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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
 Posted - May 18 2012 : 5:40:15 PM
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Considering many equate the realization of Oneness to Union with God, Buddhahood, Christhood, and so on, well where do miracles fall in all this.
Not asking because of seeking, or grasping. Just wondering because as teachers, both Christ and Buddha, as well as quite a few mystic saints, backed up their teachings with miraculous acts which swayed even sme of the most arduous of skeptics.
So it goes today. Plenty of teachers, but can any produce these miracles?
Your take? |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 10:55:25 PM
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Hi beetsmyth,
Not sure what you mean by miracles....everything in this world looks like a miracle to me.
Buddha and Christ did not need to perform miracles to be examples of unconditional love.
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 12:06:58 AM
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Yes, that life and everything is a miracle is experienced here too. But that is only at a certain level.
I mean healing cancer instantly in someone, or blindness, or bi-location, or mastery over weather, over death, over the laws and limits in man.
Sure Love for all is there, but what about powers and miracles.
We have all these teachers out there, and i dont hear or see any stories of miracles or powers which were all common place in the past. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 12:12:51 AM
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Namaste beet 
quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
Plenty of teachers, but can any produce these miracles?
What would it mean to you if such teachers could produce what you'd consider miracles?
To me, "miracle" means something that is possible in reality, but the mind believes is impossible. So whose mind is choosing to limit reality?
If David Blaine or Chriss Angel said they were the next Buddha/Christ, would you believe them? Where is the line between a miracle and a trick?
No answers here, only questions.
Much Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 01:43:08 AM
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I think it's a perfectly valid question. 
I recently was googleing about healing 'miracles'. I LOVE reading and hearing about these things. There is no reason to not want to inquire about miracles. Ir's part of what we are and will become. |
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beetsmyth
USA
104 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 12:27:29 PM
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quote:
What would it mean to you if such teachers could produce what you'd consider miracles?
That is just a confirmation that the teacher is not only legit, but has demonstrated a level of mastery that is not a commonality in this world.
I personally believe that anything is possible, yet when trying to bi-locate, or heal, or demonstrate such mastery, it is not manifesting. Seeing somebody else do such things just shows they are legit to a certain degree.
Blaine and chris angel are performers. They do not teach people how to reach the absolute, or be saved, or overcoming self.
As all of us here have studied/read various accounts of spiritual masters, we find that miracles/powers were a byproduct of their attainments/practices and it was proof to those around them that they were for real.
Today, we dont find that. Take for instance Tolle, or anyone of the prominent advaita teachers around as examples. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2012 : 5:28:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
That is just a confirmation that the teacher is not only legit, but has demonstrated a level of mastery that is not a commonality in this world.
I personally believe that anything is possible, yet when trying to bi-locate, or heal, or demonstrate such mastery, it is not manifesting. Seeing somebody else do such things just shows they are legit to a certain degree.
Blaine and chris angel are performers. They do not teach people how to reach the absolute, or be saved, or overcoming self.
As all of us here have studied/read various accounts of spiritual masters, we find that miracles/powers were a byproduct of their attainments/practices and it was proof to those around them that they were for real.
Today, we dont find that. Take for instance Tolle, or anyone of the prominent advaita teachers around as examples.
There are few reasons why it is hard to find a master who can demonstrate miracles. The first and the foremost is several masters in the present era claim to have attained perfection/enlightenment to just make money from public or to be in fame, but in reality they have never reached that level of perfection. Even very famous masters may fall in this category. Second, a number of real masters who have attained a significant amount of perfection/enlightenment often stay in isolation or away from societies to have their practices proceed uninterrupted and/or eliminate the mental modifications associated with dwelling in society. Third several scriptures forbid the public demonstration of siddhis. Scriptures advice that the accomplished yogis who live in society should behave no different from common man. Until they reach enlightenment demonstrating yogic powers (siddhis) leads to decrease in the accumulated power and hence delay in their attainment of enlightenment. For this reason several perfected gurus openly say that they can’t demonstrate any miracles. Forth the probability of an enlightened master born enlightened or a person born normal (as layman) and attaining enlightenment within one lifetime is extremely rare event. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2012 : 8:42:28 PM
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Hey Beetsmyth,
I think it's a good question: did some spiritual teachers in the past actually perform things like healings and such, and if so, why not now?
In my opinion, showup makes a good point above (second point), wherein the most enlightened teachers currently among us dwell in simplicity far from others. These teachers may indeed become extremely enlightened, but their influence on the world is not great.
I think there is another point to consider as well. What if we just don't have that type of teacher among us?
I must say that I feel that these types of miracles are definitely possible when one is set on fire, so to speak, by the spirit. Besides union, you feel like an roaring icey flame of eternal love and bahkti... I believe that if one was able to maintain this state in the presence of others that these types of miracles could indeed be performed, assuming it is god's will to do so, as in this state one would never consider their egoic desires. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2012 : 10:30:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
Considering many equate the realization of Oneness to Union with God, Buddhahood, Christhood, and so on, well where do miracles fall in all this.
Not asking because of seeking, or grasping. Just wondering because as teachers, both Christ and Buddha, as well as quite a few mystic saints, backed up their teachings with miraculous acts which swayed even sme of the most arduous of skeptics.
So it goes today. Plenty of teachers, but can any produce these miracles?
Your take?
Ah!! There are many healers. They don't proclaim openly. 
One thing I can tell you. Doing Miracles or healing people is a easy task |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 14 2012 11:21:17 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 02:56:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
Third several scriptures forbid the public demonstration of siddhis. Scriptures advice that the accomplished yogis who live in society should behave no different from common man. Until they reach enlightenment demonstrating yogic powers (siddhis) leads to decrease in the accumulated power and hence delay in their attainment of enlightenment. For this reason several perfected gurus openly say that they can’t demonstrate any miracles.
I totally agree with this and would like to add that it's not only because it's written in the scriptures. It's most often a self-regulating system. When the really deep siddhis come you are mostly not there to demonstrate it. "You" are gone, and stillness in action just doesn't brag about it's performances. Being with a master a bit closer for a longer period of time, on a retreat for example, has shown me miracles of unspeakable measures.
However, siddhis may come without enlightenment as well. My journey has been filled with miracles of all sorts, such that you mention and plenty of others to the degree I've lost interest in them. It is just a part of everyday life now. I know a few persons who without problems can heal cancer or other diseases, without having reached any 24/7 shift of awareness. I have had boyfriends who just play around in "Matrix", changing the codes (playing with/being able to affect weather, people, animals, temperature etc etc) without effort, and I've learned some from them. You can take a one-week course and learn how to do minor stuff like that and then practice. However, it's just a play with energies. Doesn't lead you anywhere, but perhaps to a greater spiritual ego. 
In my experience, the only thing that means something is staying Home, being true to Truth and loving the Love, no matter what that looks like.
Adyashanti, commenting on The Secret (being able to manifest what you want with thought/intention) once said that the only time he uses that ability is when he quickly wants a parking place. It's much more interesting to find the place where you go from "I can have what I want" to "I can want what I have". Relax and enjoy the show!  |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 08:18:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
quote:
Originally posted by showup
Third several scriptures forbid the public demonstration of siddhis. Scriptures advice that the accomplished yogis who live in society should behave no different from common man. Until they reach enlightenment demonstrating yogic powers (siddhis) leads to decrease in the accumulated power and hence delay in their attainment of enlightenment. For this reason several perfected gurus openly say that they can’t demonstrate any miracles.
I totally agree with this and would like to add that it's not only because it's written in the scriptures. It's most often a self-regulating system. When the really deep siddhis come you are mostly not there to demonstrate it. "You" are gone, and stillness in action just doesn't brag about it's performances. Being with a master a bit closer for a longer period of time, on a retreat for example, has shown me miracles of unspeakable measures.
However, siddhis may come without enlightenment as well. My journey has been filled with miracles of all sorts, such that you mention and plenty of others to the degree I've lost interest in them. It is just a part of everyday life now. I know a few persons who without problems can heal cancer or other diseases, without having reached any 24/7 shift of awareness. I have had boyfriends who just play around in "Matrix", changing the codes (playing with/being able to affect weather, people, animals, temperature etc etc) without effort, and I've learned some from them. You can take a one-week course and learn how to do minor stuff like that and then practice. However, it's just a play with energies. Doesn't lead you anywhere, but perhaps to a greater spiritual ego.
In my experience, the only thing that means something is staying Home, being true to Truth and loving the Love, no matter what that looks like.
Adyashanti, commenting on The Secret (being able to manifest what you want with thought/intention) once said that the only time he uses that ability is when he quickly wants a parking place. It's much more interesting to find the place where you go from "I can have what I want" to "I can want what I have". Relax and enjoy the show!
Wow emc, i am a bit shocked by your post. People that cure cancer "no problem" and such? Changing the weather "like it's nothing"? The secret?
You can write me in as a skeptic :P |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 10:31:46 AM
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tonightsthenight. Good! I wouldn't believe a thing of it myself if I hadn't had direct experience!
Have you read "An autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda? It was a relief for me to read that book, since I found many similar experiences in that book that I have had. My journey has been a bit wild. Those who have followed me during the years here in forum have gotten some reports on a few things now and then...
I don't know if Sweden is spectacular, but here you can join in on courses and learn this manipulating energy stuff quite easily and cheap. When I worked as a teacher I taught some basics on how to create "energyballs" (one of the simplest chi gong practices) with my "normal" students. They were quite surprised at first and then it also became normalized, not dramatic at all. Check out youtube. Many examples of how people play with Chi.
The trick is actually taught in "The hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy": you can fly! You just have to fall and miss to hit the ground! Kidding. To manifest, you have to be so sure that it's gonna happen, that you have the feeling that it in fact already is the case, and then drop any investment in it. Then it happens - if the universe thinks it's a good idea. Good luck! 
PS: It also helps a lot to know you ARE what you are trying to manipulate, so it is in fact YOU changing 'yourself'. You ARE consciousness AS matter. You ARE the weather. |
Edited by - emc on Jul 15 2012 11:21:06 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 11:17:32 AM
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There is more than one reason most teachers don't "back up" their teaching with miracles. One is that the ability to produce miracles doesn't mean what you are teaching is true! The bible says false prophets will do miracles.
Another reason is that most miracles can't be produced just for show, because the purpose of them is to teach or help you. So with the teaching or helping removed, they usually won't manifest.
Another reason is that when you connect to your inner guru you will see miracles happen in your personal life all the time. But they are for you only, and will happen where others don't see them, or can't tell it was for you.
I can't speak for others, but for me, what God tells me isn't meant to be told to others. I have found this because when I have tried to tell others information I have received, I have later found it was not what was best for them; only me. I prefer it that way because I don't like people following me and putting me on a pedestal. The information that IS good for others relates to helping them find enlightenment, like on this website.
Also not being able to produce miracles on demand prevents me from getting a big ego. Who knows, maybe i am not producing anything; my inner guru might be putting me in the right place where the miracle would be happening without me. But that's irrelevant to me as long as I am in the best place I can be. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 12:23:36 PM
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@beetsmyth
have you visited realized masters in person? If not you should not blame the lack of reports as most miracles are not written down or filmed whle they happen ;)
To backup emc, what she said applied here too fully. Stuff like moving psi-wheels without touching them, knowing what someone else thinkgs etc. can be trained. I had success within one week 12 + hours a day with these 7 years ago. Later tried some reiki stuff and healing minor aches of any kind was no problem at all as well. After oen year I lost interest in all of this, latest by reading the book emc has mentioned. You can find a video on youtube where a man plays with chi. He even explains his method, which is the inner fire meditation while vase breathing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1RGVaBQYc
But as said, after having read from Yogananda, the whole thing made ching and over the years I've met some masters who flooded me with inner and outer miracles of which the inner ones were the real helpful ones. To name a few still living which in my experience are genuine and if you are honest and do your part anything can happen with and for you:
Maitreya Ishwara (over youtube and in person), Madhukar (over youtube and in person), Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath (over youtube and in person), a sufi man and a sufi woman you can't reach publicly (both in person), Nithyananda (over youtube), Papaji (over youtube).
You'd say, "some have left their body" and "what, over youtube?", but in my experience these guys know no space, nor time, nor any limitations of their action via any kind of message-system. Everyone of them did transmit several times sat-chit-ananda to this body-mind here with 1. their own unique flavour and 2. with an intensity no own practice ever did. This for me was and is the greatest miracle. The more I practiced, the more the grace or the miracles with these masters happened beyond the "normal scope" of practice-effects.
When it comes to outer observed miracles, some of my familiy members were and are students of different sufi masters. My uncle and her wife were witness of one of them visiting a girlfriend of ours while she was at the hospital with a broken arm. The docs told her it will take several weeks to align the bones gain. This man and the two (uncle and aunt) went visiting her, the man touched her arm and she felt a strong electric current. They had a normal conversation and the next day the doc reported that her bones had aligned perfectly. Later my uncle asked him how he did it and his answer was: god told me to touch her arm, he has done it.
Another sufi master leading a mosque while having a conversation among students and visitors (half of my family was there) once stood up and went to the back part of that mosque. After 10 minutes he came back from that corner having a lot of snow all over his body. It was in the mids of summer. Later my uncle asked him why he was covered with snow and he replied that he had work to do in another country near the himalaya.
These were just two more visible examples of uncounted ones just to tell you, these people still live. If you continue practicing a lot of miracles will start happening through you aswell. It is not about proving all this, as most leaders of most countries are already aware. It is about you, about your wellbeing and those around you. The transmission of inner healing, of love and joy is the true miracle and the only valuable one in my experience. And genuine masters are never stingy in giving away of their inner beauty to sincere and open people.
In the end all miracles are to inspire you to start taking the journey inwards to the one behind all miracles ;) |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 2:09:30 PM
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Hey emc, holy, ether...
I'm not referring to being a skeptic of stuff like moving energy or daily miracles in one's own life.
And I'm not saying that I don't believe it's possible. On the contrary, I said before that it's likely that it's just not happening now... and I could, of course, be wrong about that!
On the other hand, I get big warning signs when I read stuff like, "as most leaders of most countries are already aware", "he had work to do in another country near the himalaya", as well as "The Secret".
I've had some really interesting things happen to me, and I believe that Big miracles are possible. But dudes in Mosques leaving for 10 minutes to get transported to the Himalaya and coming back covered in snow? No, I don't believe that. A worldwide conspiracy by "leaders in most countries" to hide such from the world populace? No, I don't believe that. The Secret? I definitely don't believe that :P
But this is an interesting discussion and it's really fun to find out more about people on AYP! I hope that my skepticism about these things doesn't come off as offensive in the least bit. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 2:15:43 PM
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Ether,
I've also found that the inner connection and continuous miracles that we may experience is for us only. It cannot be shared, and if sharing is attempted the whole event/feeling would be ruined. |
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Jose
Spain
40 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 03:29:27 AM
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Hi All,
Yes, I agree with you Tonightsthenight. This is a very interesting topic but I don't think these kinds of 'miracles' are that easy to find/see/experience. Lots of people claim to have the power to heal, to read the future, to talk to the spirits, ET's, etc and most of them are scams. I also believe these things are possible, but they are not that common.
J.
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Edited by - Jose on Jul 16 2012 6:24:03 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 07:23:44 AM
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Why do you need miracles ?
Show me and I will happily follow. But you would only hear the birds song you would not see the bird.
All the proof you need is found inside. Stop searching externally, there you will find only illusion. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 08:42:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jose
Hi All,
Yes, I agree with you Tonightsthenight. This is a very interesting topic but I don't think these kinds of 'miracles' are that easy find/see/experience. Lots of people claim to have the power to heal, to read the future, to talk to the spirits, ET's, etc and most of them are scams. I also believe these things are possible, but they are not that common.
J.
That's because those powers aren't given to people to impress others, or to boost their ego. Someone who is well acquainted with those powers will usually keep it to themselves, because this is when the powers work the best. The best healers for example, won't advertise or try to get rich. They just heal, and avoid the public eye. |
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KechariConfusion
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 2:39:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
Considering many equate the realization of Oneness to Union with God, Buddhahood, Christhood, and so on, well where do miracles fall in all this.
Not asking because of seeking, or grasping. Just wondering because as teachers, both Christ and Buddha, as well as quite a few mystic saints, backed up their teachings with miraculous acts which swayed even sme of the most arduous of skeptics.
So it goes today. Plenty of teachers, but can any produce these miracles?
Your take?
There is a Columbia professor that essentially says the New Testament is 99.9% fictitious.
There may have been a guy named Jesus, but he was just a regular human apocalyptic preacher. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 10:45:53 PM
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Ha ha! Was there any mention of the wisdom in Jesus' teachings, or maybe he doesn't think they are wise?
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Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 18 2012 9:12:55 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 03:00:18 AM
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christian religion puts 100% faith in Jesus and the Bible.
None Christians put 0.1 % in the Bible and tag Jesus as a teacher.
It really doen't really matter what is thought, the effect of knowing or reading ate not possible to quantify. Take it for what is, enjoy it for what it is, worship it and it's ideals if that works for you, or throw it in the garbage. It's a guide that's all. Not everyone reads guide books in the same way, but all have an impact anyway.
It's the same as "I am that" it's part of your own personal world. It's there for a reason just like everything else. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 3:59:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Ha ha! Was there any mention of the wisdom in Jesus' teachings, or maybe he doesn't think they are wise?
Consider the source; Columbia is known for as communist as you can get, and communism has always tried to snuff religions as they interfere with their "classless" utopia where everyone is equal (except the ruling class).
That's a bold statement Ether. |
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KechariConfusion
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 5:52:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Ha ha! Was there any mention of the wisdom in Jesus' teachings, or maybe he doesn't think they are wise?
Consider the source; Columbia is known for as communist as you can get, and communism has always tried to snuff religions as they interfere with their "classless" utopia where everyone is equal (except the ruling class).
Regardless of your opinion of Columbia, academic arguments can be examined on their own merits. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2012 : 8:56:05 PM
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I decided to delete the part about Columbia University. I had just recently googled stuff about that, but it's too controversial.
There are lots of good, logical reasons to tear down religious teachers and other people's beliefs. What is not generally understood is that good teachings come from imperfect teachers and good lessons are often imperfectly passed on, but people still learn because we each have a sense for what we need and what is good.
So although what the professor says could be 100% true, it doesn't help teach people the good lessons that Jesus is believed to have taught, it just attempts to burst someone's balloon, which doesn't do anyone good.
All religions could probably be found full of flaws, and yet they have helped many people.
It would be more helpful to tear down the negative beliefs of religions, instead of the positive. It's pretty hard to find negative in Jesus' teachings, regardless of who he was. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 18 2012 9:15:52 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2012 : 03:09:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KechariConfusion
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Ha ha! Was there any mention of the wisdom in Jesus' teachings, or maybe he doesn't think they are wise?
Consider the source; Columbia is known for as communist as you can get, and communism has always tried to snuff religions as they interfere with their "classless" utopia where everyone is equal (except the ruling class).
Regardless of your opinion of Columbia, academic arguments can be examined on their own merits.
You can have academic arguments about everything, it's fun to do, but it's simply play. You don't recognise it as play, because your ego has grown and hidden it from you. Try and split play from reality.
This is why many like to consider that we are dreaming, we are not actually dreaming, it's more like we are in a strong hypnotic trance and someone has told us that an Onion is an important piece of historical work that should be discussed. We are unable to truly see that the Onion is just an Onion and that it is just the mind that is turning the Onion into this fantastic historical document.
Try to see that the Bible as an Onion, it's just as important as an Onion has importance, but you cannot really grasp why an Onion is in your world either, but it must have a reason and be as important as the most influential book you have ever read.
This is the story told of the rope and the snake. They are not literal ropes and snakes, just as it isn't literally Bible and Onion. It might be useful to think of books as the building blocks of a doorway. They might be the entire doorway or they might just be a tiny but significant part. A guide that will one day allow you to dispel the illusion that has fallen around you. |
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where are miracles in all this?
