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crazymandrew
USA
121 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 05:22:58 AM
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Thinking in terms of manifestations or attraction. Would you say that Samyama is more powerful or what you truly believe is more powerful?
I've been experimenting with believing something is going to happen to me, believe in good moods, certain types of energies ect. I can say to truly believe something is difficult. This one guy told me that wanting something really badly you are often MANIFESTING more of the lack of that thing! Literally, cause your thoughts are dwelling on the fact that thing isn't in your reality!
One technique that seems to work is to be content. Just be confident that is coming.
Have any of you people experimented with believing as a manifestation tool? How does it compare to Samyama? |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 09:32:11 AM
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Wouldn't know how to begin evaluating the effectiveness of samyama alongside belief and other methods with that same purpose, but I've been doing samyama for about a year now. Use them both and give them lots of time with consistent repetition if that's what you are drawn to. To me, all the sutras have a counterpart which could stand for promoting and manifesting progress on the path directly. I don't think of that, or anything, during the practice, and just let the carry-over from deep meditation handle it. If anything, it might be more about deep meditation and the cultivation of inner silence, more than the exact technique, that makes things work. Samyama taps into that directly, in addition to being set up to promote and in turn also use the energetic side.
quote:
Originally posted by crazymandrew
wanting something really badly you are often MANIFESTING more of the lack of that thing!
Sounds plausible, and already contains a course of action that can't hurt. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 1:19:54 PM
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How about believing in Samyama?? Where does *that* fit in here? 
Love!
Carson  |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 1:44:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
How about believing in Samyama?? Where does *that* fit in here?
Love!
Carson
Or doing samyama with belief, which is how belief can transform our life, touching and releasing it in stillness. 
The guru is in you.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 9:20:01 PM
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"I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky. I think about it every night and day...spread my wings and fly away. I believe I can soar; I see me running through that open door...I believe I can fly, I believe I can fly, I believe I can fly."
Even though R. Kelly is probably not the prototype for spiritual development, I think those lyrics are nevertheless inspiring.
I believe I can samyamiiiizzzzeee...miracles... ...and sure enough, it keeps coming true!  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 9:45:12 PM
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Samyama is way more powerful than belief as a manifestation tool, because it causes manifestation in a balanced way. It doesn't just satisfy our ego, it does things the right way.
Belief as a tool to manifest is unbalanced, and yes Drew, it can manifest the opposite for the reason you mentioned; it emphasizes your belief in what is not real.
Think about the things in your life that already exist. Do you spend time "believing" them? Of course not; you just silently know and they continue to exist. "Believing" is someone thinking they have to put all this mental energy into making something exist that doesn't.
You may believe in God because you know he exists, but you don't put effort into it; you just know, and there is no feeling that something has to change.
Your ego thinks it has to force reality to change, but what has to happen is to silently change yourself. Then powerful things happen.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 10:23:11 PM
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Would samyama (or any practice?) still work if you absolutely, adamantly believed it would not?
Love,
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2012 : 10:55:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Would samyama (or any practice?) still work if you absolutely, adamantly believed it would not?
Great question.
I think I can adamantly and fervently believe that California doesn't exist, and if you tell me you're going to take me on a plane to this imaginary place I'm sure doesn't exist, I can say yes--just to disprove you. But because I decide to take the trip to validate my belief, my belief is susceptible to the chance that the destination may indeed exist, which could debunk my belief.
Similarly, if you wholeheartedly believe that Deep Mediation will not in any way, shape or form cultivate inner silence, but you practice DM using the correct technique, stillness will arise nevertheless, because you followed the technique--despite being a 100% skeptic. However, there has to be a willingness and desire to start practicing so you can verify your belief in the futility of the practice.
The mechanics of life and the dynamics of spiritual unfoldment trump and supersede any belief. Some beliefs will be verified, others will be revealed as being illusions.
Belief is a utilitarian function, not an absolute view. Useful, but not all-encompassing in its scope...seems like to me. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 22 2012 10:56:39 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 09:06:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
if you wholeheartedly believe that Deep Mediation will not in any way, shape or form cultivate inner silence, but you practice DM using the correct technique, stillness will arise nevertheless, because you followed the technique--despite being a 100% skeptic.
Can you absolutely know that this is true?
Love,
Carson
P.S. I haven't personally formulated an opinion on this inquiry... I'm just asking the questions and seeing where this goes. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 10:45:57 AM
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Interesting concept. I think it comes down to the definition of "wholeheartedly" in belief. If we are wholehearted in our belief, it can mean "knowing" or "beyond doubt". In true knowing, we see/know the truth. When we reside in the truth... doesn't California look much less real...?
Love & light,
Jeff |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 11:07:49 AM
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Hi All:
Here is a lesson that touches on the question of belief in practices:
Lesson 182 - Healthy Skepticism
http://www.aypsite.org/182.html
Bottom line: Some belief (or curiosity) is necessary to sit and practice, but not necessary to produce effects from practice. This has been observed by many. In fact, belief is more often an effect of practice than a cause. As they say, "Seeing is believing."
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 1:24:20 PM
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I guess my whole line of questioning came about because I know that it has been said that the only thing creating continuity between moments is our belief in continuity between moments. Meaning that if we hit a "tipping point" in collective belief, if more people believed that (for example) humans can fly unassisted, then it would be possible to fly unassisted. I've been playing with my own personal beliefs for a while now, and for me, I can say that my beliefs seem to "hold things together." I've yet to wake up with hair (I'm bald and have been playing with my belief that I am bald and wondering if I could wake up with hair if I simply believe that it is possible) but I have experienced some miraculous/impossible things as a result of believing/not believing things. This has become so "real" for me that I literally will not shut my car door if I am not looking at the keys in my hand. I know that, for me, if I put my keys in my pocket, lock and shut the car door, and then have a moment where I believe that I have left my keys in the car, it is very possible that I will have locked my keys in the car even though I had put my keys in my pocket prior to leaving the car. These experiences have led me to really question everything I believe and to watch many of these beliefs fall away along with the results of these beliefs. So, when this topic was started here on the forum it was natural for me to take it to inquiry... if I stopped believing that the practices work, would the practices stop working? If I stopped believing that it was possible for me to overload, would I stop overloading?
For me, I have enough evidence to suggest that if I stop believing something is impossible, it will become possible. And vice versa... If I believe something is impossible, it will be.
Love!
Carson
P.S> It should be mentioned here that in my experience it is not possible to "trick" oneself into believing something or not. You either believe or you do not. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 2:05:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
For me, I have enough evidence to suggest that if I stop believing something is impossible, it will become possible. And vice versa... If I believe something is impossible, it will be.
Completely agree.
p.s. I will help you work on your hair. Let's turn the believing into knowing... |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:15:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
if you wholeheartedly believe that Deep Mediation will not in any way, shape or form cultivate inner silence, but you practice DM using the correct technique, stillness will arise nevertheless, because you followed the technique--despite being a 100% skeptic.
Can you absolutely know that this is true?
You can't know it's true unless you try it! That's the trick, my brother--all of this stuff involves a direct experience. You have to buy the ticket and hop on the plane...there's no absolute truth in intellectual speculation. However, there SEEMS TO BE a cause-and-effect relationship in the mechanics of not only physical life (gravity, quantum physics, etc.), but also spiritual practices (karma).
In other words, whether or not you believe the stone will hit the ground when you drop it, the stone's gonna go plunk! because of the force of gravity.
The belief--whether in favor of or opposed to--will move you to validate the hypothesis. It's the scientific method...tried and true. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:24:07 PM
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BUT, is gravity ACTUALLY an absolute truth? What about levitation (which is a known byproduct of samyama with the Akasha sutra)? Is gravity only a truth because we have a collective belief that it is true?
Love!
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:28:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
For me, I have enough evidence to suggest that if I stop believing something is impossible, it will become possible. And vice versa... If I believe something is impossible, it will be.
You should join a hardcore traditional Christian church, where your entrance into the kingdom of heaven is based on your faith/belief...rather than spiritual practices and karma yoga. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:29:42 PM
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| Been there, done that, got a box of T-Shirts. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:31:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
BUT, is gravity ACTUALLY an absolute truth? What about levitation (which is a known byproduct of samyama with the Akasha sutra)? Is gravity only a truth because we have a collective belief that it is true?
I think we're on the same exact page, but my stipulation is: belief is not enough. Belief requires action. You can't just believe you can fly--you have to practice the Akaska - Lightness of Air sutra until it happens. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:35:48 PM
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But if you don't believe that Samyama works, and I mean absolutely believe that there is a zero percent chance of it having any effect, will it still work? In my experience, beliefs dictate possibilities. You believe it's possible, it is... you don't, it isn't.
Love!
Carson
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 7:45:46 PM
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Ah, gotcha. I guess that's where we disagree. I think one of the main symptoms of psychosis/schizophrenia is a staunch mental disbelief in a certain element of reality. If you try to deny some aspect of reality via your internal belief, that effort of negation can dig you into a deep hole--and I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. Your mind will try to negate the reality by creating hallucinations in an effort to satisfy your desire to NOT believe. Non-relational self-inqury.
Beliefs may set the scope of possiblities, but they aren't the determining factors in whether said possibilities will manifest or de-manifest (according to your formula: if you don't believe, it doesn't exist). Action, and stillness in action, is the determining factor, in my opinion.
Much love to you. |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 23 2012 7:46:35 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 8:34:31 PM
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Dear BodhiBro... there is always the possibility that because you believe that beliefs are not the determining factor in what is or is not possible, that that is the only thing creating the environment (for you) in which beliefs are not the determining factor in what is or what is not possible.  Here, we begin to get into "twisty-word-*ucky-*ucky" as we say in Canada.
I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone, of anything here. Just throwing out some inquiry that I am going through, just for fun.
Love!
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 8:45:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Here, we begin to get into "twisty-word-*ucky-*ucky" as we say in Canada.
LOL! It's a dance, isn't it? We're just doing the twisty-word-ucky-ucky dance...
Birds of a feather. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 9:11:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
LOL! It's a dance, isn't it? We're just doing the twisty-word-ucky-ucky dance...
Birds of a feather.
I should probably just go back to dancing to Backstreet Boys in my garage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV5b...feature=plcp
Love!
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2012 : 9:39:35 PM
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| Phenomenal. That bird's got some moves. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2012 : 06:34:36 AM
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Hi Carson and Bodhi,
Pardon the butting in here - took a bit to leave the parrot and the Backstreet Boys
My perspective on samyama is that in terms of bhakti, it is offering our intents and desires at the feet of the ishta, for Him/Her to do what they want with it. When I turn in my intent/desire in samyama, I don't give my ishta detailed instructions on "how" that should be manifested. The thing with samyama is that it *always* works, but not necessarily in the ways we think it should work. The Divine has a much broader and far-reaching vision than us - every intent will work for the benefit of the whole, and for our own growth which we may not even have the slightest inkling about.
Is belief necessary? Isn't it, to take up any practice? But beliefs are usually petty (albeit strong), and colored by various things in our past. In my experience, samyama takes the initial "belief" one step further - to "faith". Actually, a better word is a Sanskrit one, called "shraddha", which doesn't really have the most appropriate English equivalent; faith is closest. It is not mere belief, it is knowing without a doubt that whatever comes of releasing the intent in silence is perfect, even when it is out of line with our beliefs and desires for specific outcomes; hanging on tight to the ishta's feet as it may. We might do fervent samyama for a loved one's failing health, but they may succumb to the illness anyway. What then? Did the samyama/Divine fail us and our beliefs? The other question here is - since everything is unfolding perfectly anyway, does samyama change the course of things? I would say yes, but that is shraddha talking As my favorite character of all time, Aslan, of the Chronicles of Narnia says, "There is no way to know what might have been."
Over time, samyama has transcended all my silly beliefs. The only thing I need to know is what to ask for - it is always granted. Mostly, I'm now asking for clarity, perspective and acceptance of whatever comes. I have been doing samyama on Akasha for 3 years now, and still can't levitate; I suspect that may never happen. But.. my levitating may not be that good for the whole
P.S: Carson, I think you are pretty darned cute just the way you are.
Love,
kami |
Edited by - kami on Oct 24 2012 06:37:23 AM |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2012 : 08:22:34 AM
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I really like this word 'shraddha', thanks for sharing that. Whenever I'm desirous of something, I let the intention go into stillness, since I realize that the truth of what I am doesn't need the fulfillment of desires which come from the separate self. Then I simply trust and allow, this shraddha resonates, as I know whatever happens is best, allowing the desire to be fulfilled or not.
My two cents on the gravity debate, there are three major holes in any theory of gravity or objective universe.
Firstly, when I drop the rock, and it hits the ground, once it has hit the ground, the idea of it dropping to the ground is simply a memory, which happens now. There's no way to determine whether or not the rock was actually dropped, there's certainly a thought which says it dropped.
Secondly, believing that the rock and the ground exist is a belief system, and a belief system for which there is no convincing evidence. We only ever experience tactile and visual sense perceptions of these supposed objects mind labels 'rock' and 'ground'. There's no way you can somehow get outside of your sense perceptions, and find real objects which cause the sense perceptions. You just presuppose that sense perceptions refer to actual objects that cause the sense perceptions, but there's no evidence for this belief.
Thirdly, why is there gravity? There's no accepted answer to this question, there are multiple theories. Until I'm certain about the why, I'm always going to be skeptical about everything else.
Personally I neither accept the existence of an objective reality, or refute the existence. Either way would be dogmatic, I simply don't know, and am perfectly happy to remain in a state of unknowing. Perhaps it's possible that there both is and isn't an objective reality, it's simultaneously true and not true, if I were to bet, I'd bet on the confusing paradox
When it comes to siddhis, it seems there's so much more to life than we know or understand. I can't help but be open-minded. For example, any time I feel very unhappy, my mom who is very psychic and lives thousands of miles away in the UK, and will typically have no other communication with me, will call me up saying that she was sensing my unhappiness. I consider it highly possible that some saints have had special powers, if basic clairsentience has been seen to function in my daily life, this opens many possibilities.
Why does observation influence the behavior of electrons? Are electrons self-aware? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double...t_experiment
What on earth is actually going on here?!! The fact is, nobody really has a clue, there are just theories. |
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Is believing or Samyama more powerful?
