buddha
consciousness. Where most of us would be lost (and cease) in the primordial
sea, we are able to grow and develop in the World (framework) provided by a
buddha. Each being has the ability to grow and become a "buddha"
Summery of our agreement is very clear, and you have put it in your different
beautiful words.
quote:
The male and female "forms" are just part of the ongoing development. Growing
beings (or ego as you call them) need to experience both. Rather than as you
described, the female form is more directly "integrated" into the world (or buddha
mind) than a male. The female form is much better at "creation" and can hold
approximately 10x the light/energy as a male form. This greater worldly energy
and integration can create a feeling of stronger attachment (emotions). The male
form acts more like a "network" or conduit for light/energy. With the lower
strength/energy held in the form there is less connection (integration) and greater
ability to move.
I would agree that a Buddha (and all higher beings) are unisex. Becoming a
buddha requires the male component to connect and have the framework of mind,
combined with the female component of creation and formation of the world
(stable platform). But, one cannot become a buddha without the a heart filled with
"love like a mother". Buddhahood is about balance and clarity.
(DISAGREEMENT WITH JEFF DISCUSSED)
Jeff let us go deeper "INSIDE".
The first parting was EGO creating female cosmic energy out of ITSELF and Ego
being termed male cosmic energy.
This parting required a force coming out of this EGO in the form of LIGHT.
Counter part of LIGHT in the female was emotion of LOVE.
Light created formations of stars, suns and galaxis and its counterparat Love
prevades everywhere as uniting force.
Love emotions got complicated due to mixing in of ,hate, fear,attachment etc.
Light the counter part also got complicated in the form of various elements like
gold, silver, coal etc.
RESULT
Guatam Buddha produced the science of VIPASSANA on this above findings.
Awareness in meditation clears the emotions. Counter result of these emotions
getting clarified is the change of LIGHT (electrons) in physical part of our body.
And physical change produces sensations.
VIPASSANA IS WATCHING WITH AWARENESS BOTH MIND AND BODYV
SENSATIONS .
This is the fastest method of attaining ARAHAT ship or NOSELF experience.
(AGREEMENT WITH JEFF ON THE SAME PARA IN A DIFFERENT WAY)
Jeff there is a chapter no 11 named TREASURE TOWER in a book Lotus sutra
translated by BURTON WATSON.
Here Guatam buddha mentions LIGHT (counter part of LOVE) has created
another type of Buddha (Named treaure tower Buddha) in previous evolutionary
cycles.
Together Guatam Buddha as well as Treasure tower Buddha are now working on
our existence due to opening of Lotus sutra.
My inner voice tells me that this computer technology is the second name of this
Treasure tower Buddha which is flowering out day by day.
And if this is do you are right in your disagreement. |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 12:50:49 AM
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Experentiaknowing,
Good that you are interested.
Summery of this thread is....
All came down from one to many in chaotic and disorderly state.
Inter action of many was the CAUSE and EFFECT came automatically due to TIME (kal).
This churning of cause and effect created WISDOMS (BUDDHAS).
Buddhas out of WISDOM first made a permanent base against the force of TIME (KAL) and were successful.
Now these Buddha are strengthening this base as well as bringing out orderliness in this existence.
The present world that we see is not fully orderly. There is sufferings, death, old age etc. The Buddhas have successfully brought order in top layers of evolution. And now they are working on our planes.
All of us can become Buddhas. This science is exposed in Lotus sutra. We can take a constructive part in this evolution. We can simultaneously achieve, prosperity, happiness, health and peace.
This can be done by moving upwards towards ONE (source of power) and also keeping MANY (source of knowledge).
I would be happy to answer any of your specific questions even if I have to repeat myself, please do not hesitate. Thanks |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 01:45:07 AM
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Nice summary. I would use different words but what you are saying is essentially how I see things too.
Love,
Carson 
P.S. Never read the Lotus Sutra.  |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 02:56:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by riju
Brother i see a huge difference in your and mine thinking'
Yes, I know that. It's been clear since the onset of your thread that you feel that your spiritual path is wholly different from the Yogic one and more so, is superior to just about every other approach humanity has discovered. That's cool, to each their own. 
I've admittedly, a propensity to see the similarities and the parallels between all spiritual paths and accept some variances between their own unique doctrines and cosmologies, as the natural outcome of cultural biases and personal spiritual preferences.
quote:
1. for me there is no divine power on whom I should look upto. I look upto the Buddhas (churned out wisdom from milk of existence
Fascinating. Perhaps what you choose to perceive as "the Buddhas" is in essence, "divine power"? In the overall content of your description of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, as being the source of your inspiration or aspiration... there is little difference from those speaking of Angels, Saints, Avatars, Tirthankaras, Gods or Goddesses. The names are semantically different but the light and compassion are symbiotic of one another, regardless of the definitive labels we each employ in our particular linguistics and cherished philosophies.
It's really all how we individually choose to shape these exalted spiritual energies into cohesive human conceptions. Only in the mind of the individual perceiver, is there any differentiation betwixt this or that, in specificity of meaning.
quote:
2. for me Ego is very very important. I treated Ego as a wild horse whom I have reined in with WISDOM. Now that my ego is under my control. I use it whenever it unites sentients in my body and also it unites my relationship outside with the world.
When this ego of mine gets unruly or out of control, I sit in meditation and rein it in with WISDOM again and again.
Yes, the ego is the outer husk of the kernel within, the self which observes existence as it endlessly transforms for one moment to another, from one seemingly finite form and circumstance to another.
And I agree with you, as ego is needed to enter into the dynamic expression of material human existence. Without an ego... who would be having this heady discussion at all? No one on the Yogic path wants to become spiritually catatonic or an automaton. We are also earnestly consciously refining and transforming the ego we embody, to better serve our own spiritual growth and humanity at large...
It's just that it's so very important to realize that the ego is a transitory tool. It is wholly impermanent, like all passing forms. Far more impermanent that the Atma (or Soul). And if we are all truly and ultimately Anatma, as I suspect we all are in our innermost cores, our entire dreamscape is a passing wisp of smoke in the lazy breeze.
I know you view things differently and I accept and respect your vision, without feeling a need to counter your vantage point with my own. It is most equanimous to accept that each sentient being has some truth to their views. I feel that all perspectives have intrinsic value and are subjectively relative to the mind of the entity which perceives them, as a cohesive, functioning reality.
quote:
The path is the same in almost all the religions upto the level of Arahat.
You have picked up those points only on which you agree with my writings.And there are bound to be similarities to that extent.
But I have written much more where you may not like to agree with my writings.
Yes, you are probably right about this point. I am not in favor of sectarian struggles or religious debates over who has the one and only, secret key to unlock all of the mysteries of heaven and earth. I prefer to agree and find some significant common ground, than disagree and find major differences.
I can only believe what I have experienced directly, as can anyone. And even then, I always take what I experience "with a grain of salt", as my own dreamscape playing itself out before my subjectivity. Not as in an unconscious mirage I witness, churned out of my imagination and wrongly mistaken for reality. Rather, I see the impressions these ideas and visions have on my mortal mind as partial truths, parts of something far beyond my grasp or the scope of words.
That being said, I have spent a number of decades practicing the art of deep meditation and believe that regardless of how we as individuals color and ornament the higher states we encounter... they are wholly universal in principle. Furthermore, for myself, only through stilling the ego's habitual pattern of attention, can true spiritual attunement genuinely begin. It's the journey of a lifetime (or multiple lifetimes)! As you wisely state, as an analogy, it's a lot like training a horse, dog or donkey.
quote:
Basically I am submitting three major points on which I need your comments.
1. Supreme God if any is not connected with the system of evolution of our universe.
My opinion and comments? I'd be honored to answer your questions. Mind you, I do not draw my beliefs from any particular lineage or system. Although I honestly lean strongly towards Advaita Vedanta. But I fancy myself as a free soul, one who decides for himself what is true and what is illusory, relative to my own direct experiences. Anything else would be to conceptual to take as an ultimate truth.
Okay, I honestly believe that nothing exists but Supreme God. Sadhakas are not returning to it... we ARE it! The One is never apart from the phenomenal world. All is composed of this ineffable, insubstantial quintessence. I personally believe Samadhi or Satori shifts our attention to the degree that we perceive this Divine energy within all that appears to exist and this strongly implies it has always existed symbiotically within all of it's expressions. It is masquerading as this and that... but it is always present.
So, I feel that it's not really even an evolution or a linear journey, it's just a profound acknowledgement of what is already here already. What is truly at the heart of this existential paradigm, pulsing enigmatically within this present moment. I don't conceptually separate The Supreme from it's own creation or even from myself.
I see clearly, by the Grace of God and Gurudev, that Sacred is the all-in-all, immanent within all things, even in the emptiness of the Void. From my view, saying God created the universe is simply mortal mind exercising it's humanoid reasoning capacity, projecting human paradigms and ideas upon the immensity of that which is Sacred.
The God I experience as vitally immanent and wholly present within all things, is not limited to the time-space-continuum nor bound to any particular form. So, the appearance of beginnings and endings are occurring within the mind of the observer, alone.
One need but shift one's focus to an alternate frequency of conscious-awareness, to perceive other equally valid levels and degrees of existential being. You know, even modern science is in agreement here. Within the seeming solidity of materiality, is an interplay of subatomic particles which have tremendous amounts of empty space between them. All is not as it appears.
So, the solidity and concrete reality of what the 5 senses tell us, is wholly illusory from another angle. Just about everything perceivable is only real, relative to the frequency of perception observing it's play. So, in a nutshell... on some levels I kinda do believe that God has everything to do with the immeasurable intelligence inerrant within this universe we collectively inhabit, for God perpetually creates the Omniverse at at large, with brilliant precision and sheer perfection. The is much art and magic throughout it's Divine expression. It is upheld by laws of harmony and balance. This is truly miraculous and might be addressed as universal evolution (or God being Godself).
Just as a flower initially sprouts from a seed and grows until it blooms beatifically and then, withers to dust... it is we who conceptualize an evolutionary sequence of events. The force flows through the form and draws it back into a state of insubstanciality.
As God manifests as a series of incarnated Avatars, Buddhas, Christs or Tirthankaras... I see more symmetry than asymmetry between the teachings they convey. Besides, actions speak louder than words and compassion is central to any of these enlightened beings.
quote:
2. Guatam Buddh considered many (not all) Arhats as chaffs of rice.(part of rice which is better be thrown out).
Perhaps he did... I cannot much comment on this statement, as the analogy sounds so judgmental to my sensibilities and seems to be an altogether different attitude than compassion. If you mean that he saw that many Arhats were having states of conscious-awareness bound by higher and far subtler dreamscapes, but still not being liberated, I could understand your meaning. Only the fully awakened ones are incarnated embodiments of the kernel within the chaff.
quote:
:3It is Buddhas who are the real creaters of this universe and they have the permanent/eternal base on which this creative universe is improving.
From my viewpoint, the universe is cyclical. I'd add that IMO, God is the creator of the Buddhas themselves. That the Buddhas are naught but That. You and I and all the readers of these words are naught but That. Whether Brahman manifests as Krishna, Buddha, Mahavira or Christ... God is still the doer and all of the acts done. The Alpha and the Omega.
quote:
Here are my comments on your reply. Supereme being, Brahman, Tao are the starting point of our journey to existence.
Going back to the source is a total waste. After all in the journey of existence we have suffered a lot and picked up WISDOMS. If we go to the source we lose this Wisdom.
Buddhi is different. It is the butter of the churning. We have to find out the methods of saving it. Buddhas successfully found this method and lotus sutra mentions this.
No doubt it appears so from your vantage point. That's cool, "different strokes for different folks". But I clearly see that the Supreme Being/Brahman/Tao/YHWH/Allah has no beginning or ending. God has always been and always will be... what we all are interconnectedly, in our truest essence. We aren't just parts of the whole, we are the whole itself, channeling itself into our myriad forms and the kaleidoscopic patterns of our transitory experiences. The journey to enlightenment is a drama enacted by God, brought to life through the myriad forms it spontaneously manifests. Yet, until we realize this for ourselves, it merely another set of ideas and on some level, still conceptual gymnastics.
quote:
My personal reading is that you are not exposed to Lotus sutra and Diamond sutra.Let us both open up, I expect many secrets will come out in our discussion.
Well, I actually have been exposed to them by a good friend of mine living in Hong Kong. There aren't really any secrets in my statement. Being "exposed to", reading from or being inspired by, are not necessarily conforming word-for-word or speaking in their specific semantics and cosmological ideologies.
I have also been exposed to the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Zend Avesta, the Holy Bible, the Kabbalah, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the Koran and the lovely poetry of Rumi and Hafiz (as well as many, many other scriptures).
And admittedly, I am most assuredly not a theologian or an in depth scholar of any of these Holy scriptures. I absorb something beautiful from each of them and integrate what resonates the most into my own personal understanding. I choose not to limit my devotion to one lineage at the exclusion of the others. To each their own.
quote:
I may add that I am also the divided part of this divine being
Me too, or so it might appear on the surface of things. I believe we are both, equally unified aspects of the indivisibility of the Spirit, pure reflections of the indwelling Light.
Be well, shine brightly and enjoy this eternal moment. |
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 08:08:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by riju
Experentiaknowing,
I would be happy to answer any of your specific questions even if I have to repeat myself, please do not hesitate. Thanks
Thank you for your patience, I went back and reread much of what was already written a second time and will do so a third and fourth time as well before asking any more questions as it is not proper to put one wiling to explain through the burden of repeating themselves. It may still happen but it will not be on purpose or due to a lack of effort on my part.
Thank you for the summary, the description of the Arhat rings true. The description of having to descend once achieved reminds me greatly of the story written by Hermann Hesse of a man named Siddhartha who became Gautama Buddha. More here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_(novel)
Does anyone have any good links for the Lotus Sutra and the Lankavatara Sutra?
From what I have read already it appears the Buddhist have spent a great deal of time coming to understand the providences of the Astral realm the operations of it and those entities that govern the function of it, as well as mapping it out.
From my understanding the Astral realm is the finest manifestation of the physical realm, in the grosser or lower frequency layers it would appear that the Buddhists have conceived of a method of traversing said realms into higher and higher frequencies which as they become more refined are further removed from the material realm becoming something else altogether.
This is however not to say that this is not how things work, I am still working on understanding this way of thought, many thanks for the help. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 08:47:58 AM
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Hi Experientialknowing,
Here is a link for the Lankavatara Sutra. Many others can be found online.
http://www.purifymind.com/LankavataraSutra.htm
The Lankavatara is very good, but reads like a detailed techical manual and sort of builds up explaining from the perspective of the person. I have only started reading the Lotus Sutra, but it seems to start more from an overall perspective of "existence".
Regards,
Jeff
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Experientialknowing
USA
263 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 10:04:06 AM
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Thank you Jeff. Has anyone read this version I found on Amazon it seems to be praised for it's clarity and lack of the prerequisite of first being a Buddhist Scholar to understand what is being written.
http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B00...t_eos_detail
I also looked up the term Arhat and found I agree with the O.P. and the early Buddhist meaning of the word as those deemed Arhat are imperfect, subject to relapse and Ignorance.
Achieving the state of Arhat seems not only to be natural but not overly difficult by this definition of the early Buddhist schools and very likely is the state Yoga terminates in.
" SENSATIONS .
This is the fastest method of attaining ARAHAT ship or NOSELF experience."
The Yoga of Sensation known as Kriya is just such a vehicle to arrive at or close to this term Arhat. Or so it appears from my experience.
From this it is being perceived that Yoga takes a person to the Arhat stage but there evidently is yet more to do in a specific way.
It appears that the ancients that discovered yoga discovered a method of cheating their way forward with out the necessity of enduring experience and the wisdom that comes from it but just like all cheating it results in a hollow victory so there are still many blanks to fill in. Still much ignorance to be dispelled.
Still it appears to me that Yoga with its many pitfalls side distractions etc.... written of so often the minor and the major siddhas that are its companions are not without benefit though as one can approach Arhat stage in a more free less pain oriented manner and if wise enough be the first kind of horse with a nicer path to Buddahood.
It has always seemed to me Yoga was good but did not quite finish the process and that somehow Gautama had made it past the end of Yoga. This thread started by the O.P. certainly is supporting this supposition.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 10:28:35 AM
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Hi Riju,
Thanks for your kind words. I am also enjoying the discussion and will focus on your disagreement to be discussed section.
While I agree that the female component of the split could be defined as "love", I believe that it is a misleading translation with many connotations attached to the word. As one goes deep into consciousness (beyond normal human levels), one realizes that it is more like "pure desire" or compassion. The love of a mother comes close (not romantic love), but it is more like the pure desire of a flower to grow in the sun. The flower is not attached to anything, existence just wants it to grow and evolve. Emotions like fear and hate come into being because the human mind begins to start to attach that pure desire to things. From these attachments start the slippery slope which creates all of the issues.
I would agree with you that "sensations" or noticing the energy body is the fastest way to Arahat level. While doing this, one is focused in the moment and less susceptible to confusion in the mind caused memories from the past or projections into the future. I call it "full body listening" where one may silence the many threads/voices going on in the local mind, and begin to notice what is beyond it. This approach is common to all primordial paths, which is why I had mentioned the other traditions earlier. Does the Lotus Sutra define specific practices? I would be interested in comparing them to other traditions I am familiar with.
I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Treasure tower section of the Lotus Sutra. I will read the chapter so that I will be prepared for the discussion.
Best regards,
Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Aug 30 2013 10:34:03 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 30 2013 : 2:34:05 PM
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Hi Riju,
I had a chance to read the 12th chapter in the Lotus Sutra. I know your Treasure Tower Buddha well, in the gnostic Christian tradition, it goes by the name "Holy Spirit". As the Sutra chapter defines the Buddha, it manifests "inside" the Buddha field (or stable bubble of universal mind).
Best regards,
Jeff |
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Guatam Buddha vs yoga
