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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 4:48:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Yes, I do trust that life will show me what to do/not to do if I stop engaging in practices. What I don't trust is my ability to listen to Life's subtle cues if I am not engaged in practices. This tends to be corroborated with my previous experience.
Brilliant. That rings a giant gong in my heart-mind. Penetrating insight, Carson!  |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2012 : 5:53:19 PM
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Hi Katrine,
Thanks for your response. Very clarifying, and much of what you say resonates with me.
Not to get lost in semantics, but I just want to make a distiction that is helpful for me: that is...the difference between A) surrender to Life and B) surrender to Divine Flow/Stillness/Will. To me, surrender to Life kind of connotates a surrender to "circumstances". To be more precise, Life is primarily a personal, human endeavor based on an environment where we have options to choose our destiny, mixed with pre-set conditions. Divine Will calls us to evolve within the background of Life, allowing it to be our stage to enact the comedic drama of spiritual evolution. Life is the stage, but Divine Will is what needs to be surrendered to.
Surrendering to Life, for most people, equates to the following: watching TV, trying to make some money, taking a nice vacation, and having babies so that they can grow up to do slight variations of the same. Now, if you surrender to the Divine Will, you'll probably be doing those things as well, but you'll also be doing extra things too (cultivating stillness and being radiant on subtle, vibrational levels, as well as being CREATIVE in terms of art, beauty, innovation, social and individual PROGRESS--which will CHANGE the consciousness of Life, and thereby improve the pre-set conditions for the next generation  ).
There's lots of people that are surrendering to Life "as it is", and the profit-making, power-hungry moguls on Earth are more than happy to help you surrender to their stream of consumerist living.
So, it may just be a linguistic thing, but surrendering to Life does not nearly make the grade, for me. Surrending to the Divine Will, on the other hand, allows me to live a Life that is not bound or constricted by present-day circumstances only. Just consider Martin Luther King, Jr. or Gandhi--they didn't surrender to Life "as it is." They surrendered to the Divine Will to make a change for the benefit of all humanity. Because, here is the truth: Life is what we make it.
"The times they are a-changin'." |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jul 10 2012 5:56:27 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 07:15:42 AM
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Dear Bodhi Tree
Yes that is the problems with words isn't it - they mean different things to different people :)
But even though our definitions of what life is and is not may differ greatly, it is still a valid point that we have to live according to what is true to ourselves. But we usually do not do this.....we skip that part.....and go with more exciting stuff. That is not a surrender, that is simply having it our own way. The habitual thing we do most of in society is that we do not surrender to our circumstances. We escape them as best we can. We usually want something other than what we have. And that is ok too. Because we are indeed evolving. Our deepest drive is to evolve. And sooner or later the consequences of that kind of living will be brought home to us (usually in painful ways).
Only each one of us can know what is true for ourselves. Simply because divinity and humanity is not split. We all have the same divine nature, but our human nature differ, so everyone is unique. Life gives us the chance to experience. And the wisdom extracted from experience makes it easier to point out things to ourselves and others (simply because of a more expanded view - more life available for looking), and if what is seen and heard rings true to us, then that means that we already know it. So by bringing it forward it becomes easier to hear clearly and to trust acting on it. Live truthfully. Only what we already know will resonate in our hearts.
This resonance and this knowing is the meeting point of our humanity and our divinity. This is where it is felt and known that divine will and life is not two. This is where everything becomes whole. But it makes no sense as a mental exercise. Words do not do it. Luckily it works weather we put words on it or not. Often we have to experience the same thing again and again in order to extract the wisdom from it. We repeat and repeat...not because we have not heard the message....but because we do not trust it. We do not understand the importance of it.
Luckily we don't have to be enlightened to be honest. It is in our human nature as well as the divine - the pull towards truth. So even through we are not Gandhi - we do have the choice to surrender to inner truth in small ways. Every day. It starts here and matures from here.
Inner honesty is very challenging....the most challenging we can engage in. Precisely because it often goes against social rules and conditioning...inside and outside. And we judge so harsly - in here and out there. But if we live according to authenticity (what is true for each one), the consequences of this is that we learn what is what. Here. On this earth. In this life. And as our perception changes when more and more is made conscious and our actions become more beneficial for all....so does our definitions behind the words.
All the best Bodhi Tree.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 2:25:15 PM
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| Excellent. Thank you, Katrine. I can honestly feel the wisdom of your words. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 3:16:10 PM
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That means you already know this |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2012 : 7:58:34 PM
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Hi Carson,
the aerobic part is timewise a little bit critical for me aswell at the moment but the intention to maybe add it for at least once a week has already been sent into nothing ^^
So the comments relating to the good effects for health, aswell as stability and smoothness of "higher-gear"-functioning have their cause in the muscle toning program done every second day. I added two moves for the back muscles at the end, which take another 3 mins, so all in all it is about 15 minutes. But this is the first work-out so to say that I see possible to do for the rest of the life. I'm very thankful to Yogani for this great composition. The "downside" could be the overall increased need for food + the ever growing muscles so far. I'm sure they will stabilize somewhere along. It is interesting to observe the body getting in nice shape while at the same time thinking about yoganis body which may really look like this:
http://vipdictionary.com/img/schatz...l-719874.jpg
Everything from the grossest to the finest at ferrari level but without the noise =P |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2012 : 01:37:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Namaste Friends,
I'm wondering if any of you out there have any advice for me. I have been experiencing lots of ecstatic energy in my legs lately but many days I have little to no opportunity for traditional grounding techniques. Here's my situation....
The amount of ecstatic energy that is felt in my legs lately has been steadily increasing over the last month or so. But the nature of my job is such that when I am at work I have to sit at a desk for a 12 hour period with a maximum of a 5 minute break (to go to the bathroom or heat up my lunch etc) once or twice a shift. When the ecstasy is strong in the legs I find my body wanting to stretch and walk and move (and the ecstasy can become overwhelming if I don't do so) but logistically this in not realistic for me (while at work). I am wondering if any of you have any suggestions for alternate grounding techniques that could be used while sitting for long stretches at a time.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Love!
Carson 
P.S> I have been trying to visualize (when I have a spare moment) the energy flowing from my legs down into the earth but I have found this to be not very effective when I am in my office which is 4 floors above ground level.
You may be doing an inadvertent Mula Bandha procedure, due to the
affected muscles being cramped with all that sitting.
If the ecstatic energy is localized more in the left foot than the right, that is generally an indication that Kundalini will be making an appearance within 30 days.
I suggest you be be careful to relax the affected muscles in that region, and if your workplace environment allows, I'd just stand up next to your desk like you are going to do jumping jacks, but don't jump. Just slowly flex the muscles of one leg, wait a few seconds and flex the muscles of the other leg, while doing some gentle, appropriate breathing. This will also help unlock the common stress held in the stomach area, which is a factor in nearly any and all energy-based discomfort.
Hope this helps.
Kev |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2012 : 09:56:57 AM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Balance - which is always the crucial point .... is a "spreading out" of the energy. It is then quiet. Not ecstatic.
Are you saying here that when you are in balance that you no longer feel ecstatic surges/ energy? This has been my experience, more silence more general contentment with balance, ecstatic hardly noticeable.
Hi Carson,
Its an interesting dilema, to meditate the amount you are doing and experience more equanimity in daily life and have energy surges being uncomfortably high. Or, reduce or stop meditation and risk the "decent" into the sharpness of the emotions and thoughts that can create so called strife and unwanted conduct towards others that you would like to avoid.
I would always be in favor of meditating and simply reducing practices until the time when the meditation is no longer an aid in avoiding those scenarios you spoke of in your earlier post or until the point that you can no longer meditate. This was what I did, without really having a plan, it just happened this way. I did this for a long time, until it was no longer possible to use meditation for balance and equanimity.
What I noticed was that once meditation practice was no longer a viable option, (and still isn't 15 months after stopping) is that all those root thoughts/ beliefs which initiated the same type of conflict in my life that you describe in yours, were right there waiting for me to address soon after stopping. The difference was that there was a pervasive foundation of inner silence and a healthy skeptical mind from all the daily practice to handle the emotional intensity and thoughts that would initiate those types of situations.
In my opinion, life doesn't allow us to just meditate our problems away, though it can feel like that and go like that for a long time. The body/ mind does change and gets strengthened with all the daily practice. Once the mind is in a better position of balance and there is a good emotional stability, at some point the hidden beliefs will come to the surface to be seen in some degree or another. Good news though is that life is gentle with us and only shows us in doses we can handle.
I put it out there because I remember feeling quite stuck between a rock and a hard place as I adjusted to the new dynamic of no longer being able to rely on meditation to increase balance.
Lot's of love to you both!
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2012 : 1:03:14 PM
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Dear Anthem
quote:
Are you saying here that when you are in balance that you no longer feel ecstatic surges/ energy? This has been my experience, more silence more general contentment with balance, ecstatic hardly noticeable.
Yes and no.
The energy is usually felt here as a constant (no up or down...just always ON) if I am inactive. But the habit of floating with it....to enjoy it for myself as a blissful ecstacy.....is not there anymore. If it gets very tempting (it is seldom now) I simply breathe deeply ....knowing that the only thing I can do to help with the balance is having a clear intention of not melting in it. It is here I am needed. Not in there.
It works.
When I am active (whatever the action) - it is a full engagement. The energy then goes into the action (no matter what it is), and there is nothing left of it to be noticed "outside the action". Does that make sense to you?
The witnessing is also not separate from the action.....there is no "distance" between the seeing and the action. The clear presence and the witnessing is not focused on at all, I never think about things like that anymore - and yet it is like that when asked to describe it.
The great about this for me is that it is impossible not to notice "falling off the edge of truth". In other words, I am always "told" if I stray. In the tiniest ways...it is seen as it happens, and not ignored. If anything needs to be done about it, it is done as soon as it is possible. It is so great for me because the habit of being a "policeman" about myself has dissolved. I do not stand guard against myself, and neither is there imprisonment afterwards. So I can naturally be a human being and trust that it is enough.
There can of course be fear (like in the boat the other day when I almost hit the harbor wall because the motor was new to me... ) but it is ok. Breathe. Pain (physical or emotional) and it is ok. Breathe. The fear and the pain is felt fully - it can therefor hurt like hell, but it is not avoided. And of course it passes. Most of the time the biological system is operating in peace.
I also discovered that the panic I used to feel on stage during a concert was simply a decision to not be here. Because I was invested in the outcome. Just like I created the absorbtion in the energy....or my idea of celestial/heavenly as somehting "beyond", I also created the panic. Both are escapes because it is such a challenge to be here "uncushioned", totally naked. Knowing our total vulnerability, fragility as well as that which cannot be destroyed. It is both. Not one or the other.
There is peace. No inner conflict. That is the contentment for me. It is also a deep gratefulness that I am allowed to see. And there is no feeling left of not being in the right place or time.
So good to see you Anthem
Much love to you and your family.
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2012 : 5:04:13 PM
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Hi Carson,
My apologies for the delay, and for giving away the jewels.
My experience echos Katrine's, albeit from another approach.
I noticed your preference for enjoying the energy once it's raised, both for the pleasure, and the centredness it provides you.
The dilemma I have seen arising from energy stimulation practices, is that awareness and wisdom follow as shadows, but disappear quickly when the stimulation ceases. This is not a problem for a full-time Yogi, as he can just keep up his practices until the energy is sufficiently strong to initiate a self-sustaining transformation.
If life has decreed that you should serve in a more mundane way (with a conventional job) then I can see two clear options.
1. Continue with energy practices, but ask your inner being/Bhakti self to transmute the energy into awareness, focus, presence.
You could use AYP samyama, however, Intention without sufficient clarity can create unexpected consequences.
As a result, I usually enter into a respectful dialogue with my Silence and ask nicely if it could help me out in a way that satisfies both the worldly needs, and the inner needs. I am always required to contribute my own effort, and these days, it is usually quite gracious, although not always.
2. You could acknowledge life's call in another way, and commence concentration practices to strengthen awareness, focus, and presence directly. Energy will follow as a shadow, and although you would not need to engage in any specific energy work, if you chose to do so, after a while, the increased clarity would provide sufficient balance regardless of how much AYP Yoga you wanted to do.
I suspect your own desire to find yourself in a self-sustaining place of clarity and balance, especially with those around you, is most probably the driving force behind your present challenge.
Namaste |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 4:12:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Katrine,
quote:
Balance - which is always the crucial point .... is a "spreading out" of the energy. It is then quiet. Not ecstatic.
On the point of 'ecstatic energy'.
A lot of people become addicted to the feelings of 'ecstatic energy' in the body. The ego locks onto these feelings as "proof that one is becoming enlightened" or what not.
After a certain point of practice, 'ecstatic energy' is constantly, quietly flowing, in an appropriate balance.
But if the ego craves this feeling of energy flow, it learns the trick of "trilling" the nervous system, to give an energy rush.
By repeatedly doing this, various subtle essences in the body are exhausted, and the person becomes an out-of-balance wreck.
In truth, those periodic feelings of extra 'ecstatic energy' are due to the continuing evolution of the nervous system, under the direction of the 'silent witness'. So when they happen - great. When they don't happen - great.
It's like a muscle. A properly toned muscle does not announce it's presence. But when the muscle is called upon to perform a more strenuous function, you feel that muscles presence.
It is the same with ecstatic energy.
Another case when you feel increased energy is when the silent witness is actively communicating (wordlessly) with an aspect of being, and it crosses a certain threshold and your personality becomes aware of it; you also feel a form of 'ecstatic energy'.
Now there is this misperception that to be some 'great yogic being', that you should be awash in sparkling energy 24x7, even when sleeping.
The truth is that all this ecstatic energy is just scenery; Unconditioned Awareness doesn't need any of this stuff.
I hope this response was of value to someone.
Kev |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 5:19:41 PM
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Hi all,
Yogani discusses the important part that ecstasy plays in the overall process of enlightenment here:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
Without ecstasy there can be no ecstatic bliss, and no divine love as divine love is the product of the merging of ecstasy and bliss. Ecstasy is the end-game in yoga. This is discussed in a number of different lessons including this one:
http://www.aypsite.org/127.html
"In yoga it is not possible to avoid dealing with sexual energy indefinitely, because sooner or later the nervous system becomes activated by the rise of kundalini, and inner ecstasy explodes inside. There is nothing more sensual than that. All of the advanced yoga practices are designed to promote ecstasy's natural rise in the nervous system. Even meditation is ultimately for that, coming from deep inner silence to union in ecstatic bliss everywhere in the body and beyond. That is why we call advancedyogapractices, "easy lessons for ecstatic living." [Yogani]" |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 7:09:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi all,
Yogani discusses the important part that ecstasy plays in the overall process of enlightenment here:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
Without ecstasy there can be no ecstatic bliss, and no divine love as divine love is the product of the merging of ecstasy and bliss. Ecstasy is the end-game in yoga. This is discussed in a number of different lessons including this one:
http://www.aypsite.org/127.html
"In yoga it is not possible to avoid dealing with sexual energy indefinitely, because sooner or later the nervous system becomes activated by the rise of kundalini, and inner ecstasy explodes inside. There is nothing more sensual than that. All of the advanced yoga practices are designed to promote ecstasy's natural rise in the nervous system. Even meditation is ultimately for that, coming from deep inner silence to union in ecstatic bliss everywhere in the body and beyond. That is why we call advancedyogapractices, "easy lessons for ecstatic living." [Yogani]"
Christi brings up a very good point.
There is a huge difference between the ecstasy of the body and
the Self becoming as one, and the transient energy surges
which are scenery.
Thanks,
Kev |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 03:26:34 AM
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Hi all,
We could be suffering from a lack of words here. Yogani once said that one day there will be 20 words for bliss, just as the Inuit have 20 words for snow. I suspect that one day we will also have 20 words for ecstasy!
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 05:46:54 AM
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Dear Christi
quote:
Without ecstasy there can be no ecstatic bliss, and no divine love as divine love is the product of the merging of ecstasy and bliss.
quote:
Ecstasy is the end-game in yoga
I can only speak from my limited experience. But it is nevertheless my experience that ecstatic bliss still is an experience of the senses. Albeit a very refined one....and with very expanded senses. And so in my experience it is still possible to "land" here.
It seems to me that defining divine love can never be separate from the one who defines it. It usually speaks about the speakers experience. In my eyes everything is an expression of divine love. And yet I cannot say one thing about divine love that would not be more of me than it itself. Simply because my understanding is limited.
But I do know one thing: I am here to express my utmost potential at any moment. And when I do, I am peaceful and there is clear seeing. Enough seeing to be able to move on when life does it. Then, more importantly, : I am available for life. It is already living us, but whenever I stop having things my own way and continue to listen to that small voice inside (the inner guru) - then I experience that the essence of life is about a deeper and deeper seeing. This seeing is far from sterile, but it is also not ecstatic. It is simply clear and still. And very potent. Like a catalyst.
Awakening of energy comes with the territory of Being. And so it is definitely a fact that an energetic fire changes (opens) the nervous system over time. But the speed and intensity of this fire varies greatly with every human being, and that needs to be remembered when speaking of it as an absolute. Otherwise we will continue to hanker after what we do not experience, may not even need to experience, in order to be where we actually are. Or we will land in states where it is not constructive to land.
In my experience, this clarity does not rest in - or on - ecstatic bliss, the strength of it comes from being totally collected. When the look is not invested in sustaining any sensual feeling, no matter how refined it is, no matter how loving, no matter how sublime it is felt to be, then all the power goes into the look and it becomes extremely concentrated - like a lazer. This is what the message of the looking is confirming to me again and again - that when I am receiving - but not resting on - whatever can be felt (however subtle it is, however sublime it is) - then all is available for the looking itself. The love does not need my help. It functions very well without me looking at it. It is everything else that may need a helping hand. And that includes my own habitual patterns. It also confirms that I cannot listen to the fear of living. Truly living is for me to not avoid anything that life brings before me. Not to my preferences, but to what is actually needed. To engage deeply in every thing. Uncushioned if I can bear it. So that it can be known from the inside out. For years I engaged in my preferences more often than not. It may not be like that now, but there is still much more wisdom to be extracted within me. And I must be true to the dynamic of that. This is how my heart belongs to that which is unfathomable. This is what feels true to me when it comes to honoring this deep mystery that life is.
To fully understand something is a very challenging endeavour, because it cannot be forced to fit any spiritual system. It is simply listening to life and hope that there is enough courage to obey what is heard. Innerly and outwardly letting go of all the "good stuff". Every system speaks of the good stuff as an end result. But in my experience it is possible to go astray in the good as well as the so called bad. It all depends on where we are - what our potential is at all times. That means that a birch must be a birch. Not a pine. It also means that both the birch and the pine are equal in their divinity. They are both needed. I have lots more to experience and understand and so I must keep moving.
So for me - balance is quiet. This is where I can hear. In letting go of the ecstatic bliss as a place to be for myself something else is being shown to me. To see clearly is much more constructive for what I am here to do. It has made it very clear to me that I used the ecstatic bliss to be in my own version of what was truly needed for everyone else. That version was not however built on my experience alone. It was built on what I had heard and what I wanted to believe. The attachment to the bliss was a habit of mine. It was very hard to break.
Clarity and calm is very useful. Because it results in truly helpful actions. And nobody focuses on the bringer of the message. It is naturally brought in such a way that what people recognize and remember are themselves, not whatever it is that is pointing. It does not have to be named in any way. It functions naturally. With no bravado. And to me that means that peeling potatoes, driving a car, being a politician, etc is as much an expression of divine love as healing a sick or writing a beautiful poem or making pieces of art or giving inspiring talks about awakening. Of course it also means that being in ecstatic bliss is exactly right for someone else. But it is not for me now. And I cannot speak...as a generalism...... from a perspective that is not mine, it is as simple as that.
I also find that most people have difficulty defining the difference between ecstacy and ecstatic bliss. I know I did. It takes years for most before the ecstacy refines to the degree that it is truly known as ecstatic bliss. So it is good to speak these things out loud from any perspective. It can only enhance our general understanding when it is openly discussed, looked at understood from all angles.
Much love to you Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 09:14:25 AM
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Hi Katrine,
Thank you for your sharing.
quote:
I can only speak from my limited experience. But it is nevertheless my experience that ecstatic bliss still is an experience of the senses. Albeit a very refined one....and with very expanded senses. And so in my experience it is still possible to "land" here.
When you let go of yourself, fully, into the mystery, all that remains is ecstatic bliss, divine love and unity. Then there is no more "you" in the process. There is no more "one person's perspective" or "another's perspective". All of that becomes irrelevant when you surrender fully. It is seen to be just another aspect of the contracted sense of self. Put simply, divine love is what is when you are not. It isn't possible to be attached to because it is the fruit of non-attachment, of letting go and of surrender. It is not a sensory experience, it is what you are when you let go of sensory experience. It is the culmination of the whole process of the movement beyond "my, me, mine, and I".
quote:
I have lots more to experience and understand and so I must keep moving.
Divine love is what is when you see that you have nothing more to experience, and nothing more to understand. Nothing at all. That whole process of seeking experience and of seeking understanding is what keeps us contracted, and keeps us from experiencing ecstasy in every moment. And it is what keeps us from experiencing love in every moment.
It doesn't matter how quiet you are, when that process is continuing, the process of seeking experience and understanding, the process of "keeping moving", all of that creates a contraction. What happens when we stop moving, and are still? In that stillness, ecstasy comes up like a fountain. Boundaries melt around us like snow in the spring and love is everywhere. It doesn't need to be expressed in any way, it simply is. It is still and moving at the same time. Empty and full at the same time. We don't need to do anything to make it come, other than to get out of the way.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 11:14:32 AM
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Dear Christi.
We can all speak from our level of understanding. God knows I have done enough of speaking from where I am supposed to be according to a standard.
I have no problems with your understanding, what you experience is very valid for you. But I have to act and speak from where I am. That is the whole point. It is here that the lamp is lit, not over there somewhere. So far all is well with that here.
quote:
When you let go of yourself, fully, into the mystery, all that remains is ecstatic bliss, divine love and unity. Then there is no more "you" in the process. There is no more "one person's perspective" or "another's perspective". All of that becomes irrelevant when you surrender fully.
I can only repeat that this is not my experience. On the contrary - another's perspective becomes very relevant. More so than ever. It is taken into consideration when interacting with that being.
In my experience unity - or wholeness which is a much better word for me to use - can be deeply experienced without bathing in ecstatic bliss.
quote:
Put simply, divine love is what is when you are not. It isn't possible to be attached to because it is the fruit of non-attachment, of letting go and of surrender.
It is my experience that it is possible to be attached to ecstatic bliss. It has been very helpful for me to find this out.
For me, to surrender fully, means to surrender to what - through direct experience - is known to be true inside myself. It is unquestionable. There is no doubt in this for me. Only the consequences that follows when acting on it or not. It is not helpful to be too concerned about "the disappearance of the you". That too is a wanting. When that wanting overshadows what is actually here to see and act on, then there is no balance. What I am concerned about therefore, is living truthfully (according to the heart). Being truthful to what I actually know. To not ignore this. Because it is from here everything else matures. This certainty is unshakeable and it is definitely a type of understanding. Not as in knowing how to define divine love, but as in surrendering to the heart where its silent voice is heard. That is also a message of love and brings its own fruit. It also takes care of the falling away of the you.
I cannot define divine love with any words I know. Not ecstatic bliss, not anything. What can I say about it that it itself is not already saying in so many different ways? Nothing.
I must take into consideration that life wants me here for reasons I do not know. It may involve not losing a you. I may not want to hear that, but surrender is surrender to what life wants at any moment. For me right now that involves not falling into ecstatic bliss. It does not mean less unity. On the contrary. It is very quiet when I do what I must instead of what I may want at any time.
quote:
Divine love is what is when you see that you have nothing more to experience, and nothing more to understand.
I cannot define divine love. I can only honor it to the best of my ability, It is what I do with my limited understanding that counts for me. As long as life wants me to operate through this body on this earth there will be experience. And hopefully the essence of wisdom extracted from that experience will benefit more than myself. To be of use no matter whom I am with is deeply meaningful. It is also peaceful.
quote:
What happens when we stop moving, and are still? In that stillness, ecstasy comes up like a fountain. Boundaries melt around us like snow in the spring and love is everywhere.
Yes. And that fountain is not for me to have anymore. That is all. I do not constantly need to taste ecstatic bliss in order to listen. Boundaries are dissolving faster here the way it is now. Again - this is my experience. Yours may me different. I respect that.
Much love Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 11:52:45 AM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Yes. And that fountain is not for me to have anymore. That is all. I do not constantly need to taste ecstatic bliss in order to listen.
You cannot know what is to come around the next corner. Also you cannot know what it is that life has planned for you (if anything). As surrender deepens, things change. Things that we once thought were unquestionable, we may start to question.
As we practice, and silence and stillness are developed, the idea of a separate self falls away, spontaneously. This is the idea of a "you" that life has plans for in some way. This falling away is not a desire, but simply a result of seeing through the whole process of identification.
This is the surrender that I am talking about. Not a desire, but a falling away of desires. I am not saying that it is not possible to become attached to ecstasy, it is possible to become attached to anything. But when there is surrender, even that attachment is released. The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
What I am saying is that the experience of true surrender is divine love and is ecstatic bliss. They are one and the same. If it is not your experience yet, then it may well be one day. But you should not rule it out as a possibility in the meantime, either for yourself or for anyone else. It has been the experience of tens of thousands of yogis over several thousand years.
As always, the Sufis can describe it better than me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0b8luvuLy8
Much love to you too. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 12:11:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
Dear Christi
[quote]Without ecstasy there can be no ecstatic bliss, and no divine love as divine love is the product of the merging of ecstasy and bliss.
Dear Katrine,
My gratitude is boundless for the words you wrote. How magnificent. How pristine. How full of true understanding. Your being is quiet, powerful and delicately beautiful to the sight.
You understand full well that the unfolding of the divine requires little death after little death; not just in big flashy experiences, but in each moment throughout the day.
True ecstasy has nothing to do with a feeling. True discernment has nothing to do with thinking. True service has nothing to do with planning.
What nearly every human who has ever lived might call 'ecstatic conductivity' or 'Kundalini' is a mere throw-away tool of the Divine. The nervous system is realigned so that the Self may know itself in time and space. It is indeed the golden shackle of all golden shackles, that might trap the beautiful essence of the Self for endless ages.
It is the job of the Mother to offer up the Divine Child to the Father, so that there may be nonstop communion that does not depend upon the senses, or 'energies' or anything from the gross material world.
This; the wordless communion without limit or measure; THIS is the end result of Yoga; the place beyond all striving; the clear and endless sea which drives the froth of the lower world known as matter and time.
And yet Katrine, you and I and everyone, we are such frail creatures in this world and require endless grace. We are nothing by ourselves. We only have significance and relevance as part of the whole community, both the visible and the not so visible.
Thank you Sister.
Kev
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 12:12:25 PM
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Dear Christi
quote:
The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
This is how I see it too. But in order to release something there must be a willingness to see it. To be faced with it. What remains hidden will not be released in my experience.
quote:
As surrender deepens, things change. Things that we once thought were unquestionable, we may start to question.
Yes.
But the dynamic of this we do not have to question.
Much love Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 4:06:32 PM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
quote:
The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
This is how I see it too. But in order to release something there must be a willingness to see it. To be faced with it. What remains hidden will not be released in my experience.
Yes, first there has to be the willingness to see it. That is one important thing. Then there has to be the willingness to surrender, that is the second important thing.
quote:
To be of use no matter whom I am with is deeply meaningful. It is also peaceful.
Part of the process of surrender is realizing that you will never be of use to anyone, ever again. This too has to be seen, at let go of. As long as you are "of use to someone", there is a separation created between you and the other. This separation is the creation of duality and there is a barrier to love.
This process of letting go of all identification, of "falling into the mystery" continues until nothing remains other than the mystery itself. The mystery itself is overflowing with joy and is the essence of love. |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 4:46:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Katrine,
quote:
quote:
The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
This is how I see it too. But in order to release something there must be a willingness to see it. To be faced with it. What remains hidden will not be released in my experience.
Yes, first there has to be the willingness to see it. That is one important thing. Then there has to be the willingness to surrender, that is the second important thing.
quote:
To be of use no matter whom I am with is deeply meaningful. It is also peaceful.
Part of the process of surrender is realizing that you will never be of use to anyone, ever again. This too has to be seen, at let go of. As long as you are "of use to someone", there is a separation created between you and the other. This separation is the creation of duality and there is a barrier to love.
This process of letting go of all identification, of "falling into the mystery" continues until nothing remains other than the mystery itself. The mystery itself is overflowing with joy and is the essence of love.
The Sages wrestled with this too. If there is no duality, then why must loving people act as if there is duality?
If one turns everything into a formless mush with the mind, one loses their way. If one turns everything into a vast dualistic map, one loses their way.
The way of spirit is like quantum mechanics; many things both are and are not simultaneously. The spirit cannot be pinned down and converted into 'mush' or 'not mush'.
If we say "oh that person is part of the One"; it is a mistake to use discernment. I'll just let them starve and lay dying in the street because they too are God, we lose our way.
Yes, anything of form is scenery. Temporary. Not to be confused with
the undifferentiated. But it is the very stuff of life, to willingly
be a representative of the formless in the worlds of form.
In that role, one must let themselves be covered with 'poop'; one must allow themselves to enter into conversations that might never bear fruit, for years or hundreds of years.
I do not despise form nor using discernment; form is the paintbrush
upon the canvas of the divine; without both the paintbrush and the canvas (the formless) there would be no visible outpouring of love.
Hiding in formlessness is in fact the avoidance of 1/2 of ones true Self.
All this said, you are perfectly correct about giving up on the idea
of ever helping anyone, ever again. This is a very deep truth you
have latched onto. One that kicked my ass for a long time.
The ego has no power to help anyone in a lasting way.
Only the 'mysterious', to use your word, has the power to act
as a conduit of grace.
Thank you for sharing your path and your love with us.
Kev
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 5:10:34 PM
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Hi Christi, Katrine, Kevin and all,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The process of surrender is the releasing of attachments.
I'm nowhere near as advanced as you all are, but for me, at this point in my journey, the process of surrender is usually a releasing INTO attachments not a releasing OF attachments. There is a subtle difference for me here.
For me, surrender often is not a letting go of attachments, at least not at this time. For me, surrender is letting go of trying to change anything, including the stuff I'm attached to. For me, this is I interpret the "seeing" I believe Katrine is talking about. I can't seem to surrender to anything. All I can do is become aware of what is actually happening, then whatever happens is what happens. If there is a releasing of attachments then that is what happens, but that, for me, is rare. Usually there is just a seeing of the attachment and the surrender is just a letting go of trying to change that which is seen. Whenever I try to change anything there is only more struggle and tension. When I see, and accept what I see without judgement or trying to change it, that to me is surrender... even without the dropping of anything. Stuff will either drop or it won't... really has nothing to do with "me." All I can really hope for is to see what is actually here and surrender to that (with no expectation of releasing or changing anything).
Not sure if I've been able to properly explain the subtle difference I see between releasing of attachments and releasing into attachments, but there it is... my best attempt.
Love!
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 5:59:54 PM
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Hi Carson,
Yes, I can follow what you are saying. That surrendering attachments is one thing and seeing that we have attachments but surrendering to the fact of that is another thing but both are forms of surrender.
quote:
Whenever I try to change anything there is only more struggle and tension.
Yes, simply using the mind to try and impose a change on the mind just creates a battle. That is why Katrine and I are talking about "seeing" and "surrendering". When something is clearly seen, then it is dropped. It is like something is burning your hand, and you look down and see you are holding a burning stick. So you drop it. There is no battle or struggle, just the dropping of the stick.
That is easy to do with a burning stick, because you can look at it, but most of our troubles are not so obvious, because they are rooted in the mind. So we need silence and stillness to see them clearly, and detachment. In silence and stillness they show up pretty clearly because the troubles caused by identification with the mind-stuff are almost always noisy and moving.
So the process of surrender is the process of the cultivation of silence, and then, from within silence, self-inquiry. We need to ask: "what is this?", "what am I doing with it?" and "does it burn?". Every process of identification with the body or the content of the mind, at some point, burns. Then the same thing happens just like seeing the burning stick in your hand, you drop it.
The more things that are dropped, the more space there is for other things such as joy, euphoria, laughter, peace and love. These things are the natural state of the human condition and naturally bubble up when the tight grip of identification is gradually released. They don't have to be created using effort. They are always there like the sky behind the clouds. It is a process which takes time, but there is a point where one can see how simple and beautiful the process is, and it becomes much easier from there on in.
In Sanskrit there is a word "satchidananda" which means "existence consciousness bliss". It refers to the state of one who is free from all attachment. All that remains is consciousness, existence (literally: that which is), and bliss.
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 6:32:47 PM
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Katrine, Kevincann,
_/\_
Being of use, is not the same as being of use to anyone. It is rather, expressing in this moment; creativity; and flow.
The One supports the One.
Carson, your releasing into attachments IS releasing of attachments.
Can you release into the ecstatic energy in the legs?
Namaste |
Edited by - BuddhiHermit on Jul 16 2012 7:17:08 PM |
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Ecstatic energy in the legs
