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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 7:38:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Christi, Katrine, Kevin and all, 
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
I'm nowhere near as advanced as you all are, but for me, at this point in my journey, the process of surrender is usually a releasing INTO attachments not a releasing OF attachments. There is a subtle difference for me here.
For me, surrender often is not a letting go of attachments, at least not at this time. For me, surrender is letting go of trying to change anything, including the stuff I'm attached to. For me, this is I interpret the "seeing" I believe Katrine is talking about. I can't seem to surrender to anything. All I can do is become aware of what is actually happening, then whatever happens is what happens. If there is a releasing of attachments then that is what happens, but that, for me, is rare. Usually there is just a seeing of the attachment and the surrender is just a letting go of trying to change that which is seen. Whenever I try to change anything there is only more struggle and tension. When I see, and accept what I see without judgement or trying to change it, that to me is surrender... even without the dropping of anything. Stuff will either drop or it won't... really has nothing to do with "me." All I can really hope for is to see what is actually here and surrender to that (with no expectation of releasing or changing anything).
Not sure if I've been able to properly explain the subtle difference I see between releasing of attachments and releasing into attachments, but there it is... my best attempt. 
Love!
Carson 
Dear Carson,
You may not know it, but you are a very important person for me. Back a year and some ago when I first stumbled to AYP, I was a horses ass to you. I didn't mean to be, but I was overwhelmed by a number of things at the time. I'm unaccustomed being around people and showing them my love and my ishta to walk with them until time wears itself out. I'm a big dope that jumps on people like a big wet dog. And you were gracious to me, you gave me a tremendous gift. I'm very grateful to you. Do not sell yourself short.
You are in fact a glorious being, with much wonderment and grace coming your way.
Your insight is in fact quite astute.
As a talented AYP instructor I know you know this one thing; perhaps
you have stopped pondering it for a moment;
You, all that you are Carson, within the worlds of form, are a sensory
object. Carson just the way you are. You are a sensory object. Within
the silience which is within you, there is the silent witness and
there is Carson, who is a sensory object, and all other sensory
objects.
Being comfortable in your own skin, even when the skin isn't
necessarily lustrous, WHILE walking with the Self, the silent
witness, is our calling.
Now might someday our outer selves so shine that we are like
little Buddhas of compassion and wisdom? Maybe. Maybe not.
It's NOT IMPORTANT. Nobody is keeping score.
The One loves beat up old pound puppies with their left ear torn
off (and I should know.. I'm ear-less), as much as Buddhas.
You are not JUST your impediments that cause you pain. That is just
one percent of you, right now. Don't sweat it bro.
Have faith. I have utmost faith in you and your path.
And please get over this 'not as advanced crap' you big doofus.
The Self causes the flows to go where they will, lifting up part of
Itself on the One's schedule, then moving it down. None of us can take
any credit for anything whatsoever. You've almost certainly carried me
on your back for a thousand miles in another world, you big doofus.
There is no such thing as one is greater than another.
Kev |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 7:40:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
Katrine, Kevincann,
_/\_
Being of use, is not the same as being of use to anyone. It is rather, expressing in this moment; creativity; and flow.
The One supports the One.
Carson, your releasing into attachments IS releasing of attachments.
Can you release into the ecstatic energy in the legs?
Namaste
Nicely stated, oh sage of the hinterlands.
;-)
Kev |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 11:06:32 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
When something is clearly seen, then it is dropped.
Well perhaps I've just never seen (much) clearly then.  (And I'm not saying that facetiously... I realize that this is a very real possibility). Either way, I feel like sharing an example to better illustrate what I'm trying to say.
I have many personal tendencies that could easily be labeled as attachments. I have "seen" that I have attachments to things like; clarity, sensual pleasure (including ecstatic energy flows), altered/expanded states of consciousness, ideas about awakening/enlightenment etc etc etc... I have seen these attachments, and to me, it seems pretty "clear." But the seeing of these (particular) attachments has not resulted in the dropping or releasing of them. But, there *has* been a surrendering to the reality that there are these attachments and it's been noticed that life is lived in a much more relaxed and enjoyable state (for the most part) having surrendered to these tendencies.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
That is easy to do with a burning stick, because you can look at it, but most of our troubles are not so obvious, because they are rooted in the mind.
And see, this, is where the troubles with ecstatic energy come in. It can be very tricky this ecstatic energy thing (at least for me). The attachment to the ecstasy can be very subtle and also very easy to "brush off" and not look directly at. At least that is my experience. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Then the same thing happens just like seeing the burning stick in your hand, you drop it.
Who drops it?  Hahaha, just being an ass. But in all seriousness, this is where it all dissolves for me. As soon as I see myself "choosing to drop" (or trying to drop) something, it becomes readily apparent that this is an ego ploy and I'm trying to solve mental problems with the mind. As soon as that is seen the desire to drop anything is dropped and all goes silent.
Something I have come to realize recently is that there is a personal tendency for me to want to align my own personal experience up with those who I have put on a pedestal (meaning those who I see as "more awake/clear" than I am). What I've come to realize is that no matter who or how often others tell me "this is what enlightenment is like" it doesn't make any difference. My experience is my experience, my path is my path. I cannot walk in another's footsteps and no one can walk my journey for me. So you, or Katrine or Yogani or anyone can proclaim that "ecstatic bliss is the end-game of yoga" (or anything else) all they want... but that is going to have to be verified by me (for me), through personal experience. Having someone else tell me "the Truth" doesn't have me knowing it through personal experience. And I've found that trying to fit my personal experience into someone else's framework only results in frustration, detours and delays in coming to a deeper and clearer understanding of Truth for myself. I can only ever live from where I am... I can't live according to someone else's "Truth." So, until I come to know the Truth that "ecstasy is the end game of yoga" for myself, I'm just going to have to reserve judgement until then... until I come to "the end."
Thanks again for sharing your clarity and perspective with me.
Love!
Carson |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 11:28:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
When something is clearly seen, then it is dropped.
Well perhaps I've just never seen (much) clearly then. (And I'm not saying that facetiously... I realize that this is a very real possibility). Either way, I feel like sharing an example to better illustrate what I'm trying to say.
I have many personal tendencies that could easily be labeled as attachments. I have "seen" that I have attachments to things like; clarity, sensual pleasure (including ecstatic energy flows), altered/expanded states of consciousness, ideas about awakening/enlightenment etc etc etc... I have seen these attachments, and to me, it seems pretty "clear." But the seeing of these (particular) attachments has not resulted in the dropping or releasing of them. But, there *has* been a surrendering to the reality that there are these attachments and it's been noticed that life is lived in a much more relaxed and enjoyable state (for the most part) having surrendered to these tendencies.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
That is easy to do with a burning stick, because you can look at it, but most of our troubles are not so obvious, because they are rooted in the mind.
And see, this, is where the troubles with ecstatic energy come in. It can be very tricky this ecstatic energy thing (at least for me). The attachment to the ecstasy can be very subtle and also very easy to "brush off" and not look directly at. At least that is my experience. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Then the same thing happens just like seeing the burning stick in your hand, you drop it.
Who drops it? Hahaha, just being an ass. But in all seriousness, this is where it all dissolves for me. As soon as I see myself "choosing to drop" (or trying to drop) something, it becomes readily apparent that this is an ego ploy and I'm trying to solve mental problems with the mind. As soon as that is seen the desire to drop anything is dropped and all goes silent.
Something I have come to realize recently is that there is a personal tendency for me to want to align my own personal experience up with those who I have put on a pedestal (meaning those who I see as "more awake/clear" than I am). What I've come to realize is that no matter who or how often others tell me "this is what enlightenment is like" it doesn't make any difference. My experience is my experience, my path is my path. I cannot walk in another's footsteps and no one can walk my journey for me. So you, or Katrine or Yogani or anyone can proclaim that "ecstatic bliss is the end-game of yoga" (or anything else) all they want... but that is going to have to be verified by me (for me), through personal experience. Having someone else tell me "the Truth" doesn't have me knowing it through personal experience. And I've found that trying to fit my personal experience into someone else's framework only results in frustration, detours and delays in coming to a deeper and clearer understanding of Truth for myself. I can only ever live from where I am... I can't live according to someone else's "Truth." So, until I come to know the Truth that "ecstasy is the end game of yoga" for myself, I'm just going to have to reserve judgement until then... until I come to "the end."
Thanks again for sharing your clarity and perspective with me.
Love!
Carson
Carson,
You are an honest man.
Let me tell you, spiritual seekers by the MILLIONS use their mirror neurons (you should read abou them; very educational) and copy another person's way. They copy Buddha. They copy Master Bigshotto-siddhius. They desire to be free from suffering, the suffering from being a prisoner of their own conditioned mind, so they try the standard human thing of copying SOMEONE ELSES conditioned mind!
But you are better than that. You want the real stuff for yourself.
I think that's wonderful.
You know what? I disagree with about 50% of everything ever written or said by anyone. You know why? They are just copying someone elses words who has had the genuine experience, and they got it second hand.
Not a lot of people are willing to face death every day and twice on sunday, as that what the spiritual path is about; the death of that which hinders.
Nearly everyone goes grasping afer God; or some set of beliefs which comforts them.
You USED to be that way, and now you are breaking free.
Carson, you are NOT stagnant in your practices. You are NOT having
problems. Man, I want to shake you! You are waking up!
Woot! Go Carson.
Namaste,
Kevin |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 01:01:19 AM
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Hi BuddhiHermit,
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
Carson, your releasing into attachments IS releasing of attachments.
Hmmm... maybe??? For me, I would think that if an attachment is released, then the attachment would be gone. Doesn't seem to be the case (at least with the attachments I mentioned to Christi in my last reply to him) for me though. I can surrender to the fact that I have these particular attachments, but the attachments still exist. For example, I can relax around, and surrender to, the fact that I have an intense attachment to pleasurable sensory experiences, but that hasn't changed the fact that I still am totally attached to pleasureable sensations. There is less suffering over this attachment now, but it's still here.
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
Can you release into the ecstatic energy in the legs?
Funny how things work... not long after opening the topic here the difficulties with the orgasmic energy in the legs has disappeared. Funny how just voicing a problem can be enough to dissolve it. I've found that most of the "problems" I experience (most, not all) tend to be very short lived. This seems to have been one of them.
Love!
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 04:13:10 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
What I've come to realize is that no matter who or how often others tell me "this is what enlightenment is like" it doesn't make any difference. My experience is my experience, my path is my path. I cannot walk in another's footsteps and no one can walk my journey for me
It's funny. In India there is such a different mentality. People just find a spiritual teacher and surrender at their feet. They do everything the teacher tells them to do without question, and they become enlightened. It is such a beautiful and simple process to watch. In the West it is a bit different. Everybody wants everything to be validated for them at every stage in the process or they won't believe it. It is so tortuous by comparison. 
But luckily it doesn't matter too much. As long as you do the practices, meditate, cultivate silence and practice self-inquiry, everything will happen as it should. And you will get the validations when they come.
What we are talking about here, personal tendencies is a very deep subject in yoga. In Sanskrit there are two words for personal tendencies. The first is vasanas. These are surface tendencies, easy to let go of. The second are samskaras. These are deep rooted personal tendencies which are much more difficult to eradicate. Enlightenment is the process of eradicating all vasanas and samskaras. So it is a big deal and not something that happens overnight.
So if you are attached to the experience of ecstasy, that will continue until you see that the attachment is holding you back. Then it will be dropped. That does not mean you will never experience ecstasy again. The dissolving of samskaras is itself ecstatic. In fact through the letting go of the attachment to experiencing ecstasy there will be much more ecstasy, but in a purer and sweeter form. The ecstasy of love. But it may not come straight away, so you have to trust and have faith.
But this isn't something you have to do, or even can do. It is something that happens naturally as the process of awakening unfolds. As the body is purified, as the mind comes to silence every day, as the heart opens more and more, then there is an increased seeing that any form of attachment will ultimately lead to suffering, no matter how subtle or refined that attachment is. And it is dropped, naturally, when the time is right.
Christi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 07:03:16 AM
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Hi Kevin
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
You may not know it, but you are a very important person for me. Back a year and some ago when I first stumbled to AYP, I was a horses ass to you. I didn't mean to be, but I was overwhelmed by a number of things at the time.
Honestly, I don't remember what was said, so truly, it's all water under the bridge. I'm happy you are back here sharing with us and I'm enjoying reading your posts.
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
You, all that you are Carson, within the worlds of form, are a sensory
object. Carson just the way you are. You are a sensory object. Within
the silience which is within you, there is the silent witness and
there is Carson, who is a sensory object, and all other sensory
objects.
Yes. Everything that is "Carson" is a "sensory object."
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
please get over this 'not as advanced crap' you big doofus.
HA!
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Nearly everyone goes grasping afer God; or some set of beliefs which comforts them.
You USED to be that way, and now you are breaking free.
Yeah, there was some challenging "dark night of the soul" kind of stuff after having the ground ripped out from under me and having nowhere solid to stand, but I'm starting to relax into it now.
Lots of love to you man, glad you're back.
Love!
Carson
P.S> Sorry if the above seems disjointed but I've been writing this at work and it's taken me several hours because I keep getting interupted.  |
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 07:07:38 AM
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And I thought you just needed some magnesium supplements!
I haven't got much experience under my belt but as it stands now if I have any mental dialog... like I shouldn't be having/ enjoying this ecstasy because it is an attachment... I shouldn't like this because it is an attachment etc. I just inquire into it. Where is the I that keeps annoying me with this talk of enlightenment/attachments etc etc.
That thought will most definitely come back again so I just inquire into it again. It's like that whack a weasel game that I used to play and do miss (Oh dear, another attachment)!
Like Christi said: just keep practising and the rest will fall into place.
My major attachment at the moment is to be enlightened before I go completely bald because then I won't be bothered. "Who is the "I" that is turning into a bald eagle and sports a bad looking combover?" |
Edited by - woosa on Jul 17 2012 07:14:51 AM |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 12:44:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by woosa
And I thought you just needed some magnesium supplements!
I haven't got much experience under my belt but as it stands now if I have any mental dialog... like I shouldn't be having/ enjoying this ecstasy because it is an attachment... I shouldn't like this because it is an attachment etc. I just inquire into it. Where is the I that keeps annoying me with this talk of enlightenment/attachments etc etc.
That thought will most definitely come back again so I just inquire into it again. It's like that whack a weasel game that I used to play and do miss (Oh dear, another attachment)!
Like Christi said: just keep practising and the rest will fall into place.
My major attachment at the moment is to be enlightened before I go completely bald because then I won't be bothered. "Who is the "I" that is turning into a bald eagle and sports a bad looking combover?"
Woosa dude you are killing me.
Really.
LOL.
We are all a bunch of mutated chimps who will definitely die;
we have the universe waking up inside us, reminding us about
who we really are. Both at the same time!
(humans and chimps share 98.4% of their DNA. There are species
of birds who have more genetic variation in their own species!)
Now if that isn't quite SILLY; if that doesn't allow us to
laugh and be free I don't know what does!
Cheetah getting a big buzz and waking up. Now that's an image!
Oh and Woosa, to be serious for one moment; later yogas like
Kashmiri Saivism and of course Tantra get it right.
It's perfectly ok to enjoy... almost whatever..... there is NO
difference functionally with getting trapped by good sensations
as bad. Now we get trapped by bad sensations all the time and don't
feel guilty about that. Don't feel guilty about enjoying a good buzz!
When you enjoy it AND see the essence of it's form; mere fluff
floating on the waters of the world behind the veil; then you have
your cake and realize it's not a cake too! Woot! Zero calorie cake!
The more the silent witness wakes up; (yes, I know this sounds like heresy, but the silent witness has tunnel vision for a very long time); the more free one becomes. First the body becomes free,
then the mind follows. (at the first it is the conditioned mind/
ego which yearns, but this does open the door).
Kev |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 1:15:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Carson,
quote:
What I've come to realize is that no matter who or how often others tell me "this is what enlightenment is like" it doesn't make any difference. My experience is my experience, my path is my path. I cannot walk in another's footsteps and no one can walk my journey for me
It's funny. In India there is such a different mentality. People just find a spiritual teacher and surrender at their feet. They do everything the teacher tells them to do without question, and they become enlightened. It is such a beautiful and simple process to watch. In the West it is a bit different. Everybody wants everything to be validated for them at every stage in the process or they won't believe it. It is so tortuous by comparison.
But luckily it doesn't matter too much. As long as you do the practices, meditate, cultivate silence and practice self-inquiry, everything will happen as it should. And you will get the validations when they come.
What we are talking about here, personal tendencies is a very deep subject in yoga. In Sanskrit there are two words for personal tendencies. The first is vasanas. These are surface tendencies, easy to let go of. The second are samskaras. These are deep rooted personal tendencies which are much more difficult to eradicate. Enlightenment is the process of eradicating all vasanas and samskaras. So it is a big deal and not something that happens overnight.
So if you are attached to the experience of ecstasy, that will continue until you see that the attachment is holding you back. Then it will be dropped. That does not mean you will never experience ecstasy again. The dissolving of samskaras is itself ecstatic. In fact through the letting go of the attachment to experiencing ecstasy there will be much more ecstasy, but in a purer and sweeter form. The ecstasy of love. But it may not come straight away, so you have to trust and have faith.
But this isn't something you have to do, or even can do. It is something that happens naturally as the process of awakening unfolds. As the body is purified, as the mind comes to silence every day, as the heart opens more and more, then there is an increased seeing that any form of attachment will ultimately lead to suffering, no matter how subtle or refined that attachment is. And it is dropped, naturally, when the time is right.
Christi
Christi,
I really wish we could fine tune our terminology about 'enlightenment', just like we need to fine tune
our terminology about 'ecstasy'.
People (and I'm targetting nobody) throw around the word 'enlightenment' so much and it makes me nauseaous, as that word has NO functional semantic content. NONE.
Now this terminology makes sense to me for what it's worth;
Asleep
This is the state many apparent beings are in. It's not bad; it's
the way it is at the beginning of every great cycle of expression
or spanda in Sanskrit.
Fitfully Asleep
How people get this wrong is beyond me, but they tend to. The organic human 'awakening' is only a side effect. The target of evolution is not the human, but the 'passenger' within us; some might call this 'passenger' the 'soul'. That great temporary structure, which is mostly just some congestion in a 'nadi' streaming into and from matter. The 'soul' gets restless at a certain point and pauses in it's self-worship to start to see the 'world' around it. This is awakening.
Illuminated
When the 'lower' type of ecstatic conductivity is fully functional, then the 'soul' starts to glow brightly. This is the false light i've been discussing. I've watched various people going through this stage recently and it's wondrous and breathtaking. But this stage might last for millenia. The illuminated are often confused and go around starting religions and what not. 99% of all so-called spiritual masters are at this stage, and in fact this stage is the height of self-delusion.
Starting to Awaken
After the 'soul' gets tired of trying to be 'god' without God; it
reaches a dark night of total despair. It realizes that it cannot
become the splendid being it thinks it can by its own effort. It gets
very morose. When this happens, the 'silent witness' stops working.
I'd bet good money that various people are at this stage. This is a
terible but wonderful stage. It means that one is nearing freedom.
Starting to become Free
The 'soul' lays down it's life and recognizes the Self as the true
source of all radiance. The 'soul' functionally dies. Yes, dies.
It is the SOUL which is the HINDERANCE. It is the SOUL which is the
accumulation of gunk which keeps us prisoner.
Liberation
The 'soul' is no more; some bits of it reorganize into a new
structure, slowly over time. You see true spiritual teachers
construct a new 'vehicle for teaching and expression', to take
the place of the 'soul' if they remain in the world afer liberation
or if they come back into the great wheel of life even though they
do not need to do so. This stage is not hypothetical, it is real.
Enlightenment
This is the hypothetic stage where one is beyond all the 'kalpas'.
Where one is unchanging and so rooted in reality that flowers bloom
with each step or what not.
'Enlightenment' is an honorarium. Enlightenment is the single word the ego loves the most.
Please, lets use more specific language, which is not fodder for the ego. Isn't being FREE good enough? Isn't that what we yearn for? To be free of the cycles of birth and death, becuase there is no deluded soul to be caught up with soul games?
Now, so that we can keep this in the AYP folder where it badly needs
to stay, and not in 'alternaive systems', could someone expert in
AYP lingo convert or partially convert the terms and phases listed
above into AYP-speak?
Thank you friend,
Kevin
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 1:35:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Kevin
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
You may not know it, but you are a very important person for me. Back a year and some ago when I first stumbled to AYP, I was a horses ass to you. I didn't mean to be, but I was overwhelmed by a number of things at the time.
Honestly, I don't remember what was said, so truly, it's all water under the bridge. I'm happy you are back here sharing with us and I'm enjoying reading your posts.
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
You, all that you are Carson, within the worlds of form, are a sensory
object. Carson just the way you are. You are a sensory object. Within
the silience which is within you, there is the silent witness and
there is Carson, who is a sensory object, and all other sensory
objects.
Yes. Everything that is "Carson" is a "sensory object."
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
please get over this 'not as advanced crap' you big doofus.
HA!
quote:
Originally posted by kevincann
Nearly everyone goes grasping afer God; or some set of beliefs which comforts them.
You USED to be that way, and now you are breaking free.
Yeah, there was some challenging "dark night of the soul" kind of stuff after having the ground ripped out from under me and having nowhere solid to stand, but I'm starting to relax into it now.
Lots of love to you man, glad you're back.
Love!
Carson
P.S> Sorry if the above seems disjointed but I've been writing this at work and it's taken me several hours because I keep getting interupted.
Carson, I posted again in this thread, which sure has strayed far and wide hasn't it! LOL. Carson's leg energy causing all this activity! LOL.
I think you will find what I posted extremely edifying.
It's folks like you Carson, who I knew I loved, and felt a connection
with, but with whom I felt like I was being a horses ass a year ago,
which pushed me over the edge into something wonderful. Really, I owe
you and Etherfish and a few others everything.
I do really appreciate the warm welcome! While there is no hurting void within me any longer, I do enjoy kindness, love and friendship the same as anyone. It's all cake, but I'm a big fan of no-calorie cake!
Love,
Kev |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 2:32:51 PM
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Hi Kevin,
The term "enlightenment" is defined in AYP in the main lessons. It is here:
"The ultimate destination is enlightenment. What is enlightenment? A state of balanced union between our two natures: pure bliss consciousness, and our sensory involvement on this physical earth. That is the definition of yoga, and the destination of all religion." [Yogani]
That comes from lesson 35:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
So it is already pretty well defined. Yogani explains more about the process in that lesson. He also goes into more detail about enlightenment here:
http://www.aypsite.org/11.html
But enlightenment is not something that can be defined in human language because it is beyond language, and it cannot be understood by the mind because it is beyond the mind. This is why all definitions of enlightenment fall short of the mark. They can be pointers at best.
Christi |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 2:48:41 PM
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quote:
I'm nowhere near as advanced as you all are, but for me, at this point in my journey, the process of surrender is usually a releasing INTO attachments not a releasing OF attachments. There is a subtle difference for me here.
Hi Carson et al,
Interesting fiction but I personally wouldn’t buy into the above. We are all equals with an equal amount to learn from one another. Each person has a unique way of looking at the world and when we are open to that and hear it, a greater understanding of the whole can be the result. And this is true for any topic when people share their thoughts and experiences with each other. Life isn’t just about yoga, spirituality, and experience doesn’t end with some mythical end state of yoga, maybe yoga ends, but there is an unlimited universe out there for the body mind to explore, experience, find balance in and enjoy.
I personally wouldn’t get so caught up in analyzing the details, unless a person really enjoys analyzing it of course. The path is unique for each person and what is true for one is not necessarily for another. True this is a yoga forum, but yoga comes with its own baggage and limited viewpoints like any other world.
Each spiritual path is unique, personally I would toss any ideas of ecstasy and bliss out the window and bring my attention instead to what is needed for this body mind (if anything) here and now and that is it. When this body mind is satisfied, then we can look up and around and notice where and how we can help out or play in the world. And go back and forth as needed. Helping out is of course optional but it feels pretty good.
As for being attached to ecstasy, in my experience life will sort this attachment out like it does any other attachment, with a good healthy dose of pain/ discomfort for over-doing. I’ve only learned this lesson a few thousand times over.
First step realize the absolute, you are none of it including not an I, me or self. You can know this but if you turn around and say something like “yeah but I am in such and such a state and this is the way it is or should be…” then guess what, you are still attached just more subtly then before. Keep going and watch the limited view-points dissolve one by one. Second step? Flowing with the ever-moving ever-changing river of life. Easier said then done, since there are some white-water rapids along the way. We gain balance some would call mastery with this flowing in each unchartered area we experience. We can still fall in, but we get back on that raft more quickly each time.
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 3:41:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kevin,
The term "enlightenment" is defined in AYP in the main lessons. It is here:
"The ultimate destination is enlightenment. What is enlightenment? A state of balanced union between our two natures: pure bliss consciousness, and our sensory involvement on this physical earth. That is the definition of yoga, and the destination of all religion." [Yogani]
That comes from lesson 35:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
So it is already pretty well defined. Yogani explains more about the process in that lesson. He also goes into more detail about enlightenment here:
http://www.aypsite.org/11.html
But enlightenment is not something that can be defined in human language because it is beyond language, and it cannot be understood by the mind because it is beyond the mind. This is why all definitions of enlightenment fall short of the mark. They can be pointers at best.
Christi
What is of supreme value to some, is a stumbling block for others.
AYP is a finely-tuned system with specific goals built into it;
strangely enough even 'truth' can become a stumbling block;
I suppose that's why so much that is obvious, clear and mandatory
to know to avoid much trouble never sees print. 'Truth' can be more
trouble than lack of knowledge, and it is in fact the 'silent witness'
that one must learn from, not any external source.
It is my own karma that pushes me into action, as the world as a whole
has no more than 100 good years left in it, before much trouble comes
our way; the long term survival of the human race is somewhat dubious.
It is my personal wish that we all get off our collective 'enlightened asses'
and stop fiddling while Rome is burning. But that is my karma.
And of course before we have something to give to others, we must
first let the Self give us the gift of Ourself. Then we may
profitably act.
Some people might think that i'm a rabble-rouser, that I may not be
as strong an AYP supporter as some. But this is not true. I see a
potential in AYP that I don't see in any other exoteric group.
I'm hoping that AYP spreads like a weed across the Earth. As people
start to awaken en-masse, there needs to a support structure of
spiritual warriors to assist.
Oh; on the word karma; when one is blind and can't see the wind,
the wind pushes one where they do not wish to go. But when one
sees the wind, then this willingly accepted pushing is no longer
called 'karma'. It is called Love. Consciously perceived and accepted
karma is Divine Love in action. Of course one eventually sees
that the wind is not the wind; but no matter what you call it, it still blows :-)
When no difference is seen between your brothers and sisters 'karma'
and your own, then you have in fact become free from 'karma'. If you
live a billion billion lives, or never again, it is all the same;
there is no escaping Life.
Thank you for sharing those links.
Kev |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 4:03:12 PM
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Kevin, Thankfully not a sage of the nether regions!
Carson,
quote:
I would think that if an attachment is released, then the attachment would be gone.
- Which explains why you are feeling unclear.
Others here have already mentioned it, but our experience doesn't always behave the way our thoughts would prefer. We can however, choose whether to follow the experience, or the thought.
There are a some other things to consider:
One useful rule of thumb: if an attachment fails to go after being seen, then it may well be part of your being, and therefore may never go.
Then again, attachments are often linked to many different parts of our being, and releasing (into) an attachment may only release one of its many links. Over time through continued release, the rest will go. Some links go deep, and some are subtle. This is the essence of the Advaitin approach.
We are complex beings, with complex attachments that are less black and white, than rainbow like, which I suspect, is why Buddha promoted approaching life along a middle way.
Namaste |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 5:00:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
Kevin, Thankfully not a sage of the nether regions!
Carson,
quote:
I would think that if an attachment is released, then the attachment would be gone.
- Which explains why you are feeling unclear.
Others here have already mentioned it, but our experience doesn't always behave the way our thoughts would prefer. We can however, choose whether to follow the experience, or the thought.
There are a some other things to consider:
One useful rule of thumb: if an attachment fails to go after being seen, then it may well be part of your being, and therefore may never go.
Then again, attachments are often linked to many different parts of our being, and releasing (into) an attachment may only release one of its many links. Over time through continued release, the rest will go. Some links go deep, and some are subtle. This is the essence of the Advaitin approach.
We are complex beings, with complex attachments that are less black and white, than rainbow like, which I suspect, is why Buddha promoted approaching life along a middle way.
Namaste
Well said.
The seeds of prior actions, either our own or others which have infected us often run deep.
"Karma" is not actually personal. Yes, there are fragments we grab from the flow and bolt into 'ourselves'; but a great deal of conditioning comes from society and like the thirsty sponges we are
it soaks into us, whether we knowingly participate or not.
For example, a major church was still saying that african-americans and indians don't have souls, so they can't go to heaven as late as the early 1900's.
That sort of thinking is a stain upon all who lived at that time,
and that stain remains to this day. It has never been 'processed'.
Humans are just conduits. There truly is no such thing as 'personal'. It's our identifying with 'personal' which causes our suffering.
You are funny too, oh hermit not of the netherbits.
Kev |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 9:14:28 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It's funny. In India there is such a different mentality. People just find a spiritual teacher and surrender at their feet. They do everything the teacher tells them to do without question, and they become enlightened.
I knew there was a reason I wasn't born in India!!! Hahaha.
Seriously though, I moved out of my parents house at 14years old (and never looked back) simply because I have always had serious issues with surrendering to authority of any kind. I couldn't deal with having someone tell me what time I had to come home by let alone deal with someone telling me exactly how to live my life in order to become enlightened. This is part of the reason why AYP appealed so much to me... a "self directed" approach to spiritual unfoldment is exactly what I've always needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It is so tortuous by comparison.
I'm always had a tendency towards masochism.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
But luckily it doesn't matter too much. As long as you do the practices, meditate, cultivate silence and practice self-inquiry, everything will happen as it should. And you will get the validations when they come.
Well, the practices continue here to the extent that my physical/mental body can handle, but I'm of the bent that everything will happen as it should regardless of any conditions.
With regards to seeking validation this is what I was talking about earlier when mentioning that I have to walk my own path. I'm not allowed to validate "where I am" or "how I am travelling" based on others' experiences anymore. This is what I was meaning when I said to Kevin that "the ground was ripped out from under me." At a certain point something shifted and I was no longer "allowed" to use the 'signposts' of others paths as markers for my own. It is a solitary path here and trying to align it with anothers' only feels like it leads me away from Truth not towards it. No more validation allowed and I'm learning to let go of the feelings of needing it as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
What we are talking about here, personal tendencies is a very deep subject in yoga. In Sanskrit there are two words for personal tendencies. The first is vasanas. These are surface tendencies, easy to let go of. The second are samskaras. These are deep rooted personal tendencies which are much more difficult to eradicate. Enlightenment is the process of eradicating all vasanas and samskaras. So it is a big deal and not something that happens overnight.
Thank you for this explanation, this makes a lot of sense and has been corroborated by my own experience. Many of the "vasanas" that were here when I came to AYP are now gone, but many of the samskaras are still here. They are now known to be what they are (not 'me' but merely tendencies this body/mind has aquired over the years/lifetimes) but they have not (all) been let go of (yet). Luckily, this path has (slowly) started to increase the amount of patience I have and I'm (mostly) okay with allowing things to take the time they take.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
So if you are attached to the experience of ecstasy, that will continue until you see that the attachment is holding you back. Then it will be dropped.
I would add the word "eventually" in that last sentence somewhere, but other than that I can agree with you here.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
But this isn't something you have to do, or even can do. It is something that happens naturally as the process of awakening unfolds. As the body is purified, as the mind comes to silence every day, as the heart opens more and more, then there is an increased seeing that any form of attachment will ultimately lead to suffering, no matter how subtle or refined that attachment is. And it is dropped, naturally, when the time is right.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience with me Christi.
Love,
Carson |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 10:17:15 PM
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Hi Woosa,
quote:
Originally posted by woosa
I haven't got much experience under my belt but as it stands now if I have any mental dialog... like I shouldn't be having/ enjoying this ecstasy because it is an attachment... I shouldn't like this because it is an attachment etc. I just inquire into it. Where is the I that keeps annoying me with this talk of enlightenment/attachments etc etc.
Well, luckily I don't care much about what "should" be. The reason this whole topic was started wasn't because I felt I "shouldn't be attached to the ecstasy" but because the ecstasy was so strong that it was pulling me into the astral realms while at work which is an environment where I really need to be present or else people can literally die. Luckily whatever was causing the overwhelming ecstatic surges has moved on, as have I (and this thread too for that matter!! ) and I haven't been having this challenge over the past week or so.
quote:
Originally posted by woosa
My major attachment at the moment is to be enlightened before I go completely bald because then I won't be bothered.
Good thing that isn't MY goal or I'd have already lost!! (I'm already bald. )
quote:
"Who is the "I" that is turning into a bald eagle and sports a bad looking combover?"
Don't you know!?!?!? You can't get enlightened when you sport a combover!! A combover is like the #1 obstacle to enlightenment!!
Love!
Carson |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 10:43:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Don't you know!!! You can't get enlightened when you sport a combover!! A combover is like the #1 obstacle to enlightenment!!
LOL!
Without a sense of humor, my brains would have been blown out long ago. But thankfully, I can gladly report that my brains are fairly intact, and the notion of blowing them out is not appeasing at all. In fact, I received a head massage today, and my brain was spitting out very nice thoughts as the hands were stimulating the neural nodes.
This is completely irrelevant to the initial leg complaint of Carson, but that is precisely why I am posting it. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 11:56:47 PM
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Hi Anthem,
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Each spiritual path is unique, personally I would toss any ideas of ecstasy and bliss out the window and bring my attention instead to what is needed for this body mind (if anything) here and now and that is it.
I think the only real "idea" I have regarding the ecstasy/bliss at this point is that it needs to be in balance with the rest of the system. And that's not really an "idea" that's more like a necessity with the current circumstances for me. But, then again, I'm always finding all sorts of uninvestigated ideas so there could still be lots of them with regards to ecstasy/bliss that need to be dropped, I just haven't seen them yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
As for being attached to ecstasy, in my experience life will sort this attachment out like it does any other attachment, with a good healthy dose of pain/ discomfort for over-doing. I’ve only learned this lesson a few thousand times over.
I've been inquiring into this "attachment to ecstasy" thing over the past couple of days and I don't think that I'm attached to "ecstasy"... I think I am attached to *anything* that causes pleasant sensory stimulation.... and when one thing isn't available to stimulate pleasant sensory experiences I tend to go looking for something else that will. I tend towards the "need-to-have-constant-sensory-stimulation" bent it seems. But as you say, this will likely drop all on it's own when the time is right.
Thanks Anthem.
Love!
Carson |
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woosa
United Kingdom
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 11:03:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Don't you know!?!?!? You can't get enlightened when you sport a combover!! A combover is like the #1 obstacle to enlightenment!!
Awesome! (I'm getting the clippers out) |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 04:52:32 AM
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Hi BuddhiHermit
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
One useful rule of thumb: if an attachment fails to go after being seen, then it may well be part of your being, and therefore may never go.
I've let the above sentence settle in over the past day or so, and, I want you to elaborate.
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
We are complex beings, with complex attachments that are less black and white, than rainbow like, which I suspect, is why Buddha promoted approaching life along a middle way.
Ahhh.... the middle way. The all too elusive tightrope that consistently evades the "pleasure junky."
Love!
Carson |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 12:40:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi BuddhiHermit
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
One useful rule of thumb: if an attachment fails to go after being seen, then it may well be part of your being, and therefore may never go.
I've let the above sentence settle in over the past day or so, and, I want you to elaborate.
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit
We are complex beings, with complex attachments that are less black and white, than rainbow like, which I suspect, is why Buddha promoted approaching life along a middle way.
Ahhh.... the middle way. The all too elusive tightrope that consistently evades the "pleasure junky."
Love!
Carson
Our buddy buddha of the nowhere near the netherregions has a good
perception on this.
Eventually your identification with 'not-carson' will fade so
much, that you might as well be looking at a stranger through
a telescope.
So it won't matter what 'carson' is or is not.
You see, sometimes attributes of our shadow ('us') are part
of a larger framework, and they are not intended to be 'changed'
or just don't need to be 'changed'.
After all, it is the body which drops off as a dead carcass
eventually; it is the soul which drops off as a dead carcass
eventually. Even the final hurdle, the so-called atmic sheath
drops off as a dead carcass eventually; however when that happens
you can't live as a human anymore, so most free beings will hang
onto that for a very long time, so they can be part of the outpouring
of love.
One last tip for you brother of my heart; the concept of "wu wei"
really applies here. When you fight something, you feed it energy.
That's what you are doing.
You might do this practice for things that hinder you; it's not
sexy yoga, but it's powerful;
Look at the annoying thing in your life; whether 'inside' of you
or 'in the world' (no difference, but need to make it clear).
Stop the world (the flow of useless babbling thoughts which are
the conscious rational mind).
Out of this stillness address the 'issue' like this:
I love you. I accept you. I accept you forever.
I love you and hug you and name you George.
Stay around all you want.
You can do this with simple words. You can do this as Samyama.
Whatever you like.
It won't be long before the 'issue' goes away for lack of anyone
fretting about it; or it won't entirely go away, but you'll
perceive that you are not 'that'. You are not even Carson.
What do you care if some stranger, some strange body which is
not you is addicted to chocolates formed into the image of
my little pony?
I'm being verbose here. I'm not being 'spiritual' here.
I just wanted to present this like 2 dudes drinking beers
on the pier.
Does this help?
Kev |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2012 : 05:34:47 AM
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The attachment that stays after it has been seen, may have been mistaken for an attachment. Often, we cannot clearly see all the connections that our being makes.
An enjoyment of energy, ecstasy, or both may have another function too.
As Kevin has noted, there are deeper kinds of connection than just attachment, and many will become irrelevant in their own way and time.
As to the middle way, Buddha exhorted his disciples to personally verify everything - Thats also the middle.
Namaste |
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apollo2012
Greece
3 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2012 : 4:25:08 PM
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Depending on the exact type of energy that it really is it can be very critical that you know excactly which signs are good and which signs are bad. Some energies can be good and bad. One could say that it is a danger to go to work when you undrgo a Kundalini awakening meaning you need to taketime with yourself to find out what you're doing really. However everything you read here from me is general information and might not be suitable for your situtation. Reply iff you need anything. Bye.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Namaste Friends,
I'm wondering if any of you out there have any advice for me. I have been experiencing lots of ecstatic energy in my legs lately but many days I have little to no opportunity for traditional grounding techniques. Here's my situation....
The amount of ecstatic energy that is felt in my legs lately has been steadily increasing over the last month or so. But the nature of my job is such that when I am at work I have to sit at a desk for a 12 hour period with a maximum of a 5 minute break (to go to the bathroom or heat up my lunch etc) once or twice a shift. When the ecstasy is strong in the legs I find my body wanting to stretch and walk and move (and the ecstasy can become overwhelming if I don't do so) but logistically this in not realistic for me (while at work). I am wondering if any of you have any suggestions for alternate grounding techniques that could be used while sitting for long stretches at a time.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Love!
Carson
P.S> I have been trying to visualize (when I have a spare moment) the energy flowing from my legs down into the earth but I have found this to be not very effective when I am in my office which is 4 floors above ground level.
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Ecstatic energy in the legs
