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kami
USA
921 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 11:49:22 AM
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Hi all,
Just wanted to share what has been arising here, and would welcome any thoughts, comments and sharing of experiences 
The initial seeing of is-ness was a subtle yet profound shift, and in the subsequent weeks, the following things are being noticed..
Firstly, dearly held beliefs were blown away. And now, any belief coming up seemingly on its own accord, is seen for what it is. And 100% of the time, it is quite humorous. And I can see how I have lived my life this long based on beliefs. The "mechanism" of the arising belief is what is capturing my interest; inquiry.. The same thing for desires, because it seems to me that all desires are in one way or other based on beliefs.
Secondly, a fascinating observation on interest. I have an escalated interest in whatever it is that I happen to be doing at the moment. There is no sense of boredom, because again, while being interested in the task, there is ongoing engagement in the mechanism of interest - peeking behind the curtain, so to speak. Yet, at the same time, the interest basically dwindles down to zero after the task ends. Although there may be a need to know something, say, in a discussion with someone, after a while it is no longer that interesting to continue to try to make my point. Weirdly, I quickly forget what it was that we were discussing. And this goes back to the first point about beliefs - I'm finding that any need to remain interested in something once it is over is somehow traced back to a belief. And all beliefs are pretty much useless.
Thirdly, the experience of bliss. It doesn't matter if I am identified with the ego, feeling resistance or allowing it, the bliss is always there, an unbroken chain. It is not an ecstatic experience that comes and goes, but an underlying new "baseline", like a faint perfume that lingers all day. And this feels like a "happy-for-no-reason, fearless, feeling invincible" kind of thing. And yet again, when I look at the ego entrapments above, they are all once again based on beliefs.
So, it comes down to this:
Beliefs, when *believed*, result in fears and desires, wants and don't wants, mine and yours, I and not I.. And even resistance at the most subtle level.. Duality.
Beliefs, when seen for what they are, ie, *not believed*, by means of relational inquiry, have no "hold", and fall away, allowing the baseline of bliss to be known.
Love,
kami |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 2:32:59 PM
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Yes what you are saying is witnessing. At first it is very noticeable, almost clunky, but amazing to see what has been holding you prisoner all these years. Some of what you say is the beginning of stillness in action. However at present you are witnessing stillness in action, it hasn't moved into unity or it would have become unnoticeable.
The underlying bliss is false. Inquire it away. The fall then convinces that the whole process is illusory and can lead to abandonment. Still it's pleasant enough but is still scenery. it develops into a kind of pride which stops the surrender completing its march towards total acceptance.
Don't get hung up on this though Kami, it's like your asking how far is it to the top. It really doesn't matter, as you are walking at your own pace and you will get there anyway. If you stumble over a few rocks or get knocked around by the wind then you will remember that this is all there is. The walk is what it's all about, there is no top |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 3:02:17 PM
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| I like this thread. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2012 : 11:10:32 AM
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Thanks, Karl and Near
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Yes what you are saying is witnessing. At first it is very noticeable, almost clunky, but amazing to see what has been holding you prisoner all these years. Some of what you say is the beginning of stillness in action. However at present you are witnessing stillness in action, it hasn't moved into unity or it would have become unnoticeable.
The underlying bliss is false. Inquire it away. The fall then convinces that the whole process is illusory and can lead to abandonment. Still it's pleasant enough but is still scenery. it develops into a kind of pride which stops the surrender completing its march towards total acceptance.
Don't get hung up on this though Kami, it's like your asking how far is it to the top. It really doesn't matter, as you are walking at your own pace and you will get there anyway. If you stumble over a few rocks or get knocked around by the wind then you will remember that this is all there is. The walk is what it's all about, there is no top
Karl, thank you for your insight. I didn't respond right away, because I wanted to see if this was true. And it is and it isn't. The "bliss" I describe is not an ecstatic kind of sensation, which I have experienced many times. It is not even a sensation actually. And I agree that it is witnessed, and hence, the object. When this is enquired into, there is dissolution of the witness and the bliss, as you say. But in retrospect, the dissolution of this into whatever, "seems" like bliss - more of a sense of just simply being, which feels like total contentment. And in that simply being, i.e., contentment, there is no witnessing either; there is "just happening".. So maybe bliss is the wrong word.
And thank you also for pointing out the journey. No matter how much I look into this, there is no "wanting" to be somewhere else. The wanting and longing was very much the case prior to the awakening glimpse/experience (if it can be called that) - there was always an anticipation of something else, other than what was. It was frustrating at times. However, the recent shift was in every way pretty anti-climactic, in that, it was *nothing* like I had imagined it would be. It was simply a 180-degree turn of the object I had been seeking becoming the subject, and then seeing directly that the subject is all there is. It was a little embarassing actually, to have missed it all along. So, now, if I want to be, say, in unity, I don't even know "where" that is or what to expect And if I don't where it is, I can't say I have an idea of "how" to get there. Does that make sense?
Simply out of curiosity, can you describe your current state of being? Say when you are in the process of writing the book - is there witnessing or unity or does it go back and forth? How do you know the difference? Resistance? I appreciate your razor-like insight, compassion and wisdom so very much. Thank you again.
Love,
kami |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2012 : 1:36:09 PM
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 you have to keep inquiring, at first it will be clunky, later it won't be noticed. Just balance with plenty of grounding and keep up the deep meditation and surrendered at all times.
The last bit of the glass is harder to empty than the full glass has been. There is no end to it, you have practised so long that you have the strength, patience and calm to keep working at the thin film of liquid remaining. Be contemplative in the emptying and you will see it in the infinity and growing struggle. You will see that you are the glass, drinker and liquid. You become married into unity, there is no mistaking it. Just like marriage it is not enough to be in unity, you must work harder and harder at it. When you do, there is no separate you. Two have become one for all time, there is never an alone anymore, no more wanting or becoming, you are.
I am not writing, the book writes me. I bend, the world bends, I bend. It isn't about being in the moment, I am the moment I am. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2012 : 6:18:03 PM
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Since this last post, many things are coming to light here..
Further confirmation about beliefs is one. No matter what the issue of resistance is, it can always be traced back to a belief. Most times, becoming aware of it seems to cause a loosening of the resistance. However, I've come to see one thing very clearly - it is very easy (and tempting) to step out of the resistance and "into" the witnessing. This results in instantaneous letting go of the resistance. But.. In order for the thing to be released permanently, the only way is to face it, to own it, and subject it to inquiry. There isn't a way out of this step (bypassing, as it has been called), at least for me. Which makes me think it is probably much easier to live on a mountaintop, alone, away from situations that bring issues up close and personal.. Way harder to be a "householder" on this path IMHO.
The other thing I've come to see is that most of us seem to have one core belief that drives us.. It's like the axis upon which our entire self rotates on - identities, personalities, likes and dislikes, career and partner choices, ie, everything that makes us who we are conceptually. Discovering that core belief, for me, was like extricating the mummy out of its layers of muslin, so those layers had nowhere to "stick" to, and fell away.. In the past, the approach was to peel the layers off one by one, but somehow, they were simultaneously replaced by fresh layers in a different color.. Perhaps this is the difference between psychotherapy and the process of awakening? One that replaces old beliefs with newer, prettier ones and the other that cuts through all of them.. Don't know.. Since this core belief has been let go of, I've felt unstable, falling endlessly.. Any foothold I grab onto turns out to be just another secondary belief..
Of course, there are many such secondary beliefs that pop up behind all the resistance I sense.. Each needs to be seen and cored so the falling continues..
Just some observations
Love,
kami |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2012 : 8:01:53 PM
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Your language and nuggets of self-inquiry are beautiful to read Kami, so I just wanted to share a few of my own self-inquiry thoughts...
Beliefs are fine. For instance, for someone that stumbles onto the AYP website and reads the first lessons, there has to be an element of belief for that person to embark on daily practices. Even to wake up in the morning and brush your teeth, you have to believe that it's a worthwhile endeavor. Then, you brush your teeth, and you see...ah, that belief is TRUE because brushing my teeth does indeed maintain oral hygiene. Similarly, I believed that AYP deep meditation would bring stillness into my life, and BAM!--it has! So, beliefs are not only okay, they are necessary. That's how we take risks and navigate through uncertainties in life.
It's funny--yesterday I listened to an Adyashanti interview in which he said that "everything you believe is not true". He flat out said, in his absolute, non-dualistic way: Nothing you believe is true. I refer to Adyashanti from time-to-time to remind myself of how NOT to practice self-inquiry. I'm not going to guru bash him, but that guy runs around in circles with his mental algorhythms and non-stop clever talk.
The beauty of relying on Deep Meditation as the primary means for cultivating abiding stillness is that you don't have to constantly discard, reject, negate or critique your beliefs--as Adyashanti would have you do. With Deep Meditation, it happens much more automatically without all the mental analysis and ego-battles.
For me, abiding inner silence lets me utilize which beliefs are WORKING and discard those that are NOT. But it's just borderline insane and despicably clever to say that ALL beliefs are not true. That's lopsided non-duality at its best--trying to negate all of manifestation. But, as Yogani says: HERE WE ARE. Let me repeat: HERE WE ARE. And here we are living in the dream of manifestation and operating within its rules, one of which allows our mind to validate the truth of our beliefs. Don't you think Yogani had the belief that his AYP website would help people? It took a leap of faith to launch it, and now his belief is being verified as TRUE. It is indeed helping people, and that act of service required a small element of belief.
Did Gandhi believe he could liberate India from British oppression? Yes. Did MLK Jr. believe he could substantially mitigate racial segregation? Yes. Do I believe I can practice small acts of kindness and creative works that can positively affect mine and others' lives? Yes.
What I'm saying is, when it comes to "beliefs"...don't throw out the baby with the bath water.  |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Oct 06 2012 10:19:44 PM |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2012 : 11:21:07 PM
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Hi Bodhi
Thank you for the kind words.. I see that my sharing lacked clarity. What's beauty in writing without clarity?
Firstly, I whole-heatedly agree with you about DM. Self-inquiry doesn't work without inner silence, as Yogani has reiterated in the lessons and books. It can only be effective if it is relational. The natural evolution of that silence cultivated in DM has been inquiry for me. Even 12 months ago, I was not drawn to it, and avoided all topics wandering into jnana yoga. Inquiry came up spontaneously, much to my own disbelief (pun fully intended ). Thus, I can relate that ALL forms of inquiry, if non-relational, can (and do) easily become ego-based, whether it is Ramana's, Byron Katie's or Jed McKenna's "brand".
The inquiry I'm talking about here is not a gory ego-killing-ego kind of thing. It is more like bursting of a soap bubble. If we just see it for what it is, then no violent killing of anything is necessary. And it isn't so much the belief itself, but how we attach to it, hold it, and let it control us. That is the resistance. It doesn't matter what the belief is, but if it causes resistance to what is, a "good" belief is as much of an impediment as a "bad" belief. This is what Adya talks about.
In your example above, yes we can maintain meticulous oral hygiene. But what if we get a cavity that needs a root canal? How will we respond to it? Will there be resistance to it, even subtle (like how could this have happened when I'm such a stickler for brushing my teeth, etc)? Or is there total surrender to what is? History is full of examples of egoic beliefs changing the landscape of humanity. What was greatness to a nation and the world was cowardice to an assassin.
Every belief is associated with doership and/or expectation. If I believe that someone loves me and they say they don't, I'm hurt and disappointed and angry. Belief = resistance to what is. What is the truth of it? He/she does not have the feeling of love towards "me". Why is there resistance to it? Because I believed that they did/should. But if I see through it using discrimination and inquire relationally, the belief bubble holding the story together bursts... It's let go of and I'm once again in alignment with what is unfolding at the moment. What I was trying to say in the previous post is that all resistance to what is can be traced back to some belief.
As far as I know, (as Karl says above about writing his book), this incredible gift of AYP "just happens" through Yogani; no ego-driven belief that "he" is doing anything. Nondoing in doing. That is the difference between a sage and a world leader (even the greatest) IMHO - relinquishing doership.
Not sure if it makes any sense now
Love,
kami |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 03:06:52 AM
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It all makes sense. Every single word of it. Like the patter of rain, each individual word leaves a signature splash--a unique drop forever tied to the flow of the whole downpour.
Ah..."surrendering to what is"...such a tricky one, that is. We should all sip tea, sit around together, and accept "what is". Then we could stand up, walk around, and talk a little about "what is". Then, some of us could write books--especially if we were really skilled with language--about what life is like when you surrender to "what is", and those select few who write the books (or hold satsangs and retreats) could teach you how to surrender to "what is". And then we could all agree that our individuality is an illusion, and there is only the One, and that these bodies with fingerprints and curves and subtle hairs and multiple shades of color were just cruel jokes that the One played on Itself due to boredom and loneliness. LOL.
Sorry, humor is a coping mechanism for those of us who still acknowledge the reality of individuality. But seriously, to me, "surrendering to what is" is just as much about acceptance of present circumstances as it is in participating and co-creating in what "will be". You can't change the past, but you can change the future. So, to me, the way Adyashanti speaks about it (and others like him), his version of "what is" has a very stagnant feeling. A very passive, safe, and removed posture from the flow of life. It seems like he's not surfing the waves--he's just sitting on the beach and watching them crash on shore. But at least he's finally got his hands on "what is". So good for him! And for anyone that wants to sit and not jump in the water. Honestly, to each his own.
All I'm saying is that "what is" is constantly changing, and we have an opportunity to direct and creatively participate in the manifestation of that flow. That's called active surrender. That's called stillness in action.
In terms of "resistance", it really depends on the situation. If someone was attacking your loved one or your personal body, would you resist that (self-defense, for instance)? If I tried to attack Adyashanti's wife, would he sit and watch and say: I can't defend you, Mukti--that would be resisting "what is", and for those of us who are awakened, we cannot pose resistance to "what is". See what I'm saying? In "The Secrets of Wilder", John Wilder intervenes and resists the violence that a vicious man is trying to inflict on his wife, the mother of his child. So, it seems that resistance can play a vital role in living a life of active surrender--at times.
In terms of the equation "Belief = resistance to what is"...I think that comes from the exact Adyashanti talk I was referencing above. Probably no coincidence. Again, I see his weak formula as a stagnant interpretation of the reality of "what is", i.e. focusing on stillness by itself, without moving into the flow of stillness in action. Here's a better formula: Vision + Desire + Action = Achievement. Guess where that one came from?
Believe what you want to believe, including the belief that believing is a resistance to "what is", (Ha! contemplate the irony in that observation of Adyashanti's non-dual rhetoric).
I'll just end by quoting the lovely but troubled Janis Joplin: "You know you got it, if it makes you feel good." Much love to you, Kami.  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 03:19:14 AM
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Nice thoughts.
Live on a mountaintop or fight in a war. It's whatever comes up, it doesn't matter which one happens because that's the medicine your getting.
It's only conceptual that you think it's peeling an onion or pricking a soap bubble ( I like pricking a soap bubble ) it's not necessary to do either. It's only necessary to recognise that it is an object. It's OK to recognise that your arm is an object and that it is part of you. Self inquiry will show you one side of a thing, then match it with the other side of it. Go back and forwards until you have zipped or knitted both together. When you begin to do this automatically then everything is one.
It doesn't matter if you find that something jerks you out of this feeling of unity because its not a fixed point. New things come in like electrical waves into a radio . This is why it's important to adopt surrender. The feeling that you can't do anything about it, that. You accept each lesson with grace and love. The radio spits and crackles and turns the waves into sound. That you are neither the listener, the radio or the waves is unimportant.
The realisation "I am not these things" is balanced by"I accept all these things" . Sometimes it's less stormy and sometimes more. You are built to cope with both. If you wish yourself away from the weather then you are adopting a rejection. It means you are no longer in balance, feel it as you sway on the tightrope, how it is you that pushes yourself out of balance, it is not circumstance that does that, it's perception. You believe you have control ......even if you do nothing about it.
Does that preclude leaving your family and hiding on a mountaintop ? No it doesn't, recognise you have no control, be without judgement, accept what will be, inquire deeply. Then, if it is to be, you will leave and walk to the mountain, there will be no feeling of choice or control. You will go because that is your nature.
In time then you realise there is only 'I' . Mountaintop or torture chamber. You will see that you don't move at all, it was an illusion, but neither is anything a "fait accompli" to believe that you are above it, unaffected by it is equally foolish. Accept that you are affected, that you are in pain, are hungry, are frightened, are upset. There is no failure in these things, the failure is when we don't accept, inquire and let go of notions of rejection or attachment. Do not expect to rid yourself of fear, accept fear.
The more you grab snatches away from the sleep, the more times you will be awake to what is. Eventually you are awake more than you are asleep and sometimes you take a little nap because staying awake takes effort. accept it all.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 03:31:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
All I'm saying is that "what is" is constantly changing, and we have an opportunity to direct and creatively participate in the manifestation of that flow. That's called active surrender. That's called stillness in action.
We cross posted. This is the crux of it. its realising that it is constant adaption.
So, in the case of Adys it has no relevance if he has or has not achieved perfect balance. It is only our perception that messes with us because it reflects we are not yet good enough or that Adys kidding himself. Then inquire and see how it is. Fully accept and the zip draws into unity. Nothing is left, all burned away. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 03:42:14 AM
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Solid, Karl.
But rest assured, I've got my eyes on you, kid.  [devious chuckle] LOL...tough love. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 03:57:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Solid, Karl.
But rest assured, I've got my eyes on you, kid. [devious chuckle] LOL...tough love.
I'm up for that |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 08:21:23 AM
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Hi Bodhi,
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
All I'm saying is that "what is" is constantly changing, and we have an opportunity to direct and creatively participate in the manifestation of that flow. That's called active surrender. That's called stillness in action.
Yes, exactly. Everything is in fluid motion. And we have always had the opportunity to direct the flow. Not only opportunity, but that is how it has always been - what we do in this moment determines the next moment (or the next many decades..). And yes, active surrender does result in stillness in action; the nondoing in doing, when the doer is relinquished. None of this is anything that any of us can "have", and if we think we do, that needs to be subjected to who is claiming to own it. I was only trying to describe my particular journey the way it is happening here, and doing a shoddy job of it
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
In terms of "resistance", it really depends on the situation. If someone was attacking your loved one or your personal body, would you resist that (self-defense, for instance)? If I tried to attack Adyashanti's wife, would he sit and watch and say: I can't defend you, Mukti--that would be resisting "what is", and for those of us who are awakened, we cannot pose resistance to "what is". See what I'm saying? In "The Secrets of Wilder", John Wilder intervenes and resists the violence that a vicious man is trying to inflict on his wife, the mother of his child. So, it seems that resistance can play a vital role in living a life of active surrender--at times.
Resistance to what is is not the same as don't defend yourself or your loved ones. At least that is not what I was describing. Even that defending is stillness in action, because that is the thing to do in the moment, not driven by egoic anxiety or impulse or attachment. There is a difference, and clearly I cannot articulate that difference.. All I know is that if I need to defend my kids, the Kali in me will come forth in full force - and wholly because of anxiety and attachment
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
In terms of the equation "Belief = resistance to what is"...I think that comes from the exact Adyashanti talk I was referencing above. Probably no coincidence. Again, I see his weak formula as a stagnant interpretation of the reality of "what is", i.e. focusing on stillness by itself, without moving into the flow of stillness in action. Here's a better formula: Vision + Desire + Action = Achievement. Guess where that one came from?
Actually, I have not heard that talk. I have many of his talks, but have not yet come across this about beliefs. Which one is it? Do you remember? Your formula is perfectly lovely. And that comes from one of Yogani's books if I remember correctly
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I'll just end by quoting the lovely but troubled Janis Joplin: "You know you got it, if it makes you feel good." Much love to you, Kami.
I don't know I got it, cause the it can't be had, and it ain't making me feel good 
Love to you too. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 08:47:09 AM
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Hi Karl,
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Live on a mountaintop or fight in a war. It's whatever comes up, it doesn't matter which one happens because that's the medicine your getting.
It's only conceptual that you think it's peeling an onion or pricking a soap bubble ( I like pricking a soap bubble ) it's not necessary to do either. It's only necessary to recognise that it is an object. It's OK to recognise that your arm is an object and that it is part of you. Self inquiry will show you one side of a thing, then match it with the other side of it. Go back and forwards until you have zipped or knitted both together. When you begin to do this automatically then everything is one.
True, no need for concepts at all. Everything is an object, with the only one subject, "I". All of this writing is just a feeble attempt to describe what the process of surrendering is as happening here. The knitting together is something that comes automatically with surrender to what is (at the risk of irritating Bodhi )
quote:
Originally posted by karl
It doesn't matter if you find that something jerks you out of this feeling of unity because its not a fixed point. New things come in like electrical waves into a radio . This is why it's important to adopt surrender. The feeling that you can't do anything about it, that. You accept each lesson with grace and love. The radio spits and crackles and turns the waves into sound. That you are neither the listener, the radio or the waves is unimportant.
Beautiful. Yes, exactly. I should leave writing/expressing to those that do it well
quote:
Originally posted by karl
The realisation "I am not these things" is balanced by"I accept all these things" . Sometimes it's less stormy and sometimes more. You are built to cope with both. If you wish yourself away from the weather then you are adopting a rejection. It means you are no longer in balance, feel it as you sway on the tightrope, how it is you that pushes yourself out of balance, it is not circumstance that does that, it's perception. You believe you have control ......even if you do nothing about it.
Does that preclude leaving your family and hiding on a mountaintop ? No it doesn't, recognise you have no control, be without judgement, accept what will be, inquire deeply. Then, if it is to be, you will leave and walk to the mountain, there will be no feeling of choice or control. You will go because that is your nature.
There is absolutely no need to go anywhere And this is something I've struggled with off and on - not to leave my family, but whether to continue working as an example. When bhakti hits from all sides, its all I can do to not call it quits so time can be spent in imagined silence, practices and inquiry. Recently however, I've noticed that when I am involved in my work, there is no thought of whether I should be doing it, no thought of what next, etc. There is total absorption, and joy in whatever I happen to be doing - active surrender to the flow. So your comment on feeling of choice resonates well.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
In time then you realise there is only 'I' . Mountaintop or torture chamber. You will see that you don't move at all, it was an illusion, but neither is anything a "fait accompli" to believe that you are above it, unaffected by it is equally foolish. Accept that you are affected, that you are in pain, are hungry, are frightened, are upset. There is no failure in these things, the failure is when we don't accept, inquire and let go of notions of rejection or attachment. Do not expect to rid yourself of fear, accept fear.
Yes, this is the crux of true surrender, and releasing resistance IMHO. And to add to it, I'd say, brutal honesty with oneself is a pre-requisite to surrender. If I believe I'm beyond something, I've lost the opportunity to accept. And I've come to see I'm not there (clearly because I'm here!).. There's that about belief again
Love,
kami
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 10:50:20 AM
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Solid, Karl.
But rest assured, I've got my eyes on you, kid. [devious chuckle] LOL...tough love. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 11:30:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Solid, Karl.
But rest assured, I've got my eyes on you, kid. [devious chuckle] LOL...tough love.
De ja vu or Stereo, I never can tell. Anyway I'm up for it (squared ). |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 11:48:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Karl,
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Live on a mountaintop or fight in a war. It's whatever comes up, it doesn't matter which one happens because that's the medicine your getting.
It's only conceptual that you think it's peeling an onion or pricking a soap bubble ( I like pricking a soap bubble ) it's not necessary to do either. It's only necessary to recognise that it is an object. It's OK to recognise that your arm is an object and that it is part of you. Self inquiry will show you one side of a thing, then match it with the other side of it. Go back and forwards until you have zipped or knitted both together. When you begin to do this automatically then everything is one.
True, no need for concepts at all. Everything is an object, with the only one subject, "I". All of this writing is just a feeble attempt to describe what the process of surrendering is as happening here. The knitting together is something that comes automatically with surrender to what is (at the risk of irritating Bodhi )
quote:
Originally posted by karl
It doesn't matter if you find that something jerks you out of this feeling of unity because its not a fixed point. New things come in like electrical waves into a radio . This is why it's important to adopt surrender. The feeling that you can't do anything about it, that. You accept each lesson with grace and love. The radio spits and crackles and turns the waves into sound. That you are neither the listener, the radio or the waves is unimportant.
Beautiful. Yes, exactly. I should leave writing/expressing to those that do it well
quote:
Originally posted by karl
The realisation "I am not these things" is balanced by"I accept all these things" . Sometimes it's less stormy and sometimes more. You are built to cope with both. If you wish yourself away from the weather then you are adopting a rejection. It means you are no longer in balance, feel it as you sway on the tightrope, how it is you that pushes yourself out of balance, it is not circumstance that does that, it's perception. You believe you have control ......even if you do nothing about it.
Does that preclude leaving your family and hiding on a mountaintop ? No it doesn't, recognise you have no control, be without judgement, accept what will be, inquire deeply. Then, if it is to be, you will leave and walk to the mountain, there will be no feeling of choice or control. You will go because that is your nature.
There is absolutely no need to go anywhere And this is something I've struggled with off and on - not to leave my family, but whether to continue working as an example. When bhakti hits from all sides, its all I can do to not call it quits so time can be spent in imagined silence, practices and inquiry. Recently however, I've noticed that when I am involved in my work, there is no thought of whether I should be doing it, no thought of what next, etc. There is total absorption, and joy in whatever I happen to be doing - active surrender to the flow. So your comment on feeling of choice resonates well.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
In time then you realise there is only 'I' . Mountaintop or torture chamber. You will see that you don't move at all, it was an illusion, but neither is anything a "fait accompli" to believe that you are above it, unaffected by it is equally foolish. Accept that you are affected, that you are in pain, are hungry, are frightened, are upset. There is no failure in these things, the failure is when we don't accept, inquire and let go of notions of rejection or attachment. Do not expect to rid yourself of fear, accept fear.
Yes, this is the crux of true surrender, and releasing resistance IMHO. And to add to it, I'd say, brutal honesty with oneself is a pre-requisite to surrender. If I believe I'm beyond something, I've lost the opportunity to accept. And I've come to see I'm not there (clearly because I'm here!).. There's that about belief again
Love,
kami
The 'do or not to do' is something I cover in my book. I think it's a big chunk of enfolding. Mostly it is happening at a point when we have partially 'intellectually' mastered the understanding and nature of who we are and we might have a degree of natural unity happening off and on. It's the verge of waking up. Just like when we wake from sleep, we can be groggy and then slip back into the comfort of sleep many times before we finally awake.
You can't force this point because it is before unity is fully happening. So, instead you can accept that you don't know what you should do, that you are buffeted by indecision and that how it is supposed to be. You are not really making a decision at all, it's only a belief as you call it, simply thoughts that masquerade as a need for control. You still believe you are in control, even though you can intellectually understand that you are not.
It's not as if I have overcome all this either. I'm not 'there' if in fact such a thing exists. I now crave the thoughts that come up because they have become fewer with time. I like the challenge and don't worry if I don't have an answer. Each challenge propels me into the core and sheds more rubbish. Constant cleaning is what is required. Have fun. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 12:26:33 PM
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Whoa, how did I double post? I swear I was typing a new response to Kami's latest post from my smartphone, and I must have pressed a wrong button. LOL. Now I'm on my netbook.
Stereo! You know, I have a twin brother, and when we played little league baseball together, our coach would ask us a question, and we would often respond at the same exact time, with the same words, and he would say: "Stereo!"
Anyway, onto more bhakti-fueled, love-infused mumbling for Kami. Kami, here is a link to the Adyashanti talk re: his conjecture that all beliefs are not true ( gag me with a spoon):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oge...ture=related
False humility, I tell you, false humility. Making the witness state the ultimate state of realization. Listen to the tone, listen to him secretly delight in the cleverness of having tasted the witness state and now espousing his new view on reality. He's an expert on reality and "what is"! Now that's he transcended his ego, he can talk so masterfully about its foibles. It's a magic show, a sleight of hand, a matador waving his red cape so the raging bull (in the form of a curious spiritual speaker) can run through and keep coming back for more talks (or more books). Remember, there's a pay check and a consequential dinner on the table. There's a survival mechanism still in play.
I would just be weary of swallowing certain statements of absolutism that many of these non-dual teachers make. "Nothing you believe is true" is an absolute statement, to me. Ironically, it's very false and phony and highly impractical, again, to me. It's not very useful, really, unless you want to capture the attention of others in describing your current state of elevated awareness. What's far more useful is saying something like: "Beliefs are useful mental models that can help a person explore new territory and verify the truth of what is still unknown in life." A belief is not very useful unless it can be validated. You can validate the belief that you have the capability to deepen your experience of divinity and life. That's all. It's just a matter of usefulness and making friends with the mind, rather than holding some absolute posture that all thoughts/beliefs are untrue (again, gag me with a spoon). What about this: thoughts/beliefs are an external reflection of the inner, silent truth that likes being expressed through manifestation (Ahhhh...a breath of fresh air ). |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 12:56:46 PM
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Yes, that seems right. You have to know instinctively that there is a balance, or a centre to the turning wheel. If you don't yet know it then you spin some distance from the centre and that is slower turning the further inwards you go, but its not the 'imaginary' still point.
If you are trapped somewhere from that still point then you can witness that position but you don't have the compass accurately set up in order to intuit the null point.
I imagine it like being adrift in an infinite sea. The witness can let you see how you are adrift and provide some framework to accept it. Until you can get the compass working it is hard to find the actual position. The compass always points to stillness, but you can easily believe that you have that stillness on the intellectual level, its like you say to yourself 'oh yeah I know where I am' and for a while you get comfort, just before you realise just how infinite the sea and how lost you really are.
You never actually find your bearing once you get the compass set up, instead it is like dropping anchor at any point. It is a home position regardless of how big the ocean is. Once the anchor is dropped you don't need to know where you are anymore, because everywhere is there anyway. You are the sea, the sea is you. Instant oneness.
The only way to get the compass accurate is refining. Constant polishing. It is never, ever completely finished, it must be always attended to. Like cleaning the lens of a lighthouse to make sure the light can be seen. It will get dirty and obscure unless it receives constant attention.
I often wonder if one day there will be no need for this incessant polishing, but I don't mind because it feels like service, a labour of love for one I will never fully know, so I just do it and the cantering precedes from that.
Adys story happens somewhere on the periphery of that which is. It's an interesting story, but that's all it is. I have interesting stories about myself polishing the lens, but I can never fully know why. |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 12:58:00 PM
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Gosh!!!!! Love that video!
Bodhi, thank you for that link. It clarified all that I've been trying to say here. Pardon me, but I don't see any false humility here or him trying to state anything grandiose.. Funny how each of us perceives such teachings (or anything, for that matter).. Makes perfect sense to me in the context of what I'm finding in my own direct experience, and that is to remove the filter of beliefs so we can see more clearly. That's all. So simply and elegantly stated
Karl, thanks!
Love,
kami |
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 1:05:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
The only way to get the compass accurate is refining. Constant polishing. It is never, ever completely finished, it must be always attended to. Like cleaning the lens of a lighthouse to make sure the light can be seen. It will get dirty and obscure unless it receives constant attention.
We cross-posted
Yes, polishing is another concept (like blowing soap bubbles) and a very good one. Each of us will find a way to polish the lens, with plenty of trial and error along the way. It's all fun, and all roads lead home.
Grateful for the opportunity to share here..
Much love,
kami |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2012 : 1:35:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Gosh!!!!! Love that video!
LOL!!! My well-explained deconstruction of the video did not carry through, and instead, you have used it as an affirmation of your own self-inquiry. Blast it all! My sabotage efforts are failing.
Kidding, kidding. Glad it is working for you. Rock on. |
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lufa1212
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2012 : 07:30:01 AM
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Hi Kami, Bodhi Tree and karl,
I enjoyed this thread immensely...thanks for all your views. Acceptance is sure the key word in this journey.
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Originally posted by Kami
However, I've come to see one thing very clearly - it is very easy (and tempting) to step out of the resistance and "into" the witnessing. This results in instantaneous letting go of the resistance. But.. In order for the thing to be released permanently, the only way is to face it, to own it, and subject it to inquiry.
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I noticed this too..
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Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Here's a better formula: Vision + Desire + Action = Achievement.
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How about Vision + desire + Action = ??? ...acceptance of what happens...achievement/non-ahievement
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Originally posted by karl:
In time then you realise there is only 'I' . Mountaintop or torture chamber. You will see that you don't move at all, it was an illusion, but neither is anything a "fait accompli" to believe that you are above it, unaffected by it is equally foolish. Accept that you are affected, that you are in pain, are hungry, are frightened, are upset. There is no failure in these things, the failure is when we don't accept, inquire and let go of notions of rejection or attachment. Do not expect to rid yourself of fear, accept fear.
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...the ego tries to strain its neck out in every subtle/non subtle way...and you have hammered it well karl...there are to be no expectations of ever getting rid of the fear and other such feelings/emotions...keep working...keep inquiring and keep letting it go...this is what it all looks like as of now.
lufa
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kami
USA
921 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2012 : 1:25:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lufa1212
How about Vision + desire + Action = ??? ...acceptance of what happens...achievement/non-ahievement
Hi Lufa,
Love that formula!!
Relinquishing the doer and the enjoyer
Love,
kami |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2012 : 2:06:22 PM
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rather: Desire+Vision+Action =
Desire (Bhakti) comes first! |
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Beliefs, interest, and bliss
