|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
 Posted - May 17 2012 : 09:02:45 AM
|
Would anyone like to take a shot at how many hours it takes to 'crack-through' whatever IT is in meditation we need to bust through? Rough guess would be nice. Auto of a Yogi said 3hr's a day but he never said for how long!
Thanks... And once again guess's welcome.
Bless all
L |
|
|
mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 12:06:52 PM
|
Hi L,
I don't think anyone can honestly make a valid answer to that question.
From personal experience and knowledge (I have personal experience of the first 2 or 3 stages, kind of flickering between all three of them, more and more finding myself in stage 2 or 3, almost never in stage one) there are like three or four key stages along the enlightenment path:
-"Unenlightened" Note the inverted commas, I say Unenlightened with a hint of irony, because there isn't really such thing. This is when at the core of the human experience (which is thoughts, feelings, sense perceptions, sensations) there is the belief and the experience "I am a human being, experiencing internal thoughts and feelings, and an external world". (and all the delusion that come with this core belief and experience).
-Initial awakening (Rise of the Witness). This is when the core belief/experience "I am a human being, experiencing internal thoughts and feelings, and an external world" begins to dissolve. One increasingly experiences oneself as the calm, clear awareness in which all the aforementioned perceptible objects (thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, including space and time) arise. There is then a subtle changing in experience, as whatever one is experiencing, be it pleasant or unpleasant, one experiences oneself as completely free from it.
-Total dis-identification. When one reaches the point of permanently abiding experience of oneself as the awareness in which all perceptible objects arise, the core belief/experience "I am a human being, experiencing internal thoughts and feelings, and an external world" being totally dissolved.
-Collapse into Non-duality. This is when the witness collapses, and there's no longer the perception of oneself as a subject (awareness) in which objects (thoughts, sensations, sense perceptions, feelings) arise, this subject/object division totally dissolves, there is no longer an "experiencer" having an "experience", only experiencing. You are that experiencing. Then there is that outpouring of divine love as described by Yogani, as all is yourself. Rather tricky to put this in language, but in some senses, it's useful to use the subject/object divisions going forward in language for practical purposes.
The conceptual understanding of all this makes it rather dry, the mental body can never do it justice, but on the level of felt-perception it's obviously a deeply rich, joyous experience of total freedom.
What we need to "crack-through" is the blocks and delusions that keep the experience your true Self is having in stage one, and gradually move it along into stage four.
There is no fixed time that it takes to reach levels 3 and 4 of experience, since time is imaginary and occurs within the awareness which you already are. But to understand this conceptually probably won't be of much use to you: we're not here to intellectualize about the truth, we're here to experience it.
So some practical instructions:
-Get straight about time and try to find out who you are. Is the awareness which is aware of the visual image of a young child looking in the mirror any different to the awareness which is aware of the visual image of an old person or adult looking into the mirror? Maybe you can remember a time you looked into the mirror as a child, now do it as an adult. There may be a different visual image, different thoughts, feelings, etcetera, but is the awareness which is aware of these perceptible objects any different?
You are that awareness, and you are not subject to time, old age, or death.
You are that awareness, you are not the visual image in the mirror, nor are you any thoughts, feelings or beliefs about who you are. You are that which is aware of any thoughts, feelings and beliefs about what you are.
-Continue with AYP!! Anyone, like yourself, who is here, trying to wake up, is doing the most admirable thing anyone can possibly do. AYP doesn't require three hours a day, it requires much less time. AYP will greatly help to deepen and increase the richness of your experience of Stage 2, and hopefully carry you all the way along to stages three and four. I think AYP is one of the most powerful systems for speeding up the path to enlightenment.
-Take a direct path to enlightenment, as well as a gradual one. Maybe watch this video on Inescapable Seeing by Bentinho: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1KpyQc5kvM Know that you are the already-awake awareness in which all your spiritual seeking and daily experience occurs. As a daily spiritual practice, continually notice how everything that occurs, occurs within awareness. Notice that anything you perceive, whether it's a thought, feeling, sense perception (sound, sight, taste etc) occurs within awareness. Gently direct your attention to that awareness. This is tricky and paradoxical, because awareness is not a perceptible object, and all your efforts to direct your attention towards it will simply occur within awareness, but you will never perceive the awareness itself, because you are that awareness seeking to perceive itself. So don't try hard or make an effort, this is just an ever-so gentle noticing, and a directing of attention away from the perceptible object, and towards the awareness which is aware of the perceptible object. Don't try hard, don't make an effort, the video from Bentinho is really the perfect description of this technique. It's happening already, and is inescapable, and once you start to notice that, it's very liberating.
-Find out all your beliefs about your experience and who is experiencing it. And just look at them. Become aware of them. Question them a little bit. Illusion doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The questions Who/What am I? And Who/What am I NOT? are some of life's most important ones.
All of the above, (when utilized as a carefully self-paced, daily spiritual practice) will gradually lead to a deep, full experience of yourself as the awareness in which all perceptible objects arise. Eventually you will know, by direct experience, your true identity, and all division will collapse.
good luck on your path! You're probably already heading in the right direction, since you're here.
Josh |
 |
|
|
AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 2:06:44 PM
|
The way that fourth stage was described was incredibly clear, and it isn't the first time coming across an attempt at a description, but for whatever reason, perhaps the context within which it was framed, makes it stand out much more.
Following up on that reply, there's also the unique matrix of obstructions to be considered, along with differences in ripeness. I very much doubt a sadhana could be entirely simplified to a numerical value along one dimension. Sure, some things can be more or less efficient, altering the time commitment, but on larger time scales I think it loses any meaning. |
|
|
|
lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 2:41:34 PM
|
| Good Lord thank you both and especially Mr. Anderson for giving me such an incredibly detailed and moving description of the stages of enlightenment. Perhaps time doesn't mean anything, but I know one thing, I'm light years away from anything mentioned above, but I still marvel at the beauty and possibilities it brings to certain people. I don't know much but I do know one thing, perhaps I have been lucky enough to be one of the called BUT I will never be one of the chosen. To that end I say: so what? It's almost as good to have heros as it is to be one. AND to think, I used to think all this was just fairy tales! HmHm. |
|
|
|
mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 3:18:43 PM
|
Aum - quote:
Following up on that reply, there's also the unique matrix of obstructions to be considered, along with differences in ripeness. I very much doubt a sadhana could be entirely simplified to a numerical value along one dimension.
I agree.
L - There are no chosen ones in Enlightenment, it's open to anyone who really wants it, and who is prepared to be really, deeply honest and reflective, looking beyond everything they've believed and been taught is true. Now so more than ever. The internet has made powerful and effective spiritual practices and exceptionally high quality guidance available to anyone, anywhere at the click of a button, without paying anything at all. Enlightenment is NOT some grand fanciful thing, for which only special people are chosen. It's something which anyone can systematically work towards, and achieve, in this lifetime, whilst simultaneously having a wonderful, joyous journey during which ever increasing freedom, peace and love become a day to day reality.
With self-paced, regular, AYP practices, at the very least, I'd think you find a happier and more ecstatic life 
My thoughts anyway! Good to hear from you Lmaher, and love and best wishes for you on your journey. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on May 17 2012 4:02:58 PM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 04:39:39 AM
|
The descriptions and timeline of each stage are described as a linear progression but that's not how I experience it. Instead, all of these stages slide into one another and can be floated between, sometimes they mix and all stages are present at once, sometimes only one is present and there can be rapidl movements through each stage and quite often jumping between levels.
You can seem to be violently tossed around in a storm and next floating serenely in infinite understanding. It's like the Tardis in Dr Who, you don't know what you will find or if you are going to get anywhere at all, everything can be strange, mysterious and very familiar at the same time.
I long gave up thinking I was at any of those stages, everything is impermanent and in motion, it is easier to learn to float with the waves than try and analyse their structure. No need to look for a beginning or an end, just go with the current moment, the rest will take care of itself. |
|
|
|
mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 07:56:25 AM
|
definitely agree with that Karl, certainly didn't mean that description as a linear progression, more of a guideline to certain recognizable experiences that occur at varying levels.
I'm flickering between various levels all the time as I mentioned. One minute, total liberating freedom, no self, and the transparency of all things is startlingly apparent, the next I'm pissed off because someone pushes in front of me in the subway. |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 10:05:04 AM
|
Greetings. Using the SRF formula, it takes 1,000,000 years for a soul to proceed through it's life experiences. One Kriya is equal to one solar year. Doing 20 Kriyas three times a day (20 Kriyas takes about one hour) equals 60 years per day, 365 x 60 equals 21900 years, 21900 x 45 equals approximately 1,000,000 years. Hence using this method it will take you 45 years. Very doable in one life time. However there are other factors to be considered.quote:
Originally posted by lmaher22
Would anyone like to take a shot at how many hours it takes to 'crack-through' whatever IT is in meditation we need to bust through? Rough guess would be nice. Auto of a Yogi said 3hr's a day but he never said for how long!
Thanks... And once again guess's welcome.
Bless all
L
|
Edited by - Mikananda on May 18 2012 10:56:27 AM |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 10:10:27 AM
|
| For it is a very strange thing, everyone has the ability to be awake, to understand, to love. Yet they continue to drift and sink in the ocean of suffering life after life. |
Edited by - Mikananda on May 18 2012 10:13:35 AM |
|
|
|
Heartsoflove
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 12:05:39 PM
|
| Thank you Mr. Anderson for THAT. HOL |
|
|
|
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 12:44:16 PM
|
| Mikananda, 20 kriyas takes about 10 minutes. I don't understand your numbers here. |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2012 : 1:40:35 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
Greetings. Using the SRF formula, it takes 1,000,000 years for a soul to proceed through it's life experiences. One Kriya is equal to one solar year. Doing 20 Kriyas three times a day (20 Kriyas takes about one hour) equals 60 years per day, 365 x 60 equals 21900 years, 21900 x 45 equals approximately 1,000,000 years. Hence using this method it will take you 45 years. Very doable in one life time. However there are other factors to be considered.quote:
Originally posted by lmaher22
Would anyone like to take a shot at how many hours it takes to 'crack-through' whatever IT is in meditation we need to bust through? Rough guess would be nice. Auto of a Yogi said 3hr's a day but he never said for how long!
Thanks... And once again guess's welcome.
Bless all
L
Hi lmaher, if you just read Autobiography of a Yogi (AOY), I recommend you to read Ennio Nimis experiences with organizations before joining one (it's in his online free ebook, also with the techniques).
Mikananda, according to Lahiri Mahasaya and Sri Yukteswar one Kriya Pranayama (Spinal Breathing) cycle equals one lunar year and thus 12 cycles are needed for one solar year (read Purana Purusha, by Ashoke Kumar Chaterjee, about his spiritual journals). It's important however to do 1 Maha Mudra cycle for each 12 Pranayama cycles, being the minimum 3 Maha Mudra cycles. According to Lahiri Mahasaya doing 50 Maha Mudra and 600 perfect Pranayama daily (divided in 3 sessions) you may need 6 years or more depending on how evoluted are you. However the higher kriyas quicken the process. So if your pranayama is not perfect (about 45 seconds per cycle, OM in the chakras), theoretically you need more.
But there are other factors, i.e. if you get Kechari Mudra (for that do Talavya Kriya and snipping of the frenulum), and if you meditate (very important after Spinal Breathing).
However don't pay too much attention to numbers.
All the best |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 09:06:26 AM
|
| Will Power you seem to know allot about these things. You speak like someone who has obtained them, very good. Imaher22 asked a question. I was trying to provide him with an answer. So how long are you saying it takes to crack-through? |
Edited by - Mikananda on May 19 2012 12:53:47 PM |
|
|
|
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 2:50:17 PM
|
Hi Mikananda, I posted what Lahiri Mahasaya said that it takes to crack-through, I am still on the way, with some scenary happening from time to time. And by the way, what I said about snipping of the frenulum was not said by Lahiri Mahasaya (he taught Talabya Kriya).
I think that it depends on the individual, and on how evoluted the person already is. I shared the Kriya techniques (with Mental Pranayama, which is like Deep Meditation, but jumping from one chakra to other) to a cousin of mine, and she in a couple of sessions reached the breathless state, opening momentarily the third eye and the chakras. That's not the end of the path, but a milestone, and I was astonished that it happened so early, when some of us needed some years just to have an spiritual experience. However she had practised for about 20 years some kind of Christian prayer or meditation as she was taught by her Christian group. So who knows how many solar years you have evolved, and how many kriyas you need.
Another note, from Sadhak Rules (published by the Aryya Mission Institution):
"The best sitting posture (asana) for the Kriya-practice is the one which helps in sitting comfortably for a long period of time . With the regular practice of pure pranayamas one can gradually attain pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and samadhi. 12 pure pranayamas lead to pratyahar, 144 such pranayamas lead to dharana, 1728 such pranayamas lead to dhyana and 20,736 such pranayamas lead to samadhi. All these can be understood by sitting at the feet of a real guru (Atmastha). The state of dhyana attained as a result of the practice of 1728 pranayamas, leads to the enjoyment of tranquil state after kriya which is a blissful state . After the practice of 20,736 pure pranayamas , the sadhaka feels to have become one with God (yuktavastha) i.e. being one with brahma.
In such a state the sadhaka is completely freed from ego and is not trapped by the disturbances caused by ego-trips. That is the time when the whole universe seems to be replete with soul (atmamaya)"
20,736 pure pranayamas, that's a long sitting session
Also, "According to Lahiri Mahasaya, 12 Omkãr Kriyas are equivalent to 144 Pranayamas", from Kriya Vigyan by Swami Nityananda Giri
, which is a very short book but I like it a lot. |
|
|
|
lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 3:49:03 PM
|
| Jesus H, all really great stuff, but far, far over my head. I think the only way I'll see anything sig. is when I bite the big one. But, so what, hell's bells I tried. |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2012 : 7:20:14 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by lmaher22
Would anyone like to take a shot at how many hours it takes to 'crack-through' whatever IT is in meditation we need to bust through?
That's like asking how many calories it takes to climb mount Everest.
There are too many unknown variables, and the question assumes a very complex subject is very simple, which it is not. |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 11:00:31 AM
|
So what you are saying is. Heck if if I know. Understandable. For who can say. Sivananda said if you practice perfect brahmacharya for 12 years you will instantly go into Samadhi. The out is also in the word "perfect." They will always say "But ah, you didn't do it perfectly." It is kind of like this. Suppose you are trying to pull out a nail in a board. You don't know how long the nail has been there or how deep the nail is in the board. For all you know, One more tug on the nail and it will come out. (trying to keep it simple  )quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
Hi Mikananda, I posted what Lahiri Mahasaya said that it takes to crack-through, I am still on the way, with some scenary happening from time to time. And by the way, what I said about snipping of the frenulum was not said by Lahiri Mahasaya (he taught Talabya Kriya).
I think that it depends on the individual, and on how evoluted the person already is. I shared the Kriya techniques (with Mental Pranayama, which is like Deep Meditation, but jumping from one chakra to other) to a cousin of mine, and she in a couple of sessions reached the breathless state, opening momentarily the third eye and the chakras. That's not the end of the path, but a milestone, and I was astonished that it happened so early, when some of us needed some years just to have an spiritual experience. However she had practised for about 20 years some kind of Christian prayer or meditation as she was taught by her Christian group. So who knows how many solar years you have evolved, and how many kriyas you need.
Another note, from Sadhak Rules (published by the Aryya Mission Institution):
"The best sitting posture (asana) for the Kriya-practice is the one which helps in sitting comfortably for a long period of time . With the regular practice of pure pranayamas one can gradually attain pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and samadhi. 12 pure pranayamas lead to pratyahar, 144 such pranayamas lead to dharana, 1728 such pranayamas lead to dhyana and 20,736 such pranayamas lead to samadhi. All these can be understood by sitting at the feet of a real guru (Atmastha). The state of dhyana attained as a result of the practice of 1728 pranayamas, leads to the enjoyment of tranquil state after kriya which is a blissful state . After the practice of 20,736 pure pranayamas , the sadhaka feels to have become one with God (yuktavastha) i.e. being one with brahma.
In such a state the sadhaka is completely freed from ego and is not trapped by the disturbances caused by ego-trips. That is the time when the whole universe seems to be replete with soul (atmamaya)"
20,736 pure pranayamas, that's a long sitting session
Also, "According to Lahiri Mahasaya, 12 Omkãr Kriyas are equivalent to 144 Pranayamas", from Kriya Vigyan by Swami Nityananda Giri
, which is a very short book but I like it a lot.
|
Edited by - Mikananda on May 20 2012 11:20:49 AM |
|
|
|
lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2012 : 10:32:14 PM
|
| I guess it's the old 'when will I know I'm in love, mommy'. You'll know it when you know. Might not be all that great anyway; just make you less of a pain in the ass to humanity. |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 11:55:11 AM
|
Let us say you want to know how many licks and how long it takes to get to the center of a lollipop. They tell you well it depends on the size of the lick, how often you lick it, and the way you lick it. However if you take one bite you will instantly be there.quote:
Originally posted by lmaher22
I guess it's the old 'when will I know I'm in love, mommy'. You'll know it when you know. Might not be all that great anyway; just make you less of a pain in the ass to humanity.
|
Edited by - Mikananda on May 21 2012 12:38:56 PM |
|
|
|
lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 3:03:22 PM
|
| Come on, Mike. I can't out-think you. You know that! |
|
|
|
goinghome
Sweden
6 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 7:09:06 PM
|
It will not take many hours to reach emptieness. The question is simple and is better for the answerer than the questioner...
If you start now you might be there tomorrow. If you start tomorrow you might make it today...
Why bother of the time when there is no reaching. We are allready it, there and allways were...
I am fine where I am watching the colors and the shapes. It is all just releasing and growing deeper inside us.
You cannot lose what you always had... :) |
|
|
|
mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 8:47:02 PM
|
Loved the lollipop analogy! I've spoken here in the past regarding this eternal question, and, because of the many decades of my practices, I believe I can shed a bit of light into this murky pool. Firstly, I'd like to throw out all estimates ever made by any Indian guru, period, even my own, the late Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, who told us, 35 years ago, that we'd "be there" (he was speaking of the permanent establishment of the Witness, which he called 'Cosmic Consciousness') in 5 or 10 years if we continued our practices as he'd taught us, which was twice daily routine of 10 minutes asanas, 5 minutes alternate nostril pranayama and 20 minutes deep meditation. This was before we learned the siddhis, which we assumed would speed things up quite a bit. So, I suppose the accepted time frame might have been 3-7 years for devoted regular practitioners who also made several retreats each year, at least one of them of 2 or more weeks, and this all after we'd spent 6 months or more in retreat with Maharishi, so... off we went to 'become enlightened'! Maharishi, however (and his cohorts), despite their own advanced states of consciousness and immense wisdom and training, never quite understood the Western culture or lifestyle--how we live here in the real world with jobs, families and worldly responsibilities. I began my practice in 1970, at the age of 18, 42 years ago. I spent 2 full years in ashram, 1974-1976, deep in study and advanced practices, and three more years after that spending each summer, one or two months, in ashram learning further advanced practices. I was married to my high school sweetheart and lived a life devoted to her. I spent 35 years as a Special Education teacher, working with emotionally disturbed and mentally ill adolescents, which I considered my perfect dharma, enjoying every moment of it. I was always regular in my home practices, raised two wonderful children who I adore. In short, it would appear that I lived a life nearly perfectly structured for quick ascendency through the stages of Awakening. IT TAKES TIME. Lots of time, lots of devotion, loads of patience, and lifelong learning. About 12 years ago, following a major heart attack and triple by-pass surgery, (so 30 years into my practice) I began to have what Mr. Anderson called "Initial awakening (Rise of the Witness)" on a regular basis. This I was prepared for, and recognized the initial symptoms of, quickly--witnessing sleep--because Maharishi had spoken of that a lot. When you witness sleep, that is pretty unmistakable. Witnessing dreams is even more obvious, but seems to come later--at least it did in my case. Seven years ago, during a period of time during which my late wife was battling cancer, hospitalized for surgery and then undergoing many rounds of radiation and chemotherapy, I became, by necessity, totally celibate, and about three months into that, I had a totally spontaneous kundalini awakening, which I was decidedly NOT at all prepared for, because Maharishi had never, at least in my experience, ever spoken about that. However, perhaps because of my, by that time, 37 years of deep meditation and 35 years of pranayama, this was not at all a difficult or uneasy experience. I would not call it gentle or smooth, but it had none of the unease, imbalance, or fear that many people report. At the time, I didn't even have a name for what was happening to me, but I found out pretty quickly and went with the flow. I eventually got used to that trip after a few months, and after my wife recovered a bit, I resumed sexual activity and the extreme energy flow and perceptual changes abated somewhat, although never totally went away. Since that time, Life has continued to unfold and bring more of itself to itself...
What I'm trying to get at here is this is not quick, or, maybe it's as quick as can be with the proper combination of practices, techniques, lifestyle choices, relationships, career choices, etc., BUT, even so, that's a relative term. Perhaps it's quick meaning 40 years as opposed to 40 lifetimes...? But I don't imagine it'll be 4 months or 4 years or 14 years or 24 years. For most people on a life-long spiritual journey (and, after all, that's all there really is to do in life...), it will take that life, and perhaps many more leading up to this one and perhaps more following, to pay off one's karmic debts and accumulate sufficient devotion, wisdom and silence to see life as it actually is. Until then, enjoy the scenery but don't become attached to it, because it WILL constantly change!
Namaste,
Michael |
|
|
|
Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2012 : 11:40:55 PM
|
Wonderful post, mikkiji. This is incredibly encouraging for someone like me, who has only been on the path of daily spiritual practice for about 2 years.
Thank you for sharing your experience.  |
|
|
|
Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2012 : 09:29:35 AM
|
Yes thank you for your share Mikkiji. It is nice to hear from someone who has his feet on the ground. For me after many years, I came to realize that I am here because I want be here. Deep inside me I find many unfulfilled desires. I like the scenery. I like licking the lollipop. For light has come into the world, but because I love the darkness I turn my face away  . |
Edited by - Mikananda on May 22 2012 09:46:42 AM |
|
|
|
karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2012 : 12:33:06 PM
|
| Wish you would stop going on about lollipops I could eat one right about now. |
|
|
|
goinghome
Sweden
6 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2012 : 5:59:43 PM
|
Times are changing. Today is a nice day for awakening. We continue to grow and take our fellow travelers with us on our path. We cannot go alone... I have not lived a long life but do not remember last week. I don't really need memory. Images flashing by. This moment is godsent! Meditation is part of life... My changing view.
I have heard of TM meditation. But the world needs change. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
breaking through
